[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: As to whether the benefit of the P group is for all, I am skeptical. It begs the question, 'what *isn't* for the benefit of all?'. Can't think of anything... Second-hand cigarette smoke? I'd ask, what have you learned regarding your experience to second- hand cigarette smoke? Surely it has taught you something, if only to avoid it. The world that we discriminate into existence, whether waking, dreaming or sleeping, exists entirely for our benefit, simply because we have created it; it is us. It exists purely as a means for us to further examine ourselves. What is the relationship of anything we percieve, observe and react to, to ourselves, our sense of ourselves? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, the whole concept of people living in supposedly rarified spiritual environments supported by others turns out to be quite a lie, in the case of the 'P' or 'MD' groups, for example. I like what Rick said about being more comfortable about the Trappist model, delivering bread and stuff. And I have no problem whatsoever with someone choosing to live a monastic life. Its just that we have all heard of liberated beings doing whatever they choose to do, and it surely wasn't their habits that got them there, or prevented their liberation. It is a dreamy and sugary thought to associate some sort of gentle pious life with liberation, but in fact there is no connection at all. None. I have grown the most spiritually by doing *exactly* what I choose to, whether that meant smoking or drinking or eating meat or contemplating such actions. All of this false piety leads to suffering in many cases, and does no good whatsoever, because it doesn't resolve the bonds of attachment, it only strengthens them through denial. Resolve attachment through transcendence, not denial. So as the phrase says-- eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Well said. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- jim_flanegin wrote: It is a dreamy and sugary thought to associate some sort of gentle pious life with liberation, but in fact there is no connection at all. None. Gentle, pious living has helped me enormously in the past, so I don't discount its value. But I can't say as it liberated me, so I'm not really countering what you say, Jim. In truth, after a few years of gentle, pious living in a reclusive environment healed some problems that held me back, I was chomping at the bit to get out and do the householder thing. That said, the rationale behind giving to Purusha that's been pitched to me is not, Help me become enlightened, but rather, Help maintain a group of yogis who enliven the unified field for the benefit of all. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I still believe that long periods of time spent meditating are wonderful.Everyone should have that chance for a few months in a lifetime. Yes, absolutely! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Gillam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- jim_flanegin wrote: It is a dreamy and sugary thought to associate some sort of gentle pious life with liberation, but in fact there is no connection at all. None. Gentle, pious living has helped me enormously in the past, so I don't discount its value. But I can't say as it liberated me, so I'm not really countering what you say, Jim. In truth, after a few years of gentle, pious living in a reclusive environment healed some problems that held me back, I was chomping at the bit to get out and do the householder thing. That said, the rationale behind giving to Purusha that's been pitched to me is not, Help me become enlightened, but rather, Help maintain a group of yogis who enliven the unified field for the benefit of all. Thanks for the thoughtful response to what I said. I agree with most of it. As to whether the benefit of the P group is for all, I am skeptical. It begs the question, 'what *isn't* for the benefit of all?'. Can't think of anything... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jim_flanegin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still believe that long periods of time spent meditating are wonderful.Everyone should have that chance for a few months in a lifetime. Yes, absolutely! Gotta agree. Wonderful experience...not to be missed... Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still believe that long periods of time spent meditating are wonderful.Everyone should have that chance for a few months in a lifetime. I treasure the time I spent on long TM courses like teacher training or ATR's or courses. I think the traditional Tibetan culture pretty much allowed for that for all young men- say several years duriing a young man's early 20's. How that was funded I don't know - but the bread baking, jellymaking, weaving type of work might be a good idea for MD and Purusha who are so inclined. Many are now getting older, though. Are they provided with any health insurance? I wonder if they will find social security enough to get by (assuming they have contributed for a while). Knowing the compassionate history of the TMO I doubt very much if there are any health benefits in place or any sort of retirement account. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- jim_flanegin wrote: As to whether the benefit of the P group is for all, I am skeptical. It begs the question, 'what *isn't* for the benefit of all?'. Can't think of anything... Second-hand cigarette smoke? Regardless, you have a fortunate point of view! I don't discount the Purusha point of view because I subscribe to the notion of collective consciousness I picked up from Maharishi. That perspective allows for a subtle, unseen influence on relative life as a whole. It's mystical, I admit, but I have no reason to dump it. (Maybe people will suggest a few reasons following this post.) The collective consciousness theory allows for individuals and groups to raise collective consciousness higher in ways that show up in the relative world. For example, my neighbor once had to drive an hour and half into Boston to get organic meat. Now it's available down the road at the local supermarket. That shift in public demand may be attributed to rising collective consciousness, which may in turn be attributed to a spiritual awakening that many groups like to say is happening. Salads at McDonald's are another example. Reduced exposure to second-hand cigarette smoke is another. Are the Purushites superfluous? I kind of hope so, given the paucity of their numbers. But I'm not ready to dismiss their influence, either. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Peter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- wayback71 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still believe that long periods of time spent meditating are wonderful.Everyone should have that chance for a few months in a lifetime. I treasure the time I spent on long TM courses like teacher training or ATR's or courses. I think the traditional Tibetan culture pretty much allowed for that for all young men- say several years duriing a young man's early 20's. How that was funded I don't know - but the bread baking, jellymaking, weaving type of work might be a good idea for MD and Purusha who are so inclined. Many are now getting older, though. Are they provided with any health insurance? I wonder if they will find social security enough to get by (assuming they have contributed for a while). Knowing the compassionate history of the TMO I doubt very much if there are any health benefits in place or any sort of retirement account. *** Purusha/MD members are required to purchase health insurance while they are on the program -- at age 65, Medicare kicks in, if you have worked at least 40 quarters sometime in your life. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing that's fascinating to me is the trickle- down craziness involved with this. It's not just a case of some lazy fucks realizing that there is an easy way to avoid working, and that it's called begging. That's just one side of the phenomenon and of the conditioning. The other side of the conditioning is seen in the *sponsors*, the people who have been taught that there is some *benefit* to themselves that accrues when they pay so that these guys and gals never have to work. It's a remarkably symbiotic relationship; one side of the equation couldn't exist without the other. I know that a lot of people here and in spiritual trips in general just assume that this is all a given, and that it's always worked this way -- people who have chosen a full-time spiritual career being supported by those who have money and have chosen a more householder path. I'm challenging the very *idea* because I really believe that it's a *bad* idea, and that most of the problems that one can find in *any* spiritual tradition spring from this assumption, and from this practice. Historically, the spiritual traditions in which the monks or clergy pay their own way in life, and are *not* supported by the rank and file members of the organization, seem to me to be much cleaner and spiritually healthier. Just *think* about it for a moment -- it's one of the biggest scams in human history. In almost every era and in every tradition, all that you had to do to avoid getting a job like everybody else was to claim to be spiritual and get other people to pay so that you could be spiritual full time. I'm open to the possibility that many of these full-time teachers might have done a few nice things for the world, but when you look at it objectively, it's really quite amazing that no one really challenges the status quo of this whole scene and questions it. The meme of the rank-and-file rabble paying for the lives of the spiritual elite is that taken for granted, that ingrained in the collective consciousness. This is healthy questioning. The kind of giving where you buy yourself a good conscience and a better feeling of yourself by the giving, makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It could be healthy to ask oneself: why do I need to buy myself a good conscience? And who made the connection in people's minds between giving MONEY and buying themselves a benefit, be it a better life in the hereafter or better karma or a clear conscience? Could it possibly have been...uh... the people who were *receiving* the money? You can bet your booties it wasn't the people giving it. :-) snip The idea of people in spiritual organizations living luxurious lives through actively collecting support money feels disgusting. More often than not, it's justified either with He/She is a saint and thus deserves to live in comfort or He/She paid his/her dues living in caves in previous lives, and so this time around deserves a better life. The bottom line is always deserves. Even more disgusting feels the present trend in many organizations to collect money to charity purposes and then actually use at least part of that money to empire building for your organization and your own luxurious life. As I pointed out recently, this is exactly the story of the United Way. Less than 40 cents of each dollar they collect goes to actual charities; the rest goes to supporting the organization and paying its upper echelon fairly large salaries. Same thing, sadly, with many umbrella charitable organizations. And I think that anyone who has been following things here understands that the chances of any money they donate to the TM organization actually being used for the purpose that it's supposed to be used for are nil. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
There is another thing to remember about asking for ongoing support, especially with Purusha and MD. Part of this process for them involves writing letters and emails to their donors - giving inside and on the spot info about what is going on in the TMO. It is sweet and really involves the donor emotionally. However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing that's fascinating to me is the trickle- down craziness involved with this. It's not just a case of some lazy fucks realizing that there is an easy way to avoid working, and that it's called begging. That's just one side of the phenomenon and of the conditioning. The other side of the conditioning is seen in the *sponsors*, the people who have been taught that there is some *benefit* to themselves that accrues when they pay so that these guys and gals never have to work. It's a remarkably symbiotic relationship; one side of the equation couldn't exist without the other. I know that a lot of people here and in spiritual trips in general just assume that this is all a given, and that it's always worked this way -- people who have chosen a full-time spiritual career being supported by those who have money and have chosen a more householder path. I'm challenging the very *idea* because I really believe that it's a *bad* idea, and that most of the problems that one can find in *any* spiritual tradition spring from this assumption, and from this practice. Historically, the spiritual traditions in which the monks or clergy pay their own way in life, and are *not* supported by the rank and file members of the organization, seem to me to be much cleaner and spiritually healthier. Just *think* about it for a moment -- it's one of the biggest scams in human history. In almost every era and in every tradition, all that you had to do to avoid getting a job like everybody else was to claim to be spiritual and get other people to pay so that you could be spiritual full time. I'm open to the possibility that many of these full-time teachers might have done a few nice things for the world, but when you look at it objectively, it's really quite amazing that no one really challenges the status quo of this whole scene and questions it. The meme of the rank-and-file rabble paying for the lives of the spiritual elite is that taken for granted, that ingrained in the collective consciousness. This is healthy questioning. The kind of giving where you buy yourself a good conscience and a better feeling of yourself by the giving, makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It could be healthy to ask oneself: why do I need to buy myself a good conscience? A lot of developmental aid has been given to the developing countries, but how much has it really helped those people? Look at Africa? Could it be worse without the aid and interfering in the lives of those people by westerners in the name of charity. I am all for support for the poor and weak. Unfortunately this support often comes in a form that makes it possible for people to continue with the attitudes and lifestyle that has made them poor and weak. Basically the same applies for spiritual people. The idea of people in spiritual organizations living luxurious lives through actively collecting support money feels disgusting. Even more disgusting feels the present trend in many organizations to collect money to charity purposes and then actually use at least part of that money to empire building for your organization and your own luxurious life. Mother Theresa is often seen as an epitome of selfless giving. But was she really? She also powerfully preached against birth control. In other words she actively contributed to the situation that a lot of children are born to unbearable life-conditions. And then she created herself a halo by bringing a little bit relief to a few of those unfortunate beings. I have heard that Indian government doesn't like the work of her organization, because it attracts poor people to the big cities, which increases the problems of the slums. These people would be better off in their villages. We send food aid to people in hunger. And what is the result? These people breed like rabbits. The number of people living in unbearable conditions multiplies. And no incentive appears for them to
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
This assumes, wrongly IMO, that the people doing the giving want phony, glowing reports--in effect, mood-making over anything of substance. When I was a donor I would have given anything for a little honesty. It was the feeling of donating to a seriously flawed cause and to people who refused to deal with anything like reality that caused me to eventually stop. I doubt I was the only one. Sal On Jan 24, 2006, at 3:49 PM, wayback71 wrote: However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
We are on the same page, Sal. I too stopped giving ( and i never gave all that much), and one reason was the lack of honesty, the sense that everyone was pretending to one degree or another. The other reason I stopped is because I felt the entire TMO was off-track regarding money on every level and in every endeavor and for many many many years. I don't want to be a part of that or enable that. I like the idea that some people can help the world by being in a monastery-like environment, though. And for some the years of intensive meditation/yoga/quiet ought to help them grow and hopefully help world consciousness. Still, I heard MMY say on several occasions that NO westerners were cut out to be monks. It would be a stressful strain because it was not part of our culture or tradition. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This assumes, wrongly IMO, that the people doing the giving want phony, glowing reports--in effect, mood-making over anything of substance. When I was a donor I would have given anything for a little honesty. It was the feeling of donating to a seriously flawed cause and to people who refused to deal with anything like reality that caused me to eventually stop. I doubt I was the only one. Sal On Jan 24, 2006, at 3:49 PM, wayback71 wrote: However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
On Jan 24, 2006, at 4:13 PM, wayback71 wrote: We are on the same page, Sal. I too stopped giving ( and i never gave all that much), and one reason was the lack of honesty, the sense that everyone was pretending to one degree or another. The other reason I stopped is because I felt the entire TMO was off-track regarding money on every level and in every endeavor and for many many many years. I don't want to be a part of that or enable that. Nor did I. And it wasn't really just the $$ aspect of it, it was pretty much the whole crazy ball of wax. I like the idea that some people can help the world by being in a monastery-like environment, though. And for some the years of intensive meditation/yoga/quiet ought to help them grow and hopefully help world consciousness. Still, I heard MMY say on several occasions that NO westerners were cut out to be monks. It would be a stressful strain because it was not part of our culture or tradition.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
on 1/24/06 3:49 PM, wayback71 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is another thing to remember about asking for ongoing support, especially with Purusha and MD. Part of this process for them involves writing letters and emails to their donors - giving inside and on the spot info about what is going on in the TMO. It is sweet and really involves the donor emotionally. However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself. When I was on Purusha, I really disliked raising money from donors, but I was pretty good at it. I was into Desktop Publishing and so I started publishing a newsletter which I called News from Rick. It was sometimes 8 pages long, and I filled it with interesting stuff, some of which I wrote, some of which I picked up here and there. I had a bulk rate permit at the post office and a mailing list of over 250 people. A lot of people really liked it, told their friends, and I ended up with people on my list that I didn't even know. I didn't get large donations from any one person, although Dough Henning once gave me $500, but I got lots of small ones which added up to an amount sufficient to keep me on Purusha and provide spending money. But Bevan shut me down. He felt that since it looked so nice, it might be mistaken for an official Movement publication, and there was no telling what I might say in it. I considered putting a large picture of a fish on the front page, which would have distinguished it from any Movement publication I had ever seen, but I backed down and ended up publishing several plain vanilla, non-formatted editions before leaving Purusha. The reason I didn't like raising donations is that it altered my perception of people. It tainted my relationships with friends, and I couldn't walk into a room of movement people without scanning it for potential donors. I would have preferred that we started a bread baking or jelly making business like the Trappists and refrained from bugging people for money. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Irmeli Mattsson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The thing that's fascinating to me is the trickle- down craziness involved with this. It's not just a case of some lazy fucks realizing that there is an easy way to avoid working, and that it's called begging. That's just one side of the phenomenon and of the conditioning. The other side of the conditioning is seen in the *sponsors*, the people who have been taught that there is some *benefit* to themselves that accrues when they pay so that these guys and gals never have to work. It's a remarkably symbiotic relationship; one side of the equation couldn't exist without the other. I know that a lot of people here and in spiritual trips in general just assume that this is all a given, and that it's always worked this way -- people who have chosen a full-time spiritual career being supported by those who have money and have chosen a more householder path. I'm challenging the very *idea* because I really believe that it's a *bad* idea, and that most of the problems that one can find in *any* spiritual tradition spring from this assumption, and from this practice. Historically, the spiritual traditions in which the monks or clergy pay their own way in life, and are *not* supported by the rank and file members of the organization, seem to me to be much cleaner and spiritually healthier. Just *think* about it for a moment -- it's one of the biggest scams in human history. In almost every era and in every tradition, all that you had to do to avoid getting a job like everybody else was to claim to be spiritual and get other people to pay so that you could be spiritual full time. I'm open to the possibility that many of these full-time teachers might have done a few nice things for the world, but when you look at it objectively, it's really quite amazing that no one really challenges the status quo of this whole scene and questions it. The meme of the rank-and-file rabble paying for the lives of the spiritual elite is that taken for granted, that ingrained in the collective consciousness. This is healthy questioning. The kind of giving where you buy yourself a good conscience and a better feeling of yourself by the giving, makes me feel quite uncomfortable. It could be healthy to ask oneself: why do I need to buy myself a good conscience? A lot of developmental aid has been given to the developing countries, but how much has it really helped those people? Look at Africa? Could it be worse without the aid and interfering in the lives of those people by westerners in the name of charity. I am all for support for the poor and weak. Unfortunately this support often comes in a form that makes it possible for people to continue with the attitudes and lifestyle that has made them poor and weak. Basically the same applies for spiritual people. The idea of people in spiritual organizations living luxurious lives through actively collecting support money feels disgusting. Even more disgusting feels the present trend in many organizations to collect money to charity purposes and then actually use at least part of that money to empire building for your organization and your own luxurious life. Mother Theresa is often seen as an epitome of selfless giving. But was she really? She also powerfully preached against birth control. In other words she actively contributed to the situation that a lot of children are born to unbearable life-conditions. And then she created herself a halo by bringing a little bit relief to a few of those unfortunate beings. I have heard that Indian government doesn't like the work of her organization, because it attracts poor people to the big cities, which increases the problems of the slums. These people would be better off in their villages. We send food aid to people in hunger. And what is the result? These people breed like rabbits. The number of people living in unbearable conditions multiplies. And no incentive appears for them to change their values and attitudes and lifestyle, that has lead to their present problems. snip +++ Alot of the people don't realize or believe they are subject to the laws of nature that govern the animals. Too much of a concentration in one place exhausts all the rescources and they will have to move to a more favorable location or starve. You have to wonder if it is unkind to let someone be miserable if they insist on it. Again, my compliments on your English. N. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/24/06 3:49 PM, wayback71 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is another thing to remember about asking for ongoing support, especially with Purusha and MD. Part of this process for them involves writing letters and emails to their donors - giving inside and on the spot info about what is going on in the TMO. It is sweet and really involves the donor emotionally. However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself. When I was on Purusha, I really disliked raising money from donors, but I was pretty good at it. I was into Desktop Publishing and so I started publishing a newsletter which I called News from Rick. It was sometimes 8 pages long, and I filled it with interesting stuff, some of which I wrote, some of which I picked up here and there. I had a bulk rate permit at the post office and a mailing list of over 250 people. A lot of people really liked it, told their friends, and I ended up with people on my list that I didn't even know. I didn't get large donations from any one person, although Dough Henning once gave me $500, but I got lots of small ones which added up to an amount sufficient to keep me on Purusha and provide spending money. But Bevan shut me down. He felt that since it looked so nice, it might be mistaken for an official Movement publication, and there was no telling what I might say in it. I considered putting a large picture of a fish on the front page, which would have distinguished it from any Movement publication I had ever seen, but I backed down and ended up publishing several plain vanilla, non-formatted editions before leaving Purusha. The reason I didn't like raising donations is that it altered my perception of people. It tainted my relationships with friends, and I couldn't walk into a room of movement people without scanning it for potential donors. I would have preferred that we started a bread baking or jelly making business like the Trappists and refrained from bugging people for money. I never was on your list, Rick. But I did receive some really good letters when I donated to certain people. I never felt angry at the individuals asking for money because I knew they had been put in that awkward situation by the TMO higher ups. No one was ever pushy,altho I did sense sometimes that people might be giving me more attnetion in hopes of getting a donation. Mostly, I just started feeling uncomfortable with many aspects of the TMO itself, most of which have been discussed here many times. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Jan 24, 2006, at 4:13 PM, wayback71 wrote: We are on the same page, Sal. I too stopped giving ( and i never gave all that much), and one reason was the lack of honesty, the sense that everyone was pretending to one degree or another. The other reason I stopped is because I felt the entire TMO was off-track regarding money on every level and in every endeavor and for many many many years. I don't want to be a part of that or enable that. Nor did I. And it wasn't really just the $$ aspect of it, it was pretty much the whole crazy ball of wax. I like the idea that some people can help the world by being in a monastery-like environment, though. And for some the years of intensive meditation/yoga/quiet ought to help them grow and hopefully help world consciousness. Still, I heard MMY say on several occasions that NO westerners were cut out to be monks. It would be a stressful strain because it was not part of our culture or tradition. Yes, the whole concept of people living in supposedly rarified spiritual environments supported by others turns out to be quite a lie, in the case of the 'P' or 'MD' groups, for example. I like what Rick said about being more comfortable about the Trappist model, delivering bread and stuff. And I have no problem whatsoever with someone choosing to live a monastic life. Its just that we have all heard of liberated beings doing whatever they choose to do, and it surely wasn't their habits that got them there, or prevented their liberation. It is a dreamy and sugary thought to associate some sort of gentle pious life with liberation, but in fact there is no connection at all. None. I have grown the most spiritually by doing *exactly* what I choose to, whether that meant smoking or drinking or eating meat or contemplating such actions. All of this false piety leads to suffering in many cases, and does no good whatsoever, because it doesn't resolve the bonds of attachment, it only strengthens them through denial. Resolve attachment through transcendence, not denial. So as the phrase says-- eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Begging money and charity
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: on 1/24/06 3:49 PM, wayback71 at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There is another thing to remember about asking for ongoing support, especially with Purusha and MD. Part of this process for them involves writing letters and emails to their donors - giving inside and on the spot info about what is going on in the TMO. It is sweet and really involves the donor emotionally. However. this process means that the folks on Purusha and MD cannot be really honest about their own feelings. They are pretty much forced to give glowing, blissful reports so that their donors continue to contribute. Donations would dry up if the donor thought things weren't just great or complained or ever expressed misgivings. And the Purousha and MD people know that, even if subconsciously. This cycle perpetuates itself. When I was on Purusha, I really disliked raising money from donors, but I was pretty good at it. I was into Desktop Publishing and so I started publishing a newsletter which I called News from Rick. It was sometimes 8 pages long, and I filled it with interesting stuff, some of which I wrote, some of which I picked up here and there. I had a bulk rate permit at the post office and a mailing list of over 250 people. A lot of people really liked it, told their friends, and I ended up with people on my list that I didn't even know. I didn't get large donations from any one person, although Dough Henning once gave me $500, but I got lots of small ones which added up to an amount sufficient to keep me on Purusha and provide spending money. But Bevan shut me down. He felt that since it looked so nice, it might be mistaken for an official Movement publication, and there was no telling what I might say in it. I considered putting a large picture of a fish on the front page, which would have distinguished it from any Movement publication I had ever seen, but I backed down and ended up publishing several plain vanilla, non-formatted editions before leaving Purusha. The reason I didn't like raising donations is that it altered my perception of people. It tainted my relationships with friends, and I couldn't walk into a room of movement people without scanning it for potential donors. I would have preferred that we started a bread baking or jelly making business like the Trappists and refrained from bugging people for money. I still believe that long periods of time spent meditating are wonderful.Everyone should have that chance for a few months in a lifetime. I treasure the time I spent on long TM courses like teacher training or ATR's or courses. I think the traditional Tibetan culture pretty much allowed for that for all young men- say several years duriing a young man's early 20's. How that was funded I don't know - but the bread baking, jellymaking, weaving type of work might be a good idea for MD and Purusha who are so inclined. Many are now getting older, though. Are they provided with any health insurance? I wonder if they will find social security enough to get by (assuming they have contributed for a while). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Join modern day disciples reach the disfigured and poor with hope and healing http://us.click.yahoo.com/lMct6A/Vp3LAA/i1hLAA/UlWolB/TM ~- To subscribe, send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ and click 'Join This Group!' Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
