Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Thank you Eustace for the 60 Minutes link. I watched the show - a good plug. Jon Kabat-Zinn is looking peaceful. :) If Anderson Cooper can surrender his mobile devices and keep coming back to his breath, than so can I. And, I practiced this morning and I do feel calmer. If it is good enough for Google and they are teaching it in classrooms, then it is good enough for me. Comments below. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emily.mae50@... wrote : Let me try out some mindfulness (no, not a TM'er - no hope for enlightenment here) and see if I can answer you coherently. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : EM: I posted this article because I like the topic; personally, I think the test they used, based on what they mentioned of it, is a bunch of BS. There are no black and white answers. The article itself is lousy and dumbed down for public consumption. SD: I think the premise of the study is valid (from abstract) More generally since humor often involves seeing life or a person from a novel angle and self-deception tends to reduce such angles, self-deception will naturally tend to reduce ones sense of humor. EM2: Yes, this sentence does the best at capturing the essence of how they relate and why different people have different senses of humor. I posted the article, but didn't read the abstract. Basically, sloppy, and then I threw the whole thing under the bus for good measure. I admit I was overtaken by my resentment towards the Myers-Briggs test - my Ma had us kids take it as teenagers in an effort to figure us out (can't blame her for that). I filled it out as opposite as I could (in an attempt to outsmart it) and then suffered the consequences. I think I'll move on from this now.I sound kind of angry in my original reply. SD: My concern is the research design -- whereby self-deception is purportedly measured by a questionnaire.In contrast, if the study identified levels of deception via brain imaging or similar means, it could be quite insightful. That is, almost by definition people don't know when they are deceiving themselves. Tell tale clues might show up if previously identified and established deception centers in the brain lit up when a subject gave particular responses. EM2: That 60 minutes show attached electrodes to Anderson Cooper's brain and showed the part of the brain that lit up with stressful thoughts and then how it relaxed. Pretty convincing. Without that, we are left with, it appears, some crude notion of an implicit norm about self-detection such as its normal for everyone to at times enjoy being cruel. So if one answers no to I could never enjoy being cruel,” one would presumably score higher on the self-detection scale. To me that ass-backwards. People who are cruel to others have a distinctly more limited perspective than a more considerate compassionate person that sees from multiple angles, from other people's perspectives, how actions may hurt another. And taking pleasure in another's pain further indicates some inner pain/distortions twistedness that would generally indicate a limited perspective. Which is counter to the premise of the study that a wider perspective, the ability to see things from multiple angles correlates with a broader, deeper sense of humor. EM2. Exactly. I would like to see how they scored/measured and corrected for measures of impression management, extraversion, mood and how much a person laughs in their daily life. These things seem unquantifiable. EM: Great humor like great art often comes out of pain and suffering. SD: I can't speak for others or for great art or humor, EM2: What, are you saying I made a pompous and blanket statement? O.K. The word great is wholly subjective as is the way I was applying/interpreting pain and suffering - was thinking more along the lines of existential angst in this instance. Art, literature, and music that I do enjoy and appreciate and that has meaning for me (not always LOL humor though, it's true) often has roots in, or is a comment on, or expression of some form of pain and suffering/questioning (very broadly defined.) You say it much better, below and I love it. To appease my melancholic self, this is on my refrigerator, which came in a used book: Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it anymore, draw back a little, and have a cup of tea. - Elder Sophrony of Essex SD:.but for me, creative times are generally amplified during times of balance and integration -- when a back drop of relaxed freedom and happiness exists and playfulness is more manifest. EM2: Love this - inspiring My point on the (not termed such in prior post) of the existential angst Woody Allen appeared to express in the posted video -- to me is different than pain and suffering. The angst has
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? Not to harp on this, but I think this is an important point. And I think you are (possibly intentionally) missing that point. EM: That is my point - that those who can easily apply simple yes/no answers to questions such as these (I'm not saying these particular ones are good examples) may tend to think in black and white terms in life, a rigid kind of perspective, and don't seek to consider or explore the it depends scenarios that better represent reality and serve to better inform one of the complexity and depth of the human condition. I find that deceptive because the truth is that morality can be subjective as you will note below. If you -- being completely honest -- can answer Yes/True to the first question, then *that is the answer*. If you -- again, being completely honest -- can answer No/False to the second question, then *that is the answer*. EM: Yes, assuming the rules of the test are these, and conforming, if these were your answers than they are your answers. The problem (IMO) lies with people who hedge their bets and say, Well...this is a bad question, because although yes, more than one time I *have* felt good when I heard that someone died, I don't feel that way all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: You are the one here who is tying the yes/no option to a good/bad person conclusion. Also, the question was whether it felt good, more than once, to hear that someone had been *killed*. Or they would prefer to say, This second question is bad, too, because although I cannot say that I have *never* enjoyed being cruel, I don't enjoy being cruel all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: The question is whether one *could enjoy being cruel* - not the assumption that they have already, whether they enjoyed it at the time or all the time, or how that implicates one in being good or bad. All of this is self-deception. *The* answers to the questions ARE (respectively) Yes and No. ANY hedging and excuses and exceptions a person feels they need to post after that are IMO exercises in self-deception, an attempt to convince themselves that they're good people anyway. EM: If I conform to the rules of said test and answer, without question I would answer OPPOSITE to what you answered - a definite No and Yes! You must be joking? I can honestly say, up to this point in my life, I don't think I have ever *felt good* to hear of someone being killed. Maybe I felt relieved (e.g., Bin Laden, sexual predator at large, etc.), but I can't drum up a feeling of *good* as in pleasurable. And, I can also honestly say I could never enjoy being cruel. That is a *YES*, right? Are you trying to yank my chain with your answers? Should I be assuming that you mistakenly reversed your answers? Should I be assuming that you have lied? Your answer above, Emily, sounds to me like an attempt to portray any person who feels no need to equivocate and lie -- to themselves and others -- and can answer these questions with a simple Yes and No as a Bad Person. Whereas the person who can't answer them without equivocating and making excuses for answering Yes and No can still claim to be a Good Person. It seems to me that the very *definition* of the latter behavior is self-deception. EM: What? See above. The article is about tying the ability to perceive humor to one's level of self-deception, not about determining whether they are good or bad. If you have taken pleasure in news of someone else's death -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. If you have enjoyed being cruel -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. How *often* you do these things is not the question; it's whether you can honestly admit to doing them when you find yourself doing them. Those who indulge in
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Thanks for your reply. What? You were expecting more? No, that's it. Thanks for your reply. What were you hoping for? From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ...In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? Not to harp on this, but I think this is an important point. And I think you are (possibly intentionally) missing that point. EM: That is my point - that those who can easily apply simple yes/no answers to questions such as these (I'm not saying these particular ones are good examples) may tend to think in black and white terms in life, a rigid kind of perspective, and don't seek to consider or explore the it depends scenarios that better represent reality and serve to better inform one of the complexity and depth of the human condition. I find that deceptive because the truth is that morality can be subjective as you will note below. If you -- being completely honest -- can answer Yes/True to the first question, then *that is the answer*. If you -- again, being completely honest -- can answer No/False to the second question, then *that is the answer*. EM: Yes, assuming the rules of the test are these, and conforming, if these were your answers than they are your answers. The problem (IMO) lies with people who hedge their bets and say, Well...this is a bad question, because although yes, more than one time I *have* felt good when I heard that someone died, I don't feel that way all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: You are the one here who is tying the yes/no option to a good/bad person conclusion. Also, the question was whether it felt good, more than once, to hear that someone had been *killed*. Or they would prefer to say, This second question is bad, too, because although I cannot say that I have *never* enjoyed being cruel, I don't enjoy being cruel all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: The question is whether one *could enjoy being cruel* - not the assumption that they have already, whether they enjoyed it at the time or all the time, or how that implicates one in being good or bad. All of this is self-deception. *The* answers to the questions ARE (respectively) Yes and No. ANY hedging and excuses and exceptions a person feels they need to post after that are IMO exercises in self-deception, an attempt to convince themselves that they're good people anyway. EM: If I conform to the rules of said test and answer, without question I would answer OPPOSITE to what you answered - a definite No and Yes! You must be joking? I can honestly say, up to this point in my life, I don't think I have ever *felt good* to hear of someone being killed. Maybe I felt relieved (e.g., Bin Laden, sexual predator at large, etc.), but I can't drum up a feeling of *good* as in pleasurable. And, I can also honestly say I could never enjoy being cruel. That is a *YES*, right? Are you trying to yank my chain with your answers? Should I be assuming that you mistakenly reversed your answers? Should I be assuming that you have lied? Your answer above, Emily, sounds to me like an attempt to portray any person who feels no need to equivocate and lie -- to themselves and others -- and can answer these questions with a simple Yes and No as a Bad Person. Whereas the person who can't answer them without equivocating and making excuses for answering Yes and No can still claim to be a Good Person. It seems to me that the very *definition* of the latter behavior is self-deception. EM: What? See above. The article is about tying the ability to perceive humor to one's level of self-deception, not about determining whether they are good or bad. If you have taken pleasure in news of someone else's death -- EVER -- *that's
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
An answer to the following question in yes/no format. Were the responses to the questions consistent with the integrity of Barry Wright, as you perceive him? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Thanks for your reply. What? You were expecting more? No, that's it. Thanks for your reply. What were you hoping for? From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, December 16, 2014 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? Not to harp on this, but I think this is an important point. And I think you are (possibly intentionally) missing that point. EM: That is my point - that those who can easily apply simple yes/no answers to questions such as these (I'm not saying these particular ones are good examples) may tend to think in black and white terms in life, a rigid kind of perspective, and don't seek to consider or explore the it depends scenarios that better represent reality and serve to better inform one of the complexity and depth of the human condition. I find that deceptive because the truth is that morality can be subjective as you will note below. If you -- being completely honest -- can answer Yes/True to the first question, then *that is the answer*. If you -- again, being completely honest -- can answer No/False to the second question, then *that is the answer*. EM: Yes, assuming the rules of the test are these, and conforming, if these were your answers than they are your answers. The problem (IMO) lies with people who hedge their bets and say, Well...this is a bad question, because although yes, more than one time I *have* felt good when I heard that someone died, I don't feel that way all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: You are the one here who is tying the yes/no option to a good/bad person conclusion. Also, the question was whether it felt good, more than once, to hear that someone had been *killed*. Or they would prefer to say, This second question is bad, too, because although I cannot say that I have *never* enjoyed being cruel, I don't enjoy being cruel all the time. I'm really a good person. EM: The question is whether one *could enjoy being cruel* - not the assumption that they have already, whether they enjoyed it at the time or all the time, or how that implicates one in being good or bad. All of this is self-deception. *The* answers to the questions ARE (respectively) Yes and No. ANY hedging and excuses and exceptions a person feels they need to post after that are IMO exercises in self-deception, an attempt to convince themselves that they're good people anyway. EM: If I conform to the rules of said test and answer, without question I would answer OPPOSITE to what you answered - a definite No and Yes! You must be joking? I can honestly say, up to this point in my life, I don't think I have ever *felt good* to hear of someone being killed. Maybe I felt relieved (e.g., Bin Laden, sexual predator at large, etc.), but I can't drum up a feeling of *good* as in pleasurable. And, I can also honestly say I could never enjoy being cruel. That is a *YES*, right? Are you trying to yank my chain with your answers? Should I be assuming that you mistakenly reversed your answers? Should I be assuming that you have lied? Your answer above, Emily, sounds to me like an attempt to portray any person who feels no need to equivocate and lie -- to themselves and others -- and can answer these questions with a simple Yes and No as a Bad Person. Whereas the person who can't answer them without equivocating and making excuses for answering Yes and No can still claim to be a Good Person. It seems to me
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ...In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? Not to harp on this, but I think this is an important point. And I think you are (possibly intentionally) missing that point. If you -- being completely honest -- can answer Yes/True to the first question, then *that is the answer*. If you -- again, being completely honest -- can answer No/False to the second question, then *that is the answer*. The problem (IMO) lies with people who hedge their bets and say, Well...this is a bad question, because although yes, more than one time I *have* felt good when I heard that someone died, I don't feel that way all the time. I'm really a good person. Or they would prefer to say, This second question is bad, too, because although I cannot say that I have *never* enjoyed being cruel, I don't enjoy being cruel all the time. I'm really a good person. All of this is self-deception. *The* answers to the questions ARE (respectively) Yes and No. ANY hedging and excuses and exceptions a person feels they need to post after that are IMO exercises in self-deception, an attempt to convince themselves that they're good people anyway. Your answer above, Emily, sounds to me like an attempt to portray any person who feels no need to equivocate and lie -- to themselves and others -- and can answer these questions with a simple Yes and No as a Bad Person. Whereas the person who can't answer them without equivocating and making excuses for answering Yes and No can still claim to be a Good Person. It seems to me that the very *definition* of the latter behavior is self-deception. If you have taken pleasure in news of someone else's death -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. If you have enjoyed being cruel -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. How *often* you do these things is not the question; it's whether you can honestly admit to doing them when you find yourself doing them. Those who indulge in self-deception *can't* admit this. Think back a few months to Robin Carlsen. For weeks he called Vaj a liar for claiming that he (Robin) had struck one or more of his (Robin's) students. Finally, back against the wall, Robin actually *admitted* to having struck his students. THEN, almost immediately, he went right back to No, Vaj really was lying because he said I did it 'at a seminar' and I never did. THEN, someone here posted that they remembered him doing it, and the only place that could have happened was at a seminar. And still, Robin continued to call Vaj a liar and claim that he had never done what he *admitted* he had done. THAT is pretty much the ultimate exercise in self-deception as far as I'm concerned. Did he strike his students? The answer is Yes. The issue of How often or Where isn't the point. Attempts to try to *make* it the point are self-deception, and in Robin's case an attempt to deceive others. The problem with self-deception is that it becomes a pattern. This all took place (the original events) twenty or more years ago, and Robin *still* can't bring himself to tell the honest truth about it. Just my opinion...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Hm.I am hitting the pause button today.a small skill I'm learning when I am in danger of reactingjust me.will get back to you tomorrow. :) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? Not to harp on this, but I think this is an important point. And I think you are (possibly intentionally) missing that point. If you -- being completely honest -- can answer Yes/True to the first question, then *that is the answer*. If you -- again, being completely honest -- can answer No/False to the second question, then *that is the answer*. The problem (IMO) lies with people who hedge their bets and say, Well...this is a bad question, because although yes, more than one time I *have* felt good when I heard that someone died, I don't feel that way all the time. I'm really a good person. Or they would prefer to say, This second question is bad, too, because although I cannot say that I have *never* enjoyed being cruel, I don't enjoy being cruel all the time. I'm really a good person. All of this is self-deception. *The* answers to the questions ARE (respectively) Yes and No. ANY hedging and excuses and exceptions a person feels they need to post after that are IMO exercises in self-deception, an attempt to convince themselves that they're good people anyway. Your answer above, Emily, sounds to me like an attempt to portray any person who feels no need to equivocate and lie -- to themselves and others -- and can answer these questions with a simple Yes and No as a Bad Person. Whereas the person who can't answer them without equivocating and making excuses for answering Yes and No can still claim to be a Good Person. It seems to me that the very *definition* of the latter behavior is self-deception. If you have taken pleasure in news of someone else's death -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. If you have enjoyed being cruel -- EVER -- *that's who you are*. How *often* you do these things is not the question; it's whether you can honestly admit to doing them when you find yourself doing them. Those who indulge in self-deception *can't* admit this. Think back a few months to Robin Carlsen. For weeks he called Vaj a liar for claiming that he (Robin) had struck one or more of his (Robin's) students. Finally, back against the wall, Robin actually *admitted* to having struck his students. THEN, almost immediately, he went right back to No, Vaj really was lying because he said I did it 'at a seminar' and I never did. THEN, someone here posted that they remembered him doing it, and the only place that could have happened was at a seminar. And still, Robin continued to call Vaj a liar and claim that he had never done what he *admitted* he had done. THAT is pretty much the ultimate exercise in self-deception as far as I'm concerned. Did he strike his students? The answer is Yes. The issue of How often or Where isn't the point. Attempts to try to *make* it the point are self-deception, and in Robin's case an attempt to deceive others. The problem with self-deception is that it becomes a pattern. This all took place (the original events) twenty or more years ago, and Robin *still* can't bring himself to tell the honest truth about it. Just my opinion...
[FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already. It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ People who fail to see the absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly. View on blogs.wsj.com http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both.
I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse
to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher
and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a
lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus
self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more
I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the
reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that
they had gotten past their self-importance.
From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]
FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny
and others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to
appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my
upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already.
It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers
||
|||| It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers People who fail to
see the absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly.
||
| View on blogs.wsj.com |Preview by Yahoo|
||
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and experience. I thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the human condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some degree) or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a reflection of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both. I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that they had gotten past their self-importance. From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already. It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ People who fail to see the absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly. View on blogs.wsj.com http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 7:28 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and
experience. I thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the
human condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some
degree) or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a
reflection of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that
personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have
made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree
that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the
absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others.
Relating this to Carlos Castaneda again, he spoke (and occasionally eloquently)
of this dance along the razor's edge of absurd and serious as controlled
folly. I always loved that term, and that concept. It kinda describes my life.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both.
I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse
to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher
and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a
lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus
self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more
I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the
reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that
they had gotten past their self-importance.
From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and
others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to
appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my
upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already.
It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers
| |
| | | | It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers People who fail to see the
absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly. | |
| View on blogs.wsj.com| Preview by Yahoo |
| |
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
O.K. Get ready...do you mean controlled foolishness? I've gotta take my dog for a walk. Trying to take my JRT on a walk through a neighborhood replete with squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, and even deer at times is foolishness on my part, so I think we'll head to the lake. She's not much of a swimmer. :) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 7:28 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and experience. I thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the human condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some degree) or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a reflection of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others. Relating this to Carlos Castaneda again, he spoke (and occasionally eloquently) of this dance along the razor's edge of absurd and serious as controlled folly. I always loved that term, and that concept. It kinda describes my life. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both. I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that they had gotten past their self-importance. From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already. It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ People who fail to see the absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly. View on blogs.wsj.com http://blogs.wsj.com/ideas-market/2012/05/21/its-no-joke-to-self-deceivers/ Preview by Yahoo
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
O.K. Get ready...do you mean controlled foolishness? I've gotta
take my dog for a walk. Trying to take my JRT on a walk through a neighborhood
replete with squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, and even deer at times is
foolishness on my part, so I think we'll head to the lake. She's not much of a
swimmer. :)
Good question. Without looking it up, I find that I do not consider 'folly' a
synonym for 'foolishness.' Looking it up, I find that the first definition I
find on Google disagrees with me, and does:fol·lynounnoun: folly; plural noun:
Follies
- 1. lack of good sense; foolishness.an act of sheer folly
- a foolish act, idea, or practice.plural noun: folliesthe follies of
youth
| synonyms: | foolishness, foolhardiness, stupidity, idiocy,
lunacy, madness, rashness, recklessness, imprudence, injudiciousness,
irresponsibility, thoughtlessness, indiscretion; informalcraziness the folly
of youth |
| antonyms: | wisdom |
- 2. a costly ornamental building with no practical purpose, especially a
tower or mock-Gothic ruin built in a large garden or park.
From the *outside*, many things can be considered 'folly.' IMO, *most* of the
historically-recorded actions of *most* spiritual teachers this planet has
ever known can be put in that category.
But were these actions 'foolishness?'
So I guess I'm gonna go more for definition #2. 'Folly' can also be doing
something that has no practical purpose -- like living and trying to live as
cool a life as you can manage -- but doing it while knowing full well that most
people on earth are going to consider your efforts nothing but 'ornamental,'
and thus the actions themselves 'foolishness.' :-)
There are whole spiritual traditions on this planet who consider 'folly' to be
synonymous with the word chosen in this definition as its antonym: 'wisdom.'
:-)
The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill
| |
| | | | | | | |
| The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill |
| |
| View on www.youtube.com | Preview by Yahoo |
| |
| |
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and experience. I
thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the human
condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some degree)
or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a reflection
of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that
personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have
made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree
that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the
absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others.
Relating this to Carlos Castaneda again, he spoke (and occasionally eloquently)
of this dance along the razor's edge of absurd and serious as controlled
folly. I always loved that term, and that concept. It kinda describes my life.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote :
Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both.
I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse
to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher
and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a
lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus
self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more
I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the
reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that
they had gotten past their self-importance.
From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and
others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to
appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my
upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already.
It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers
| |
| | | | It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers People who fail to see the
absurdity in themselves may also fail to notice absurdity more broadly. | |
| View on blogs.wsj.com| Preview by Yahoo |
| |
#yiv2917549312 #yiv2917549312 -- #yiv2917549312ygrp-mkp {border:1px solid
#d8d8d8;font-family:Arial;margin:10px 0;padding:0 10px;}#yiv2917549312
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
BTW, compare to definition #2 below. :-) From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception From: emily.ma...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception O.K. Get ready...do you mean controlled foolishness? I've gotta take my dog for a walk. Trying to take my JRT on a walk through a neighborhood replete with squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, and even deer at times is foolishness on my part, so I think we'll head to the lake. She's not much of a swimmer. :) Good question. Without looking it up, I find that I do not consider 'folly' a synonym for 'foolishness.' Looking it up, I find that the first definition I find on Google disagrees with me, and does:fol·lynounnoun: folly; plural noun: Follies - 1. lack of good sense; foolishness.an act of sheer folly - a foolish act, idea, or practice.plural noun: folliesthe follies of youth | synonyms: | foolishness, foolhardiness, stupidity, idiocy, lunacy, madness, rashness, recklessness, imprudence, injudiciousness, irresponsibility, thoughtlessness, indiscretion; informalcraziness the folly of youth | | antonyms: | wisdom | - 2. a costly ornamental building with no practical purpose, especially a tower or mock-Gothic ruin built in a large garden or park. From the *outside*, many things can be considered 'folly.' IMO, *most* of the historically-recorded actions of *most* spiritual teachers this planet has ever known can be put in that category. But were these actions 'foolishness?' So I guess I'm gonna go more for definition #2. 'Folly' can also be doing something that has no practical purpose -- like living and trying to live as cool a life as you can manage -- but doing it while knowing full well that most people on earth are going to consider your efforts nothing but 'ornamental,' and thus the actions themselves 'foolishness.' :-) There are whole spiritual traditions on this planet who consider 'folly' to be synonymous with the word chosen in this definition as its antonym: 'wisdom.' :-) The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill | | | | | | | | | | | The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill | | | | View on www.youtube.com | Preview by Yahoo | | | | | ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and experience. I thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the human condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some degree) or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a reflection of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others. Relating this to Carlos Castaneda again, he spoke (and occasionally eloquently) of this dance along the razor's edge of absurd and serious as controlled folly. I always loved that term, and that concept. It kinda describes my life. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both. I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse to it and freak out, but one of the things I'm most grateful to that teacher and that whole trip for is that my time there taught me to laugh at myself a lot more. Relating it to this study, the more self-importance (and thus self-deception) I managed to drop, the more in life I found funny, and the more I laughed. In a way it was very Castanedan and his suggestion that one of the reasons his characters don Juan and don Gennero were such funny guys was that they had gotten past their self-importance. From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 6:51 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception I've been thinking about humor - how some things strike some as so funny and others as not at all. I had to be taught by others in early adulthood to appreciate the absurd, for example, as that element of humor was lacking in my upbringing. This article is from 2012 so may have crossed here already. It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers | | | | | | It’s No Joke to Self-Deceivers People who fail
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
In my experience (given all possible observations, a rather microscopic slice of life) those that have loosened up or (possibly) lost a straight jacket sense of limited and static identity, tend to laugh a lot. Not (necessarily) in dumb and silly reactive ways, but more towards deeper, joyful, playful laughter. Play is perhaps a key theme. MMY, a flawed but perhaps relevant example) was like that, at times, in smaller settings, particularly in the pre 1975 days. And those with a deep sense of (in their view) the absurdity of life, even if its exposition seems dry, pedantic and even morose (like the Woody Allen interview within the Atheist video I posted yesterday, still can have a robust sense of humor. Both are in a sense, result from finding less or little to hang onto, less ability or need to impose grand meanings and narratives on life and its events, and more a moment to moment sense of adventure to find or simply see momentary wonder, joy or irony in things as they occur. A more generalized (possibly obtuse and pompous) framework is that a static, limited sense of self are deep roots of self-deception. Those who are not as tightly tied to an identity based on common ID markers such as level of education (and schools attended) career, age, gender, income, status, possessions, steady progress in life (not the ups and downs of, you know, losers), what others think of them, appearance and physical flaws, a conviction regarding the correctness of their thoughts and judgments, tastes, appear to have exponentially greater degrees of freedom to play. And in that play, express and enjoy wide ranging humor reflecting the contradictions, absurdities, disconnects, and juxtaposition of unexpected elements. Typically, it is not, at at least less so, humor aimed at diminishing others. And having less to lose when things inevitably change, perhaps enables them more of a sense of adventure in life, rather than keeping it safe and secure. In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” I would hope anyone with a sense of humor as well as some sense of the diversity and richness of life to reject such questions, and scribble in: It depends! On definitions, on context and degree (not that morality is necessarily conditional). And if you want to talk about it great, but I am not going to give you a misleading, yet easily quantifiable and scored because it makes your study easier to do and let you draw unwarranted conclusions to an unsuspecting public. And I suspect, some that would laugh at the question “I could never enjoy being cruel.” as absurd, and check and emphatic NO!, may not be the deepest, compassionate, nuanced thinkers on the block. Ethical questions regarding an off the cuff call to nuke the towel heads or in another arena, for example, large-scale factory farming, may never occur to them. They may have a wide-spectrum, practiced and widely acknowledged sense of humor (particularly after an extended duration of beer pong) but does this (caricature) typically reflect much self-awareness / absence of denial? What I have seen over the years (yes, limited observations) is that some who possess great outer verve and bravado and air-tight self confidence in expressing loud, black and white positions, may actually be denying quite a bit -- that may finally begin to surface later in life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
From: seerd...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ...In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. For example, given that interpretation, all that follows could easily fit into that category: I would hope anyone with a sense of humor as well as some sense of the diversity and richness of life to reject such questions, and scribble in: It depends! On definitions, on context and degree (not that morality is necessarily conditional). And if you want to talk about it great, but I am not going to give you a misleading, yet easily quantifiable and scored because it makes your study easier to do and let you draw unwarranted conclusions to an unsuspecting public. And I suspect, some that would laugh at the question “I could never enjoy being cruel.” as absurd, and check and emphatic NO!, may not be the deepest, compassionate, nuanced thinkers on the block. Ethical questions regarding an off the cuff call to nuke the towel heads or in another arena, for example, large-scale factory farming, may never occur to them. They may have a wide-spectrum, practiced and widely acknowledged sense of humor (particularly after an extended duration of beer pong) but does this (caricature) typically reflect much self-awareness / absence of denial? What I have seen over the years (yes, limited observations) is that some who possess great outer verve and bravado and air-tight self confidence in expressing loud, black and white positions, may actually be denying quite a bit -- that may finally begin to surface later in life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Would it be folly to take a wrecking ball to the Tower of Invincibility? Nice try at making the comparison of your life with Definition #2. :) Wisdom may arise out of folly... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : BTW, compare to definition #2 below. :-) From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:37 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:01 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception O.K. Get ready...do you mean controlled foolishness? I've gotta take my dog for a walk. Trying to take my JRT on a walk through a neighborhood replete with squirrels, rabbits, raccoons, and even deer at times is foolishness on my part, so I think we'll head to the lake. She's not much of a swimmer. :) Good question. Without looking it up, I find that I do not consider 'folly' a synonym for 'foolishness.' Looking it up, I find that the first definition I find on Google disagrees with me, and does: fol·ly noun noun: folly; plural noun: Follies 1. lack of good sense; foolishness. an act of sheer folly a foolish act, idea, or practice. plural noun: follies the follies of youth synonyms: foolishness https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+foolishnesssa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCAQ_SowAA, foolhardiness, stupidity https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+stupiditysa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCEQ_SowAA, idiocy https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+idiocysa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCIQ_SowAA, lunacy https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+lunacysa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCMQ_SowAA, madness https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+madnesssa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCQQ_SowAA, rashness, recklessness, imprudence, injudiciousness, irresponsibility, thoughtlessness, indiscretion https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+indiscretionsa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCUQ_SowAA; informalcraziness the folly of youth antonyms: wisdom https://www.google.com/search?newwindow=1q=define+wisdomsa=Xei=FOSNVJWDIY3VPLTdgJADved=0CCcQ_SowAA 2. a costly ornamental building with no practical purpose, especially a tower or mock-Gothic ruin built in a large garden or park. From the *outside*, many things can be considered 'folly.' IMO, *most* of the historically-recorded actions of *most* spiritual teachers this planet has ever known can be put in that category. But were these actions 'foolishness?' So I guess I'm gonna go more for definition #2. 'Folly' can also be doing something that has no practical purpose -- like living and trying to live as cool a life as you can manage -- but doing it while knowing full well that most people on earth are going to consider your efforts nothing but 'ornamental,' and thus the actions themselves 'foolishness.' :-) There are whole spiritual traditions on this planet who consider 'folly' to be synonymous with the word chosen in this definition as its antonym: 'wisdom.' :-) The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtK7xUIDxk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtK7xUIDxk The Beatles - The Fool On The Hill https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtK7xUIDxk View on www.youtube.com https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDtK7xUIDxk Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: emily.mae50@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com The ability to laugh at oneself typically increases with age and experience. I thought you would appreciate this. Absurdity is everywhere in the human condition, but there are those that can't objectify (at least to some degree) or pick up on the often subtle nuances of a situation to see it as a reflection of themselves or said human condition. I have found that those that personalize everything are particularly unable to do this. Of course, I have made the mistake also of living the approach of absurdity to such a degree that I clean forgot how to take my life seriously and also how to ground the absurd within in a way that shows respect for life and others. Relating this to Carlos Castaneda again, he spoke (and occasionally eloquently) of this dance along the razor's edge of absurd and serious as controlled folly. I always loved that term, and that concept. It kinda describes my life. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Great article and great concept, Emily. Thanks for posting both. I don't talk about my time with the Rama guy much here because some are averse to it and freak out, but one of the things
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Comments below. I tried to put reply in different color, but can't get formatting to take so used initials: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : SEER: In my experience (given all possible observations, a rather microscopic slice of life) those that have loosened up or (possibly) lost a straight jacket sense of limited and static identity, tend to laugh a lot. Not (necessarily) in dumb and silly reactive ways, but more towards deeper, joyful, playful laughter. Play is perhaps a key theme. MMY, a flawed but perhaps relevant example) was like that, at times, in smaller settings, particularly in the pre 1975 days. EM: I like this - if there is one thing that terrifies me today - it is an identity that represents and reflects a self-fulfilling prophecy, a closed system, a done deal in terms of personal growth, someone who is set in their ways and who never questions themselves. Yes, with one goal towards what you mention. I love and laugh at what I call the human condition quite a bit - helps keep me balanced and in touch with the concepts of compassion and forgiveness. DOPE: And those with a deep sense of (in their view) the absurdity of life, even if its exposition seems dry, pedantic and even morose (like the Woody Allen interview within the Atheist video I posted yesterday, still can have a robust sense of humor.) Both are in a sense, result from finding less or little to hang onto, less ability or need to impose grand meanings and narratives on life and its events, and more a moment to moment sense of adventure to find or simply see momentary wonder, joy or irony in things as they occur. EM: Great humor like great art often comes out of pain and suffering. RIP Robin Williams. Well, I like narratives in that I like stories, but in personal terms, it can get so grandiose and egotistical at times - relaying the *narrative* of one's life as a way of being. Gets in the way of living it. The mind by itself - I think it is overrated, personally. Inspiration comes from the heart and spirit. They gotta all be connected or it does get insanely and obscenely dull and repetitive. The mind gets off on itself and thinks it knows things - important things, which makes it happy and then it releases happy chemicals - I suspect it may all be a large form of mental masturbation (forgive my term). This ability to be present for life and for others is what I want to practice and I am making the shift in the last third of my life (despite what my mind thinks) and I hope to do it with the sense of adventure and momentary wonder you mention, and that takes being relaxed. Being on vacation is when I relax, in solitude also. With most others, in daily life - not so much. SEER: A more generalized (possibly obtuse and pompous) framework is that a static, limited sense of self are deep roots of self-deception. Those who are not as tightly tied to an identity based on common ID markers such as level of education (and schools attended) career, age, gender, income, status, possessions, steady progress in life (not the ups and downs of, you know, losers), what others think of them, appearance and physical flaws, a conviction regarding the correctness of their thoughts and judgments, tastes, appear to have exponentially greater degrees of freedom to play. And in that play, express and enjoy wide ranging humor reflecting the contradictions, absurdities, disconnects, and juxtaposition of unexpected elements. Typically, it is not, at at least less so, humor aimed at diminishing others. EM: At one time, my identity and sense of self-worth was completely tied to my career and performance in the career. What a disaster that was. Am learning a new way. I do love to play - the definition of play and also the word fun have radically expanded in scope in the last couple of years. Re: humor aimed at diminishing others - ridicule is never truly good humor - or stated in good humor. :) DOPE: And having less to lose when things inevitably change, perhaps enables them more of a sense of adventure in life, rather than keeping it safe and secure. EM: Undoubtedly. SEER: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” I would hope anyone with a sense of humor as well as some sense of the diversity and richness of life to reject such questions, and scribble in: It depends! On definitions, on context and
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Re: With most others, in daily life - not so much. Probably because all that deceptive conditioning sets in subconsciously. Know thyself is a very large concept. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, emily.mae50@... wrote : Comments below. I tried to put reply in different color, but can't get formatting to take so used initials: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : SEER: In my experience (given all possible observations, a rather microscopic slice of life) those that have loosened up or (possibly) lost a straight jacket sense of limited and static identity, tend to laugh a lot. Not (necessarily) in dumb and silly reactive ways, but more towards deeper, joyful, playful laughter. Play is perhaps a key theme. MMY, a flawed but perhaps relevant example) was like that, at times, in smaller settings, particularly in the pre 1975 days. EM: I like this - if there is one thing that terrifies me today - it is an identity that represents and reflects a self-fulfilling prophecy, a closed system, a done deal in terms of personal growth, someone who is set in their ways and who never questions themselves. Yes, with one goal towards what you mention. I love and laugh at what I call the human condition quite a bit - helps keep me balanced and in touch with the concepts of compassion and forgiveness. DOPE: And those with a deep sense of (in their view) the absurdity of life, even if its exposition seems dry, pedantic and even morose (like the Woody Allen interview within the Atheist video I posted yesterday, still can have a robust sense of humor.) Both are in a sense, result from finding less or little to hang onto, less ability or need to impose grand meanings and narratives on life and its events, and more a moment to moment sense of adventure to find or simply see momentary wonder, joy or irony in things as they occur. EM: Great humor like great art often comes out of pain and suffering. RIP Robin Williams. Well, I like narratives in that I like stories, but in personal terms, it can get so grandiose and egotistical at times - relaying the *narrative* of one's life as a way of being. Gets in the way of living it. The mind by itself - I think it is overrated, personally. Inspiration comes from the heart and spirit. They gotta all be connected or it does get insanely and obscenely dull and repetitive. The mind gets off on itself and thinks it knows things - important things, which makes it happy and then it releases happy chemicals - I suspect it may all be a large form of mental masturbation (forgive my term). This ability to be present for life and for others is what I want to practice and I am making the shift in the last third of my life (despite what my mind thinks) and I hope to do it with the sense of adventure and momentary wonder you mention, and that takes being relaxed. Being on vacation is when I relax, in solitude also. With most others, in daily life - not so much. SEER: A more generalized (possibly obtuse and pompous) framework is that a static, limited sense of self are deep roots of self-deception. Those who are not as tightly tied to an identity based on common ID markers such as level of education (and schools attended) career, age, gender, income, status, possessions, steady progress in life (not the ups and downs of, you know, losers), what others think of them, appearance and physical flaws, a conviction regarding the correctness of their thoughts and judgments, tastes, appear to have exponentially greater degrees of freedom to play. And in that play, express and enjoy wide ranging humor reflecting the contradictions, absurdities, disconnects, and juxtaposition of unexpected elements. Typically, it is not, at at least less so, humor aimed at diminishing others. EM: At one time, my identity and sense of self-worth was completely tied to my career and performance in the career. What a disaster that was. Am learning a new way. I do love to play - the definition of play and also the word fun have radically expanded in scope in the last couple of years. Re: humor aimed at diminishing others - ridicule is never truly good humor - or stated in good humor. :) DOPE: And having less to lose when things inevitably change, perhaps enables them more of a sense of adventure in life, rather than keeping it safe and secure. EM: Undoubtedly. SEER: In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: seerdope@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com ... In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice, they are not (Yogi Berra) In theory, I love science and its methods, despite severe limits. Particularly neuroscience, broadly defined. However, in practice, I am quite leery of psychological studies using interviews with canned questions, particularly if Yes/No are the alternatives. Even 10 point scales can be silly responses to complex questions. More than once it felt good when I heard on the news that someone had been killed” “I could never enjoy being cruel.” Just as a question, why can't someone who has No Problem answering these questions with a simple Yes or No interpret the inability to do so as self-deception. EM: Someone could - and by doing that they could be deceiving themselves, and also selling themselves and the rest of humanity short in some key way, perhaps? For example, given that interpretation, all that follows could easily fit into that category: I would hope anyone with a sense of humor as well as some sense of the diversity and richness of life to reject such questions, and scribble in: It depends! On definitions, on context and degree (not that morality is necessarily conditional). And if you want to talk about it great, but I am not going to give you a misleading, yet easily quantifiable and scored because it makes your study easier to do and let you draw unwarranted conclusions to an unsuspecting public. And I suspect, some that would laugh at the question “I could never enjoy being cruel.” as absurd, and check and emphatic NO!, may not be the deepest, compassionate, nuanced thinkers on the block. Ethical questions regarding an off the cuff call to nuke the towel heads or in another arena, for example, large-scale factory farming, may never occur to them. They may have a wide-spectrum, practiced and widely acknowledged sense of humor (particularly after an extended duration of beer pong) but does this (caricature) typically reflect much self-awareness / absence of denial? What I have seen over the years (yes, limited observations) is that some who possess great outer verve and bravado and air-tight self confidence in expressing loud, black and white positions, may actually be denying quite a bit -- that may finally begin to surface later in life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
EM: I posted this article because I like the topic; personally, I think the test they used, based on what they mentioned of it, is a bunch of BS. There are no black and white answers. The article itself is lousy and dumbed down for public consumption. SD: I think the premise of the study is valid (from abstract) More generally since humor often involves seeing life or a person from a novel angle and self-deception tends to reduce such angles, self-deception will naturally tend to reduce ones sense of humor. My concern is the research design -- whereby self-deception is purportedly measured by a questionnaire.In contrast, if the study identified levels of deception via brain imaging or similar means, it could be quite insightful. That is, almost by definition people don't know when they are deceiving themselves. Tell tale clues might show up if previously identified and established deception centers in the brain lit up when a subject gave particular responses. Without that, we are left with i appears, some crude notion of an implicit norm about self-detection such as its normal for everyone to at times enjoy being cruel So if one answers no to I could never enjoy being cruel.” one would presumably score higher on the self-detection scale. To me that ass-backwards. People who are cruel to others have a distinctly more limited perspective than a more considerate compassionate person that sees from multiple angles, from other people's perspectives, how actions may hurt another. And taking pleasure in another's pain further indicates some inner pain/distortions twistedness that would generally indicate a limited perspective. Which is counter to the premise of the study that a wider perspective, the ability to see things from multiple angles correlates with a broader, deeper sense of humor. EM: Great humor like great art often comes out of pain and suffering. . SD: I can't speak for others or for great art or humor, but for me, creative times are generally amplified during times of balance and integration -- when a back drop of relaxed freedom and happiness exists and playfulness is more manifest. My point on the (not termed such in prior post) of the existential angst Woody Allen appeared to express in the posted video -- to me is different than pain and suffering. The angst has force/motivated him to find humor, if not some degree of joy and happiness, from the creative act and -- and appreciating what there is in life, even if fleeting and ever changing. EM: Well, I like narratives in that I like stories, but in personal terms, it can get so grandiose and egotistical at times - relaying the *narrative* of one's life as a way of being. Gets in the way of living it. The mind by itself - I think it is overrated, personally. Inspiration comes from the heart and spirit. They gotta all be connected or it does get insanely and obscenely dull and repetitive. The mind gets off on itself and thinks it knows things - important things, which makes it happy and then it releases happy chemicals - I suspect it may all be a large form of mental masturbation (forgive my term). SD: personal narratives and imposing judgements and values on everything one sees, for me does seem to get in the way -- and over time has loosened its hold. That is distinct from the intensity and degree of mental inquiry one pursues -- which I think is an individual thing -- some are more drawn in that direction -- and the process may be clarifying for them. However, for me as to when it becomes obsessive and marginally productive can be a issue and and can trip me up at times -- warranting some reflection as to when to move on.. EM: Am learning a new way. I do love to play - the definition of play and also the word fun have radically expanded in scope in the last couple of years. SD: For me, there is a useful distinction between play/ (leisure activities broadly defined) which have transitioned a bit towards the boring for me, distinct from playfulness which can underlie all parts of life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Humor and Self-Deception
Let me try out some mindfulness (no, not a TM'er - no hope for enlightenment here) and see if I can answer you coherently. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, seerdope@... wrote : EM: I posted this article because I like the topic; personally, I think the test they used, based on what they mentioned of it, is a bunch of BS. There are no black and white answers. The article itself is lousy and dumbed down for public consumption. SD: I think the premise of the study is valid (from abstract) More generally since humor often involves seeing life or a person from a novel angle and self-deception tends to reduce such angles, self-deception will naturally tend to reduce ones sense of humor. My concern is the research design -- whereby self-deception is purportedly measured by a questionnaire.In contrast, if the study identified levels of deception via brain imaging or similar means, it could be quite insightful. That is, almost by definition people don't know when they are deceiving themselves. Tell tale clues might show up if previously identified and established deception centers in the brain lit up when a subject gave particular responses. Without that, we are left with i appears, some crude notion of an implicit norm about self-detection such as its normal for everyone to at times enjoy being cruel So if one answers no to I could never enjoy being cruel.” one would presumably score higher on the self-detection scale. To me that ass-backwards. People who are cruel to others have a distinctly more limited perspective than a more considerate compassionate person that sees from multiple angles, from other people's perspectives, how actions may hurt another. And taking pleasure in another's pain further indicates some inner pain/distortions twistedness that would generally indicate a limited perspective. Which is counter to the premise of the study that a wider perspective, the ability to see things from multiple angles correlates with a broader, deeper sense of humor. EM: Great humor like great art often comes out of pain and suffering. . SD: I can't speak for others or for great art or humor, but for me, creative times are generally amplified during times of balance and integration -- when a back drop of relaxed freedom and happiness exists and playfulness is more manifest. My point on the (not termed such in prior post) of the existential angst Woody Allen appeared to express in the posted video -- to me is different than pain and suffering. The angst has force/motivated him to find humor, if not some degree of joy and happiness, from the creative act and -- and appreciating what there is in life, even if fleeting and ever changing. EM: Well, I like narratives in that I like stories, but in personal terms, it can get so grandiose and egotistical at times - relaying the *narrative* of one's life as a way of being. Gets in the way of living it. The mind by itself - I think it is overrated, personally. Inspiration comes from the heart and spirit. They gotta all be connected or it does get insanely and obscenely dull and repetitive. The mind gets off on itself and thinks it knows things - important things, which makes it happy and then it releases happy chemicals - I suspect it may all be a large form of mental masturbation (forgive my term). SD: personal narratives and imposing judgements and values on everything one sees, for me does seem to get in the way -- and over time has loosened its hold. That is distinct from the intensity and degree of mental inquiry one pursues -- which I think is an individual thing -- some are more drawn in that direction -- and the process may be clarifying for them. However, for me as to when it becomes obsessive and marginally productive can be a issue and and can trip me up at times -- warranting some reflection as to when to move on.. EM: Am learning a new way. I do love to play - the definition of play and also the word fun have radically expanded in scope in the last couple of years. SD: For me, there is a useful distinction between play/ (leisure activities broadly defined) which have transitioned a bit towards the boring for me, distinct from playfulness which can underlie all parts of life.
