Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 12:29 AM -0500 1/16/11, Christopher Smith wrote: On Sat Jan 15, at SaturdayJan 15 11:46 PM, John Howell wrote: Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered from Mars is that he consistently used dotted half tied to half for full-bar notes. (And throughout divided the same way in the 5/4 sections.) And dotted whole tied to whole in the 5/2 sections. Of course the rhythm is divided that way consistently throughout, give or take some layering, but I remembered, correctly, that it does make it VERY easy to read. The second theme is five dotted-quarter/eighth patterns that divide two measures of 5/4 into 2+2+2+2+2, which frankly, makes it a little hard to conduct musically. But I agree that it is notated in the best way possible under the circumstances. Yes, that's the most obvious layering. But since it's superimposed over the consistent rhythmic ostinato, it isn't really a question of conducting that countermelody. When we did it our conductor simply kept the beat steady (very necessary to ensure getting the entrances right), and the countermelody figure really plays itself. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 15 Jan 2011, at 01:52, David W. Fenton wrote: 4/4+3/4 in a repeating pattern, and that would require time signature changes in the score (whether you displayed them or not), I've dealt with even this by having 7/4 bars, dotting the intermediate barlines down the parts with notes in them and faking the signature to 4+3/4. I'm not sure I'd finger Finale's problems with being measure-based here for the issue, as I think creating countable rests is something that transcends the issue of how the stuff is notated. As I said, I don't know how you rehearse without measure numbers... Like many composers, I encountered a 'barline crisis' and wrote a bit without. I came to the conclusion that players and listeners divide simple things up anyway and complex rhythms tend to easily overcome the 'tyranny'. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 15 Jan 2011, at 03:53, Raymond Horton wrote: Using the old vertical and horizontal bits for multi-measures may give you a warm feeling, but even the few players who know what they are do not generally bother to read them - they only read the number of total bars rest instead. If you don't believe me, send in some parts with only the symbols, and wait for the multiple Uh, question? to pop up. I've done it without numbers and have never met an orchestral player over here who doesn't know what they mean. They actually quite enjoy them. With numbers the meaning is quite clear, so the warm fuzzy feeling is a valid goal in a beautiful score. They are also standard practice for new brass and wind band music, at least in the UK. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
It's not that difficult. Try giving your viol ensemble facsimiles of the original parts (without barlines of course) and then — while playing — each player marks and/or _remembers_ the main cadences, which are then used as rehearsal marks. You can be pretty sure that this is the way they did it back in the good old days — and (very) occasionally one finds such markings in the parts. That there are not more of these is surely due to the fact that (1) musicians seem to have seldom carried pencils or other writing instruments with them, and (b) they had better memories than we do, living in an only partially alphabetized world. I have been using this trick for years with my ensembles — even with children — and it works perfectly. We've taken to calling such markings now places (Jetzt-Stellen), as someone, usually the leader, has to shout now!. Cheers! Eric Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de eric.f.fied...@t-online.de e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de On 15.01.2011, at 02:52, David W. Fenton wrote: As I said, I don't know how you rehearse without measure numbers... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
John, They couldn't. ;-) Somewhere in my readings I came across the remark by a theoretician of Philippe de Vitry's generation to the effect that the ancients (by which he means the Notre Dame and Petronian composers) used to spend hours arguing about whether a note should be sung long or short(!) In other words: although having the advantage of knowing the style of the music, they were not seldom just as stumped as we are today by the broken patterns of modal notation. Eric Habsburger Verlag Frankfurt (Dr. Fiedler) www.habsburgerverlag.de eric.f.fied...@t-online.de e.fied...@em.uni-frankfurt.de On 15.01.2011, at 03:08, John Howell wrote: What *I* marvel at is that anyone could sightread the previous rhythmic modes ... ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 2:21 PM +0100 1/15/11, Eric Fiedler wrote: John, They couldn't. ;-) Somewhere in my readings I came across the remark by a theoretician of Philippe de Vitry's generation to the effect that the ancients (by which he means the Notre Dame and Petronian composers) used to spend hours arguing about whether a note should be sung long or short(!) In other words: although having the advantage of knowing the style of the music, they were not seldom just as stumped as we are today by the broken patterns of modal notation. Eric Certainly true in part, since folks like Franco found it necessary to improve the system. But don't forget that in Ars Nova Philippe was doing a sales job for the new notational ideas he supported (and used), and that his generation was separated from the Notre Dame composers by over a century. (Although if Philippe really was the editor of the 1316 Roman de Fauvel it's obvious that he really did know the ancient repertoire very well indeed.) But you are exactly right to mention the broken patterns. As long as a given rhythmic mode remained in effect, everything was straightforward and could indeed be sightread. But when they broke the mode--most often as they approached a major cadence--it became a free-for-all! And many historians (and more theorists) tend to pass over the enormous influence the rhythmic modes had for many generations, including those of Franco, Petrus, Philippe and even Machaut. The conservative reaction to the introduction of imperfect (i.e. duple) time was quite vitriolic. And of course one has to assume that the Parisians didn't invent the rhythmic modes just as a theoretical exercise, but because they were already singing some music rhythmically but had no means to notate it. Composition and notation have leapfrogged each other throughout history. All the best, John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Planets score is at IMSLP.ORG On Jan 15, 2011 12:27 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). Definitely the latter, based on the fact that in duple time the rule is to divide the measure according to the natural subdivision (although in that case it results in two equal halves). I'm trying to remember what Holst did in The Planets, but I can't. But it made it easy to read and play. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 15 Jan 2011 at 13:44, John Howell wrote: And of course one has to assume that the Parisians didn't invent the rhythmic modes just as a theoretical exercise, but because they were already singing some music rhythmically but had no means to notate it. Composition and notation have leapfrogged each other throughout history. Actually, it's a bit more complex than that. Modal theory was developed to systematize a practice that already existed, and that had developed without a theory behind it. But not the WHOLE of modal theory. Some of the modes did not exist in the music at the time the theory was developed, and were only theorical concepts created to make a logical theoretical structure that fit the Medieval idea of how a theory should work. Mode 2 was invented as a necessary logical correspondent to Mode 1, and it's really quite rare in most of the modal music (if there's any evidence for it anywhere at all, in fact -- there are big arguments over this among modern scholars, of course). All the other modes are just elaborations of the distinction between modes 1 and 2 (subdivisions of the first two modes), so this follows through the other modes, as well. This is a case where musical practice was changed by theory, in that theory conceptualized a possibility that had not yet been used in actual music (mode 2), and then composers took the theory and (presumably -- that argument, again) started writing music based on the new theoretical concept. The evidence for all of this is quite difficult to divine, since first of all the system itself is so difficult to know unambiguously what was meant in the first place, but even that aside, because so many of the sources were copied later and show scribal interventions that disambiguate the old notation using Garlandian and Franconian notational elements that were available to these later scribes. So, in many cases, we don't know what the original notation would have looked like at all, and we also don't know if the later scribes were interpreting it correctly. In a sense, it's a situation like if we had only Brahms's piano transcription of the Bach Chaconne and had to attempt to reconstruct the original version from that. How much is from Brahms? How much is from Bach? And in the case of the later scribes, we don't even know if they properly understood the old modal notation, so their clarifications might very well misrepresent the original. And then we can't really firmly date all this stuff, so we can't say if mode 2 only appeared after a certain point, i.e., after the theories were developed. But to me, the story of the beginnings of rhythmic notation is a case where practice came first, but was soon significantly shaped by the theorizing of the practice, which opened up possibilities that did not yet exist in the practice, and which then started to be used in actual composition. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 15 Jan 2011 at 14:41, Eric Fiedler wrote: It's not that difficult. Try giving your viol ensemble facsimiles of the original parts (without barlines of course) and then while playing each player marks and/or _remembers_ the main cadences, which are then used as rehearsal marks. This would eat up a HUGE amount of rehearsal time. We have to spend enough time on the musical aspects of fitting things together without that. Secondly, the singers would have to spend a huge amount of time deciphering the Fraktur and figuring out which notes the syllables actually belonged under. Were we to ever again use original parts (we did it once 20 years ago, with very simple 4-part music that was barely contrapuntal, and the Tenebrae group that I was in 5 years ago also performed from copies of the facsimile of the Charpentier that we did -- I was the only one who didn't, since I had not free hands to turn the voluminous numbers of pages), it would have to be from edited parts. I think it would be fine for small pieces, but for a 25-minute work, as in the present instance, it just wouldn't work, in my opinion. And, of course, defining where the cadences are and putting in rehearsal marks there doesn't solve the problem of how to start at points between the cadences, in order to work out problems that occur there. You can be pretty sure that this is the way they did it back in the good old days and (very) occasionally one finds such markings in the parts. Well, the Fraktur problem is likely not one the people at the time would have had an issue with, and I'm sure there are lots of other things that would have made it substantially easier for them, such as an innate sense of the musical style that came from living in an age in which you mostly made music in only a couple of well-defined musical styles with well-known and familiar conventions. They wouldn't need to be told where cadences where That there are not more of these is surely due to the fact that (1) musicians seem to have seldom carried pencils or other writing instruments with them, and (b) they had better memories than we do, living in an only partially alphabetized world. I have been using this trick for years with my ensembles even with children and it works perfectly. We've taken to calling such markings now places (Jetzt-Stellen), as someone, usually the leader, has to shout now!. I'm sure it's a helpful thing in some respects, as I know that my group plays differently when playing from parts than when playing from score (it takes me longer to learn the piece when working from a part, but I more quickly understand how my part fits into the texture because I have to LISTEN to get it instead of LOOK). It's usually faster to work from score, but I feel like I play better ensemble- wise when playing from parts. This feeling doesn't seem to extend to all the members of our group, unfortunately! I've been shocked to note people who get lost and can't find their place when reading from SCORE (and it has included players whose principle instrument is keyboard, so it's not something about being hardwired to not read from multiple staves), so I'm not surprised at anything. No, the score and parts need to be as clear and unambiguous as possible so that rehearsal time is taken up with getting the notes off the page, not figuring out how the notes on the page relate to each other. I'm sure that if we played from original notation all the time, we'd develop lots of useful skills and it would be much easier, but I don't see any point in time at which we could take of a year or so of no performances and make the transition. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 2:50 PM -0500 1/15/11, Raymond Horton wrote: Planets score is at IMSLP.ORG On Jan 15, 2011 12:27 AM, John Howell john.how...@vt.edu wrote: I'm trying to remember what Holst did in The Planets, but I can't. But it made it easy to read and play. Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered from Mars is that he consistently used dotted half tied to half for full-bar notes. (And throughout divided the same way in the 5/4 sections.) And dotted whole tied to whole in the 5/2 sections. Of course the rhythm is divided that way consistently throughout, give or take some layering, but I remembered, correctly, that it does make it VERY easy to read. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On Sat Jan 15, at SaturdayJan 15 11:46 PM, John Howell wrote: Thanks, Ray. Yes, what I remembered from Mars is that he consistently used dotted half tied to half for full-bar notes. (And throughout divided the same way in the 5/4 sections.) And dotted whole tied to whole in the 5/2 sections. Of course the rhythm is divided that way consistently throughout, give or take some layering, but I remembered, correctly, that it does make it VERY easy to read. The second theme is five dotted-quarter/eighth patterns that divide two measures of 5/4 into 2+2+2+2+2, which frankly, makes it a little hard to conduct musically. But I agree that it is notated in the best way possible under the circumstances. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.netwrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single staff. Andrew On 15 January 2011 02:23, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.comwrote: I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Andrew Moschou Secretary Adelaide University Choral Society ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Hi Robert, I know it's tradition but it's one that feels awfully antiquated to me. I also disagree with Ross on 7/4: I have no problem using (non-centered) metrical whole rests in 7/4 -- in 4+3 or 3+4 subdivisions, they often help clarify the nature of the subdivision. And of course I use centered whole rests in empty measures of 7/4. YMMV, of course, but for contemporary work, whole rests for all empty measures, regardless of meter, seems to be the overwhelming norm. (Obviously this is influenced by notation software defaults, but I don't see a real problem here... ) Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 10:53 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.netwrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Hi Andrew, Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff. You have a point there. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single staff. Andrew On 15 January 2011 02:23, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.comwrote: I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Andrew Moschou Secretary Adelaide University Choral Society ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I would stipulate that if the practice is less prevalent now, it is primarily due to ignorance (caused among other things by notation program defaults) and the fact that 4/2 and longer meters are so extremely rare in contemporary music. That said, I expect most editors for major publishing houses would probably be well aware of the practice. As for 7/4, not only would I never use whole rests for partial measures, similarly I never use half-rests for partial measure in 7/8. I think doing so would lack clarity. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.netwrote: Hi Andrew, Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff. You have a point there. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single staff. Andrew On 15 January 2011 02:23, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Andrew Moschou Secretary Adelaide University Choral Society ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Hi Robert, As I said, my experience is that whole rests in 7/4 (and half rests in 7/8) increase clarity. If, for instance, the beaming pattern in 7/8 is 4+3, why *wouldn't* you use a half rest for the 4? The whole point is to help the reader see the 4+3 subdivision instantly, not obscure it. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:42 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: I would stipulate that if the practice is less prevalent now, it is primarily due to ignorance (caused among other things by notation program defaults) and the fact that 4/2 and longer meters are so extremely rare in contemporary music. That said, I expect most editors for major publishing houses would probably be well aware of the practice. As for 7/4, not only would I never use whole rests for partial measures, similarly I never use half-rests for partial measure in 7/8. I think doing so would lack clarity. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.netwrote: Hi Andrew, Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff. You have a point there. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single staff. Andrew On 15 January 2011 02:23, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: I sent a message about this from my iPhone but I think the list's spam filter must have caught it. Ross suggests that industry practice (obviously, when he was writing) was to use double-whole rests for 4/2 and longer meters. I would further extrapolate that quadruple whole (meaning a thick line that spans both 2nd and 3rd space) should be used for 4/1 up to 8/1, but that's a separate discussion. You can see an example in the *score* for the Brahms Requiem. All the empty bars in 4/2 meter have centered double-whole rests. Interestingly, the parts do not use double-whole rests. Rather, in those cases where there is a single bar of rest, a whole rest is used with a 1 centered over the staff. The 1 is never omitted, and that is an extremely significant detail, but that's not what I'm here to talk about. To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 9:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Really? Why? What is ambiguous about a centered whole rest in an empty measure of 4/2? If a whole rest appears in a non-empty measure, it won't be centered -- it will be attached to a beat. And, you know, there will also be notes in the measure. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 14 Jan 2011, at 4:13 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Andrew Moschou Secretary Adelaide University Choral Society ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I've had a look over my own scores which have 4/2 in them. In practice the single semibreve rest doesn't seem ambiguous. Especially with consecutive empty bars of 3/2 and 4/2 different whole bar rests look funny. Steve P. On 14 Jan 2011, at 16:42, Robert Patterson wrote: I would stipulate that if the practice is less prevalent now, it is primarily due to ignorance (caused among other things by notation program defaults) and the fact that 4/2 and longer meters are so extremely rare in contemporary music. That said, I expect most editors for major publishing houses would probably be well aware of the practice. As for 7/4, not only would I never use whole rests for partial measures, similarly I never use half-rests for partial measure in 7/8. I think doing so would lack clarity. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 10:26 AM, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.netwrote: ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
FWIW: The famous 11/4 bar in the Rite of Spring has regular whole rests in the tacet staves. As for use of half-rests in 7/8, etc., it's your music and (I presume) you aren't contending with an editor, so do it however you like. I do not do it that way, however. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 7:43 PM +1030 1/14/11, Andrew Moschou wrote: On 14 January 2011 08:54, Darcy James Argue djar...@earthlink.net wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Not in 4/2. Yes, I've been told that. My feeling is that only an idiot would fail to read a single whole rest in a measure as a full measure rest, but there seems to be some kind of rule that large-scale meters require more. Of course there used to be a rule (originating in the 13th century with Franco of Cologne, actually) that long rests had to be indicated by stacks of repeated and difficult-to-read individual rests. That persisted into the 19th century, but thank goodness we've grown out of it for the most part, thanks to multi-measure rests. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is archaic. I keep my critical edition of the Rite next to other notation manuals. Most situations are encountered in it. Raymond Horton On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:49 PM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: FWIW: The famous 11/4 bar in the Rite of Spring has regular whole rests in the tacet staves. As for use of half-rests in 7/8, etc., it's your music and (I presume) you aren't contending with an editor, so do it however you like. I do not do it that way, however. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is archaic. Hmmm. Says you. The 11/4 bar in the Rite notwithstanding, the last time I wrote a piece in 4/2, all of a sudden the double whole rest rule made a great deal of sense to me. Use it or don't, but I don't think any one of us is in a position to declare it archaic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically? On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 11:18 AM, Robert Patterson rob...@robertgpatterson.com wrote: On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is archaic. Hmmm. Says you. The 11/4 bar in the Rite notwithstanding, the last time I wrote a piece in 4/2, all of a sudden the double whole rest rule made a great deal of sense to me. Use it or don't, but I don't think any one of us is in a position to declare it archaic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 1/14/2011 11:18 AM, Andrew Moschou wrote: Yes, and the main reason is that a centred semibreve rest is practically identical to a semibreve rest on the second semibreve of a 4/2 bar. This is extremely confusing in contrapuntal writing, especially (but not exclusively) if multiple (two or three) voices are written on a single staff. Yes, but now we've gotten away from Darcy's statement about a centered whole rest being unambiguous in an otherwise empty bar, with which I agree. It's perfectly clear that if it's the only thing, it's obviously a whole measure rest -- nobody has a problem with it being in a 2/4 bar or a 3/4 bar and being confusing. But once you bring in the possibility of it being in a bar with other voices on a single staff, that bar is no longer otherwise empty and other steps must be taken to make sure that one of the voices has a full measure of silence. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
No, getting Finale to do it requires lots of extra manual steps. That's why it is understandable that many users may not see the value in it, especially since the practice is in flux. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 1/14/2011 11:26 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: Hi Andrew, Ah -- I hadn't considered the possibility of multiple voices on a single staff. You have a point there. But, in your defense, you did say otherwise empty or some such indication, and in a bar with multiple voices on the same staff, the whole rest won't be the only thing there so it doesn't negate your previous comment. I, too, think that in an otherwise empty bar the use of a whole rest is fine for any meter. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with a number. I like them! Steve P. On 14 Jan 2011, at 19:18, Robert Patterson wrote: On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is archaic. Hmmm. Says you. The 11/4 bar in the Rite notwithstanding, the last time I wrote a piece in 4/2, all of a sudden the double whole rest rule made a great deal of sense to me. Use it or don't, but I don't think any one of us is in a position to declare it archaic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Yes, you can get Finale to show a double-whole rest as the DEFAULT rest, but only for the entire document, so you will have to adopt other tactics if you have a changing time signature. Document OptionsNotes and RestsRest Characters scroll to Default Measure Rest and select character 227 (on my Mac!) If you end up manually entering double-whole rests instead in multiple empty bars in the score, you can apply Blank Notation staff style only to the parts, so that you can form multimeasure rests for those measures. Or you can have a separate score and parts file, which is what many opt for in any case. Christopher On Fri Jan 14, at FridayJan 14 2:40 PM, Robert Patterson wrote: No, getting Finale to do it requires lots of extra manual steps. That's why it is understandable that many users may not see the value in it, especially since the practice is in flux. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I do too. But I use them for up to 9 bars. I've seen some in published editions that go up to 32 bars or even more. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote: I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with a number. I like them! Steve P. On 14 Jan 2011, at 19:18, Robert Patterson wrote: On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote: Yes, the rule about needing more than a whole rest in larger meters is archaic. Hmmm. Says you. The 11/4 bar in the Rite notwithstanding, the last time I wrote a piece in 4/2, all of a sudden the double whole rest rule made a great deal of sense to me. Use it or don't, but I don't think any one of us is in a position to declare it archaic. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 1:19 PM -0800 1/14/11, Ryan wrote: I do too. But I use them for up to 9 bars. I've seen some in published editions that go up to 32 bars or even more. On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 12:26 PM, Steve Parker st...@pinkrat.co.uk wrote: I always use the 'archaic' multibar rests up to seven bars, with a number. I like them! Steve P. That's sort of a belt and suspenders approach. If you just use the stacked rests, you have to count them out by hand (and might miss your entrance if you count slowly!). If you put in a number, then you've used a multi-measure rest and don't NEED the stacked rests. But the practice goes back to the 13th century and was a necessary one in music in which barlines were never used. THAT is what makes it archaic, since using a number automatically makes it a multi-meaure rest. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 1/14/2011 2:30 PM, Ryan wrote: If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically? No -- Finale only creates multi-measure rests automatically if the measures are completely empty. Finale's default whole rests are not considered to be items, but any rests entered by the user are items in the measure and so the program doesn't consider the measures to be empty. Someone (Robert?) suggested that you could set the default whole measure rest that Finale places in empty measures to be a double-whole-rest, but if you have any sections where that wouldn't be appropriate you'd have problems. We could of course lobby MakeMusic to change the way that Finale determines empty measures so that if the only thing in the measure is a rest it is empty for purposes of multi-measure rests. That way we could use anything we wanted for any specific empty measure and it would still be included in multi-measure rests. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 Jan 2011 at 9:53, Robert Patterson wrote: To my eye, a whole rest in a 4/2 bar, even if it is centered, is ambiguous. That is because it also appears as a half-bar rest in that meter. In no shorter meter can a whole rest appear as a partial bar rest. Even in 6/2 or 7/4, Ross prescribes the use of half rests for all sub-parts of the bar. (Actually, Ross is silent about 7/4, but I am extrapolating from his comments.) Obviously, ymmv, but as evidenced by the Brahms example, double-whole rests were the industry standard for 4/2 meter in 19th century engraving. One of the issues with this problem is that the modern notation system was not really designed to handle the earlier notation. Brahms's music in this case is partaking of an archaic practice that persisted in church music (and almost nowhere else) of using white- note meters. I encounter this problem all the time in the music I'm transcribing, and I run hot and cold on it. Mostly, I'll change the default empty measure rest to double whole rest for all meters that exceed a dotted whole in length. But one of the big problems is that many such pieces have sections in 3/2 (or, more usually, 3/1) and that rest is not applicable. It would be nice if the default empty measure rest could be set with a staff style, and if it could be something other than just a single character (so you could have a dotted rest). That would save a tone of manual work entering rests and centering them by eye. A plug-in that did the latter would also be nice, but I don't know how hard it would be to create one that didn't still require manual tweaking. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 Jan 2011 at 13:40, Robert Patterson wrote: On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 1:30 PM, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote: If you use a double whole rest in successive measures, will Finale create the appropriate multi-measure rest automatically? No, getting Finale to do it requires lots of extra manual steps. That's why it is understandable that many users may not see the value in it, especially since the practice is in flux. Er, why wouldn't you change the default empty measure rest, instead of putting real rests in? Certainly that's not a perfect solution in cases where you have mixed meters, but you can easily choose as your default empty measure rest the one that corresponds to the one needed in most of the empty measures, and then you'll get proper multimeasure rests in your parts. As I said in another post, it would be nice if you could set the default empty measure rest in a staff style, so you could use different ones in different sections of the piece and still get proper multimeasure rests (and not have to muck about with manually positioning the real rests that you have to enter). -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 Jan 2011, at 22:43, David W. Fenton wrote: Unfortunately, there's one passage that alternates bars of 4/2 and 3/1, and so that's going to have to be written-out empty measures, as any kind of multi-measure rest would be way confusing. Not sure if relevant.. If strict alternation, then I've dealt with similar things by having a metre of [4/2+3/1] and for instruments with music at that point faking the signatures and barlines. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 Jan 2011 at 23:34, Steve Parker wrote: On 14 Jan 2011, at 22:43, David W. Fenton wrote: Unfortunately, there's one passage that alternates bars of 4/2 and 3/1, and so that's going to have to be written-out empty measures, as any kind of multi-measure rest would be way confusing. Not sure if relevant.. If strict alternation, then I've dealt with similar things by having a metre of [4/2+3/1] and for instruments with music at that point faking the signatures and barlines. Well, when I looked at this passage again, I wasn't convinced I'd barred it correctly. The first two pairs of 4/2 and 3/1 should be reversed, I think, but not all the pairs, so it's not strict alternation. It might just be simpler to notate the whole thing in 4/2, since the notes for the singers are mostly 16ths and 8ths. But the bass line clearly moves in quarters and halves in the meters I've chosen (when I got it right, of course). These kinds of things are very difficult. In the original context, the singers didn't have the bass line, just their own parts, and no barlines, while the organ player didn't have the singers' parts. I still marvel at the fact that they could keep this stuff together just by counting the right number of whole notes. -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 5:43 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Jan 2011 at 17:11, John Howell wrote: But the practice goes back to the 13th century and was a necessary one in music in which barlines were never used. THAT is what makes it archaic, since using a number automatically makes it a multi-meaure rest. I'm about to prepare parts on my Capricornus score (discussed on the last early last summer), and I have a dilemma -- the multi-measure rests will include time signature changes, so I'm going to have to break them up (I assume Finale will do that), but they are long measures, the standard being 4/2 and with 3/1, 6/2 and 9/2 (though 3/1 and 9/2 occur problematically only as the last measures of passages in 4/2 or 6/2, so that's relatively simple). I'm intending to put in multi-measure rests only for the standard meters (4/2 and 3/1) and write out the non-standard measures, and for the ones that occur at the end of a rest, I'm going to include vocal cues. I can certainly understand that as an editing dilemma. From what you say, I assume that the original did not have bar lines, so imposing your own bar lines--even if mixed meters reflect the music accurately--means that multi-measure rests would be incomprehensible if they tried to cross time signature changes. That's why I try to remove the barlines when I edit, if it's possible to do so without making things more confusing. But of course Finale (along with Sibelius and Mosaic) assumes that ALL music is divided into bars, so various kludges are needed to try to fool them. At least you're barring to the music, and not to an arbitrary meter that's imposed on it. New Music has many of the same problems. It's just that there were those two centuries of rather rigid meter between then and now. Which of course led composers like Beethoven and Schubert to rebel against the tyranny of the bar line! Sometimes you just can't win. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 14 Jan 2011 at 20:26, John Howell wrote: At 5:43 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Jan 2011 at 17:11, John Howell wrote: But the practice goes back to the 13th century and was a necessary one in music in which barlines were never used. THAT is what makes it archaic, since using a number automatically makes it a multi-meaure rest. I'm about to prepare parts on my Capricornus score (discussed on the last early last summer), and I have a dilemma -- the multi-measure rests will include time signature changes, so I'm going to have to break them up (I assume Finale will do that), but they are long measures, the standard being 4/2 and with 3/1, 6/2 and 9/2 (though 3/1 and 9/2 occur problematically only as the last measures of passages in 4/2 or 6/2, so that's relatively simple). I'm intending to put in multi-measure rests only for the standard meters (4/2 and 3/1) and write out the non-standard measures, and for the ones that occur at the end of a rest, I'm going to include vocal cues. I can certainly understand that as an editing dilemma. From what you say, I assume that the original did not have bar lines, Well, the organ part has barlines, every whole note. But none of the other parts have any barlines. But the music really isn't in 4/2 or 3/1 in every single place. so imposing your own bar lines--even if mixed meters reflect the music accurately--means that multi-measure rests would be incomprehensible if they tried to cross time signature changes. Abolutely. I'm more concerned with the instrumentalists being able to pick up where they are so they know when to come in. The structure of the piece means they can't just zone out: Sinfonia -- tutti (no singers) Solo arioso -- singers and continuo group Sinfonie da capo Accompanied arioso -- tutti Solo arioso Accompanied arios -- tutti This structure repeats five times, and everything would be easy except for the entry of the instrumentalists at the last tutti, since they have to know where to come in (it's not following a huge structural cadence, for instance). It's probably going to be OK, since the instrumentalists come in together (no contrapuntal entrances), so everybody just has to watch the treble viol player (the leader of the group). But I'm going to have to cue that in the treble viol part, so I might as well do it in all the parts so everybody won't have to watch the leader so intently. That's why I try to remove the barlines when I edit, if it's possible to do so without making things more confusing. But in rehearsal you still have to be able to say start at m. 34 or 3 bars before rehearsal B so you really can't get rid of the concept entirely, seems to me. But of course Finale (along with Sibelius and Mosaic) assumes that ALL music is divided into bars, so various kludges are needed to try to fool them. At least you're barring to the music, and not to an arbitrary meter that's imposed on it. You mean, unlike the original source... New Music has many of the same problems. It's just that there were those two centuries of rather rigid meter between then and now. Which of course led composers like Beethoven and Schubert to rebel against the tyranny of the bar line! Sometimes you just can't win. I think Finale automatically breaks multi-measure rests at time changes, so I won't have to do anything special here. If it were a recurring pattern, like the Westside Story America pattern, it would be kind of annoying, since you'd get no multimeasure rests at all (assuming you actually changed the meter with every measure from 6/8 to 3/4). The 6/8+3/4 example is too simple, as you might have 4/4+3/4 in a repeating pattern, and that would require time signature changes in the score (whether you displayed them or not), so you'd never get any multimeasure rests, but it would still be something that's quite easily counted. I'm not sure I'd finger Finale's problems with being measure-based here for the issue, as I think creating countable rests is something that transcends the issue of how the stuff is notated. As I said, I don't know how you rehearse without measure numbers... -- David W. Fentonhttp://dfenton.com David Fenton Associates http://dfenton.com/DFA/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 7:05 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote: I still marvel at the fact that they could keep this stuff together just by counting the right number of whole notes. Not necessarily whole notes (semibreves). Going back to the first mensural notation in the late 13th century, one has to keep track of perfections, always in triple time, always representing the value of a perfect longa (three breves), and almost always just as regular as later measures with bar lines. What *I* marvel at is that anyone could sightread the previous rhythmic modes, but whatever you grew up with always seems natural, and whatever you didn't always seems weird. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 8:52 PM -0500 1/14/11, David W. Fenton wrote: I'm not sure I'd finger Finale's problems with being measure-based here for the issue, as I think creating countable rests is something that transcends the issue of how the stuff is notated. As I said, I don't know how you rehearse without measure numbers... I cheat! That is, I retain some barlines, but hide them, at the points where I will clearly want to be able to start in rehearsals. And even though they're hidden, I can give them rehearsal marks. Of course I've primarily done this on vocal pieces, so I do put the parts into score format (so they can see where their entrances fall) and I don't extract individual voice parts, although I could for instruments doubling. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). Definitely the latter, based on the fact that in duple time the rule is to divide the measure according to the natural subdivision (although in that case it results in two equal halves). I'm trying to remember what Holst did in The Planets, but I can't. But it made it easy to read and play. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 2:06 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote: Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way to get that into Finale. Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree with most of you. Now, here's a follow-up: I'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a sequel to another piece he wrote in 5/4. Someone else engraved that other piece and used the whole-tied-to-quarter method. For consistency's sake, I'm wondering if I should follow the same convention. The composer is expecting these pieces to be paired together in performances. Paired together in performance is one thing, but will they be published together as two movements? John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 1/13/2011 3:57 PM, John Howell wrote: At 12:27 PM -0800 1/13/11, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). Definitely the latter, based on the fact that in duple time the rule is to divide the measure according to the natural subdivision (although in that case it results in two equal halves). I'm trying to remember what Holst did in The Planets, but I can't. But it made it easy to read and play. John I know Mars was 3+2, but the rest... You gotta just write what makes the music clear, is my opinion. cd -- http://members.cox.net/dershem/index.html http://dershem.livejournal.com/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
{Spam} Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 1/13/2011 3:27 PM, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). I much prefer option 2. -- David H. Bailey dhbai...@davidbaileymusicstudio.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
2. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 13 Jan 2011, at 3:27 PM, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
option 2) - always. Cheers, Lawrence On 13 January 2011 20:27, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Or, you could use Crumb's 5-beat note: .o. A whole note with a dot before and after.The thinking is - the dot before the note takes away half of the value of the dot after. Actually, I only saw this in smaller note values - 5/8 or 5/16. Like so many recent composers, Crumb prefers little notes. Raymond Horton On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz bath...@maltedmedia.com wrote: On Thu, January 13, 2011 3:27 pm, Ryan wrote: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? The rhythmic division. 1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1. The inner pair is more common, but the measure fill adheres to the underlying pulse. If the pulses differ in the different parts, then the nearest in character. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Even for a very clear 1+2+2 or 2+2+1 I would still treat it as 3+2 or 2+3 respectively for a 5 count note. Steve P. On 13 Jan 2011, at 21:02, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz wrote: On Thu, January 13, 2011 3:27 pm, Ryan wrote: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? The rhythmic division. 1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1. The inner pair is more common, but the measure fill adheres to the underlying pulse. If the pulses differ in the different parts, then the nearest in character. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 13 Jan 2011, at 20:27, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 Ugh... 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). Yes. Also never use a whole rest. If the division is unclear I usually divide 3+2. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way to get that into Finale. Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree with most of you. Now, here's a follow-up: I'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a sequel to another piece he wrote in 5/4. Someone else engraved that other piece and used the whole-tied-to-quarter method. For consistency's sake, I'm wondering if I should follow the same convention. The composer is expecting these pieces to be paired together in performances. On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.comwrote: Or, you could use Crumb's 5-beat note: .o. A whole note with a dot before and after.The thinking is - the dot before the note takes away half of the value of the dot after. Actually, I only saw this in smaller note values - 5/8 or 5/16. Like so many recent composers, Crumb prefers little notes. Raymond Horton On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz bath...@maltedmedia.com wrote: On Thu, January 13, 2011 3:27 pm, Ryan wrote: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? The rhythmic division. 1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1. The inner pair is more common, but the measure fill adheres to the underlying pulse. If the pulses differ in the different parts, then the nearest in character. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 13 Jan 2011, at 5:08 PM, Steve Parker wrote: Yes. Also never use a whole rest. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Offer to the other piece correctly for him (for a fee of course) Cheers, Lawrence On 13 January 2011 22:06, Ryan ry.squa...@gmail.com wrote: Raymond, I'd LOVE to use Crumb's notation, but there's no quick easy way to get that into Finale. Thanks for all your opinions. Seems like I agree with most of you. Now, here's a follow-up: I'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a sequel to another piece he wrote in 5/4. Someone else engraved that other piece and used the whole-tied-to-quarter method. For consistency's sake, I'm wondering if I should follow the same convention. The composer is expecting these pieces to be paired together in performances. On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 1:51 PM, Raymond Horton horton.raym...@gmail.com wrote: Or, you could use Crumb's 5-beat note: .o. A whole note with a dot before and after.The thinking is - the dot before the note takes away half of the value of the dot after. Actually, I only saw this in smaller note values - 5/8 or 5/16. Like so many recent composers, Crumb prefers little notes. Raymond Horton On Thu, Jan 13, 2011 at 4:02 PM, Dennis Bathory-Kitsz bath...@maltedmedia.com wrote: On Thu, January 13, 2011 3:27 pm, Ryan wrote: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? The rhythmic division. 1+4, 2+3, 3+2, 4+1. The inner pair is more common, but the measure fill adheres to the underlying pulse. If the pulses differ in the different parts, then the nearest in character. Dennis ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- Lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
Yes, I should have been clearer. [Quarter note followed by whole rest] and the opposite are what I meant. Steve P. On 13 Jan 2011, at 22:24, Darcy James Argue wrote: Centered whole rests are fine (what could be less ambiguous?) for empty measures in any meter. Cheers, - DJA - WEB: http://www.secretsocietymusic.org On 13 Jan 2011, at 5:08 PM, Steve Parker wrote: Yes. Also never use a whole rest. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
On 13 Jan 2011, at 22:06, Ryan wrote: 'm working on a piece in 5/4. The composer wrote this as kind of a sequel to another piece he wrote in 5/4. Someone else engraved that other piece and used the whole-tied-to-quarter method. For consistency's sake, I'm wondering if I should follow the same convention. How consistently are you following the rest of the style of the earlier piece? If closely then you may have justification. Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
At 10:08 PM + 1/13/11, Steve Parker wrote: On 13 Jan 2011, at 20:27, Ryan wrote: Opinion poll: What is your preferred method of writing a note that sounds for the duration of a 5/4 bar? 1) Using Whole tied to Quarter, regardless of wether the division is 3+2 or 2+3 Ugh... 2) Using a Halfs and Dotted Halfs tied to each other to reflect the division of the bar (whatever the case may be). Yes. Also never use a whole rest. If the division is unclear I usually divide 3+2. Isn't the convention to use a whole rest no matter the meter, at least up to something like 4/1 time? My feeling is that I would never NOT use a whole rest in 5/4. John -- John R. Howell, Assoc. Prof. of Music Virginia Tech Department of Music College of Liberal Arts Human Sciences Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A. 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:john.how...@vt.edu) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html We never play anything the same way once. Shelly Manne's definition of jazz musicians. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] whole notes in 5/4
I should have been clearer. If the entire bar is empty then a whole rest is needed. But I would never write [Quarter note followed by whole rest] or its opposite. Steve P. On 14 Jan 2011, at 00:09, John Howell wrote: Yes. Also never use a whole rest. If the division is unclear I usually divide 3+2. Isn't the convention to use a whole rest no matter the meter, at least up to something like 4/1 time? My feeling is that I would never NOT use a whole rest in 5/4. John ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
