[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> > your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point 
I 
> > was making.
> 
> And that's the point I was following up on. 
> 
> It's the whole story of spirituality in a 
> microcosm. Some people have the personal 
> power to inspire others to improve their 
> lives and live them on a higher level. 
> 
> But most people don't, so they try to 
> accomplish the same thing by inventing 
> rules and punishments for those who don't 
> follow them.
> 
> The inspiration method often works because
> it's based on someone's very real personal 
> power. The rules method always fails because 
> it's based on the lack of it.
>
Nice insight- I would add that there is a third possibility too, 
which I have noticed personally-- Most of us were drawn to 
meditation to accomplish more in our lives, gain more personal 
power. Over the years after so much meditation we tend to take it 
for granted, and continue to operate just as we did before, or 
according to the more common models we see around us, like assuming 
that change is brought about by enforcement vs influence.

Often times when trying to accomplish something lately, I have found 
myself pushing for it almost too hard, and I have to just stop 
myself, settle into the silence a little, and my goal is reached. In 
other words let the environment do its work and unfold per my 
desire, rather than just drag a situation to fruition. Or try to 
enforce it.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I don't know how the long-term statistics will 
> turn out, but the one-day results could be inter-
> preted to mean that some people, learning that 
> they post way too much, seem to be able to exercise 
> some control over that trend. Others, shown the 
> same thing, become even more out of control. Go
> figure...

Or that:

(1) There were more conversations that day to which
they had something to contribute

(2) Their definition of "way too much" is not the
same as Barry's


> 
> 
> ** All searches done on Yahoo France, and 
> thus on September 14th, Paris time.
>






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> For me, seeing these stats made me realize that I've
> posted far too much here, and that I should stop
> doing that and post only when I've really got some-
> thing to say.

Have you considered the possibility that you
don't *have* as much to say as some others?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jyouells2000" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > TOTAL POSTS** 10/1-13: 1960  ***  10/14: 125
> > 
> 
> Don't you mean 9/1-13 and 9/14? Or is this some vedic 
> jyotish thing that I don't understand? :) 

Excellent point. :-)

You know what they say about there being three
kinds of people in this world -- those who can
do math and those who can't...

Consider the October 1st followup post header 
changed in advance to read:

TOTAL POSTS** 9/1-13: 1960  ***  9/14-30: 
--

:-) 

I think it'll be fascinating to see what those
followup statistics show. Will anyone actually 
change their posting habits, or not?

This "experiment" is very Buddhist in origin.
Their view of behavior is that it is very much 
based on free will. An individual is of course
influenced by his past trends and habits, but
can transcend them at any moment, and decide
to DO SOMETHING ELSE.

Therefore, if anyone looks at their post totals
and their corresponding percentage of total posts 
on the list and thinks that they're either posting 
too much or too little, they have the opportunity 
to change that. 

They have the *opportunity*, but will they take 
advantage of it? THAT is the question. Some of
the heaviest posters will realize that they've 
allowed their egos to run a little rampant and 
that they've basically been subjecting the other 
people here to their own need to hear themselves
talk (at least in cyberspeak), and they'll cut 
down the number of posts they make. Others, also 
among the heaviest posters, will decide instead 
that they have no need to cut down on their posts, 
and in fact may subject everyone else to even *more* 
of their egorants.

I don't really predict who will do what (although
I think we all have our suspicions about who will
fall into the latter category). I'm just inter-
ested in what the statistics themselves will show. 
As I said, I plan to post followup statistics for 
the rest of September at the beginning of October, 
and then I'll probably keep posting similar stats 
every month, just to keep track of who is posting
the most and who the least.

For the first half of September, if everyone were
posting with equal frequency, they'd have made 
45 posts or so each. The fact that some people feel
that it is their right to regularly post five to
six times that often is interesting, n'est-ce pas?

Traditional Buddhists would say that if this trend
continues over time (and it has -- the "top two"
posters have maintained the same averages for all
of 2006 so far), it demonstrates an ego and degree
of self-obsession that is as out of balance with 
normality as their percentage of personal posts 
is with normal levels of posting.

For me, seeing these stats made me realize that I've
posted far too much here, and that I should stop
doing that and post only when I've really got some-
thing to say. To that end, I'm going to try to avoid
obvious attempts to draw me into head-to-head ego
arguments (as new.morning is doing lately, and 
as others *always* do), and limit myself to saying 
what I've got to say and allowing it to stand on 
its own. 








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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[jyouells2000]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig"  wrote:
> >
> > Heh. The posting activity (or at least MY posting 
> > activity) on FFL comes in waves. You can't 
> > say ANYTHING about changes based on one day's data.
> 
> While this is true, a one-day scan for the top
> six posters in my EXPERIMENT post shows that
> two of them reduced their percentage of total 
> posts, one stayed at about the same percentage, 
> and the other three increased their percentage 
> of total posts. 
> 
> TOTAL POSTS** 10/1-13: 1960  ***  10/14: 125
> 
>
Don't you mean 9/1-13 and 9/14? Or is this some vedic 
jyotish thing that I don't understand? :) 

JohnY





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "sparaig" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Heh. The posting activity (or at least MY posting 
> activity) on FFL comes in waves. You can't 
> say ANYTHING about changes based on one day's data.

While this is true, a one-day scan for the top
six posters in my EXPERIMENT post shows that
two of them reduced their percentage of total 
posts, one stayed at about the same percentage, 
and the other three increased their percentage 
of total posts. 

TOTAL POSTS** 10/1-13: 1960  ***  10/14: 125

1. authfriend - 263 / 13.4% *** 19 / 15.2% (up 1.8%)
2. sparaig - 244 / 12.4% *** 15 / 12.0% (down 0.4%)
3. shempmcgurk - 145 / 7.4% *** 15 / 12.0% (up 4.6%)
4. new.morning - 89 / 4.5% *** 10 / 8.0% (up 3.5%)
5. TurquoiseB - 136 / 6.9% *** 5 / 4.0% (down 2.8%)
6. Rick Archer - 110 / 5.6% *** 4 / 3.2% (down 2.4%)

Although as you point out this doesn't say
much about longer-term trends, I think the 
question I asked in my original post is still 
relevant, especially in its Buddhist sense: "Does 
knowledge of one's posting habits affect those 
habits." 

I don't know how the long-term statistics will 
turn out, but the one-day results could be inter-
preted to mean that some people, learning that 
they post way too much, seem to be able to exercise 
some control over that trend. Others, shown the 
same thing, become even more out of control. Go
figure...


** All searches done on Yahoo France, and 
thus on September 14th, Paris time.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  wrote:
> >
> > Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> > your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point I 
> > was making.
> 
> And that's the point I was following up on. 
> 
> It's the whole story of spirituality in a 
> microcosm. 

Glad you KNOW that story. Definatively and in totality. 

> Some people have the personal 
> power to inspire others to improve their 
> lives and live them on a higher level. 

Do you feel that you have such power? 

Sorry if I don't have that charisma or power.

I simply pointed out we have some simple, common sense guidelines. 
And some have forgotten them. Sorry if that offended you.

 > But most people don't, so they try to 
> accomplish the same thing by inventing 
> rules 

The guidelines have existed for years, long before your arrival on the
shores of FFL.

>and punishments for those who don't 
> follow them.

If the voluntary collective determines someone to be in constant and
gross violations of the guidelines [implicitly] agreed to buy all upon
joining FFL,  then a one or two week suspension seems fair, ok and
appropriate. Punishments? You have a glass half full view IMO.

> The inspiration method often works [best]

Of course. All are agreed on this. The issue is what to do when
inspiration -- tried many times by many -- and ignored by brash
personalities -- is ineffective. And boorish "pissants" contineue to
flaunt the guidelines and appear to feel they are superior and above them?

> because
> it's based on someone's very real personal 
> power. 

OK fourth time you have punted on this question: Who is on a power
trip, and how are they powering? The suggestion, not mandate, is that
the collective, not an individual, weighs in on when someone is
grossly violating the long existing guidelines. 

>The rules method always fails because 
> it's based on the lack of it.

Lack of what?












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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point I 
> was making.

And that's the point I was following up on. 

It's the whole story of spirituality in a 
microcosm. Some people have the personal 
power to inspire others to improve their 
lives and live them on a higher level. 

But most people don't, so they try to 
accomplish the same thing by inventing 
rules and punishments for those who don't 
follow them.

The inspiration method often works because
it's based on someone's very real personal 
power. The rules method always fails because 
it's based on the lack of it.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim:
> > > it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such a set of
> > > guidelines and/or enforce them. 
> > > 
> > > Hardly onerous or hard to follow. Or do you really feel quite
> > > differently Jim? Make your case.
> > 
> > Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> > your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point I 
> > was making.
> 
> Its been less than 24 hours -- hard to claim a trend. But yes, I think
> posting behavior of the last 24 hours has improved remarkably.
> Perhaps, hopefully, simply bringing the existing guidelines to
> peoples' attention is all thats necesssary.  And on the new-guidelines
> front -- such as keeping Subject up to date -- "all is good" today. 
> 

Heh. The posting activity (or at least MY posting activity) on FFL comes in 
waves. You can't 
say ANYTHING about changes based on one day's data.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[Richard J. Williams]

new.morning wrote:

> Sort of like AMT. :)
> 
You mean this isn't AMT? You've got Shemp, Bob, Uncle Tantra, Judy,
Lawson, and Barry over here. Are there any rules on this forum? On
Usenet anyone can post anything they want to; so how did they get in?
Some people just feel better when they have someone to talk to, I guess.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin"  
wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> > wrote:
> > >
> > > Jim:
> > > it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such a 
set of
> > > guidelines and/or enforce them. 
> > > 
> > > Hardly onerous or hard to follow. Or do you really feel quite
> > > differently Jim? Make your case.
> > 
> > Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> > your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point 
I 
> > was making.
> 
> Its been less than 24 hours -- hard to claim a trend. But yes, I 
think
> posting behavior of the last 24 hours has improved remarkably.
> Perhaps, hopefully, simply bringing the existing guidelines to
> peoples' attention is all thats necesssary.  

Agreed, and thanks for doing that...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  
> wrote:
> >
> > Jim:
> > it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such a set of
> > guidelines and/or enforce them. 
> > 
> > Hardly onerous or hard to follow. Or do you really feel quite
> > differently Jim? Make your case.
> 
> Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
> your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point I 
> was making.

Its been less than 24 hours -- hard to claim a trend. But yes, I think
posting behavior of the last 24 hours has improved remarkably.
Perhaps, hopefully, simply bringing the existing guidelines to
peoples' attention is all thats necesssary.  And on the new-guidelines
front -- such as keeping Subject up to date -- "all is good" today. 

The guidelines are not rocket science. They are commmon sense, common
courtesy. Many posters "spontaneously" post in that way. For those
that don't, a reminder is good. And hopefully all thats necessary.

On the outer edge, if someone repeatedly and obnoxiously fluants the
the guidelines, aka being discourteous and rude on a sustained basis,
and five independent posters call him on it, I have no problem if that
person's rights to post are suspended for a week or two (they can
still read posts). 

Some people may need more than a carrot to act within within quite
broad and liberal posting guidelines. Hopefully not. Such a voluntary
call from "the collective" is hardly a power trip by anyone. Nor are
the guidelines onerous or oppressive. Those that make or imply such a
case are simply confused, or stiring up mud for their amusement. 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> Jim:
> it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such a set of
> guidelines and/or enforce them. 
> 
> 
> New.Morning comments:
> There are 15 existing guidelines for FFL, in place for years, that 
you
> implicitly agreed to follow when you signed up for FFL. You 
recieved a
> copy when yu signed up for FFL, and recieve a copy in your e-mail
> every month. Is it really undrealistic to expect people to follow 
some
> basic, simple and common sense "rules of the playground" that all 
who
> sign up for FFL have been asked to follow?
> 
> I suggested four new member guidelines, and three enforcement
> protocols for gross violators of the some of the existing 15.
> 
> Suggestion for new guidelines are: 
> a) Posts subjects should accurately reflect the subject matter in 
the
> post ... 
> b) Posts should have a short preface ... 
> c) Posts solely consisting of one-line reactions to the poster, ...
> should be taken off-line,... 
> d) If you want to discuss politics extensively, make a case as to 
its
> relevance ...
> 
> Hardly onerous or hard to follow. Or do you really feel quite
> differently Jim? Make your case.

Do you see any change in anyone's behavior here towards adopting 
your suggestions since you posted them? That was the only point I 
was making.





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "authfriend" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> 
> > Another thought: are those that use power words to
> > shut down rational conversation and diologue on a
> > power trip?
> 
> "Censorship" is another word that's used this way.

Yes. Thats the word / thread that got me thinking about "power words"
It was clear that the word was being used in quite dfferent ways. Yet
Turq repeated tried to invoke its "power" to shame and shut down
rational thought and discussion about the different connotations of
what was meant by the word -- and when limits on "total freedom" are
acccepted/acceptable, it appeared to me. "Censorship. 'nuff said. Case
closed."  But I lost interst in the thread 10 post down the line. 

> "True Believers" as well.

Yes. Though perhaps "true non-believers" has a bit if it too.

"Enlightenment' also has aspects of the "power word" dynamic, IMO. But
other related dynamics too. Not precicely parallel to the power words
thus far discussed..

As does/ did "Maharishi said", "against the laws of nature", ...
"tamasic" ...











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Another thought: are those that use power words to
> shut down rational conversation and diologue on a
> power trip?

"Censorship" is another word that's used this way.
"True Believers" as well.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> > >
> > > Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines,
> > > and asking how we can get back to the days when people
> > > spontaneously followed them -- how is that equivalent
> > > to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
> > > years?
> >
> > If all you had done was remind and try to
> > inspire people to remember those days, I
> > wouldn't have spoken up.
> >
> > You went further. You started talking
> > "enforcement," and even making suggestions
> > for how that enforcement should work.
> >
> > Power Trip.

Society has rules. Sometimes they are a drag. I am against many of the
current ones. Socially and politically, I venture that I support
far less rules than do you. You seem towards-socialist in your views.
Talk about rules and enforcement!

Regardless, lets look at a recent example. Rules for driving on a
particular side of the street. As you have noted, these are -- for you
-- not hard rules to follow. ~"Left or right, just tell me the rule,
and I can easily adopt." you told us.

Thus, I don't understand your visceral and psychically charged
reaction to "enforcement". In this example, should driving on the
right in the US simply be "encouraged" -- but getting right down to it
-- its should be, like, "but hey, we are all free beings doing our
thing! Rules are the man's power trip and should be ignored when not
convenient" ?

I tend to favor enfocement of laws that promote speed of use, safety
and reduced "externalities" -- unwanted side effects if you will.

What do you have when street side driving laws are not enforced:
INDIA! Where the horn is more important than the steering wheel -- and
traffic, at times, can entrophesize to primal chaos. And then it shuts
down. No one gets anywhere, every horn is blaring, tempers flare,
exaust is profuse, and sometimes its not even safe.

Sort of like AMT. :)

Is that your goal and vision for FFL?





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines
> 
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB  wrote:
> >
> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> > >
> > > Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines,
> > > and asking how we can get back to the days when people
> > > spontaneously followed them -- how is that equivalent
> > > to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
> > > years?
> >
> > If all you had done was remind and try to
> > inspire people to remember those days, I
> > wouldn't have spoken up.
> >
> > You went further. You started talking
> > "enforcement," and even making suggestions
> > for how that enforcement should work.
> >
> > Power Trip.

Society has rules. Sometimes they are a drag. I am against many of of
the current ones, sociallly and politically, I venture that I support
far less rules than do you. 

Regardless, lets look at a recent example. Rules for driving on a
particular side of the street. As you have noted, these are -- for you
-- not hard rules to follow. "left or right, just tell me the rule,
and I can easily adopt." 

Thus, I don't understand your visceral and psychically charged
reaction to "enforcement". In this example, should driving on the
right in the US simply be "encouraged" -- getting right down to it --
"but hey, we are all free beings doing our thing! Rules are the man's
power trip and should be ignored when not convenient" ? 

I tend to favor enfocement of laws that promote speed of use, safety
and reduced "externalities" -- unwanted side effects if you will.

What do you have when street side driving laws are not enforced:
INDIA! Where the horn is more important than the steering wheel -- and
traffic, at times, can entrophesize to primal chaos. And then it shuts
down. No one gets anywhere, every horn is blaring, tempers flare,
exaust is profuse, and sometimes its not even safe. 

Sort of like AMT. :)

Is that your goal and vision for FFL? 










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> >
> > Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines,
> > and asking how we can get back to the days when people
> > spontaneously followed them -- how is that equivalent
> > to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
> > years?
>
> If all you had done was remind and try to
> inspire people to remember those days, I
> wouldn't have spoken up.
>
> You went further. You started talking
> "enforcement," and even making suggestions
> for how that enforcement should work.
>
> Power Trip.

Sorry, Turq, use of "power words" such as "power trip" don't
intimidate me. I have grown-up beyond the 60's and have learned the
insidious effect of power words used to shut down conversatation and
rational thought.

The proposal I made yesterday is a "power to the people" initiative.
"Enforcement" is perhaps a bad word for 60's baby boomers -- some of
whom react viscerally and irrationally at the thought of rules and
the enforcement of such. Maybe we can sugar-coat and euphanize
"enforce" as "encouragement". But that is so TMO-ish.

Regardless, the "enforcement" of gross and constant violations of the
guidelines is not triggered by some power tripper or "the man", but by
the collective itself. By five independent posters.

Where is the "power trip" you see? Could it be in your head? Do you
think some "work" on that visceral response you have might be
warranted? 40 years is a long time to carry around the baggage of our
youths.

Another thought: are those that use power words to shut down rational
conversation and diologue on a power trip?











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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> >
> > Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines, 
> > and asking how we can get back to the days when people 
> > spontaneously followed them -- how is that equivalent 
> > to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
> > years?
> 
> If all you had done was remind and try to 
> inspire people to remember those days, I
> wouldn't have spoken up. 
> 
> You went further. You started talking
> "enforcement," and even making suggestions
> for how that enforcement should work. 
> 
> Power Trip.

Sorry, Turq, use of "power words" such as "power trip" don't
intimidate me. I have gwon-up beyond the 60's and have learned the
insidous effect of power words used to shut down conversatation and
rational thought. 

The proposal I made yesterday is a "power to the people" initiative. 
"Enforcement" is perhaps a bad word of 60's baby boomers -- some of
whom react viscerally and irrationally at the thought of rules and
their enforcement of such. Maybe we can sugar-coat and euphanize it as
"encouragement". But that is so TMO-ish. 

Regardless, the "enforcement" of gross and constant violations of the
guidelines is not triggered by some power tripper or "the man", but by
the collective itself. By five independent posters. 

Where is the "power trip" you see? Could it be in your head? Do you
think some "work" on that might be warranted? 40 years is a long time
to carry around the baggage of our youths.

Another thought: are those that use power words to shut down rational
conversation and diologue on a power trip?










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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines, 
> and asking how we can get back to the days when people 
> spontaneously followed them -- how is that equivalent 
> to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
> years?

If all you had done was remind and try to 
inspire people to remember those days, I
wouldn't have spoken up. 

You went further. You started talking
"enforcement," and even making suggestions
for how that enforcement should work. 

Power Trip.
  






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Jim:
> > it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such 
> > a set of guidelines and/or enforce them. 
> 
> Absolutely.
> 
> As nice it would be if FFL were a bit nicer, 
> I think most of us here have been around the 
> block enough times with the TMO to see that 
> any attempt to *make* it a nicer place by 
> creating more "guidelines" 

Fine. No more guidelines if that pleases you. How about simple abiding
by the 15 guidelines in place for years?

>and "enforcing" 
> them is Just Another Power Trip.

Just who is exerting power? and how?
 
> I think it's good every so often for people
> to speak up and try to inspire the other
> posters here to make the place as a whole 
> nicer by striving harder to be nice themselves. 

Always a good thing. 

> Trying to inspire people is rarely a Power 
> Trip and sometimes even works; trying to 
> browbeat 

Where is the browbeating. I have not said anything you have not siad
your selves at times: 

- FFL was / has been a great place (aka the way it was upon yur
discovery of it)

- FFL has done downhill since the arrival of the AMTers

I am suggesting a reason for that is that AMTers, and some others, are
not awre of, or are ignoring the guidelines that helped  create the
environment in FFL that you so cherised upon yur arrival.


> them with "guidelines" and 
> "enforcement" is pretty much always a 
> Power Trip and almost never works. 

Third time you have repeated "power trips"   What in my comments
"triggered' this, IMO, blind trasnformations of "suggestions to
improve FFL" into "powertrips"? Have you had bad experiences from
"powertrips" in the past? Have they made you over-sensitive to the
potential to power trips? 


> I mean...that's what the TMO does, right? 

Reminding people that there are 15 existing guidelines, and asking how
we can get back to the days when people spontaneously followed them --
how is that equivalent to the excesses [implied] of the TMO over the
years?
 
> All you have to do is look at that organi-
> zation and see how well that approach works. 
> Is that *really* what you want Fairfield 
> Life to become?

Quite the non-sequitur IMO.









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think it's good every so often for people
> to speak up and try to inspire the other
> posters here to make the place as a whole 
> nicer by striving harder to be nice themselves.

Have you been inspired by those who have spoken
up, Barry?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[TurquoiseB]

Jim:
> it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such 
> a set of guidelines and/or enforce them. 

Absolutely.

As nice it would be if FFL were a bit nicer, 
I think most of us here have been around the 
block enough times with the TMO to see that 
any attempt to *make* it a nicer place by 
creating more "guidelines" and "enforcing" 
them is Just Another Power Trip.

I think it's good every so often for people
to speak up and try to inspire the other
posters here to make the place as a whole 
nicer by striving harder to be nice themselves. 

Trying to inspire people is rarely a Power 
Trip and sometimes even works; trying to 
browbeat them with "guidelines" and 
"enforcement" is pretty much always a 
Power Trip and almost never works. 

I mean...that's what the TMO does, right? 

All you have to do is look at that organi-
zation and see how well that approach works. 
Is that *really* what you want Fairfield 
Life to become?









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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> on 9/14/06 1:14 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> >> > --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >> 
> >> > , "jim_flanegin" 
> >> > wrote:
> >>> >> 
> >>> >> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
> >>> 
> >>> >> , new.morning  wrote:
>  >>> What do YOU think? If you are concerned about FFL, or want to see it
>  >>> become "even" better, think about these points and express a
> >> > reasoned
>  >>> and considered view.
>  >>> 
> >>> >> I think its better of as the more or less free for all that it is.
> >>> >> Otherwise, it is easy enough to start your own group. I enjoy the way
> >>> >> this group constanttly morphs and changes. Also, it is unrealistic to
> >>> >> think anyone is going to follow such a set of guidelines and/or
> >>> >> enforce them. Sometimes its fun and sometimes not so much.
> >>> >> Conclusion: eh?
> >> > 
> >> > It's why I prefer FFL to alt.m.t, which had gotten
> >> > in a rut.
> > 
> Let¹s just be careful not to let FFL get into the same rut. New Morning¹s
> post may have been long, but it contained some good points. IMO, the
> ³invasion² of the alt.m.t folks has been a mixed blessing. Much has been
> contributed, but some good people have been driven away.
>

So why were they "good folk," as opposed to "bad folk," and just how can people 
be driven 
away from an online forum?







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

Jim:
it is unrealistic to think anyone is going to follow such a set of
guidelines and/or enforce them. 


New.Morning comments:
There are 15 existing guidelines for FFL, in place for years, that you
implicitly agreed to follow when you signed up for FFL. You recieved a
copy when yu signed up for FFL, and recieve a copy in your e-mail
every month. Is it really undrealistic to expect people to follow some
basic, simple and common sense "rules of the playground" that all who
sign up for FFL have been asked to follow?

I suggested four new member guidelines, and three enforcement
protocols for gross violators of the some of the existing 15.

Suggestion for new guidelines are: 
a) Posts subjects should accurately reflect the subject matter in the
post ... 
b) Posts should have a short preface ... 
c) Posts solely consisting of one-line reactions to the poster, ...
should be taken off-line,... 
d) If you want to discuss politics extensively, make a case as to its
relevance ...

Hardly onerous or hard to follow. Or do you really feel quite
differently Jim? Make your case.

In addition, I suggested three enforecement protrocols for which you
need to do nothing (other than make best efforts to follow the simple
existing guidelines). The enforcement protocols are focussed on gross
and constant violators of two of the most fundamental existing
guidelines: 
- "Be kind and respectful of others' viewpoints." 
- "be highly selective in quoting a message ...

and one dditonal one focussed on: 
- Nuturing Diversity of posters and POVs 


Judy:
It's why I prefer FFL to alt.m.t, which had gotten
in a rut.

New.Morning comments: 
I suggest the reason AMT is ruttier and more chaotic / bizzare (IMO)
is that there are no guidelines, AFAIR. The more positve manifest
aspects of FFL I suggest are at least partly due to a long tradition,
and core of abiding posters, who follow the simple FFL guidelines. If
the guidelines are abondoned, as in my view some new members have done
-- or never bought into --- then FFL will become AMT. 

Its evident in the stats: 40% of posts are now by four AMTers who are,
at times, gross violators of the guidelines. I suggest that their
sheer volume of posts, and the acidity and/or voidness of some of
them, have driven away many long-term posters -- and readers. 

And perhaps repelling new lurkers who are viewing us to see if this is
a place they would like to hang out and contribute. It seems to me
that membership has stalled in the last 6 months.


Rick:
Let¹s just be careful not to let FFL get into the same rut. New
Morning¹s post may have been long,

New.morning comments: 
an arduous 3-4 minute read :)

Rick:
but it contained some good points. IMO, the ³invasion² of the alt.m.t
folks has been a mixed blessing. Much has been contributed, but some
good people have been driven away.

New.morning comments: 
My vision is that if we can find away to create more of the old spirit
of FFL -- as reflected in the guidelines -- word will get out and some
of the former posters will return -- increasing the diversity of FFL
-- which may inturn draw new vibrant, insightful posters.

My suggested new guidelines is a brainstorming of "what can we do,
collectively" to improve FFL (because its going downhill, IMO). I am
not tied to these suggestions. If others have better ones, please
share them.








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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[Rick Archer]

Title: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines





on 9/14/06 1:14 AM, authfriend at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  
> , "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
> wrote:
>> 
>> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com  
>> , new.morning  wrote:
>>> What do YOU think? If you are concerned about FFL, or want to see it
>>> become "even" better, think about these points and express a 
> reasoned
>>> and considered view.
>>> 
>> I think its better of as the more or less free for all that it is. 
>> Otherwise, it is easy enough to start your own group. I enjoy the way 
>> this group constanttly morphs and changes. Also, it is unrealistic to 
>> think anyone is going to follow such a set of guidelines and/or 
>> enforce them. Sometimes its fun and sometimes not so much.
>> Conclusion: eh?
> 
> It's why I prefer FFL to alt.m.t, which had gotten
> in a rut.

Let’s just be careful not to let FFL get into the same rut. New Morning’s post may have been long, but it contained some good points. IMO, the “invasion” of the alt.m.t folks has been a mixed blessing. Much has been contributed, but some good people have been driven away.

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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "jim_flanegin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning  wrote:
> > What do YOU think? If you are concerned about FFL, or want to see it
> > become "even" better, think about these points and express a 
reasoned
> > and considered view.
> >
> I think its better of as the more or less free for all that it is. 
> Otherwise, it is easy enough to start your own group. I enjoy the way 
> this group constanttly morphs and changes. Also, it is unrealistic to 
> think anyone is going to follow such a set of guidelines and/or 
> enforce them. Sometimes its fun and sometimes not so much.
> Conclusion: eh?

It's why I prefer FFL to alt.m.t, which had gotten
in a rut.







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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[jim_flanegin]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What do YOU think? If you are concerned about FFL, or want to see it
> become "even" better, think about these points and express a reasoned
> and considered view.
>
I think its better of as the more or less free for all that it is. 
Otherwise, it is easy enough to start your own group. I enjoy the way 
this group constanttly morphs and changes. Also, it is unrealistic to 
think anyone is going to follow such a set of guidelines and/or 
enforce them. Sometimes its fun and sometimes not so much. Conclusion: 
eh?






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, "shempmcgurk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> You've got WAY too much time on your hands, new.morning.
> 
> I copied and pasted your tome below onto my word processing program 
> and did a word count: 1,250 words.
> 
> That's worth about 35 of Spare Egg's one-line postings.
> 
> If it was words that counted and not postings, you would be on top 
> of the list.

I suspect that was his point. If not, he's got WAAAY too mucht time on his 
hands...





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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So many guidelines are either ignored, or posters are ignorant of
> them, that some strong focus on them, and action -- via additional
> guidelines, is warranted, IMO.
> 
> "1) This group has long maintained a thoughtful and considerate tone.
> Please refrain from personal attacks, insults and excessive venting.
> "Speak the truth that is sweet" is a worthy aspiration. If angry, take
> some time to gain composure before writing or pushing the send button."
> 
> This guideline is regularly ignored. Particularly by AMT immigrants:
> Judy, Sparaig, Shemp, Barry -- and OffWorld, Peter Klutz, Nablus (at
> times as i recall). Though we all fall into the trap sometimes, FFL
> has become at times, a swamp of wrath, venting, invective, name
> calling, unstressing and simply bad manners. Many have commented on
> this. What can be done to reduce such boorish outbursts?
> 

Just how much invective do I use? And often, one-liners are all that is needed 
to make my 
point. In this case, three sentences are all that is required --including the 
self-referential 
commentary at the end!






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[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[shempmcgurk]

You've got WAY too much time on your hands, new.morning.

I copied and pasted your tome below onto my word processing program 
and did a word count: 1,250 words.

That's worth about 35 of Spare Egg's one-line postings.

If it was words that counted and not postings, you would be on top 
of the list.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, new.morning <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
wrote:
>
> So many guidelines are either ignored, or posters are ignorant of
> them, that some strong focus on them, and action -- via additional
> guidelines, is warranted, IMO.
> 
> "1) This group has long maintained a thoughtful and considerate 
tone.
> Please refrain from personal attacks, insults and excessive 
venting.
> "Speak the truth that is sweet" is a worthy aspiration. If angry, 
take
> some time to gain composure before writing or pushing the send 
button."
> 
> This guideline is regularly ignored. Particularly by AMT 
immigrants:
> Judy, Sparaig, Shemp, Barry -- and OffWorld, Peter Klutz, Nablus 
(at
> times as i recall). Though we all fall into the trap sometimes, FFL
> has become at times, a swamp of wrath, venting, invective, name
> calling, unstressing and simply bad manners. Many have commented on
> this. What can be done to reduce such boorish outbursts?
> 
> Its an important issue in that, IMO, this stree-fighting barrage of
> invective has driven many old time FFL posters and readers away, or
> greatly their reduced participation. "Bad posts drive out the good
> posts" as someone put it. If and when 30-50% of posts, or more, are
> "hate-fests" / 60's encounter groups, what insightful, kind, 
refined
> souls are going to stick around?
> 
> Periodic calls for more civil behavior are raised. Even pledges for
> better behavior are made. But things always slide back, often to 
even
> lower levels. Something more needs to be done, IMO.
> 
> "3) Please be highly selective in quoting a message to which you 
are
> responding, deleting all but the most relevant portions of the 
prior
> posts. This makes the daily digest easier to read for those who
> subscribe to it."
> 
> Sparaig is the most horrendous violator of this. Others too at 
times.
> Snip all but the most relevant parts of a referenced post. Now that
> links to the entire thread are displayed below each post, snipping 
ALL
> of the reference post makes sense in many cases. Highly selective
> quotes, and if necessary, links to the relevant post are effective,
> and signs of good writing and courteous posting. Leaving in 5 
pages of
> prior posts is simply slothful laziness.
> 
> Again, what to do about constant violators?
> 
> Complete ignoring of their posts? Perhaps. Though a rather crude
> solution, IMO, in that occiasionally such posters do post 
something of
> merit. Helping to train them to edit their posts would be more 
effective.
> 
> 
> "10) While friendly exchange between friends is natural, try to 
pass
> on personal messages via personal e-mail, refraining where possible
> from sending personal messages to the whole list."
> 
> Posts solely consisting of one-line reactions to the poster, such 
as
> "yup, "yes", "dude", as well, as 1:1 exchanges between posters 
should
> be taken off-line, via e-mail or Instant Messaging.
> 
> 
> 13) Discussions of politics that affect personal growth and world
> consciousness are allowed. However, be kind and respectful of 
others'
> viewpoints. Come with a humble heart, an open mind, and the desire 
to
> contribute constructively to everyone's broader awareness.
> 
> By implication, discussions of politics that do NOT affect personal
> growth and world consciousness are NOT allowed. If you want to 
discuss
> politics all day, ad naseum, make a case as to its relevance to
> personal growth and world consciousness. Or take it off-line. Or
> create a political group.
> 
> "However, be kind and respectful of others' viewpoints."
> This is violated so frequently, and so obnoxiously at times, that 
some
> chronic violators, IMO, should be suspended for 14-day periods. 
How to
> ID violators? I suggest "SOS" posts "Stop Obnoxious Stuff" by
> concerned readers. If a poster gets say 5 in a period of 1-2 days, 
the
> poster is suspended for two weeks.
> 
> "Come with a humble heart, an open mind, and the desire to 
contribute
> constructively to everyone's broader awareness."
> 
> Wow. Does anyone take this seriosuly? Lets try to abide. Or set up 
a
> new group with appropriate guidelines -- currently practiced by 
some
> posters: "Come with a black and ego-drenched heart, a closed mind, 
and
> the desire to trash everything and everyone in order to 
destructively
> womp on everyone's broader awareness."
> 
> 15) If you want to make suggestions for the refinement of these
> guidelines, please post it in the forum.
> 
> 
> Suggestion for new guidelines:
> 
> a) Posts subjects should accurately reflect the subject matter in 
the
> post. Often subject matter changes. When this occurs, posters 
should
> start a new thread, by clickin

[FairfieldLife] Re: Constant Ignoring or Ignorance of FFL Guidelines

[new . morning]

So many guidelines are either ignored, or posters are ignorant of
them, that some strong focus on them, and action -- via additional
guidelines, is warranted, IMO.

"1) This group has long maintained a thoughtful and considerate tone.
Please refrain from personal attacks, insults and excessive venting.
"Speak the truth that is sweet" is a worthy aspiration. If angry, take
some time to gain composure before writing or pushing the send button."

This guideline is regularly ignored. Particularly by AMT immigrants:
Judy, Sparaig, Shemp, Barry -- and OffWorld, Peter Klutz, Nablus (at
times as i recall). Though we all fall into the trap sometimes, FFL
has become at times, a swamp of wrath, venting, invective, name
calling, unstressing and simply bad manners. Many have commented on
this. What can be done to reduce such boorish outbursts?

Its an important issue in that, IMO, this stree-fighting barrage of
invective has driven many old time FFL posters and readers away, or
greatly their reduced participation. "Bad posts drive out the good
posts" as someone put it. If and when 30-50% of posts, or more, are
"hate-fests" / 60's encounter groups, what insightful, kind, refined
souls are going to stick around?

Periodic calls for more civil behavior are raised. Even pledges for
better behavior are made. But things always slide back, often to even
lower levels. Something more needs to be done, IMO.

"3) Please be highly selective in quoting a message to which you are
responding, deleting all but the most relevant portions of the prior
posts. This makes the daily digest easier to read for those who
subscribe to it."

Sparaig is the most horrendous violator of this. Others too at times.
Snip all but the most relevant parts of a referenced post. Now that
links to the entire thread are displayed below each post, snipping ALL
of the reference post makes sense in many cases. Highly selective
quotes, and if necessary, links to the relevant post are effective,
and signs of good writing and courteous posting. Leaving in 5 pages of
prior posts is simply slothful laziness.

Again, what to do about constant violators?

Complete ignoring of their posts? Perhaps. Though a rather crude
solution, IMO, in that occiasionally such posters do post something of
merit. Helping to train them to edit their posts would be more effective.


"10) While friendly exchange between friends is natural, try to pass
on personal messages via personal e-mail, refraining where possible
from sending personal messages to the whole list."

Posts solely consisting of one-line reactions to the poster, such as
"yup, "yes", "dude", as well, as 1:1 exchanges between posters should
be taken off-line, via e-mail or Instant Messaging.


13) Discussions of politics that affect personal growth and world
consciousness are allowed. However, be kind and respectful of others'
viewpoints. Come with a humble heart, an open mind, and the desire to
contribute constructively to everyone's broader awareness.

By implication, discussions of politics that do NOT affect personal
growth and world consciousness are NOT allowed. If you want to discuss
politics all day, ad naseum, make a case as to its relevance to
personal growth and world consciousness. Or take it off-line. Or
create a political group.

"However, be kind and respectful of others' viewpoints."
This is violated so frequently, and so obnoxiously at times, that some
chronic violators, IMO, should be suspended for 14-day periods. How to
ID violators? I suggest "SOS" posts "Stop Obnoxious Stuff" by
concerned readers. If a poster gets say 5 in a period of 1-2 days, the
poster is suspended for two weeks.

"Come with a humble heart, an open mind, and the desire to contribute
constructively to everyone's broader awareness."

Wow. Does anyone take this seriosuly? Lets try to abide. Or set up a
new group with appropriate guidelines -- currently practiced by some
posters: "Come with a black and ego-drenched heart, a closed mind, and
the desire to trash everything and everyone in order to destructively
womp on everyone's broader awareness."

15) If you want to make suggestions for the refinement of these
guidelines, please post it in the forum.


Suggestion for new guidelines:

a) Posts subjects should accurately reflect the subject matter in the
post. Often subject matter changes. When this occurs, posters should
start a new thread, by clicking on Post, and copying their post to the
new blank slate thread. (Simply changing the Subject heading, without
creating a "New Post", does not change the thread's subject. Posters
who do not change thread titles when called for, may have new subjects
made for them.

b) Posts should have a short preface, in bold, indicating broad topic
areas. Suggested prefaces -- SPIRITUAL: TMO: FF: POLITICS: NEWS:
COOL: ONE-LINER: BICKERING: NITPICKING:

[note: while the last three categories may not be embraced by some
posters, if their posts constantly fall into these areas, popular
demand, and even "auto