Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

proved, to be sure, but if disproved, then mechanism is refuted, and that has not yet been done too! Bruno > > -Original Message- > From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> > To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> > Sent: Sat, May 5, 2018

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

y had a Brain, it would be like Boltzmanns. -Original Message- From: Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> To: everything-list <everything-list@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sat, May 5, 2018 4:23 am Subject: Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator On 4 May 2018, at 01:26, Quent

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 4 May 2018, at 01:26, Quentin Anciaux wrote: > > Again the perfect example of I lost so I dodge… Exactly. John Clark could not have provided a better illustration, indeed. I consider a disagreement as a courtesy to pursue a conversation. I consider mockery, insult

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 7:26 PM, Quentin Anciaux wrote: ​> ​ > Again the perfect example of I lost so I dodge... > After Bruno trots out the exact same argument he has 42 times before over the last decade and I have pointed out 42 times exactly precisely why his argument is

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

Again the perfect example of I lost so I dodge... Le jeu. 3 mai 2018 21:36, John Clark a écrit : > > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > ​>> ​ >>> You say the diary solves the referent issue because its clear the man in >>> Helsinki

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:01 PM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​>> ​ >> You say the diary solves the referent issue because its clear the man in >> Helsinki wrote it and he wrote it yesterday, but in one variation of the >> thought experiment there is nobody in Helsinki today, there are

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 1 May 2018, at 20:44, Brent Meeker wrote: > > > > On 5/1/2018 8:52 AM, John Clark wrote: >> >> >> On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:10 PM, Brent Meeker > > wrote: >> >> ​> ​ Yes that's hard, perhaps meaningless,

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 30 Apr 2018, at 18:09, John Clark wrote: > > You say the diary solves the referent issue because its clear the man in > Helsinki wrote it and he wrote it yesterday, but in one variation of the > thought experiment there is nobody in Helsinki today, there are people

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 5/1/2018 8:52 AM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:10 PM, Brent Meeker > wrote: ​> ​ /Yes that's hard, perhaps meaningless, question to answer (and I don't think it's the question Bruno wants answered). / ​

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 10:10 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: ​> ​ > *Yes that's hard, perhaps meaningless, question to answer (and I don't > think it's the question Bruno wants answered). * > ​ Then its not an experiment, its not a thought experiment, its not even a question its

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 4/30/2018 6:10 PM, John Clark wrote: On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Brent Meeker >wrote: ​>/​/ /That's like saying that a man who took a plane from Helsinki to Moscow who has a diary can't have been written by "the Helsinki

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 2:56 PM, Brent Meeker wrote: ​>* ​* > *That's like saying that a man who took a plane from Helsinki to Moscow > who has a diary can't have been written by "the Helsinki man" because he's > no longer in Helsinki.* > ​No, its like saying if a man took

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 4/30/2018 9:09 AM, John Clark wrote: You say the diary solves the referent issue because its clear the man in Helsinki wrote it and he wrote it yesterday, but in one variation of the thought experiment there is nobody in Helsinki today, there are people in Moscow and Washington who

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Mon, Apr 30, 2018 at 6:00 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > ​> ​ > > *Sometimes you just go silent on the topic and come back to it​ ​months > later. This also happened with other topics before, I did not forget, even > though I didn't comment.* > Is that something I'm

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 23 April 2018 at 16:14, John Clark wrote: > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >> > The above is about how Bruno keeps answering your questions, and then >> > you either pretend that he didn't > > > Like the time just a few

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 27 Apr 2018, at 21:56, John Clark wrote: > > > On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​That step is very simple, > > ​Yes, simple as in stupid.​ > > ​> ​accessible by very young people

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 03:56:46PM -0400, John Clark wrote: > > Why don't we make it easy on ourselves and give numbers to our old ideas > that we sent to the list years ago? That way you could for example say > "argument #11392" and I could just say "counter-argument #11393". Think of > all the

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Fri, Apr 27, 2018 at 11:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > ​> ​ > *That step is very simple,* > ​Yes, simple as in stupid.​ ​>* ​* > *accessible by very young people without any knowledge* Because very young people with no knowledge never stopped to think exactly what

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 26 Apr 2018, at 19:53, John Clark wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Bruno Marchal > wrote: > > ​> ​If you have an argument against step 3 just show it. > > ​FOR GODS SAKE You want to go back

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Thursday, April 26, 2018 at 3:09:03 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 22 Apr 2018, at 18:04, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > With a T a theory that admits diagonalization and for Bew(x) a formula > with a free x,.we have > > ├_T S ↔ Bew(gn(S)). > > The Löb

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Thu, Apr 26, 2018 at 4:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: ​> *​* > *If you have an argument against step 3 just show it.* > ​*FOR GODS SAKE * You want to go back years to day one when this entire idiotic conversation started and rehash it all over again, but I'd rather

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 23 Apr 2018, at 16:14, John Clark wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > > The above is about how Bruno keeps answering your questions, and then you > > either pretend that he

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 19:28, John Clark wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > >> How can I determine if that particular Turing Machine is doing something > >> fundamentally

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 18:04, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > With a T a theory that admits diagonalization and for Bew(x) a formula with a > free x,.we have > > ├_T S ↔ Bew(gn(S)). > > The Löb theorem involves the diagonalization in T D(x,y) such that for any

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > *The above is about how Bruno keeps answering your questions, and then > you either pretend that he didn't* Like the time just a few days ago when Bruno said all my objections were already answered in a post that

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 22 April 2018 at 19:06, John Clark wrote: > On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 3:21 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: >>> >>> >> Maybe I've got my Latin wrong, please explain to me again what "ad >>> >> hominem" means. >> >> >> > It means to use personal attacks

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 12:21 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > >> How can I determine if that particular Turing Machine is doing >> something fundamentally different from what every other Turing Machine is >> doing? > > > >* I would say that it is a machine that proves

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sun, Apr 22, 2018 at 3:21 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> Maybe I've got my Latin wrong, please explain to me again what "ad >> hominem" means. > > > > *It means to use personal attacks against the author of an argument > instead of addressing the substance of the

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

With a T a theory that admits diagonalization and for Bew(x) a formula with a free x,.we have ├_T S ↔ Bew(gn(S)). The Löb theorem involves the diagonalization in T D(x,y) such that for any D(x,y) = k is the Gödel number diag(x) = k and y = k. This corresponds I think to the φ_u(x,y). It is

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 09:21, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 22 April 2018 at 01:47, John Clark wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Telmo Menezes >> wrote: >> >>> >>> As Russell said, an approximation of the

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 06:21, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 08:08:50PM -0400, John Clark wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Russell Standish >> wrote: >> >> ​> ​ >>> *Yes, of course a Loebian machine is a type of Turing

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 02:08, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > ​> ​Yes, of course a Loebian machine is a type of Turing machine. > > How can I determine if that

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 01:47, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > ​> ​As​ ​​R​ussell said, an approximation of the Löbian machine can probably > be > derived from

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 00:56, John Clark wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:10 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > > > Turing machines don’t need infinite tape, they need sufficient tape,​ if > > you start to run out

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 22 Apr 2018, at 00:15, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 11:00:32AM -0400, John Clark wrote: >>> *I suspect he does know how to write a "Loebian machine" in Lisp or​ >>> ​Prolog* >> >> >> If so then a "Loebian machine" is just a type of Turing

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 21 Apr 2018, at 10:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > On 20 April 2018 at 19:04, John Clark wrote: >> I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: >> >> "Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming >>

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 21 Apr 2018, at 09:21, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 01:04:30PM -0400, John Clark wrote: >> I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: >> >> "*Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming >>

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 19:04, John Clark wrote: > > I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: > > "Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming > language c++” > > C++ is Turing complete but is not a Turing machine because

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 20 Apr 2018, at 00:38, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 07:11:33PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> Somewhere: (and I copy my answer, as some people asked me this in this list >> too). >> >> >>> >>> What are Lobian numbers? Can you give a

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 22 April 2018 at 01:47, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >> >> > >> As Russell said, an approximation of the Löbian machine can probably be >> derived from Bruno's post in Prolog. > > > Then a "Löbian

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 08:08:50PM -0400, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Russell Standish > wrote: > > ​> ​ > > *Yes, of course a Loebian machine is a type of Turing machine.* > > > How can I determine if that particular Turing Machine is doing

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 6:15 PM, Russell Standish wrote: ​> ​ > *Yes, of course a Loebian machine is a type of Turing machine.* How can I determine if that particular Turing Machine is doing something fundamentally different from what every other Turing Machine is doing?

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:27 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > ​> ​ > > *As​ ​​R​ussell said, an approximation of the Löbian machine can probably > be derived from Bruno's post in Prolog.* Then a ​"​ Löbian machine ​"​ is just a particular Turing Machine and there is nothing

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 5:10 PM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > Turing machines don’t need infinite tape, they need sufficient tape, >> ​ >> if you start to run out of tape then add more, > > > *​> ​And for the general case there will be instances where you always > need more.*

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 11:00:32AM -0400, John Clark wrote: > > *I suspect he does know how to write a "Loebian machine" in Lisp or​ > > ​Prolog* > > > If so then a "Loebian machine" is just a type of Turing Machine and Bruno > has not discovered anything fundamental that Turing didn't know

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

[I messed up and sent the unfinished email. Here's the rest...] On 21 April 2018 at 23:10, Telmo Menezes wrote: > On 21 April 2018 at 16:44, John Clark wrote: >> On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes >> wrote: >>

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 21 April 2018 at 16:44, John Clark wrote: > On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes > wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> And Turing explained exactly precisely how to make one of his machines in >>> the real physical world >> >> >> > >> Nope. Turing

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 3:21 AM, Russell Standish wrote: > ​>>​ >> C++ is Turing complete but is not a Turing machine because machines are >> physical objects made of atoms but C++ is not nor is any language. > > > *​> ​Nor is a Turing machine for that matter.* ​ This

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Sat, Apr 21, 2018 at 4:10 AM, Telmo Menezes wrote: > >> ​>​ >> And Turing explained exactly precisely how to make one of his machines in >> the real physical world > > > *​> ​Nope. Turing machines have infinite tapes.* Nope. Turing machines don’t need infinite tape,

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On 20 April 2018 at 19:04, John Clark wrote: > I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: > > "Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming > language c++” > > C++ is Turing complete but is not a Turing machine because machines

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Fri, Apr 20, 2018 at 01:04:30PM -0400, John Clark wrote: > I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: > > "*Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming > language c++*” > > C++ is Turing complete but is not a Turing machine because machines are >

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

I never got past the first line of Bruno’s post because he said: "*Consider any Turing universal machinery, for example the programming language c++*” C++ is Turing complete but is not a Turing machine because machines are physical objects made of atoms but C++ is not nor is any language. As for

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

On Wed, Apr 18, 2018 at 07:11:33PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: > Somewhere: (and I copy my answer, as some people asked me this in this list > too). > > > > > > What are Lobian numbers? Can you give a reference? I know little bit about > > Godel’s work. > > > Consider any Turing universal

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

> On 19 Apr 2018, at 02:57, Lawrence Crowell > wrote: > > I will try to get back to this with comments, but right now I am too tired > out. OK. You need to rest, we have all time, Bruno > > LC > > On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 12:11:35 PM UTC-5,

Re: What is a Löbian machine/number/combinator

I will try to get back to this with comments, but right now I am too tired out. LC On Wednesday, April 18, 2018 at 12:11:35 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > Somewhere: (and I copy my answer, as some people asked me this in this > list too). > > > > What are Lobian numbers? Can you give a