Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
David W. Fenton schrieb: Now, I do think that the argument that PDF is now native to OS X is a persuasive one in terms of arguing what Finale should support on OS X. However, there is no such native support in Windows, nor do I know if the next major release of Windows, Longhorn, will incorporate PDF support. Given that MS is trying to create a competing standard, Metro (see http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,101 344,00.html, all on one line, of course), I strongly doubt it. Thus, MakeMusic would be required to support two completely different formats on the two different versions of Finale. That goes against the recent history of the design of Finale, which has been as far as possible identical in functionality on both Windows and Mac (though the UI may have slight variations appropriate to the platform). Finale always supported two different native graphics formats, TIFF and PICT. Eventually TIFF was included on the Mac platform as well, as the Mac uses that, too. But as far as I know Pict is only supported on the Mac platform. PDF will be the future for any graphics based app on the Mac, and I am pretty sure that Finale will eventually have to include PDF export. It's probably not even a big deal, as most of it would be handled by the OS anyway. Perhaps in 2k8. Johannes -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
On May 26, 2005, at 10:14 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: One the main uses I have had recently for EPS is taking small musical examples into a text article in Word. I did it in MacFin03, and it worked extremely well. It is difficult for me to see how PDF would have been any where near as convenient. The main difference is being able to select an arbitrary rectangle for exporting to EPS. I don't recall any way to do this with PDF. As Darcy pointed out to me recently (to my surprise!) you can crop a one-page PDF in pre-Tiger OSX Preview to any size you like. Multi-page PDFs need Tiger's Preview. But Word (nor AppleWorks) isn't PDF savvy, so it only imports a low-res preview that prints with jaggies. You need Pages or some other more modern layout program to import PDF's properly. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
Okay, that's an improvement. But it still isn't as convenient as the Graphics Tool. (That is, it is an extra step.) -Original Message- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] As Darcy pointed out to me recently (to my surprise!) you can crop a one-page PDF in pre-Tiger OSX Preview to any size you like. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
Hi Robert, I agree, it's an extra step, but since PDF export is very fast and (mostly) reliable, whereas EPS export is very slow and buggy, it's probably a *faster* extra step, and unlike EPS in FinMacOSX, PDF's are WYSIWYG. Of course, if you're importing into Word, the question is moot, because Word rasterizes imported PDFs. But if you're importing into Quark or InDesign or whatever, I don't really see the point of using EPS -- especially if you want to actually see the graphics you're placing. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 May 2005, at 10:43 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: Okay, that's an improvement. But it still isn't as convenient as the Graphics Tool. (That is, it is an extra step.) -Original Message- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] As Darcy pointed out to me recently (to my surprise!) you can crop a one-page PDF in pre-Tiger OSX Preview to any size you like. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
Well, for me this extra step is a killer. Ideally FinMac should get PDF export capabilities in the graphics tool, since PDF is the standard on MacOSX. Johannes Darcy James Argue schrieb: Hi Robert, I agree, it's an extra step, but since PDF export is very fast and (mostly) reliable, whereas EPS export is very slow and buggy, it's probably a *faster* extra step, and unlike EPS in FinMacOSX, PDF's are WYSIWYG. Of course, if you're importing into Word, the question is moot, because Word rasterizes imported PDFs. But if you're importing into Quark or InDesign or whatever, I don't really see the point of using EPS -- especially if you want to actually see the graphics you're placing. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 May 2005, at 10:43 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: Okay, that's an improvement. But it still isn't as convenient as the Graphics Tool. (That is, it is an extra step.) -Original Message- From: Christopher Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] As Darcy pointed out to me recently (to my surprise!) you can crop a one-page PDF in pre-Tiger OSX Preview to any size you like. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale -- http://www.musikmanufaktur.com http://www.camerata-berolinensis.de ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
On Wed, 25 May 2005 14:40:35 -0500, Paul Hayden wrote: 1. I'm still using FinMac 2004c (under OS X 10.3.5), but I've read that FinMac 2005 also gives you that font warning on _every_ single page you try to export as an EPS file. I'm so frustrated with this that I'm booting in OS 9 and using FinMac 2002 to do EPS exporting. I've developed a (somewhat kludgy) workaround for this that uses FinaleScript and QuicKeys in tandem. It will even batch-process a folder of files into EPS, but it requires a bit of user intervention. First, I use the following FinaleScript (idea compliments of Karen Guthery, with a few modifications by yours truly): //FinaleScript EPS Batch Export batch process folder graphics tool execute menu item Export Pages... save close //End Script After you set the desired folder, this will automatically hit Export Pages on every file in turn. On the first Export Pages dialog you will have to select EPS in the top drop-down and then start the QuicKeys macro. The QuicKeys macro asks how many files there are that it needs to process (so you need to have counted them in advance), and then it automatically clicks All and Generate Names From: on the first Export dialog. Then you also need to know how many pages are in each file, as it will use this number to know how many times to click Done in the Font Warning dialog. The upshot of all this is that, with minimal (albeit relatively constant, but if you're doing other work in the same room as the computer this is a minor inconvenience) user input and a bit of forethought, you can create EPS out of a folder of files in FinMac2k5. I have done this to great effect with a concert band score recently, and I think any bugs in the process have been sufficiently worked out. -- Brad Beyenhof [EMAIL PROTECTED] my blog: http://augmentedfourth.blogspot.com Life would be so much easier if only (3/2)^12=(2/1)^7. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
Maybe there is something I don't get. I work with Pagemaker (it would be the same with InDesign) for the book layout. I use a default document that has all the pages (eps) placed, so when I export eps from Finale to Pagemaker, it links the eps automatically, and every time I make corrections to the score I export the eps and open pagemaker to update the links. The eps are embedded in the document, so I can trash the eps as soon as they are linked. Now I don't see where having printed as pdf can help me, as I don't know how to relink automatically the pdf when it has been changed. Éric Dussault Le 05-05-26 à 11:50, Darcy James Argue a écrit : Hi Robert, I agree, it's an extra step, but since PDF export is very fast and (mostly) reliable, whereas EPS export is very slow and buggy, it's probably a *faster* extra step, and unlike EPS in FinMacOSX, PDF's are WYSIWYG. Of course, if you're importing into Word, the question is moot, because Word rasterizes imported PDFs. But if you're importing into Quark or InDesign or whatever, I don't really see the point of using EPS -- especially if you want to actually see the graphics you're placing. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
I'm not sure I'm following you, Eric. I'm not familiar with PageMaker, but any publishing app ought to be agnostic about file types. If it can embed EPS, it should be able to embed other graphic types, including PDF -- right? Have you tried importing PDFs into PageMaker? If so, how does its behavior differ as compared to importing EPS files? - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 26 May 2005, at 5:21 PM, Eric Dussault wrote: Maybe there is something I don't get. I work with Pagemaker (it would be the same with InDesign) for the book layout. I use a default document that has all the pages (eps) placed, so when I export eps from Finale to Pagemaker, it links the eps automatically, and every time I make corrections to the score I export the eps and open pagemaker to update the links. The eps are embedded in the document, so I can trash the eps as soon as they are linked. Now I don't see where having printed as pdf can help me, as I don't know how to relink automatically the pdf when it has been changed. Éric Dussault Le 05-05-26 à 11:50, Darcy James Argue a écrit : Hi Robert, I agree, it's an extra step, but since PDF export is very fast and (mostly) reliable, whereas EPS export is very slow and buggy, it's probably a *faster* extra step, and unlike EPS in FinMacOSX, PDF's are WYSIWYG. Of course, if you're importing into Word, the question is moot, because Word rasterizes imported PDFs. But if you're importing into Quark or InDesign or whatever, I don't really see the point of using EPS -- especially if you want to actually see the graphics you're placing. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
On 26 May 2005 at 18:57, Darcy James Argue wrote: I'm not sure I'm following you, Eric. I'm not familiar with PageMaker, but any publishing app ought to be agnostic about file types. If it can embed EPS, it should be able to embed other graphic types, including PDF -- right? I don't find your logic persuasive. EPS and PDF are definitely a different kind of graphics format than TIFF, JPEG, GIF, PNG, PICT and so forth. Both are wrappers around PostScript output, and PS is a *page* description language, not a graphics format. Yes, it's been adapted to devices other than printers (the ones that produce pages), with the advent of Display PostScript, but it's still a very, very different type of graphics format. And PDF, since it has a wrapper around it designed to make it a standalone file format (as opposed to EPS, which by defintion does not need to be standalone, as it's entirely designed for *embedding* in other documents, hence the name, of of course). Put another way, one is a document encapsulating PS, the other a graphic format encapsulating PS. Now, I do think that the argument that PDF is now native to OS X is a persuasive one in terms of arguing what Finale should support on OS X. However, there is no such native support in Windows, nor do I know if the next major release of Windows, Longhorn, will incorporate PDF support. Given that MS is trying to create a competing standard, Metro (see http://www.computerworld.com/softwaretopics/software/story/0,10801,101 344,00.html, all on one line, of course), I strongly doubt it. Thus, MakeMusic would be required to support two completely different formats on the two different versions of Finale. That goes against the recent history of the design of Finale, which has been as far as possible identical in functionality on both Windows and Mac (though the UI may have slight variations appropriate to the platform). But Metro does not appear to me to really be the same thing as PDF, as it is just a document format that can be rendered by browsers (XML with style sheets), rather than a wrapper around a page description language. This would make it considerably less suitable for embedding, I would think. Of course, MS is describing it as a page description language, but that looks like typical Microsoft FUD to me. On the other hand, it's pretty good FUD, since it does hit all the buzzwords necessary to replicate the functionality of PostScript as seen in OS X, and is said to be wrapped up with MS's Avalon technology (which is display technology, a response to Quartz and Display PostScript, if I'm reading it right). I hate Microsoft. On the other hand, I also hate Adobe Acrobat Reader. It has always been a steaming pile with a piss-poor user interface that really isn't very well designed for the task it is supposed to perform. Maybe a little competition would improve it, but I just don't see much utility in multiplying document formats like this. But I digress. It is relevant to the future of Finale, though, assuming MakeMusic is still producing Finale for Windows after the release of Longhorn. And it doesn't bode well for the possibility of cross-platform PDF embedding. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
The difference is that eps in Finale are single page files, and pdf are multi-pages files. Multi-pages are less flexible and more complicated to handle. It seems to be possible in pagemaker to work with mult-pages files but it needs a lot more work than just placing a generic eps link. Darcy, could you be more specific about how you handle multi-pages pdf into a DTP program. For me the goal is not placing the file, but create a workflow that is fast and reliable and so far I am not convinced that pdf are better than eps for what I do, but I could change my mind. Right now the way I work is that I export my eps always with the same number sequence (001, 002 etc.). The Pagemaker model I use already has the links for, let say, pages 1 to 99. When I export eps after that there is nothing more to do than open the pagemaker file (it automatically update the links) and create Title page, text and so on, and create a booklet for printing. I have seen so far nothing as easy and fast as that, but I am curious to learn other ways. Le 05-05-26 à 18:57, Darcy James Argue a écrit : I'm not sure I'm following you, Eric. I'm not familiar with PageMaker, but any publishing app ought to be agnostic about file types. If it can embed EPS, it should be able to embed other graphic types, including PDF -- right? Have you tried importing PDFs into PageMaker? If so, how does its behavior differ as compared to importing EPS files? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
On 26 May 2005, at 8:26 PM, Eric Dussault wrote: The difference is that eps in Finale are single page files, and pdf are multi-pages files. Eric, PDFs can be as many or as few pages as you want. It's just as easy to create a single-page PDF as it is to create a single-page EPS. (Easier, actually, because you don't have to deal with the font warnings and excessively long processing time.) If you want to export only a portion of a Finale page, it is admittedly slightly easier to use the graphics tool to create an EPS than it is to export a single-page PDF and crop it in Preview. But EPS's created from Finale in OS X don't display correctly on screen, whereas PDFs do. And PDFs created in OS X embed all necessary fonts, whereas Finale-created EPS's don't embed any fonts. Right now the way I work is that I export my eps always with the same number sequence (001, 002 etc.). The Pagemaker model I use already has the links for, let say, pages 1 to 99. When I export eps after that there is nothing more to do than open the pagemaker file (it automatically update the links) and create Title page, text and so on, and create a booklet for printing. I have seen so far nothing as easy and fast as that, but I am curious to learn other ways. Eric, like I said, I'm not familiar with PageMaker so I can't say what will work and what won't. Have you tried doing exactly the same thing with single-page PDFs? I was thinking of the more usual (for me, at least) use for EPS, which is to place musical examples in a text document. Given all the problems with EPS export in OS X -- not to mention the complete inability to use EPS export in Windows -- PDFs seem like a far superior solution, since they are (A) easy to create, (B) display correctly on screen, and (C) are portable, even to computers using a different font set. (Of course, all of this presumes that you are placing the PDFs into an application that handles PDFs correctly, i.e., not Word or AppleWorks.) - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
There are some things that don't work in Mac OSX. I have found that if I am using a font with more than 2 weights, only the regular and the next weight up, which might be semibold are incorporated, and the heavier weights seem to be inaccessible. I don't know how OSX font management works (I'm an OS9 Type 1 Font kind of guy), so I don't know if this is a Finale problem or an OSX problem. But other programs seem to handle these fonts OK (eg Adobe Stempel Schneidler, with Regular, Medium, Bold and Heavy). My regular modus operandi is to export eps from Finale into PageMaker to create books - I am mostly still using Finale 2003. (Except for guitar tablature, where I still use 2001 because the new way of making tablature still has serious problems, but that's another story). John Roberts On 5/25/05 12:55 PM, Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Robert, There are two main issues: 1) EPS export doesn't work in WinFin. This is a longstanding problem. 2) EPS export works in Mac OS X, but the onscreen graphic preview is very low quality compared to OS 9. The print quality, however, is fine. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 25 May 2005, at 11:21 AM, Robert Patterson wrote: Can someone explain to me the issues with EPS? I have seen several posts over recent months about EPS being broken but I didn't quite understand them. Is the problem that EPS files cannot be re-imported back into Finale with the Graphic tool? Is the problem with all EPS's or just EPS's created with Finale? Is the problem limited to one or the other OS Platform? And wasn't it fairly recently introduced (c. Fin04)? ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] EPS Issues (was: Including a graphic score in Finale)
Darcy James Argue [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 2) EPS export works in Mac OS X, but the onscreen graphic preview is very low quality compared to OS 9. The print quality, however, is fine. Other possible problems with EPS export on a Mac: 1. I'm still using FinMac 2004c (under OS X 10.3.5), but I've read that FinMac 2005 also gives you that font warning on _every_ single page you try to export as an EPS file. I'm so frustrated with this that I'm booting in OS 9 and using FinMac 2002 to do EPS exporting. 2. Maybe it's my ancient 'puter (PowerMac G4, 500 MHz), but EPS export is very, very slow using FinMac 2004c. It's fast, however, with FinMac 2002 under OS 9.2.2. Not directly related to EPS export, but FinMac 2002 under OS 9 is quite zippy, while FinMac 2004c under OS X is rather sluggish. Nothing that a few thousand dollars can't fix. :-\ Paul Hayden -- Magnolia Music Press http://www.paulhayden.com 6319 Riverbend Blvd. Baton Rouge, LA 70820 Fax (by arrangement) Voice: 225-769-9604 ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
