Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
On May 8, 2008, at 4:27 PM, Zeh Fernando wrote: But it's important to remember movies work well at 24fps because they capture slices of time and not static frames. An entire 1/24 of a second is present on each of those frames, while with computer graphics we have a moment frozen in time. You're right on the 'slice of time' aspect, but it is still a static frame (progressive). It's just that it captures motion blur. a good example is some parts of the animated movie Akira and specially Ghost in the Shell, where they created the original cut at 60fps or 120fps (!) and then frame blended back into 24 to give the impression it was a movie. That's because they didn't have the ability to 'render' motion blur. You wouldn't do that today though because there are other efficient ways around that (optical flow is one example). - jon Post • Central Visual FX | Animation | Interactive 170 Linden Oaks, Suite B | Rochester, NY | 14625 P: 585.385.1530 x273 | F: 585.218.9219 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.postcentral.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
On May 7, 2008, at 1:06 PM, Steven Sacks wrote: The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. That's not an accurate generalization. Higher frame rate != smoother display in all cases. It matters for progressive elements (flash movies, games like Quake) but that statement is not applicable to other forms of media. If you take a time-based animation inside a 30fps movie and a 60 fps movie, the 60 fps version will look a lot smoother. In Flash yes. I just want to say for the record that this argument has absolutely nothing to do with braodcast/animation work. In the context of Flash, sure, it will look smoother. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. Fact for a limited set of time-based animation systems - primarily games and content like Flash that display progressive frames without motion blur. - jon Post • Central Visual FX | Animation | Interactive 170 Linden Oaks, Suite B | Rochester, NY | 14625 P: 585.385.1530 x273 | F: 585.218.9219 [EMAIL PROTECTED] | www.postcentral.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
RE: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. No, in most cases, yes, but performace on some machines can actually cause it to drop frames and look even choppier than a lower framerate. It all depends on what kind of animation is occuring, what media elements are involved, and what the hardware of the end user's machine is like. Jason Merrill Bank of America Global Technology Operations LLD eTools Multimedia Join the Bank of America Flash Platform Developer Community Are you a Bank of America associate interested in innovative learning ideas and technologies? Check out our internal GTO Innovative Learning Blog subscribe. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
I've only had a chance to glance at this thread, but it seems that most of the replies are leaning this way. I agree with what appears to be the majority sentiment, expressed most recently by Jason. Many things will cause performance to suffer with a higher frame rate. Injudicious use of bitmap caching, large looping tasks... pretty much anything that requires a heavy load every enter frame. The higher the frame rate, the more often those tasks have to execute, and the less time you're giving them to do the execution. My rule of thumb is, there's no rule of thumb. Try 12, 18, 24, 31, etc. Don't expect to get consistent real world experience higher than the 18-31 frame range. There are lots of test files out there, that show high FPS but not on every machine, etc. On 5/8/08 10:52 AM, Merrill, Jason wrote: No, in most cases, yes, but performace on some machines can actually cause it to drop frames and look even choppier than a lower framerate. It all depends on what kind of animation is occuring, what media elements are involved, and what the hardware of the end user's machine is like. Rich http://www.LearningActionScript3.com ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Depends on the browser. Different browsers choke plugins in different ways. Two links: http://graphics-geek.blogspot.com/2008/04/off-bubblemark.html http://www.kaourantin.net/2006/05/frame-rates-in-flash-player.html Film is at 24fps... Disney animation, so compelling, was two-up, or twelve frames per second. Most of the bloated flash or flash cpu complaints out there are (I think) due to background ads with greedy framerates. It's best to be polite, and only take the processor cycles you really need. Others may be trying to use that processor too. But it's important to remember movies work well at 24fps because they capture slices of time and not static frames. An entire 1/24 of a second is present on each of those frames, while with computer graphics we have a moment frozen in time. Animation usually have lower framerates because of practical reasons: drawing too many keyframes would be an excruciating job. However, sometimes, when they want to achieve some better quality, they do push it over the top, and *then* combine back into the target framerate of 24fps; a good example is some parts of the animated movie Akira and specially Ghost in the Shell, where they created the original cut at 60fps or 120fps (!) and then frame blended back into 24 to give the impression it was a movie. Using more than 30fps on a flash movie gives a similar impression to our eye, although we're really limited to the display frequency as mentioned. So going over 60fps doesn't make much sense... but while I do agree it's best to be polite, thinking 24fps is everything we need on computer rendered graphics with no real motion blur is a myth. More framerate will give us a better result. Zeh ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [SPAM] Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Google flash magic framerate I have no idea if this still stands with the current Flash Player and the new VM, but there used to be magic framerates that worked better than +1 or -1 fps from those magic framerates, especially on the MAC. Those magic framerates all ended with 1: 21, 31, 41, etc.. http://www.brajeshwar.com/2004/magic-framerate/ This is something that goes way back (note the year in the url) so I'm not sure it still stands. Might be a good thing to find out actually.. Since this is a rather old trick I can't seem to dig up much relevant articles/threads on this. If someone knows of some old blog posts/list threads, please post. I currently use 31 fps both for Flash and Flex. regards, Muzak - Original Message - From: Zeh Fernando [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Flash Coders List flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2008 10:27 PM Subject: [SPAM] Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser? Depends on the browser. Different browsers choke plugins in different ways. Two links: http://graphics-geek.blogspot.com/2008/04/off-bubblemark.html http://www.kaourantin.net/2006/05/frame-rates-in-flash-player.html Film is at 24fps... Disney animation, so compelling, was two-up, or twelve frames per second. Most of the bloated flash or flash cpu complaints out there are (I think) due to background ads with greedy framerates. It's best to be polite, and only take the processor cycles you really need. Others may be trying to use that processor too. But it's important to remember movies work well at 24fps because they capture slices of time and not static frames. An entire 1/24 of a second is present on each of those frames, while with computer graphics we have a moment frozen in time. Animation usually have lower framerates because of practical reasons: drawing too many keyframes would be an excruciating job. However, sometimes, when they want to achieve some better quality, they do push it over the top, and *then* combine back into the target framerate of 24fps; a good example is some parts of the animated movie Akira and specially Ghost in the Shell, where they created the original cut at 60fps or 120fps (!) and then frame blended back into 24 to give the impression it was a movie. Using more than 30fps on a flash movie gives a similar impression to our eye, although we're really limited to the display frequency as mentioned. So going over 60fps doesn't make much sense... but while I do agree it's best to be polite, thinking 24fps is everything we need on computer rendered graphics with no real motion blur is a myth. More framerate will give us a better result. Zeh ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Maybe this is what your after? http://www.craftymind.com/2008/04/18/updated-elastic-racetrack-for-flash-9-and-avm2/ On May 7, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Sander Schuurman wrote: Hi, Just came across some limitations on the fps of a flash movie inside a browser. I've read on the internet some messages about the limit to be at around 60? But my tests got stuck at around 33 fps, it begins at around 57, but drops within a few seconds to around 33... Anyone can shine a light on this subject? Thnx in advance, Sander Schuurman ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Hi, The thing is, when you set a FPS value, you're setting an upper limit. It's like telling the player not to play more than n frames per second. But the actual frame rate depends on the available resources. If you're doing something rather processor intensive, the player is likely to start dropping frames. By the way, in most cases setting a FPS above 30 doesn't make much sense (bear in mind that a NTSC video signal runs at 30 FPS, and a PAL one at 25 FPS). And it will only worsen frame-dropping problem, if you already have one. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/5/7, Sander Schuurman [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Hi, Just came across some limitations on the fps of a flash movie inside a browser. I've read on the internet some messages about the limit to be at around 60? But my tests got stuck at around 33 fps, it begins at around 57, but drops within a few seconds to around 33... Anyone can shine a light on this subject? Thnx in advance, Sander Schuurman ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Great article, thanks for the link. 2008/5/7, Sidney de Koning [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Maybe this is what your after? http://www.craftymind.com/2008/04/18/updated-elastic-racetrack-for-flash-9-and-avm2/ On May 7, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Sander Schuurman wrote: Hi, Just came across some limitations on the fps of a flash movie inside a browser. I've read on the internet some messages about the limit to be at around 60? But my tests got stuck at around 33 fps, it begins at around 57, but drops within a few seconds to around 33... Anyone can shine a light on this subject? Thnx in advance, Sander Schuurman ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
No problem :) This article really clarified a lot for me. Sid. On May 7, 2008, at 3:20 PM, Juan Pablo Califano wrote: Great article, thanks for the link. 2008/5/7, Sidney de Koning [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Maybe this is what your after? http://www.craftymind.com/2008/04/18/updated-elastic-racetrack-for-flash-9-and-avm2/ On May 7, 2008, at 2:07 PM, Sander Schuurman wrote: Hi, Just came across some limitations on the fps of a flash movie inside a browser. I've read on the internet some messages about the limit to be at around 60? But my tests got stuck at around 33 fps, it begins at around 57, but drops within a few seconds to around 33... Anyone can shine a light on this subject? Thnx in advance, Sander Schuurman ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Juan Pablo Califano wrote: By the way, in most cases setting a FPS above 30 doesn't make much sense (bear in mind that a NTSC video signal runs at 30 FPS, and a PAL one at 25 FPS). And it will only worsen frame-dropping problem, if you already have one. I'm awfully tired of hearing this argument put forth by people. If this had even a remote possibility of truth then Nvidia and ATI would be out of business. Obviously, they're not. In fact, the competition is fierce over something that you claim makes no sense. The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. If you take a time-based animation inside a 30fps movie and a 60 fps movie, the 60 fps version will look a lot smoother. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
On Wednesday 07 May 2008 14:06:43 Steven Sacks wrote: The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. If you take a time-based animation inside a 30fps movie and a 60 fps movie, the 60 fps version will look a lot smoother. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. It actually depends on the monitor or screen you're running your movie. In my case, my monitor's refresh rate is at 60Hz, so anything over 60fps will not make it any smoother. If you're running at a TV with a refresh rate of 25Hz, then anything over 25fps is useless. Actually, a small testing program (glxgears) issues 2694fps in my machine, however if I enable sync to vblank in my video card - that is, making graphic applications refresh at the same rate as my monitor - the same program running at 60fps looks indeed smoother than at 2694fps (because you can't divide 2694 by 60 and get an integer, meaning that eventually the rendering engine will have to delay or advance a frame, so I don't get a blank). ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
On Wed, May 07, 2008 at 10:06:43AM -0700, Steven Sacks wrote: The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. If you take a time-based animation inside a 30fps movie and a 60 fps movie, the 60 fps version will look a lot smoother. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. If a frame takes MORE to render (or execute associated actions) then another, the rendering will NOT be smooter, just going fast and slow depending on frame number, which isn't smooth... --strk; ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
Re: [Flashcoders] FPS limit of flash player inside browser?
Ok, I might be wrong about the smothness, I just don't seen any difference, but that can be subjective. However, using a higher frame rate does put more burden on the rendering routines, so if you already have a problem with frames being dropped, it will only get worse by incrementing de FPS. Cheers Juan Pablo Califano 2008/5/7, Steven Sacks [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Juan Pablo Califano wrote: By the way, in most cases setting a FPS above 30 doesn't make much sense (bear in mind that a NTSC video signal runs at 30 FPS, and a PAL one at 25 FPS). And it will only worsen frame-dropping problem, if you already have one. I'm awfully tired of hearing this argument put forth by people. If this had even a remote possibility of truth then Nvidia and ATI would be out of business. Obviously, they're not. In fact, the competition is fierce over something that you claim makes no sense. The fact of the matter is, running at a higher frame rate makes things look smoother. Period, end of statement. If you take a time-based animation inside a 30fps movie and a 60 fps movie, the 60 fps version will look a lot smoother. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders ___ Flashcoders mailing list Flashcoders@chattyfig.figleaf.com http://chattyfig.figleaf.com/mailman/listinfo/flashcoders
