Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread Martin Spott 
Martin Spott wrote:

> There are many things you could think of wrt. supporting collaborative
> Scenery development 

  like on-the-fly map-rendering of landcover-submissions (so people
can check how their submission is going to be recived), working towards
more different textures to serve various 'new' land cover types
(http://wiki.osgeo.org/wiki/LandcoverDB_CS_Detail), working towards a
clever texture selecion schema/algorithm depending on much more
seasonal and regional environment settings compared to the current,
rather simple summer/winter schema, 

Just a quick listing from the top of my head at 01:50 AM after a long
workday, the number of opportunities is almost indefinite,

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New release

2010-12-23 Thread Dave L 
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 8:12 PM, John Denker wrote:


>
> To work properly, atis.cxx needs not only the standard ATIS phraseology
> but also the /names/ of the ATIS/AWOS sites (usually but not necessarily
> airports).  If you include the names of all US airports, the .vce file
> has more than 2300 entries and the .wav file is more than 30 megabytes.
>

One begins to wonder whether some of the place-names should be loaded
> on a tile-by-tile basis (like scenery) rather than in one big chunk.
>
>
Yes, I think this is the way to go in the future, also the phraseology can
be refined per geographical area.  However, for now I'll just bung in the
default file for the release.  I can either do the current scheme of all the
base package airports with ATIS + a selection of very major ones, or all the
US ones with ATIS.  Is 30 MB too much to add to FG's memory requirement in
one hit?



> 
>
> > I am hoping to record the extra words next week during the holiday
>
> I can send you the words and/or the script I used to synthesize them.
>

If you can email me the words and script that would be great.  It took quite
a long time to index all the words when I did the original recording - this
should be a lot quicker.


> 
>
> As you know, there are no currency requirements for listening to ATCT
> controllers ... whereas there are important currency requirements
> for instrument approaches, and (with or without a Tower) it is hard
> to shoot the approach without ATIS information such as weather,
> altimeter, approach-in-use, et cetera.
>

Agreed, with the real weather ATIS is fairly essential!


>
> Constructive suggestion:  If you're going to port something, you
> might as well start from
>  
> http://gitorious.org/~jsd/fg/sport-model/commits/atis
>
>


OK, will take a look, thanks.

Cheers - Dave
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread Martin Spott 
Adrian Musceac wrote:

> I have only the highest expectations from your project, however in order
> to get many people involved and avoiding the same lone wolf approach,

You're having a valid point here. Anyhow, the "lone wolf" is in no way
an "aproach" but instead much better charaterized as sort of an
"unhappy result".

Fortunately I'm not _that_ lonesome here: Ralf Gerlich has contributed
a lot of work for improving the TerraGear-toolchain which he picked up
from Curt and others, Fred Bouvier took care of making the beast run on
Windows, John Holden, Christian Schmitt and others are contributing
content  and I feel like I'm still mostly learning along my way
while exploring different tools and techniques.

Yet there's still a lot of opportunities to contribute in almost every
aspect - just think of the MapServer frontpage which is most certainly
the ugliest page in FlightGear land. Having an attractive page, maybe a
common layout together with the Scenemodels site, including a blog, a
3D model submission syntax- and rule-checker and other nifty tools
would certainly be pretty beneficial to the common effort.
There are many things you could think of wrt. supporting collaborative
Scenery development 

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git version of today

2010-12-23 Thread Donn Washburn 

Hey Group;

I have had a problem mentioned today concerning PKGGLIBDIR.  This was 
from a effort with cmake and ccmake.  fgfs compiled completely but 
lacking a make check function I directly installed it.

Tried it and got > Base package check failed ... Found version [none] 
at: @PKGLIBDIR
 > Please upgrade to version: 2.0.0.

The problem was with fgfs and not with the fgdata.  So I thought I would 
try a "configure" and make version.  I like autoconf and automake much 
better because it spotted my earlier problem.

It is in src/Main of todays git version and was not caught by cmake 
which went to 100%

Enclosed is the make found error.cannot find -lsgephem

make[1]: Entering directory `/mnt/sdb5/archive/fgfs/flightgear/src/Main'
g++ -DPKGLIBDIR=\"/usr/share/flightgear\" -g -O2 -Wall -D_REENTRANT   
-L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/local/lib -L/usr/X11R6/lib -L/usr/local/lib -o 
fgfs bootstrap.o libMain.a ../../src/Aircraft/libAircraft.a 
../../src/ATCDCL/libATCDCL.a ../../src/Cockpit/libCockpit.a 
../../src/Cockpit/built_in/libBuilt_in.a ../../src/Network/libNetwork.a 
../../src/FDM/libFlight.a ../../src/FDM/ExternalNet/libExternalNet.a 
../../src/FDM/ExternalPipe/libExternalPipe.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/libJSBSim.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/initialization/libInit.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/models/libModels.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/models/flight_control/libFlightControl.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/models/atmosphere/libAtmosphere.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/models/propulsion/libPropulsion.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/input_output/libInputOutput.a 
../../src/FDM/JSBSim/math/libMath.a ../../src/FDM/YASim/libYASim.a 
../../src/FDM/LaRCsim/libLaRCsim.a 
../../src/FDM/UIUCModel/libUIUCModel.a ../../src/FDM/SP/libSPFDM.a 
../../src/GUI/libGUI.a ../../src/Autopilot/libAutopilot.a 
../../src/Input/libInput.a ../../src/Instrumentation/KLN89/libKLN89.a 
../../src/Instrumentation/libInstrumentation.a 
../../src/Instrumentation/HUD/libHUD.a ../../src/Model/libModel.a 
../../src/Navaids/libNavaids.a ../../src/Scenery/libScenery.a 
../../src/Scripting/libScripting.a ../../src/Sound/libSound.a 
../../src/Airports/libAirports.a ../../src/MultiPlayer/libMultiPlayer.a 
../../src/AIModel/libAIModel.a ../../src/ATC/libATC.a 
../../src/Systems/libSystems.a ../../src/Time/libTime.a 
../../src/Traffic/libTraffic.a ../../src/Environment/libEnvironment.a 
-lsgroute -lsgsky -lsgsound -lsgephem -lsgtgdb -lsgmodel -lsgbvh 
-lsgmaterial -lsgutil -lsgtiming -lsgio -lsgscreen -lsgmath -lsgbucket 
-lsgprops -lsgdebug -lsgmagvar -lsgmisc -lsgnasal -lsgxml -lsgsound 
-lsgserial -lsgstructure -lsgenvironment -lplibpuaux -lplibpu -lplibfnt 
-lplibjs -lplibsg -lplibul   -lpthread   -lz -lglut -lGLU -lGL -lXmu 
-lXt -lSM -lICE -lXi -lXext -lX11 -lrt -ldl -lm  -lalut -lopenal -lrt 
-ldl -lm   -lpthread   -losgFX -losgParticle -losgSim -losgViewer 
-losgGA -losgText -losgDB -losgUtil -losg -lOpenThreads
/usr/lib/gcc/i586-suse-linux/4.5/../../../../i586-suse-linux/bin/ld: 
cannot find -lsgephem
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[1]: *** [fgfs] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/mnt/sdb5/archive/fgfs/flightgear/src/Main'
make: *** [all-recursive] Error 1

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New release

2010-12-23 Thread Stefan Seifert 
On Thursday 23 December 2010 21:12:16 John Denker wrote:

> > Maybe if you have a text-to-speech system set up it works properly,
> > but I assume most people downloading the new release will not have
> > that setup by default.
> 
> Agreed.  Getting TTS to work "live" (as opposed to batch) is way more
> trouble than ordinary users are willing to put up with.

Makes me wonder how difficult it would be to fully integrate festival into 
FlightGear. Not using some external program, but linking the library and 
shipping appropriate voice files.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New release

2010-12-23 Thread John Denker 
On 12/23/2010 05:33 AM, Dave L wrote:

> At the moment, the spoken ATIS makes little sense anyway since the 
> phaseology was corrected a while ago but the extra words were not
> recorded.

Well, actually the needed words are available.  Long ago I wrote a 
script to run the words through the festival synthesizer, all in a 
batch, to produce the .wav data and .vce index.

To work properly, atis.cxx needs not only the standard ATIS phraseology
but also the /names/ of the ATIS/AWOS sites (usually but not necessarily
airports).  If you include the names of all US airports, the .vce file
has more than 2300 entries and the .wav file is more than 30 megabytes.

One begins to wonder whether some of the place-names should be loaded
on a tile-by-tile basis (like scenery) rather than in one big chunk.

> Maybe if you have a text-to-speech system set up it works properly,
> but I assume most people downloading the new release will not have
> that setup by default.

Agreed.  Getting TTS to work "live" (as opposed to batch) is way more
trouble than ordinary users are willing to put up with.
 
> I am hoping to record the extra words next week during the holiday

I can send you the words and/or the script I used to synthesize them.

> and port the ATIS over to Durk's new ATC/AI system.

That would be a Good Thing.  Right now ATC/trafficcontrol.cxx contains
about 1000 lines of code, whereas ATC/atis.cxx contains only 1 line 
of code (and no real functionality).

There is a set of users for which the priorities are reversed, in
the sense that ATIS/AWOS is 1000 times more important than anything
trafficcontrol.cxx is going to say.

As you know, there are no currency requirements for listening to ATCT 
controllers ... whereas there are important currency requirements
for instrument approaches, and (with or without a Tower) it is hard
to shoot the approach without ATIS information such as weather, 
altimeter, approach-in-use, et cetera.

==

Constructive suggestion:  If you're going to port something, you 
might as well start from
  http://gitorious.org/~jsd/fg/sport-model/commits/atis

It contains some minor fixes (to get rid of warnings etc.) and
also splits the vocabulary words into a file of their own, to
make it easier on the guy who 

===

AFAICT ./configure --enable-atcdcl has never done anything useful.
If it is enabled, the code is compiled and linked in ... but not
called.

That means that in current versions of FGFS, the ATIS feature is
really quite broken (not just disabled).  Some sort of fix (or
port) would be a significant improvement.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Martin Spott 
Torsten Dreyer wrote:

> I saw many reports that mapserver is a faster than gitorious. Thanks, 

Thanks to our sponsor (-> "Telascience") !

Cheers,
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Gijs de Rooy 

> just using the default - ./fgfs  I get this error.
> 
> Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: @PKGLIBDIR
> Please upgrade to version: 2.0.0

You need to tell FG where your data directory is. Do that with 
--fg-root=/usr/share/flightgear 
in your commandline, or set FG_ROOT in your .fgfsrc file

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Donn Washburn 
On 12/23/2010 01:14 PM, Torsten Dreyer wrote:
> Am 23.12.10 19:35, schrieb Donn Washburn:
>> On 12/23/2010 12:24 PM, Gijs de Rooy wrote:
 FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5
 times over time to get fgdata with the same error.
>>> Gitorious was down since earlier today. However, it appears to be up
>>> again now.
>>>
>>> You can still obtain fgdata from the mapserver clone though, if
>>> Gitorious still doesn't
>>> work: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=summary
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gijs
>> Thanks that seems to be working. It even seems faster
>>
> I saw many reports that mapserver is a faster than gitorious. Thanks,
> Martin!
>
> Torsten (also bmw biker ;-)
I BMW Rider;

Me Also for over 30 years a 300,000 miles until recently.  Still have 
the 1987 K100LT In great shape

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[Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Donn Washburn 
On 12/23/2010 01:14 PM, Torsten Dreyer wrote:
> Am 23.12.10 19:35, schrieb Donn Washburn:
>> On 12/23/2010 12:24 PM, Gijs de Rooy wrote:
 FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5
 times over time to get fgdata with the same error.
>>> Gitorious was down since earlier today. However, it appears to be up
>>> again now.
>>>
>>> You can still obtain fgdata from the mapserver clone though, if
>>> Gitorious still doesn't
>>> work: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=summary
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Gijs
>> Thanks that seems to be working. It even seems faster
Now that I have the most recent fgdata I am still seeing an error.  I have no 
clue on this error.

just using the default - ./fgfs  I get this error.

Base package check failed ... Found version [none] at: @PKGLIBDIR
Please upgrade to version: 2.0.0

I have fgdata in a directory /usr/share/flightgear.Anyone have clue.

I have about every known SVN/GIT version of fgfs, fgdata, plib, openGL, 
freeglut, freealut, OSG and simgear.
I am also running NV.run

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Torsten Dreyer 
Am 23.12.10 19:35, schrieb Donn Washburn:
> On 12/23/2010 12:24 PM, Gijs de Rooy wrote:
>>> FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5
>>> times over time to get fgdata with the same error.
>> Gitorious was down since earlier today. However, it appears to be up
>> again now.
>>
>> You can still obtain fgdata from the mapserver clone though, if
>> Gitorious still doesn't
>> work: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=summary
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Gijs
> Thanks that seems to be working. It even seems faster
>
I saw many reports that mapserver is a faster than gitorious. Thanks, 
Martin!

Torsten (also bmw biker ;-)

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[Flightgear-devel] Do Shader animations support Conditions?

2010-12-23 Thread Peter Brown 
I was attempting to install a few shaders, based on internal or external view, 
but I have not been able to make it work.
Can someone let me know if you can use a  in a  animation ?

Thanks,
Peter


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Donn Washburn 
On 12/23/2010 12:24 PM, Gijs de Rooy wrote:
> > FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5
> > times over time to get fgdata with the same error.
>
> Gitorious was down since earlier today. However, it appears to be up 
> again now.
>
> You can still obtain fgdata from the mapserver clone though, if 
> Gitorious still doesn't
> work: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=summary
>
> Cheers,
> Gijs
Thanks that seems to be working. It even seems faster

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread Jacob Burbach 
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:29 PM, J. Holden  wrote:
> I appreciate the ephithet being hurled in my direction, especially because 
> all we are pointing out is that CORINE data should eventually be part of the 
> land cover database anyways, which may deprecate some (but not necessarily 
> all) of the third-party scenery projects currently being produced,
>
> Cheers
> John

Exactly. If a project is just terrain generated using whatever data,
and that data becomes part of the official DB then that project will
have served its purpose and can fade away. In the mean time, while we
wait for that day, those projects are very well accepted by the
community at large, make flightgear look good, generate interest
flightgear and in developing those areas furtherit's a "good"
thing. When the time comes those projects become unnecessary I think
you'll find most/all the creators of that scenery will probably happy
with that fact...as processing, generating, and distributing very
large sets of terrain is quite time consuming and not all that
trivial.

cheers
--Jacob

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Gijs de Rooy 

> FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5 
> times over time to get fgdata with the same error.

Gitorious was down since earlier today. However, it appears to be up again now.

You can still obtain fgdata from the mapserver clone though, if Gitorious still 
doesn't
work: http://mapserver.flightgear.org/git/?p=fgdata;a=summary

Cheers,
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[Flightgear-devel] git of fgdata today

2010-12-23 Thread Donn Washburn 
FGDATA site seems to be down or have problems.  I have tried about 5 
times over time to get fgdata with the same error.


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Erro message
gitorious.org[0: 63.219.151.16]: errno=Connection timed out
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread J. Holden 
I appreciate the ephithet being hurled in my direction, especially because all 
we are pointing out is that CORINE data should eventually be part of the land 
cover database anyways, which may deprecate some (but not necessarily all) of 
the third-party scenery projects currently being produced,

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread Jacob Burbach 
>> [...] Still, none of the third party sceneries directly help the goal
>> of adding data to the server or helping fix TerraGear to push out a
>> new World Scenery package [...]

I think the key word here is "directly". No, they may not, even
cannot, "directly" contribute land cover to the data server...and why
should they need to anyway? In almost every case everyone has access
to that same data and if there is no conflicting license issues (and
there are) then it can/should already be in the global db by those
maintaining it. However, I believe these projects do contribute to the
community and the project by showing people flightgear is capable of
having nice looking and accurate base scenery, by taking the time to
generate that scenery and provide it freely to everyone for use, and
also inspiring further scenery work in that area that "does" make it
into the global scenery db.

---
---

Maybe it's not every ones cup of tea, not aligned exactly with "their"
goals or wishesbut I know for a fact a very large number in the
community greatly enjoy and appreciate these third party scenery
projects. If you don't like it, don't use it, but there is no need for
anyone to be a complete douche bag trolling the list critizing other
peoples hard work and personal projects. Should we start pissing on
third party aircraft as well? Want to piss on Yuriks hard work, or
maybe Garys, since the Tu154b and Constellation and others are not in
the git package, maybe not licensed to match the git package, and/or
just plain better than what's in the git package?

There are reasons people may choose to develop as a third party,
whether it be scenery, aircraft, or even code. Who are you to
criticize them, or make false accusations about how they act, why they
do it, or to what level of quality they do it? I have a goal with my
own third party Innsbruck scenery project, and have been very open
about that goal, the methods and tools I'm using and developing to
achieve it, and why I'm doing things the way I'm doing them. If you
don't like it, don't use it, no one is forcing you to use it or any
other third party project. To criticize other peoples work just
because they don't align exactly with your vision, your project, or
whatever your real personal reasons..is just petty and plain old
fashioned douche baggerygrow up.

cheers
--Jacob

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] EzineArticles.com

2010-12-23 Thread Vivian Meazza 
George

 
> On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Chris Wilkinson
>  wrote:
> > Hi there,
> >
> > I reported author 'Dan H Freeman' to that website as being misleading
> about
> > his software and running a scam, explaining the situation with
> FlightGear
> > and ProFlightSim. They asked if I was a 'representative' of FlightGear.
> I
> > replied that I was a user of the software, but not deeply involved in
> the
> > development/community as such. They then suggested that if the
> > "creators/operators" of flightgear would like to contact them then
> please go
> > ahead.
> >
> > So if anyone more entrenched in the development of fg would like to take
> up
> > this offer to communicate with EzineArticles, regarding Dan H Freeman
> and
> > his little enterprise, please let me know. I will forward the contact
> email
> > address. The goal I suggested to EzineArticles would be to remove his
> > articles from the site, due to the misleading nature of his business. I
> > informed them of reports from people being ripped off by the scam, and
> about
> > the use of mis-appropriated historical names on the websites and other
> > immoral tactics being used, including the registration of the
> > 'www.flightgear.us' domain.
> >
> 
> I was trying to figure out "What's in it for them?".
> 
> Having a read of the article the link below, it reads well and looks
> balanced until you get to the bottom of the page. The last few
> paragraphs says:
> 
> >From http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-The-F/A-22-Raptor-The-Best-Figher-Jet-
> In-2011?&id=5345920
> "Download the *MOST REALISTIC* airplane flight simulator ever created
> for home users.
> 
> Click the link to visit ProFlightSimulator below:
> - airplane games
> 
> Experience real life flying with accurate worldwide scenery based on
> actual terrian with over 20,000 real airports and 120 different
> planes.
> Its the next best thing to being up there!
> "
> 
> So they get a better page ranking on Google due to the links back to
> the proflightsimulator. Grrr.
> 
> Note: Terrian is their typing mistake. lol

All the ezinearticles looklike a scam to me. I note an Affiliates program -
sound familiar? Dan H Freeman's articles are riddled with spelling mistakes
and inaccuracies try this one:

P51 - 

"Infact, it is said that nearly 5 pilots earned the name "Aces" after
killing enemies flying this plane."

4.9 pilots perhaps?

Vivian 



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments (was: Scenery Corner)

2010-12-23 Thread syd adams 
Sticking my 2 cents in here , i cant take anything on the forum too
seriously , probably just from bad forum experiences overall. The
mailing list was always the place I looked for development news , but
like Vivian mentioned , that doesn't seem to happen much since the
move to Git . Would be nice to see the community
back at a central location again , and less divided ;).Meanwhile I'll
continue tinkering  still think Flightgear is the best open source
project.
Merry Christmas all .
Syd

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] EzineArticles.com

2010-12-23 Thread George Patterson 
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 1:09 PM, Chris Wilkinson
 wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I reported author 'Dan H Freeman' to that website as being misleading about
> his software and running a scam, explaining the situation with FlightGear
> and ProFlightSim. They asked if I was a 'representative' of FlightGear. I
> replied that I was a user of the software, but not deeply involved in the
> development/community as such. They then suggested that if the
> "creators/operators" of flightgear would like to contact them then please go
> ahead.
>
> So if anyone more entrenched in the development of fg would like to take up
> this offer to communicate with EzineArticles, regarding Dan H Freeman and
> his little enterprise, please let me know. I will forward the contact email
> address. The goal I suggested to EzineArticles would be to remove his
> articles from the site, due to the misleading nature of his business. I
> informed them of reports from people being ripped off by the scam, and about
> the use of mis-appropriated historical names on the websites and other
> immoral tactics being used, including the registration of the
> 'www.flightgear.us' domain.
>

I was trying to figure out "What's in it for them?".

Having a read of the article the link below, it reads well and looks
balanced until you get to the bottom of the page. The last few
paragraphs says:

>From 
>http://ezinearticles.com/?Is-The-F/A-22-Raptor-The-Best-Figher-Jet-In-2011?&id=5345920
"Download the *MOST REALISTIC* airplane flight simulator ever created
for home users.

Click the link to visit ProFlightSimulator below:
- airplane games

Experience real life flying with accurate worldwide scenery based on
actual terrian with over 20,000 real airports and 120 different
planes.
Its the next best thing to being up there!
"

So they get a better page ranking on Google due to the links back to
the proflightsimulator. Grrr.

Note: Terrian is their typing mistake. lol

Regards


George

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] New release

2010-12-23 Thread Dave L 
On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 12:12 AM, John Denker  wrote:

> It may not be an entirely good idea to release a FlightGear version without
> any usable ATIS.
>
> It appears that ATC/atis.cxx is a stub.  It contains only one line of code.
>
> Meanwhile there is ye olde ATCDCL/atis.cxx, which contains code but is
> "deprecated" and is not compiled in the standard configuration.
>
>
>
Hi John,

At the moment, the spoken ATIS makes little sense anyway since the
phaseology was corrected a while ago but the extra words were not recorded.
Maybe if you have a text-to-speech system set up it works properly, but I
assume most people downloading the new release will not have that setup by
default.

I am hoping to record the extra words next week during the holiday and port
the ATIS over to Durk's new ATC/AI system.  I don't know exactly when the
release is due, so I don't know if it will get done in time.

Cheers - Dave
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments

2010-12-23 Thread thorsten . i . renk 
Martin:

> This is a rather incomplete and therefore, at least to my opinion,
> pretty unfortunate and unsuitable representation of a certain status
> quo.

It wasn't meant to be a representation of any status quo - it is what you
(among others) have been communicating (at least to me, given private
feedback I have received off the list also to others) as your picture of
the status quo. If that's not what you meant to communicate, that's good -
then you know that you can be misunderstood - that's what feedback is for.


>> [...] Still, none of the third party sceneries directly help the goal
>> of adding data to the server or helping fix TerraGear to push out a
>> new World Scenery package [...]

> Well said !

Right. Now - how to get to the desired outcome? That's what my comment is
all about.

You are experienced in scenery development. You are quite probably right
in assuming that your way of doing things is better than what others come
up. Unfortunately, the human mind isn't structured so that people readily
accept that and ask you to assign tasks to them.

My experience is that newcomers to a project/field/... need to make their
own experiments and mistakes first. That's called learning. There's
nothing gained by continuously pointing out that they are new, that their
work isn't up to existing standards and that they don't do it right.
They'll find out eventually by themselves, given time.

Speaking from my own experience in making weather - I had to experiment
with clouds rotated with Nasal scripts initially. I heard a (subjective)
million times that it runs too slow. I knew that, it didn't help me, and I
knew I would improve the performance once I was sure what sort of
transformation I wanted. What I needed was some encouragement to go on to
get me over the frustration of things not working. In the end I settled on
(almost) the same technique Stuart already had implemented. Why? Because
it worked best. So, could I not have done it 'right' from the start based
on Stuart's work? No - because I needed to understand the problem, not
just use something I don't understand.

And my experience is that after having made their own independent work,
people are more ready to collaborate in projects. Before, it would be a
one-sided thing - a teacher-student relation - one person knows what is to
be done and commands, the other follows the instructions. After some
independent work, it becomes more of a collaboration and things get
discussed - even if 90% of the input are coming from one party and 10% of
the other. But that sort of collaboration is hardly possible if you have
been continuously blasting the others as not doing things right before.

That sort of collaboration is actually more tedious for me than telling a
student what to do. But it's also more fruitful in the long run.

The alternative is always a lone wolf approach to your project - which has
the advantage that you don't have to compromise on anything. In my
experience, you can't expect a collaborative effort to work and expect
people to accept that you are right in what you say at the same time (even
if you are right - there is psychology as well in a collaboration...).

Regardless of what you may think about other people's work, the forum (and
regardless of what may or may not even be factually true) - I just fail to
see any gain for Flightgear by speaking bad about the forum or other
people's work without need.

> Instead, having to assemble Scenery from a lot of different places if
> you're after a bigger chunk, especially if these chunks don't fit
> together properly, doesn't attract everyone. Neither does the public
> impression of "why the hell does each of these fellows play in
> everyone's private sandboxes instead of collaborating on fixing their
> most pressing issues together".

Yes - so what's wrong about convincing people rather than criticizing them
which apparently doesn't seem to get a collaboration done (other than that
convincing is usually more complicated, needs some empathy and more time)?

Stuart:

> Sorry to be a pedant, but this isn't quite true. I implemented METAR
> weather interpolation prior to 2.0.0 in August 2007 using X-values.

My apologies for missing that. My excuse is that none of the release
binaries I have (0.9.1, 1.9.1 and 2.0.0) shows such behaviour.

Vivian:

> Some more accuracy would be appreciated from you: Vivian is man's name,
> and a few seconds checking would have told you that this is indeed
> the case.

Well - then I've rather made a fool of myself with regard to the name... I
am very sorry. I just looked it up - it really is ambiguous:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vivian_(name)

As for misrepresenting your views - that's not what I have been trying to
do. I have been trying to explain how your views and comments may come
across to others, not trying to claim that this is how you think (which I
don't know).

> I'm sure you will agree peer review is not always a pleasant
> experience, perhaps this c

Re: [Flightgear-devel] Some community comments (was: Scenery Corner)

2010-12-23 Thread Vivian Meazza 
Thorsten wrote:

> 
> I also find it rather interesting to read something about the 'invisible'
> work behind the scenery - thank you for letting us know. It's sometimes
> difficult to appreciate the work that is not directly seen, and it helps a
> lot if you tell us.
> 
> Thanks for the hard work.
> 
> However, there is one sentence in your descriptions which I did not like,
> because it expresses a sentiment which I do not like at all about the
> Flightgear community. Please let me take the time to explain. The sentence
> I mean is
> 
> 
> > This sort
> > of "Scenery development" is substantially different from craving for
> > aaah's and oooh's on The Forum after you successfully managed to follow
> > an elaborate and nicely illustrated recipe on how to build FlightGear
> > Terrain.
> 
> I don't know for a fact what you want to imply, but it reminds me of
> something for example Vivian expressed a while ago with regard to judging
> cockpits by visual detail. Vivian wrote:
> 
> > I would suggest that as such it has little
> > value for a Flight Sim such as ours which values accuracy above all
> else.
> > Bit of fun for the forum though.
> 
> Let me now speak more to the audience at large, rather than to Martin
> personally... In both statements I read the following ideas (I don't know
> if you literally meant that - but that's what came across)
> 
> * while the mailinglist is for real work, the forum is just for playing
> around
> 
> * consequently, while the forum can be impressed by cheap tricks and eye
> candy, the 'real' development community cares about more important things
> such as accuracy
> 
> 
> Let me take a virtual needle and deflate the claims a bit. Until recently,
> Flightgear's idea of a weather change was that pressure, wind and
> visibility instantly jump from one value to another. Hardly what I would
> call accuracy. Doing it differently by means of an interpolation isn't
> even technically complicated (my 1/d weighted routine was 40 lines or so)
> or would require terrible computing power - there was just nobody
> sufficiently interested before 2.0.0 came out.
> 
> Or, as Emmanuel Baranger has pointed out repeatedly, the fact the JSBSim
> planes can frequently land on water can hardly be called accurate.
> 
> I could go on, but I think my point is clear - the Flightgear development
> community doesn't value accuracy as such, but each of you has some notion
> of where he would like to have more accuracy, and each of you has areas
> where he doesn't care about increased accuracy (for me, something like
> convective clouds behaving differently over water than over land is
> terribly important - having learned to fly gliders, I actually make use of
> the clues provided by the clouds... On the other hand, instruments not
> being precisely where they are in the original is not so important to me).
> 
> So, by what argument can Vivian really claim that she values accuracy
> higher than I do, when she has been fine with throwing the physics of
> convective clouds out?
> 
> I just can't see that any notion of accuracy is better than the other, and
> I think it's just plain wrong to think that way that one group of people
> likes accuracy and the other eye candy - visual detail is just another
> aspect of accuracy. So instead of alienating people who care about
> modelling, texturing, reflection shaders for exterior models and such
> things by referring to all that as 'fun for the forum', I think you'd be
> much better off by encouraging these people to improve the aspects they
> are interested in and kindly teaching them to value also the aspects which
> are important to you personally.
> 
> Frankly, the elitist attitude expressed in such sentences bothers me. I
> feel much more welcome in the forum - and as a result I usually write much
> more of my observations, progress reports and ideas in the forum. I also
> usually get as good response as I get here. So if you only read the list,
> there's lots of info which you're missing. Doesn't have to bother anyone
> here - maybe it's just not interesting to you personally. But I think it's
> be way more useful to encourage people to help (there's plenty to do after
> all) than to regard them all as not seriously enough.
> 
> So, now what happens - a few folks get involved, follow the elaborate and
> nicely illustrate recipe how to do things and actually produce scenery -
> to hear that what they do is just 'craving for aaah's and oooh's on The
> Forum', as opposed to 'the real thing'. Well - just how charming and
> encouraging is that?
> 
> I happen to enjoy the custom France, custom Ireland and custom Eastern
> Europe sceneries. For me, an existing imperfect scenery is worth more than
> a non-existing perfect scenery which I may be able to use in the future.
> As far as I am concerned, the involved parties have earned their 'aahs and
> oohs' (so has Martin).
> 
> So, I would prefer much if we could get around to respecting the work of
> others mor