[flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
it gives us a better understanding of how the product is being used, the sorts of problems people are facing, and so on, by interacting with real users rather than 'customers'. ... and participating in this forum is not necessarily a part of our job. And we love you for it! ;-) -Josh Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
isn't that the interview room :) On Apr 1, 2005 7:33 PM, Steven Webster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: customer. (Even though they may have a mugshot in their interview rooms reading DO NOT HIRE THIS CLOWN) You sure it's the interview room ? I saw it hanging beside the pool table. ;) -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 266.9.0 - Release Date: 31/03/2005 Yahoo! Groups Links -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
I have been dealing with Macromedia/allaire since 1997. And I have never once seen a price decrease. and in all of that time I want to say the typical price increase has been about 100%. Or if not a price increase a drop off in what you are getting.. 4 CPus now is only 2. (CFMX) 2 Cpus is now only 1 (Flex). I am trying to remember the first price I payed for Codl Fusion Proffesisonal Server.. $199 or $349 I guess I could look it up online at archive.org, but my point is, there is nothing you can buy at that price now. and you can see the decline in monster postings, and books on the topic that have matched the incline in price. I told people that the price increase was what our sales rep was telling us. we got our order in under the wire. Along time ago they decided to go with the strategy of Fewer customers paying higher bills. 200 new customers does not sound like a lot, which is why you have to charge a lot. it certainly is not on the install base of asp, .NET etc. Clearly they like FLEX becasue it is new and they can charge twice what they charge for CFMX. In 2 years it will be FLEX 40k, and you will have only a small base of people to hire, and if you want a FLEX developer plan on building a 6 month training process into the hire. --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Lucian Beebe [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: To Matthew below, certainly this is not a joke. But where you have been working on something great, lets talk. I'll contact you off line. On Laszlo, I am not going to start a whole Flex vs Laszlo discussion here, but suffice it to say that there are a lot of benefits for Flash Player 7 *if* you take advantage of them. Simply compiling a Flash Player 5 application for Flash Player 7 won't help a lot. There are values in accessibility, remote object binary protocols, performance optimizations, and dozens more, that all require lots of changes to leverage the new capabilities in Flash Player 7. We have most certainly done those all and many more in Flex 1.5. Finally, to the question of whether Flex is selling or not. The economists on this list have it right. We are selling Flex in great numbers. You may have seen that in December, we had over 200 customers. As a public company in the US, we are not allowed to give you specific updates, but suffice it to say that we are very excited about the success we are seeing and that has just encouraged us to adjust pricing and commitment in line with that success. Lucian -Original Message- From: Matthew Shirey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 9:17 AM To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex 1.5 price What about a 2cpu license? Please answer. Your 'starter kit' is overkill for us. If our price is based on a minimum 4cpu price, then this is no longer a joke at all. We will have to drop Flex and never look back. We will have wasted months of training and actual development time. This is NOT a price I can justify to anyone. We're seriously disappointed in Macromedia at this time. We're a very small shop and its starting to look like Macromedia does not care about the little guy at all anymore. -- Matthew On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 12:00:13 -0500, Darron J. Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jeff Steiner wrote: Lazslo, while the samples look great, is still based upon Flash player 5 (Beta 3 of Lazslo is player 6). It is one of those things where you have to wonder - how does Lazslo know what to extend of the Flash Player. The people that are contributing to it make guesses and try to extend the capabilities as far as they can, but they are still limited in their knowledge. I have never seen an API to the Flash player made readily available to the public. Also - as the Flash Player gets more complicated it will become more difficult to code hooks into the player to give developers the same functionality that is provided by Flex, and Breeze, and Flash, As a Flash developer, I'd like to chime in here.. The fact that Lazslo works on Flash Player 5 really isn't an issue. In fact, I'd say it's a bonus! Here's why: * Because Lazslo outputs to Flash Player 5, it has a larget target audience. See the penetration stats: http://www.macromedia.com/software/player_census/flashplayer/version_ penetra tion.html -- FP 5 is 97%. FP7 is 82% - so apps created in Laszlo have a better chance of being viewed * There are no older is slower arguments. The v7 player will play a v5 swf faster than the v5 player, because the v7 player itself is faster than the v5 player. * The internals are abstracted away. Right now your Lazslo code publishes to .swf, but it's not tied to the Flash Player in any way - there are no MovieClip references, etc in your lazslo code. In fact, you don't even use ActionScript, you write in JavaScript. There's
[flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
In case you don't find your company listed on NYSE then forget about Flex :)) It's sad, but true... Flex was successfully adopted by big financial companies and MM feels that can push the price a little bit higher to increase their revenue... and unfortunately make it more prohibitive for small-medium shops. The weird thing is that we tend to overlook the serious problems/limitations this product has. I've seen dozens of issues peoples had with this product some of them really put me in perspective... Keep in mind that not all the apps are datagrids, flash animations, etc... and the lack of multilingual support, very limited charting engine, memory issues are only a few of the things that people should consider before buying this product or being so excited about it In fact is just a presentation layer that stays on top of your application... Flex is not a standalone product, we still need an application servers, database, etc.. and the cost adds up... I don't want this product for free but the way MM treated us disrespectfully makes me sick... Another drawback is the complexity that has been added to development cycle. All of the sudden, we are talking about controllers, views, commands, value objects, data type mapping... on the presentation side... It's a lot of redundancy and in my view that should make this product less desirable Yes, Flex is nice, nice features for flashy projects but is too early to say it's a reliable tool for production, because too few people really deployed or used the application in prod for a decent period of time... Have you ever find a log when the browser crashes? or when the loader is taking so long to render a page... It's premature to say that Flex will be a successand I really do want so... but in the same proportion those project might fail miserably regarding their stability MM products scalability it something I wouldn't rely too much In conclusion, I think this is a list for people who really have technical difficulties and need help and less for IT managers that would want to buy... In fact is MM business how they'll manage to sell Flex and convince IT architects that this is a valid option. I'm less concern about MM revenue numbers, just concern on the impact the prices might have on my clients. Regards, Michael PS: DO NOT intend to contact MM people off list for favors... Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
I have been dealing with Macromedia/allaire since 1997. And I have never once seen a price decrease. and in all of that time I want to say the typical price increase has been about 100%. Or if not a price increase a drop off in what you are getting.. 4 CPus now is only 2. (CFMX) 2 Cpus is now only 1 (Flex). That goes with inflation, technology increases and what not. I'm yet to see any software really get lower in price with increase in features...its like crack, give it cheaply away for free early then once they are hooked, up the price heh...not saying i smoke crack - well it would explain a lot - just an analogy. Along time ago they decided to go with the strategy of Fewer customers paying higher bills. 200 new customers does not sound like a lot, which is why you have to charge a lot. it certainly is not on the install base of asp, .NET etc. Clearly they like FLEX becasue it is new and they can charge twice what they charge for CFMX. You *could* argue the whole Qty vs Quality, 200 customers @ $12k(2xCPU) or 500 customers at 6k(2xCPU) - now you could say that 300 customers could of bought them at 12k and so thats a loss in profits - but reality dictates that those 300 customers could bought into the product based on price. I'm also a little fuzzy as to the what IT Manager in what Enterprise corporation looks at a product like FLEX, (even without knowing it) gives it a test run and simply turns to the powers that be and go yeah, i think its too cheap so i'm not going to buy it now...if it were double the price, well then maybe ..) I know i'm fueling an argument here but that is a consistent reply i seem to read where people go Enterprise buy big, its too cheap etc We bought the product without thinking of the price at all, it was more out of need / and how we could best use it and so thats why i'm in different to the price uphike because i have a rich company to play in. Yet if the whole its priced for enterprise companies is just plain silly to me as a lot of IT Managers i know here in Australia in some pretty darn big corporations tend to think conservatively about their spending. I know one company who refuses to buy FLEX because they see Macromedia as this company shouting from the roof tops we are no longer web agency specific..hello..we are now enterprise..see our products have the word enterprise in them now...carn gimme fiddy-k in products hehe. that was his exact words btw. In 2 years it will be FLEX 40k, and you will have only a small base of people to hire, and if you want a FLEX developer plan on building a 6 month training process into the hire. Yes, I did a costings on MossyBlog when flex first came out read: http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/235.cfm - Flex The Hidden Costs. I as a personal developer hate the price tag as i want to use FLEX for one of my get rich quick apps floating around in my head hehehe. Yet, again as an employee for the company i work with and the buying power we have, its not a sore point - the future is and thats where i end up caving in on price. Lazlo needs more work, compare as much as you want and strip it down to what it can offer today. Tommorow is another debate and it could just fade away (like many Open Source projects before it) - or it could ramp up and be this dark horse. The point is, how much money and investment will it take to get Lazlo to the point at which you can use Flex now? what benefits is it bringing to the table? what is its background? what's its community like? what's its capabilities in terms of integration with your legacy systems or current technology etc.. I did this little audit a while back for here, and while $15k made my first tier give me this eh, please explain - he straight away saw why it was beneficial as all i had to go with was DHTML...15k to code DHTML would be spent in the first 3 months alone in terms man power, testing and may i add a this point no actual worthwhile apps are made. I see Laszlo as the same in many ways. Its too immature and needs more time in the oven. Flex is the sleeping giant. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http://www.mossyblog.com http://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
Hey Scott, I love the disclaimer at the bottom of your mossyblog.com site: We own this crap (Any hacking, copying, spaming, etc will result in headbutts) All trademarks property of their owners. blah blah.. . We also reserve the right to use poor spelling, terrible gramma and at times are not required to make sense. We are NOT Macromedia worshipers, we are infact Monkeys at a keyboard...OooO.OoO.oo Nice. Simon -Original Message-From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Sent: 01 April 2005 00:57To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.comSubject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price I have been dealing with Macromedia/allaire since 1997. And I have never once seen a price decrease. and in all of that time I want to say the typical price increase has been about 100%. Or if not a price increase a drop off in what you are getting.. 4 CPus now is only 2. (CFMX) 2 Cpus is now only 1 (Flex).That goes with inflation, technology increases and what not. I'm yetto see any software really get lower in price with increase infeatures...its like crack, give it cheaply away for free early thenonce they are hooked, up the price heh...not saying i smoke crack -well it would explain a lot - just an analogy. Along time ago they decided to go with the strategy of Fewer customers paying higher bills. 200 new customers does not sound like a lot, which is why you have to charge a lot. it certainly is not on the install base of asp, .NET etc. Clearly they like FLEX becasue it is new and they can charge twice what they charge for CFMX.You *could* argue the whole Qty vs Quality, 200 customers @$12k(2xCPU) or 500 customers at 6k(2xCPU) - now you could say that 300customers could of bought them at 12k and so thats a loss in profits -but reality dictates that those 300 customers could bought into theproduct based on price. I'm also a little fuzzy as to the what ITManager in what Enterprise corporation looks at a product like FLEX,(even without knowing it) gives it a test run and simply turns to thepowers that be and go "yeah, i think its too cheap so i'm not going tobuy it now...if it were double the price, well then maybe ..) I knowi'm fueling an argument here but that is a consistent reply i seem toread where people go "Enterprise buy big, its too cheap etc"We bought the product without thinking of the price at all, it wasmore out of need / and how we could best use it and so thats why i'min different to the price uphike because i have a rich company to playin. Yet if the whole "its priced for enterprise" companies is justplain silly to me as a lot of IT Managers i know here in Australia insome pretty darn big corporations tend to think conservatively abouttheir spending. I know one company who refuses to buy FLEX becausethey see Macromedia as this company shouting from the roof tops "weare no longer web agency specific..hello..we are now enterprise..seeour products have the word enterprise in them now...carn gimme fiddy-kin products"hehe. that was his exact words btw. In 2 years it will be FLEX 40k, and you will have only a small base of people to hire, and if you want a FLEX developer plan on building a 6 month training process into the hire.Yes, I did a costings on MossyBlog when flex first came out read:http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/235.cfm - Flex The Hidden Costs.I as a personal developer hate the price tag as i want to use FLEX forone of my get rich quick apps floating around in my head hehehe. Yet,again as an employee for the company i work with and the buying powerwe have, its not a sore point - the future is and thats where i end upcaving in on price.Lazlo needs more work, compare as much as you want and strip it downto what it can offer today. Tommorow is another debate and it couldjust fade away (like many Open Source projects before it) - or itcould ramp up and be this dark horse. The point is, how much money andinvestment will it take to get Lazlo to the point at which you can useFlex now? what benefits is it bringing to the table? what is itsbackground? what's its community like? what's its capabilities interms of integration with your legacy systems or current technologyetc..I did this little audit a while back for here, and while $15k made myfirst tier give me this "eh, please explain" - he straight away sawwhy it was beneficial as all i had to go with was DHTML...15k to codeDHTML would be spent in the first 3 months alone in terms man power,testing and may i add a this point no actual worthwhile apps are made.I see Laszlo as the same in many ways. Its too immature and needs moretime in the oven.Flex is the sleeping giant.-- Regards,Scott Barneshttp://www.mossyblog.comhttp://www.flexcoder.com (Coming Soon) Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your gr
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
:) its what i do best.. ramble... i am so ready for politics i swear... On Fri, 1 Apr 2005 01:12:00 +0100, Simon Fifield [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey Scott, I love the disclaimer at the bottom of your mossyblog.com site: We own this crap (Any hacking, copying, spaming, etc will result in headbutts) All trademarks property of their owners. blah blah.. . We also reserve the right to use poor spelling, terrible gramma and at times are not required to make sense. We are NOT Macromedia worshipers, we are infact Monkeys at a keyboard...OooO.OoO.oo Nice. Simon -Original Message- From: Scott Barnes [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 01 April 2005 00:57 To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price I have been dealing with Macromedia/allaire since 1997. And I have never once seen a price decrease. and in all of that time I want to say the typical price increase has been about 100%. Or if not a price increase a drop off in what you are getting.. 4 CPus now is only 2. (CFMX) 2 Cpus is now only 1 (Flex). That goes with inflation, technology increases and what not. I'm yet to see any software really get lower in price with increase in features...its like crack, give it cheaply away for free early then once they are hooked, up the price heh...not saying i smoke crack - well it would explain a lot - just an analogy. Along time ago they decided to go with the strategy of Fewer customers paying higher bills. 200 new customers does not sound like a lot, which is why you have to charge a lot. it certainly is not on the install base of asp, .NET etc. Clearly they like FLEX becasue it is new and they can charge twice what they charge for CFMX. You *could* argue the whole Qty vs Quality, 200 customers @ $12k(2xCPU) or 500 customers at 6k(2xCPU) - now you could say that 300 customers could of bought them at 12k and so thats a loss in profits - but reality dictates that those 300 customers could bought into the product based on price. I'm also a little fuzzy as to the what IT Manager in what Enterprise corporation looks at a product like FLEX, (even without knowing it) gives it a test run and simply turns to the powers that be and go yeah, i think its too cheap so i'm not going to buy it now...if it were double the price, well then maybe ..) I know i'm fueling an argument here but that is a consistent reply i seem to read where people go Enterprise buy big, its too cheap etc We bought the product without thinking of the price at all, it was more out of need / and how we could best use it and so thats why i'm in different to the price uphike because i have a rich company to play in. Yet if the whole its priced for enterprise companies is just plain silly to me as a lot of IT Managers i know here in Australia in some pretty darn big corporations tend to think conservatively about their spending. I know one company who refuses to buy FLEX because they see Macromedia as this company shouting from the roof tops we are no longer web agency specific..hello..we are now enterprise..see our products have the word enterprise in them now...carn gimme fiddy-k in products hehe. that was his exact words btw. In 2 years it will be FLEX 40k, and you will have only a small base of people to hire, and if you want a FLEX developer plan on building a 6 month training process into the hire. Yes, I did a costings on MossyBlog when flex first came out read: http://www.mossyblog.com/archives/235.cfm - Flex The Hidden Costs. I as a personal developer hate the price tag as i want to use FLEX for one of my get rich quick apps floating around in my head hehehe. Yet, again as an employee for the company i work with and the buying power we have, its not a sore point - the future is and thats where i end up caving in on price. Lazlo needs more work, compare as much as you want and strip it down to what it can offer today. Tommorow is another debate and it could just fade away (like many Open Source projects before it) - or it could ramp up and be this dark horse. The point is, how much money and investment will it take to get Lazlo to the point at which you can use Flex now? what benefits is it bringing to the table? what is its background? what's its community like? what's its capabilities in terms of integration with your legacy systems or current technology etc.. I did this little audit a while back for here, and while $15k made my first tier give me this eh, please explain - he straight away saw why it was beneficial as all i had to go with was DHTML...15k to code DHTML would be spent in the first 3 months alone in terms man power, testing and may i add a this point no actual worthwhile apps are made. I see Laszlo as the same in many ways. Its too immature and needs more time in the oven. Flex is the sleeping giant. -- Regards, Scott Barnes http
[flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
I have had Some Shares for much longer, its about break even for me. :( --- In flexcoders@yahoogroups.com, Tarik Ahmed [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've owned MACR shares since Sept. It's one of my best performing stocks! JesterXL wrote: Forbes recommended that investors do so. - Original Message - From: Michel Jansen [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 2:26 PM Subject: Re: [flexcoders] Flex 1.5 price Lucian Beebe wrote: Finally, to the question of whether Flex is selling or not. The economists on this list have it right. We are selling Flex in great numbers. Thanx for the compliment. Although i am no economist, i'm not stupid. Just like you guys. Who is going to pull prices up if the product aint selling. The CFO that does this is the real moron! Good luck... Should i buy some shares??? Michel Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/flexcoders/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price
see now you've gone and done it, you made Jess break out his boy-boy voice. I don't want this product for free but the way MM treated us disrespectfully makes me sick... Just because they don't agree with all rants said, doesn't mean they don't listen intently just the same. I mean i give these guys a good ol fashion public beating sometimes (and un provoked at that) - yet I have more goodies then i care to share. Hell they even gave me an XBOX once ;) Not saying I should now kiss their butts for throwing me sweets, i'm just stating that despite the fact, i tend to bash them over the head with crap and annoying issues a lot - sometimes positive ones - they still treat me as a valued customer. (Even though they may have a mugshot in their interview rooms reading DO NOT HIRE THIS CLOWN) I think Jess hit all points in a valid way and agree with what was said. On Apr 1, 2005 3:54 PM, JesterXL [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Another drawback is the complexity that has been added to development cycle. All of the sudden, we are talking about controllers, views, commands, value objects, data type mapping... on the presentation side... It's a lot of redundancy and in my view that should make this product less desirable Go ask IBM why they hired me to replace their current Flash developer working on projects for the US Navy and Siemens. MVC is a useful design pattern, prevents redundancy, and I claim is a necessity in creating effective front-end applications; we are not creating animations here. Yes, Flex is nice, nice features for flashy projects but is too early to say it's a reliable tool for production, because too few people really deployed or used the application in prod for a decent period of time... Have you ever find a log when the browser crashes? or when the loader is taking so long to render a page... Go back to Slashdot. Those of us who have been using Flash for the past few years, deployed successful projects, and have the bling to show for it know that paragraph is bologna. In case you don't find your company listed on NYSE then forget about Flex :)) It's sad, but true... Flex was successfully adopted by big financial companies and MM feels that can push the price a little bit higher to increase their revenue... and unfortunately make it more prohibitive for small-medium shops. Not true, said company listed on NYSE can be your client. We can't afford the software, but they can, and they pay us, therefore, we make them buy the software. We know how to use it, and know it can help us get our projects done faster for them, thus, we're using their pockets to buy Flex, and have us make them software. limited charting engine Know of a better one with the same amount of unbiquity, extensibility and ease of integra Oh, sorry... times up, not that you needed it. I don't want this product for free but the way MM treated us disrespectfully makes me sick... I say nice things about Flash to my friends. Macromedia sends me goodies (T-shirt, memory stick, cool bag, Central stuff to pass out at user meetings). I say nice things about Flex. They give me a Non-Commercial license. People ask questions on this list, a bunch of them respond construtively. They seem pretty cool to me! I'm less concern about MM revenue numbers, just concern on the impact the prices might have on my clients. Either get a PR person or someone from MM to effectively communicate the value and speed that Flex can offer them, or get different clients with deeper pockets. I apologize, but I cannot effectively comment on your server-side and scalability concerns. - Original Message - From: mlaudrup1987 [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: flexcoders@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:40 PM Subject: [flexcoders] Re: Flex 1.5 price In case you don't find your company listed on NYSE then forget about Flex :)) It's sad, but true... Flex was successfully adopted by big financial companies and MM feels that can push the price a little bit higher to increase their revenue... and unfortunately make it more prohibitive for small-medium shops. The weird thing is that we tend to overlook the serious problems/limitations this product has. I've seen dozens of issues peoples had with this product some of them really put me in perspective... Keep in mind that not all the apps are datagrids, flash animations, etc... and the lack of multilingual support, very limited charting engine, memory issues are only a few of the things that people should consider before buying this product or being so excited about it In fact is just a presentation layer that stays on top of your application... Flex is not a standalone product, we still need an application servers, database, etc.. and the cost adds up... I don't want this product for free but the way MM treated us disrespectfully makes me sick
