Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread Bruno Marchal 


On 17 Oct 2013, at 11:46, Stephen Lin wrote:

A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a  
Panopticon is the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether  
you're on the inside looking out or the outside looking in."


Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that  
quantum physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local  
determinism, and relativity seems to imply that non-local  
determinism, if it exists, can never be proven without violating  
causality.


I don't think QM allows non_determinism, nor non_locality. Only  
Copenhagen QM does that, but it does not make sense.




Very much a Panopticon: there's plausibly anyone watching and also  
plausibly everyone watching, and no way of finding out which.


Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if,  
in the process of watching, you're actually the one being watched  
instead :)


So the question you raised above is solved. But I am not sure that  
symmetry entails what you seem to see. What is an observer? If you  
assume it is a sort of machine, QM has to be derived from simpler  
principle.


Bruno




-Stephen

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread LizR 
It gets better...

On 18 October 2013 14:01, freqflyer07281972 wrote:

> Whoa, dude... you just blew my mind!
>
> I love this list!
>
>
> On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:46:14 AM UTC-4, Stephen Lin wrote:
>
>> A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is
>> the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside
>> looking out or the outside looking in."
>>
>> Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that
>> quantum physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism,
>> and relativity seems to imply that non-local determinism, if it exists, can
>> never be proven without violating causality. Very much a Panopticon:
>> there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly everyone watching, and
>> no way of finding out which.
>>
>> Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in
>> the process of watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)
>>
>> -Stephen
>>
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Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread freqflyer07281972 
Whoa, dude... you just blew my mind! 

I love this list!

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:46:14 AM UTC-4, Stephen Lin wrote:
>
> A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is 
> the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside 
> looking out or the outside looking in."
>
> Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that 
> quantum physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism, 
> and relativity seems to imply that non-local determinism, if it exists, can 
> never be proven without violating causality. Very much a Panopticon: 
> there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly everyone watching, and 
> no way of finding out which.
>
> Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in 
> the process of watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)
>
> -Stephen
>  

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Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread meekerdb 

On 10/17/2013 2:46 AM, Stephen Lin wrote:
A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is the easy part; 
the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside looking out or the outside 
looking in."


I thought the Panopticon was conceived as a way that everyone could be watched - an 
concept since realized by the NSA.


Brent



Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that quantum physics 
allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism, and relativity seems to imply 
that non-local determinism, if it exists, can never be proven without violating 
causality. Very much a Panopticon: there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly 
everyone watching, and no way of finding out which.


Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in the process of 
watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)


-Stephen
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Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread Stephen Lin 
Oops, I meant plausibly "no one" watching :) I don't know how I slipped
that one up!


On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 2:46 AM, Stephen Lin  wrote:

> A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is
> the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside
> looking out or the outside looking in."
>
> Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that
> quantum physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism,
> and relativity seems to imply that non-local determinism, if it exists, can
> never be proven without violating causality. Very much a Panopticon:
> there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly everyone watching, and
> no way of finding out which.
>
> Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in
> the process of watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)
>
> -Stephen
>

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Re: The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread Craig Weinberg 
To make matters worse, I think that it is a nesting panopticon. As 
individuals we are watching others watch us. As social participants we are 
part of society's watching of individuals. As members of human 
civilization, we are a spectator of the collective voyeurism of biology, 
chemistry, and physics, who are not completely privy to our watching, as we 
are not privy to what our unconscious presence knows about us. It's all 
awareness that is masked and masked again, with each mask susceptible to 
occasional leakage or translucence. 

Thanks,
Craig

On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:46:14 AM UTC-4, Stephen Lin wrote:
>
> A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is 
> the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside 
> looking out or the outside looking in."
>
> Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that 
> quantum physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism, 
> and relativity seems to imply that non-local determinism, if it exists, can 
> never be proven without violating causality. Very much a Panopticon: 
> there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly everyone watching, and 
> no way of finding out which.
>
> Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in 
> the process of watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)
>
> -Stephen
>  

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The Panopticon: QM and Relativity

2013-10-17 Thread Stephen Lin 
A quote I got somewhere: "Understanding that the world is a Panopticon is
the easy part; the hard part is figuring out whether you're on the inside
looking out or the outside looking in."

Anyone have any thoughts? :) Personally, I find it interesting that quantum
physics allows _either_ non-determinism or non-local determinism, and
relativity seems to imply that non-local determinism, if it exists, can
never be proven without violating causality. Very much a Panopticon:
there's plausibly anyone watching and also plausibly everyone watching, and
no way of finding out which.

Furthermore, if physics is always symmetric, then you can't tell if, in the
process of watching, you're actually the one being watched instead :)

-Stephen

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