[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
On Mar 21, 2005, at 10:19 PM, akasha_108 wrote: Yes, I am having similar difficulty. Particularly when Tom describes it as Consciousness experiencing Consciousness. Vaj writes: Yeah. Mahat or Infinite Mind is the witnesser. Tom T: Patanjali chapter 4 Enlightenment (Alistair Shearer translation) #18 But the mind itself is always experienced because it is witnessed by the unchanging Self. #19 The mind does not shine by its own light. It too is an object, illumined by the Self. #20 Not being self-luminous, the mind cannot be aware of its object and itself at the same time. #21 Nor is the mind illumined by another more subtle mind, for that would imply the absurdity of an infinite series of minds, and the resulting confusion of memories. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Tom T comments interspersed Tom T Snipped: The understanding this experience is wholeness is a major criteria of the reality of Brahman. Inside this wholeness resides all creation. Vaj writes: I listened to her--I assume it's the same women--she described the dawning of the state (Rick will remember if she was there when I was)--and I got then that she was describing CC. From my perspective, infinite mind is mahat. Tom T responds: Well I can't remember and we do have about 6 awake ladies present so I am not sure which was present when you called in. Vaj continues: I did have the sense that she was wakeful (of course it would be impossible for me to say whether that was permanent of not). Tom T: Yes Vaj writes: I'm not sure why everyone is all the sudden talking of UC/BC. I'm just not getting that. Tom T : Why not talk about it if it is happening? After all it has only been 35 years or so for most of the folks in FF. Just because it doesn't fit your criteria does not mean that it is not happening big time in this little town. Vaj: Knowing will always presume a Knower and some medium in between. But this could be a semantic misunderstanding on my part. Tom T: When the Knowing is Known by the ultimate Knower there is no where left to go. This is the one and only Knower knowing its creation through its own Self. From the totality of creation to point value it is all Knower and Knower can know through the totality and the point value simutaneously. All the ocean in a drop. Same. Vah I think witnessing may be a bad term in this case and that's the sticker. Lastly, what disturbs me is that it doesn't all appear new. It's a nice and convincing rearrangement of all the old TM buzzwords. There's little new. I expect the description to be as fresh and new as anything could be. But it's presented in the jargon and conditioned wording of TM. Why is it not fresh and new? Tom T: Why reinvent a vocabulary when we have a common one that we all know and we all have the same definition for all the words so there is no misunderstanding. The key word here is EXPECT. Well it ain't what you expect it is, but what it is. In person it is always fresh and new. It is the ever present moment moving on and being entirely new with each word. Vaj writes: I can feel whole or wholeness but it does not seem like Grand Unification to me (to use TM jargon). Does *she* feel she is in BC? Or do others feel she is in BC? I did find her very convincing and right on. Tom T: Since you missed her unfolding I can only synopsize it by saying she had been unfolding for months and the night you tuned in was after she had the full understanding of what had transpired. She is very aware of the silence that is underneath every thing and also the nothing that seems to appear under that. She also has had the transformation of understanding that this apparent nothingness is also at the same time everything and I think is just a tad beyond what you have been quoting from scripture. That is also my experience just so there is no confusion. The apparent emptiness of nothing beyond all the steps actually is ultimately know to be everything. Again, that is my experience. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Practical effects of enlightenment
Tom Traynor wrote: Once this lady got the Understanding then it all fell into place and she saw it all as the perfection and she now rests in absolute certainty while still living the paradox of a typical turbulent life in FF. That is the underlying paradox, nothing in life has changed and everything has changed. Patrick Gillam:writes If nothing changes in daily life, what's the point of pursuing enlightenment? Is it merely that the daily mishegaas goes on, but one's response to it changes? It was a big part of the TM pitch that higher consciousness improves daily life. I'd like to test that conclusion against some real-life stories of people who've awakened. Tom T clarifies: The good news is that everything has changed in how you perceive and handle the challenges of day to day life. There is almost nothing that can overcome the feeling of certainty that things are as they are and have always been so. Even in the most disastrous events in personal life that certainty can not be overcome for very long at all. Bottom line is that stuff still happens but it no longer sticks or really matters. It is kind of like being Teflon coated, the same old stuff hits the fan and you are untouched. So nothing changes, stuff hits the fan. Everything changes, and it doesn't touch or harm you. Makes for an easy life in that you now see it for what it is and that is OK. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Fresh comments below: Tom Traynor wrote: [Brahman consciousness] is not an experience, it is an understanding that needs no Master. The understanding is complete in an of itself. No Master needed as the knowledge in the understanding is complete in and of itself. Absolute self-verification which is the hallmark of this understanding, as it is beyond experience. Patrick Gilliam Writes: Tom, I understood the awakening you describe to be disorienting, necessitating a mahavakya or confirmation from a master. Are you saying (a) Brahman never requires a master's confirmation, (b) Brahmin only requires a master's confirmation sometimes, or (c) some other thing? Tom T again: Hanging around awake people seems to help get the understanding cooking but bottom line they will get it by themselves anyway. One lady in our group described it as follows: I was infinite mind and I was looking at my finite mind and I knew that my finite mind was never going to understand what had happened in a million years. That is the paradox that is the hallmark of this understanding. Nothing has changed and yet everything has changed. It is a one degree shift but it is now an understanding from the vantage point of Self understanding Self and little self is still where it has always been wondering What Happened?. Having a Master around is going to help this understanding flower easier but I don't view it as absolutely essential. On the other hand for some that may be the only way it is going to happen. There are no hard rules in a world of 6 billion possibilities. Go find some awake people and hang out with them and see what happens. Tom To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Much more comments below: Tom T I was infinite mind and I was looking at my finite mind and I knew that my finite mind was never going to understand what had happened in a million years. That is the paradox that is the hallmark of this understanding. Nothing has changed and yet everything has changed. Vaj Perfect description of turiyatita/CC ! crukstrom wrote: When do they become one? Vaj: In the Vedantic model, in Brahmi chetana. Tom T: It appears we have a slight communication problem so I will try and make myself clearer. In my comment above when the lady commented on her experience of Infinite Mind, she never said she witnessed that she was Infinite mind. To my understanding witnessing is the primary means of knowing one is in CC. One witnesses all things happening from an undisturbed state. She did not say she witnessed, she said quite clearly and maybe I didn't make it clear that she knew she was infinite mind. Knowing is not witnessing. Knowing is having them one in her understanding which seems to fulfill your definition of Brahman above. She was Infinite mind in which finite mind also existed as part of her wholeness both being available and both making up the entire wholeness she is. The understanding this experience is wholeness is a major criteria of the reality of Brahman. Inside this wholeness resides all creation. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
More Tom T comments on Stealth Sutra at the bottom: Tom T: The true reason for the sutras was to wake you up. The levitation gig was to give the ego a reason to continue the practice long enough to finish the wake up process, which was built into the practice.). Vaj: I understand what you are saying. It would be helpful to know the number of the post to specifically comment on that one. Understand though, that samkhya and the yoga-sutras--and awakening a la the yoga-sutra is a dualistic awakening. That is, it deals with CC/turiyatita. That's not to say jumping into any other state couldn't happen, of course anything is *possible*. It's just that the intent of the yoga-sutra, of which the TM-Sidhi program represents a watered down version, is to provide a samkhya-style realization: turiyatita. In effect you are saying MMY has distorted the tradition to fool us using our ahamkara/egos as carrots? Tom T: Stealth Sutra details: On the other hand if we look at the last and final sutra in chapter 3 (Expansion) we arrive at sutra 52 which states From Sanyama on moments and their succession, the finest discriminative knowledge is born. Sutra 53. This enables us to distinguish between two objects that are to all appearances identical. Sutra 54: Knowledge born of the finest discrimination takes us to the farthest shore. Sutra 55: And when the translucent intellect is as pure as the Self, there is Enlightenment. Look at 52 through 55 and this is the only place it says that any sutra produces the Big E. All the other sutras are for practice and for the sidhi disclosed. The last sutra says Big E is the result of this sutra 52. Actually sutra 52 was installed at the time we all learned the sidhis. We were beat over the head with the necessity to do a certain number of reps in a bound amount of time. MMY gave you sutra 52 to practice without telling you so. There is a part of every mind that can track time no matter what and if you don't think so remember all the time you ended your meditation at exactly 20 mins. The instruction to do a finite number of reps in a certain time while you were doing the sidhi prescribed was to do #52 in total innocence. So you have been doing this practice as prescribed by MMY with out knowing it. Best way to hide something is right under your nose in plain sight. Enjoy PS: This is not experienced as a watered down version of the Big E so I would like to know if that is your personal experience or from some text and if the latter can you quote chapter and verse. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Tom T comments interspersed Akasha 108 writes: Mind / body / reflections that I know and love that allude to knowing infinite mind, though discrete and the opposite of showy, do exhibit some amazing capabilities at times that would be consistent with being infinite mind. Can this lady, or perhaps your self, give examples of how being infinite mind manifested in their/your lives in some (awesomely) special knowledge, insight or coordination, apparent or communicatable to others? Tom T: You know the damn thing is so flippin ordinary that it doesn't seem anything other than who and what you are. In her case she was sharing an incident about one of her children and she didn't need to finish, as I knew the entire story. I was able to tell her the ending she didn't know, and I shared with her an insight into a next step that she was unaware needed to happen. If that qualifies maybe that is the best I can do. Akasha 108 writes: If the response is along the lines that the knowledge of being infinite mind is self-revealing, self-sufficient and never explainable to mere finite minds, then I guess thats what it is. Though some might wonder, in some cases, if delusion is involved -- like the earlier discussion of when can one know if the claim of god talked to me is valid. A danger could be that some might make such claims falsely and delude others. The TMO community has certainly seen such charlatans over the years. Tom T; What seems to be apparent is that the actual experiences had been unfolding for at least a year and yet there was no complete understanding. The last step was to be around some awake people and then the Understanding was complete. Once this lady got the Understanding then it all fell into place and she saw it all as the perfection and she now rests in absolute certainty while still living the paradox of a typical turbulent life in FF. That is the underlying paradox, nothing in life has changed and everything has changed. Akash 108: It would seem that if one is infinite mind, the cosmic computer as some refer to it, there could be some practical manifestions of that. Not cheap parlor tricks, but some reflection of infinite mind in day to day life. I have seen it in action in some. So I know it can be done. Any examples from this lady? Tom T: At the present time I have nothing to report but I will ask and get back in the next week or so. Thanks for your genuine interest. I wish I had better answers. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Vaj writes: A View--your inner darshana, your POV shouldn't be thought of as a meditational experience. It is your new horizon, your new world, your cosmos and cosmology. It sounds to me as if you are describing CC, not BC/UC. While I do know that there is a state without need of verification, what my teacher has explained is that you gain some certainty of what the darshana of unity is by an introduction into that state. Once you get it there is a further process that goes on until you reach the base (of reality). It seems to me, I am guessing, this is latest fashion as forms of neo-advaita become more widespread. People hear descriptions and slowly convince themselves. Perhaps I'm wrong, maybe there are living Buddhas living in Fairfield. But I have seen this before, this is not new to me, people claiming CC, GC or UC/BC or beyond. I've been around. Again I think what you are describing is having gained certainty as to the View, not ultimate realization. Tom T: I can only respond with all of the various things I have posted on this subject. You are free to hold your POV and I am free to experience my understandings. My writings are from my experience. That much I am sure and that is the only way I know how to respond. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: I would like to try an experiment in co
Tom T writes: One other book you might find interesting is the bio of Wayne Liquorman. You can find him on the web. He was an extreme example of name and form. He was a devotee of Ramesh Balsekar. Ramesh would spend about one month a year in the US giving darshan to anyone who wanted to attend his Satsangs. Every morning Satsang Wayne would arrive sober and be attentive and really into the discourse of his master. When he would arrive in the evening for the evening Satsang he was drunk. He would ask Ramesh to take away his addiction and Ramesh would tell him that it would end when it did and it was not his to take away. Wayne would leave morning Satsang and pledge he would return sober and he wouldn't. One day after he had the notice from the Doctors that if he didn't quit his liver and other internal functions would quit and so would he. Somehow he just lost the taste and the desire. It is a good story and is about a guy who now gives very effective Satsang himself. Nothing like hearing how to do it from a dude who has done it and is also now an awake guy. Tom To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Yahoo is spying on you!
If you belong to any YAHOO GROUPS or use Yahoo in any other ways, you may want to opt out of this. Yahoo is now using something called Web Beacons to track Yahoo Group users around the net and see what you're doing and where you are going - similar to cookies. Yahoo is recording every website and every group you visit. If you would like to opt out of their tracking system, here's how to do it: 1 Go to http://privacy.yahoo.com/privacy 2 In the column on the left side, under the title of Special Topics, click cookies. 3 At the bottom of this new page you will see a link that says Click here. Click that. 4 On that new page click the phrase web beacon. That will bring you to a paragraph entitled Outside the Yahoo Network. 5 In this section you'll see a little click here to opt out link. Click it. Then STOP. What would normally be a confirmation button on the next page will opt you back in. To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: I would like to try an experiment in co
From my side the smoking, drinking and drugging were my ways of acting out my beliefs. In other words the behavior was the indication of a deeper problem. I spent 12 years in a Big Kids ALANON group where many of the beliefs that caused the behavior came to light. Once the belief was out in the open it became apparent why the behavior was occurring and how I could change the belief system operating. Just one way of going out through the bottom of the addictive process. I also found the book When Society becomes an Addict by Ann Marie Schief to be an excellent source book on how our entire society reinforces addictive behavior. Also, The Work of Byron Katie (thework.com) is very helpful once the belief system causing the behavior is smoked out of hiding (pun intended). In reading her classic Loving What Is it became apparent to me that I still have many belief systems operating that are just subtle addictions and really don't serve me any better than my gross addictions. The best to you in this quest. It is a hard road and it can grind your soul. One final thought is that your TM practice may have lead you into The Dark Night of the Soul as found by St John of the Cross. That is a hard place to be and again the only way out of that is through the bottom. If you wish we can continue this discussion off line. Tom T To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Peter Sutphen writes: Interesting. The subject-object dynamics of the senses don't seem to remain the same as you move from gross to subtle. Do the senses project the objects of their experience? You can transcend with your eyes open thinking about this stuff! -Peter Tom T: The interesting initial experience of the wholeness of all creation is just that. Initial knowingness that there is just wholeness that is comprised totally of subject. On the other hand it is also easily known as subject. No problem sorting it all out. First all is known as subject and then is seen as subject appearing as object. Why? We live in and interact in a relative dualistic world. We need to function and not sit on the park bench like Eckhart Tolle did for three years until he got it sorted out. We were given the tools in our Sidhi practice. The objective was not to really learn how to fly but to be able to fully function once we woke up. Cool! Another master stroke by a true Master. If you knew the real reason would you have done it? Probably not, but the ego just loves the idea that I will fly. Tom To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Sense perception (was Re: soma New Vedic
Vaj writes: re Sidhi practice I still use it, you can integrate it, I don't feel any need to reject it as a practice. But it cannot lead to UC. Well maybe Unity Andy...;-) Tom T: Well actually the Sidhi practice might lead to a minute or two in Unity and then the entire weight of the practice and many years of experience bounces one into Brahmin. Again, the goal of a me being in Union with Creation was just another part of the smoke and mirror trick MMY used to get you done. Brahmin can not be returned and one knows Self has found Self and that is all that matters. Tom To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
