Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
-- From: Jack Mermod jackmer...@gmail.com Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 12:41 AM To: Devel List flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? I would say that this technically possible. Limiting factors would be the structural strength of the aircraft (in this case the amount of negative G that the airframe can take) and the ability of the fuel system to keep the engines running when inverted. No doubt the gyros would have all tumbled. When I was responsible for the research simulator at BAC Weybridge I would sometimes try such stunts with aircraft such as the VC10. It was very difficult to do the whole of any looping manoeuvre whilst keeping within the flight envelope. (safe speed and G loading) The sheer power-to-weight ratio of such aircraft when empty is amazing. I remember being a passenger on a test flight with Brian Trubshaw in command doing circuits and bumps in a VC10 at RAE Bedford as part of the autoland program. There were only a couple of jump seats in the passenger cabin and I was standing at the cockpit door watching the plane land itself. It was necessary to hang on very tightly each time that the throttles went forward for the next go-around. Alan -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
[Flightgear-devel] ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok?
Hi, ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok? James Sleeman, Innis, Syd, who else? News media reports telecom problems too, advicing sms and email, and discouraging phone calls, even the police can't handle their part of the phone call stampede. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok?
I'm an ex Christchurch boy - my family are there, and OK, but distraught at what they've endured today. Andy Gorman is one list members name from Chch I remember - hoping all is well with him and others, but may be a day or 2 before we know as much infrastructure is damaged. Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Arnt Karlsen a...@c2i.net To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tue, 22 February, 2011 7:36:48 PM Subject: [Flightgear-devel] ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok? Hi, ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok? James Sleeman, Innis, Syd, who else? News media reports telecom problems too, advicing sms and email, and discouraging phone calls, even the police can't handle their part of the phone call stampede. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html --- Jack Mermod jackmer...@gmail.com schrieb am Di, 22.2.2011: Hi, I wasn't planning to get into an argument over the 777-200, but yes it does have an unrealistic FDM. See here: http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/891/picture5mj.png Are you telling me this is realistic too? Check Six, Jack In the 60's there was a Boeing 707 flying a barrel roll- I guess it is possible. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok?
Just had a SMS from one forum member that their house has totally been destroyed - family ok so that is the main thing but I can't imagine how they are feeling right now. Alex On 22 Feb 2011, at 10:18, Chris Wilkinson wrote: I'm an ex Christchurch boy - my family are there, and OK, but distraught at what they've endured today. Andy Gorman is one list members name from Chch I remember - hoping all is well with him and others, but may be a day or 2 before we know as much infrastructure is damaged. Regards, Chris Wilkinson, YBBN/BNE. From: Arnt Karlsen a...@c2i.net To: FlightGear developers discussions flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net Sent: Tue, 22 February, 2011 7:36:48 PM Subject: [Flightgear-devel] ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok? Hi, ..OT: Christchurch, NZ quake, are you FG Kiwis in or around CC ok? James Sleeman, Innis, Syd, who else? News media reports telecom problems too, advicing sms and email, and discouraging phone calls, even the police can't handle their part of the phone call stampede. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Gary Neely wrote: Syd places an enormous amount of effort and care into his models. If it were me, I'd think twice before questioning something he did, and I'd be darned sure I did my homework first, because it's certain he will have. But if he says he's interested in suggestions for improvements, he means it, and without ego. I have a friend who worked as a mechanical safety inspector at the Miami airport cargo facility back in the mid-90's, and he used to tell me of how unladen aircraft would sometimes depart at seemingly unbelievable steep angles. It was from his descriptions that I first started to understand the power of those engines that sit hidden in the throats of airliner intakes. I don't know what engine the FG 777-200 uses, but if it were equipped with a pair of GE-110B engines, you're looking at 220,200lbs of thrust on an airplane with an empty operating weight of about 297,000lbs. That's really close to a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and as a result that bird will climb like a homesick angel. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd by the clean end. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On 2/22/2011 8:35 AM, Gene Buckle wrote: On Tue, 22 Feb 2011, Gary Neely wrote: Syd places an enormous amount of effort and care into his models. If it were me, I'd think twice before questioning something he did, and I'd be darned sure I did my homework first, because it's certain he will have. But if he says he's interested in suggestions for improvements, he means it, and without ego. I have a friend who worked as a mechanical safety inspector at the Miami airport cargo facility back in the mid-90's, and he used to tell me of how unladen aircraft would sometimes depart at seemingly unbelievable steep angles. It was from his descriptions that I first started to understand the power of those engines that sit hidden in the throats of airliner intakes. I don't know what engine the FG 777-200 uses, but if it were equipped with a pair of GE-110B engines, you're looking at 220,200lbs of thrust on an airplane with an empty operating weight of about 297,000lbs. That's really close to a 1:1 thrust to weight ratio and as a result that bird will climb like a homesick angel. :) g. It looks like the model is of a 777-200ER, which is available with up to 93,700 lbf thrust per engine and 304,500 Lbs empty operating weight. A cursory look through the FDM confirms those specs, mass set at 315,000 Lbs. No expert here, but nothing basic jumps out as weird/wrong. -- Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. Free Software Download: http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
I am not a 777 pilot in real life, but I certainly agree with Jack that the FDM seems unrealistic to the casual pilot. For instance, fire up the 772ER and set the fuel tanks and payload weights to full capacity. Now make sure the flaps are set to 0. Take off, bear the blaring takeoff config warning, and keep the stick pulled back. Before long, the 777 will pitch up around 70 or so knots, and by 110 knots, you will be in the air. This hardly seems realistic. I'd also like to point out that the ailerons seem a bit ineffective, though perhaps this is designed to simulate the fly-by-wire on the real 777, or just to stabilize the autopilot. At this time, there is no viable replacement for the 772ER in the fgdata base package, and I'd be interested in hearing what Jack's better aircraft is. I'm trying to close that gap by working on the A330-300/A340-300 with Ampere, but it'll be a few months before either aircraft are completed and merged into fgdata. -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
On 02/22/2011 04:09 PM, Ryan M wrote: I am not a 777 pilot in real life, but I certainly agree with Jack that the FDM seems unrealistic to the casual pilot. For those interested (Curt made me look at a YASim file last week for the first time in over a year, so my head happened to be in the right place), I took a peek at why this would be: The 777-200 configuration I see in HEAD on gitorious has an approach setting that says it can stay in the air with 7 degrees of AoA (about half of the available lift) at 120 kts with 80% of its fuel and a full load. That strikes me as more than a little optimistic. This is a long haul jet, its fuel is a big fraction of its maximum weight, and typical landings for jet like this are made at what, 15% fuel or less? (It can stay in the air for 11 hours, and you only need 45 minutes of reserve fuel, right?) So some quick math says that if you take this aircraft which can produce 1G at 120kias and reduce its mass by a factor of 1.74x by dropping the passengers and using 10% fuel, and pull it up to a stall AoA, you'll get 3G of acceleration. Speed up to just 207 kias, and you can pull 9G in this plane. Yeah, that's a fighter jet. I'd suggest 131 kts (which matches the landing speed in the coments) and 10% fuel and see how that works. Andy -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
I had started this thread in hopes we would have a democracy type decision, and vote for the aircraft we think would be a best replacement. I rarely fly large jets, and usually fly helicopters, but I do think that the default jumbo jet should either have a few more restrictions so you can't take off at 70 kts. I do know an airline pilot that has flown the 777 before, maybe I'll ask him to come over and try our 777. On the subject of other aircraft than the 777; I think the BO-105 could be replaced with either the EC-135 or AH-1. The state of the BO-105 cockpit is not very good at the moment, and a great visual model along with a good FDM is what we want. I think I may set up a poll for informational proposes to help see what the majority really wants, as with some of the replies in this thread I cannot tell what some people believe should be done about these aircraft. Another developer did a lot of work on the BO-105 cockpit semi- recently, but his work was prevented from being committed to GIT by the BO-105's original author. (His motives for denying the work from GIT were a load of horse manure if you ask me.) As for the Dragonfly, the performance just seems unreal, thought I've never flown on myself. I think we could replace it with the Dromader, a much higher detail aircraft with a pretty extensively detailed FDM. I would also like to suggest that the MiG-15 be added as a default aircraft, since it's extreme detail and realism is far beyond that of any other aircraft we have. Literally every switch, knob and button works and has an effect, and every airframe limit is in the FDM. I do have one question, though. Every flightgear installation includes an aircraft called FG Video Assistant. It wont even start up. If I select and launch it, flightgear simply crashes at loading aircraft. What is the (intended) purpose of this aircraft? I think it should either be removed or repaired, as any aircraft that causes flightgear to crash may decrease a users opinion of the simulator. I'll see if I can think of any more aircraft we can replace/add. Check Six, Jack -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
Hi Jack, I think the BO-105 could be replaced with either the EC-135 or AH-1. The state of the BO-105 cockpit is not very good at the moment, and a great visual model along with a good FDM is what we want. Interesting. You want to see another aircraft than the 777 because the fdm is not realistic, but you don't want to see a chopper where the fdm is highly realistic and already prooved by a real pilot. As beeing the main author of the Ec-135 and Ec-130 I vote against including of my models due to said reasons. I think I may set up a poll for informational proposes to help see what the majority really wants, as with some of the replies in this thread I cannot tell what some people believe should be done about these aircraft. First this is not what the majority of USERS wants- that's what the majority of DEVELOPER's and release managers wants. Then the base package should show what FGFS is capable of and what's special about. Our realistic helicopter-fdm is special so we include a helicopter model which has a very realistic fdm: currently it is the bo105 and the UH-1. The UH-1 has some issues, so it will be quite sure that it will be the Bo-105! Another developer did a lot of work on the BO-105 cockpit semi- recently, but his work was prevented from being committed to GIT by the BO-105's original author. (His motives for denying the work from GIT were a load of horse manure if you ask me.) We had this dicussion already. Every developer has the right to refuse any contribution. You have the right on your AH-1 as well. And though it is a pity that Horacio's work hasn't been included, the right of the main developer to decide what contribution he will accept is above all. As for the Dragonfly, the performance just seems unreal, thought I've never flown on myself. I think we could replace it with the Dromader, a much higher detail aircraft with a pretty extensively detailed FDM. The Dragonfly seems not unrealistic to me. But yes, adding the Dromader would be good idea though. I would also like to suggest that the MiG-15 be added as a default aircraft, since it's extreme detail and realism is far beyond that of any other aircraft we have. Literally every switch, knob and button works and has an effect, and every airframe limit is in the FDM. Would be also not that bad. I do have one question, though. Every flightgear installation includes an aircraft called FG Video Assistant. It wont even start up. If I select and launch it, flightgear simply crashes at loading aircraft. What is the (intended) purpose of this aircraft? I think it should either be removed or repaired, as any aircraft that causes flightgear to crash may decrease a users opinion of the simulator. -- Bug tracker. The purpose was to have a camera assistent, and it worked quite good in the past. I'll see if I can think of any more aircraft we can replace/add. Proposals are welcome, but it will be decided later with counting all votes given here on the list. At least that way it worked the last years. Heiko -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
This is much more helpful than just a 'its unrealistic' and leave it at that. I,ve been testing some changes , it does tend to lift fairly early , but I think Ive got it a little closer now.I,ve so noticed a fuel.nas error at startup , so I'll tackle that one too. Thanks for the feedback guys.I'm currently on night shift which mean work,eat,sleep without much time in between for anything else , but should be able to fix this by the weekend. Cheers On Tue, Feb 22, 2011 at 5:30 PM, Andy Ross a...@plausible.org wrote: On 02/22/2011 04:09 PM, Ryan M wrote: I am not a 777 pilot in real life, but I certainly agree with Jack that the FDM seems unrealistic to the casual pilot. For those interested (Curt made me look at a YASim file last week for the first time in over a year, so my head happened to be in the right place), I took a peek at why this would be: The 777-200 configuration I see in HEAD on gitorious has an approach setting that says it can stay in the air with 7 degrees of AoA (about half of the available lift) at 120 kts with 80% of its fuel and a full load. That strikes me as more than a little optimistic. This is a long haul jet, its fuel is a big fraction of its maximum weight, and typical landings for jet like this are made at what, 15% fuel or less? (It can stay in the air for 11 hours, and you only need 45 minutes of reserve fuel, right?) So some quick math says that if you take this aircraft which can produce 1G at 120kias and reduce its mass by a factor of 1.74x by dropping the passengers and using 10% fuel, and pull it up to a stall AoA, you'll get 3G of acceleration. Speed up to just 207 kias, and you can pull 9G in this plane. Yeah, that's a fighter jet. I'd suggest 131 kts (which matches the landing speed in the coments) and 10% fuel and see how that works. Andy -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Default Aircraft Candidates
Another thing I've noticed when flying the 772ER long distances (KIND to EDDF, about 10-15% fuel consumed) is that fuel consumption seems abnormally low. I'm far from a YASim expert, but I've heard this may be due to an overly high lift ratio in the FDM. The 777's is around 193; perhaps this should be reduced to 120? On the other hand, adjusting the approach params may mitigate this issue entirely. YASim is a very complex system to balance... -- Free Software Download: Index, Search Analyze Logs and other IT data in Real-Time with Splunk. Collect, index and harness all the fast moving IT data generated by your applications, servers and devices whether physical, virtual or in the cloud. Deliver compliance at lower cost and gain new business insights. http://p.sf.net/sfu/splunk-dev2dev ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
