subject:"\[Flightgear\-devel\] News from FlightProSim\!"

Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-18 Thread Erik Hofman

Martin Spott wrote:
> Curtis Olson wrote:
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Martin Spott wrote some stuff about the web
>> page:
> 
>> Pete and I agreed (I think) that we probably don't want to ultimately do the
>> official flightgear web site as a google apps engine page.  That locks us
>> into a closed source, proprietary situation for the web site.
> 
> As already elaborated here, using the Django API on Google App Engine
> will result in a nicely portable site. Please dont't try to make us
> believe that there's just black and white, it's just not true.

Also, it's just the site. Creating the basics for a new site is less 
work than recreating FlightGear itself. (I know that setting up a 
complete site can be a huge task but the site for FlightGear could in 
essence just be a bunch of links). I wouldn't worry on vendor lock too 
much for webservices.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-18 Thread Martin Spott

Curtis Olson wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Martin Spott wrote some stuff about the web
> page:

> Pete and I agreed (I think) that we probably don't want to ultimately do the
> official flightgear web site as a google apps engine page.  That locks us
> into a closed source, proprietary situation for the web site.

As already elaborated here, using the Django API on Google App Engine
will result in a nicely portable site. Please dont't try to make us
believe that there's just black and white, it's just not true.

> What we suggested might be a way to move forward would be to migrate some of
> Pete's other people's ideas and feedback into the current web site.

Hmmm, taping some reinforcement to the undercarriage and replacing the
engine still requires a lot !! of work but is in no way a means for
turning a VW Beetle into a Porsche   ;-)
Some _core_ deficiencies will still remain, and if "we" are aiming at
prominent headlines, then we'd probably better go for the Porsche,
since the 'competition' is driving a simiar car - at minimum.

Cheers,
Martin.

P.S.: Recently a Ferrari Enzo has been driving by our house several
  times a week, I assume one of the neighbours is the owner.
  The machine sounds as if you were burning a row of small
  firecrackers  ;-)
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Pete Morgan


>
> I spent some time using Pete's menu css and trying to build a column 
> of menus down the left side of the screen.  I have an initial version. 
>  Some of that I like, but I'm just not happy with how it's coming 
> together yet.
>
> Curt.

Your going to be running around in circles until its got valid (x)html, 
eg html4. All sorts of silly stuff can happen in presentation/ style 
sheet if html/css is invalid.

pete

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Vivian Meazza

Patrice Poly

> 
> I have been reading the mail archive and forums about this story, then
> went on the FPS website and read their disclaimer.
> 
> >From what I saw, and given that my understanding of GPL and copyrights
> might be wrong, here are my thoughts :
> 
> I think what this person(s) do here is *almost* legal.
> 
> They are commercially distributing a GPL software in order to make
> profit, which is clearly allowed by the GPL licence,
> provided that the seller makes the source code accessible.
> 
> I could find a link to some sources in their disclaimer.
> I did not parse the whole provided archive, so I don't know if every bit
> of FG sources are here.
> I am not sure if providing a download link is enough, or if they should
> provide the sources with the commercial CD/DVD they sell.
> Also, I don't know if they provide the source with the CD/DVDs.
> 

I found a link and downloaded the sources. AFAIKS he is offering FG 1.9.1
unchanged in any way that I could discover. So I reckon he's legal.

We might take the view that he's doing the marketing that we can't/won't do
and spreading FG more widely than we could otherwise achieve. Of course,
people would get ripped off. But - caveat emptor - it's not our job to
shepherd unwise shoppers.

Or we could take a different tack and offer FG for sale at a price that
undercuts his wherever and whenever we find FPS. I don't think he could long
sustain his effort in the face of that. And we could do with a bit of petty
cash. But who would take that one on? With all the tax and accounting
implications?

Finally, I made a rare visit to our website today. We appear to offer every
flightsim for download apart from our own - which was scrolled of the page.
Well, FlightSim Pro wasn't there - but give it time. Surely we can do
better? Pete Morgan seemed to have a handle on this one. And I can't see why
we have suddenly got out knickers in a twist over Google: it's happily
underpinned MPMap for years.

My tuppence worth.

Vivian





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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread kyle keevill

Curt,

I can help out organization wise and can provide some really good feedback on 
the site.

Let me know.

--
Kyle
On Mar 17, 2010, at 6:56 PM, Curtis Olson wrote:

> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Martin Spott wrote some stuff about the web 
> page:
> 
> A couple brief comments on the web site.
> 
> Pete and I agreed (I think) that we probably don't want to ultimately do the 
> official flightgear web site as a google apps engine page.  That locks us 
> into a closed source, proprietary situation for the web site.
> 
> What we suggested might be a way to move forward would be to migrate some of 
> Pete's other people's ideas and feedback into the current web site.
> 
> I spent some time using Pete's menu css and trying to build a column of menus 
> down the left side of the screen.  I have an initial version.  Some of that I 
> like, but I'm just not happy with how it's coming together yet.  First we 
> have too many menu options to really make that approach work right now (thus 
> some reorg work really needs to be done), and it's a good time to perhaps 
> think about what all is in or out of the menus because not everything that's 
> there makes as much sense as it used to, and there are probably some things 
> that really should get dropped in there.  Again, in terms of menu content, I 
> think we can agree that Pete's example page doesn't cover many of the items 
> that are currently in the FlightGear web page menu structure and adds some 
> different things that aren't currently in the FlightGear menu structure.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Curt.
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
> --
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel


Kyle Keevill
kyle...@gmail.com



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Curtis Olson

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Martin Spott wrote some stuff about the web
page:

A couple brief comments on the web site.

Pete and I agreed (I think) that we probably don't want to ultimately do the
official flightgear web site as a google apps engine page.  That locks us
into a closed source, proprietary situation for the web site.

What we suggested might be a way to move forward would be to migrate some of
Pete's other people's ideas and feedback into the current web site.

I spent some time using Pete's menu css and trying to build a column of
menus down the left side of the screen.  I have an initial version.  Some of
that I like, but I'm just not happy with how it's coming together yet.
 First we have too many menu options to really make that approach work right
now (thus some reorg work really needs to be done), and it's a good time to
perhaps think about what all is in or out of the menus because not
everything that's there makes as much sense as it used to, and there are
probably some things that really should get dropped in there.  Again, in
terms of menu content, I think we can agree that Pete's example page doesn't
cover many of the items that are currently in the FlightGear web page menu
structure and adds some different things that aren't currently in the
FlightGear menu structure.

Regards,

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Martin Spott

Curtis Olson wrote:

> I wish to second this!  FlightGear has never really gone on a marketing
> offensive.  Marketing takes a lot of time and effort, so it's hard for
> people who are developing code or aircraft or working on other aspects of
> the project to find a lot of additional time to do marketing on top of
> everything else.

Well, at least a minor step into a reasonable direction would be _not_
to dedicate prominent areas of the "flagship of the projects' marketing
tools" - the main website - to 3rd party advertisement, and to let
knowledgeable people develop not only a better design for the site but
also a better concept for dealing with, updating the content.

Let's be honest, in its current state the site isn't well suited to be
shown around as an appealing intro into learning what the project is
about. If we're seriously going into competition for headlines, then we
should make sure, _beforehand_, not to have a primary web site which
has such an embarrassing look (and feel) as the current one.

BTW, it's generally understandable that nobody wants to dive deeply
into developing a nice web representation for FlightGear if they don't
see a change of getting the result accepted as the new site.
While I'm uncertain wether I agree with every detail of Pete Morgan's
proposal for a web site re-design, I think he deserves a real chance of
getting his work accepted as The New Site, if he's doing a proper job.
As far as I can tell, he'll be able to recruit people supporting (t)his
effort, thus he doesn't have to shoulder all the work himself.

Cheers,
Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread John Denker

First, a parable:  

  The local supermarket sells shiitake mushrooms for 
  $5.00 per ounce.  About a mile down the road there 
  is an ethnic market that sells the same kind of 
  mushrooms for $5.00 per *pound*.

  You might have been told in high school that this 
  kind of thing can never happen in an efficient 
  market.  Well ... it turns out that the mushroom 
  market is not efficient.

  You might say wow, that's a huge markup.  I agree, 
  it's a huge markup.  On the other hand, huge markups 
  are perfectly legal.  There is nothing anybody can 
  do about it, except maybe to shop around.

Other examples abound.  Year after year, people buy
"breakfast cereal" despite the amazingly high markup.

In early 1976, a Mattel vice president compared a game 
I had written to a Pet Rock.  He meant it as the highest 
compliment, referring to something that millions of
people would gladly buy, even though there was obviously 
a high markup.
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pet_Rock

On 03/17/2010 08:07 AM, Patrice Poly wrote:

> I think what this person(s) do here is *almost* legal.

I am not a lawyer, and I will not opine as to 
whether any particular thing is legal, but we
certainly must consider the hypothesis that what
FPS is doing is legal.  It's a plausible hypothesis.

Is FPS making money off of GPL software?  Yes ...
but that is expressly permitted by the GPL subject 
to some not-very-onerous conditions.  We can insist 
that FPS strictly uphold the conditions, but that 
will not stop FPS from doing the things that list 
members find most distasteful.

Is FPS charging a huge markup?  Yes, definitely ...
but there is nothing illegal about that.  Some of
the suggestions offered in this forum for trying
to prevent that would violate the letter and spirit
of the GPL.  Loosely speaking, the point of the GPL
is to prevent people -- including us -- from modifying
GPL software so as to make it non-GPL.

Is FPS guilty of plagiarism?  Yes, definitely ...
but this is not illegal, either.  It is IMHO morally
reprehensible, but it is permitted by the GPL.  In
another context, if you want to disallow plagiarism, 
you should use a Creative Commons / attribution license 
or some such.  The GPL was designed by and for people 
who thought the anti-plagiarism provisions of the BSD 
license were too much trouble.  In the context of FG, 
short of starting over and rewriting FG from scratch, 
I cannot imagine any way of "porting" FG to a more-
restrictive license.

==

So, what *can* be done?

For starters, in this situation as in so many others,
sunlight is an excellent disinfectant.  If the FPS
guy is touting his wares in any open forum, you can
speak up in that forum, early and often, so that 
buyers know where to go for the cheapest and most 
up-to-date FG versions.  Don't get mad, just get 
the facts out.

You can even go so far as to write articles for the
various PC simulator magazines.  This includes
articles announcing the latest version of FG ...
and also perhaps articles doing a review, comparing
price and features, of the various offerings.  I
reckon somebody who increases the price without
increasing the features would not fare well in such
a comparison.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Patrice Poly

I have been reading the mail archive and forums about this story, then
went on the FPS website and read their disclaimer.

>From what I saw, and given that my understanding of GPL and copyrights
might be wrong, here are my thoughts :

I think what this person(s) do here is *almost* legal.

They are commercially distributing a GPL software in order to make
profit, which is clearly allowed by the GPL licence,
provided that the seller makes the source code accessible.

I could find a link to some sources in their disclaimer.
I did not parse the whole provided archive, so I don't know if every bit
of FG sources are here.
I am not sure if providing a download link is enough, or if they should
provide the sources with the commercial CD/DVD they sell.
Also, I don't know if they provide the source with the CD/DVDs.


On the other hand, it seems from what I have read, that some of the
pictures used in their website are screenshots coming from either the
wiki, or from personal websites / blogs of FG users.

In the case of the wiki, I understand the contents are provided under
GPL. I am not sure how GPL works for images, my guess is that as long as
the images on the website are linked to the wiki sources, the website
holders must be safe.
In the case of personal screenshots from personal blogs/ websites, it
would depend on the licensing that their holders choosed.
I see in the website disclaimers that they are willing to remove images
if the copyright holders ask so.


So, basically, if the source providing part and the image copyrights
conditions are met, I think what is done here is just legal.

It doesn't mean that I approve it entirely.
When some commercial linux distributors include flightgear in their pay
packages, I see it as a nice feature, and a 'plus' for that distribution.
What the FPS team seems to be making is just easy money based on
thousands man hour work, without other justification than simple profit.

Ethically, this is a little bit border line in my opinion... but ( again
if conditions are met ), this is just what the GPL allows.

I didn't do much contributions to Flightgear, but the few I made, I did
perfectly knowing that someone could reuse it for a commercial project,
so despite the questionnable ethics in this story, I am not that upset.

I see some people really upset and quite surprised, and I perfectly
understand their feeling when they see that their hard work is being
piped into some company's wallet. I presume there might be a need for
better communicating what the GPL is to Flightgear new contributors,
before their work is added to the project.

I don't know how this could be done, though. Maybe asking contributors
to include a copy of the license text with their work ? Maybe having a '
are you sure you understand what GPL is ' paragraph in the developer
wiki portal ?

Anyways, my opinion is that FlightGear and its contents SHOULD remain
GPL based. This is what makes its great strength, what makes it an
amazingly alive and vibrant project, that constantly evolves and
progresses day after day, answering the needs and wishes of its userbase
in good freedom and friendship feeling.
The fact to  include our work, be it code or some aircraft model, under
the GPL is just our choice. If someone feels better to have it separate,
under other types of licensing, like Creative Commons for instance, the
choice is their too ! But again I think there is a need for some way to
clearly explain people what the licenses really mean, before new work is
commited, in order to avoid bitter surprises like we see now.

I presume nothing can prevent some people with little consideration to
make commercial attempts from time to time based on the FG team work...
but as this has been said here, what future have these commercial
projects when people will see that they can get the same product for
free, with a wonderful community support and lifetime updates for
nothing more than a hello in a chat or mailing list ?



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Curtis Olson

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 9:00 AM, Peter Brown wrote:

> While I truly hope this group, or multiple groups can get together and
> bring him to task for his wrongs, publication of "FlightGear.org as a
> BETTER simulator, which also happens to be FREE, and by the way, that other
> simulator is just a copy of ours that you have to pay for" may be the best
> way to be combative.  Go on the offense, publicize the heck out of it.
>  Encourage users to post more youtube videos, publish your own, make sure
> every website page has the best language for the google bots to promote
> FlightGear.org as better, with free being a side benefit.
>
> I say this for it seems that marketing is his game, although purely a sham.
>  Let's beat him at it, honestly.
>

I wish to second this!  FlightGear has never really gone on a marketing
offensive.  Marketing takes a lot of time and effort, so it's hard for
people who are developing code or aircraft or working on other aspects of
the project to find a lot of additional time to do marketing on top of
everything else.

Can we do distributed / open-source marketing?  What would that look like?
 Would we be able to get some volunteers to put some time into a marketing
effort?

Based on my slim experience, I will propose that our biggest bang for the
buck (or for our efforts) would be to get mentioned on popular web sites.
 I.e. a release announcement on slashdot or one of the popular flight sim
web sites.

Contacting magazine editors is another thing we could be doing.  For
example, last fall I stumbled across "PC PILOT" on the new stand.  It's a
great magazine ... full of really cool, realy splashy, screen shots.  I
noticed a trend though ... 90-95% of the magazine was dedicated to reviewing
aircraft and scenery add ons for MSFS.  If we had time to establish
a relationship with some different magazine editors, I think that would be
beneficial.  Again, based on my slim experience, magazine editors want to
sell magazines and advertising, so the more attractive and interesting they
can make their publication, the better.  If we can offer some fresh and
interesting content, they might suck that right up and run with it.  A
splashy headline on the front of the magazine might be all it takes to get
another person to pick it up and buy a copy ...

Again, based on my slim experience, it seems like whenever we do get a
mention on a prominent web site, our own web traffic spikes, lots of new
visitors come check out our web page for the first time, lots of new users
download FlightGear and try it out.  Probably our all time greatest spike
(bigger than slashdot) was when we were mentioned as Kim Kommando's "cool
site of the day."

So in my view, our biggest bang for our effort will be to establish
relationships with the editors of large web sites and popular magazines and
try to get interesting news announcements and content pushed out through
their publications.  But there is a reason companies hire full time
marketing folks ... it takes time and energy and effort to establish the
relationships with key people and time and effort to create quality "news"
content to feed them, and then do this on a continual basis so we continue
to look "fresh".

An announcement on slashdot rolls off the end of the page after a day or two
(or a couple hours even.)  For a print magazine, once this month is done,
everyone is moving on to next month.

I think our newsletter is a great example of keeping "fresh" information
alive, but we need to take that sort of information and "push" it out to our
different information distribution channels ... and we need to establish
those channels in the first place.

Best regards,

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Peter Brown

As much as I'd hope what you say would be true, realistically there is not much 
of a downside for this guy.  Everyday people make purchases without knowing all 
the facts, and for more money buying online than locally.  (Ebay can be a good 
example)  From his side of it, unless someone or group is willing to take it 
through the legal process, any sale he gets is free money to him.  And if 
someone does take to court, does anyone know what to expect for an outcome?  
Would it be more than a simple "stop order"?  If not, he's already stolen money 
from unknowning customers, so he's still ahead of the game.

While I truly hope this group, or multiple groups can get together and bring 
him to task for his wrongs, publication of "FlightGear.org as a BETTER 
simulator, which also happens to be FREE, and by the way, that other simulator 
is just a copy of ours that you have to pay for" may be the best way to be 
combative.  Go on the offense, publicize the heck out of it.  Encourage users 
to post more youtube videos, publish your own, make sure every website page has 
the best language for the google bots to promote FlightGear.org as better, with 
free being a side benefit.

I say this for it seems that marketing is his game, although purely a sham.  
Let's beat him at it, honestly.

my .02 worth.
Peter

On Mar 17, 2010, at 8:38 AM, Jon S. Berndt wrote:

> I think this is exactly true. And what happens to this guy when more and more 
> people start finding out that they have paid money for something they could 
> have gotten for free?
>  
> Jon
>  
>  
> From: Curtis Olson [mailto:curtol...@gmail.com] 
> 
> The guy is building his business on a charade ... and that is a hard thing to 
> keep up long term.  He has to spend a large percentage of his time 
> maintaining his charade, covering his tracks, etc.  I can't even remember my 
> own forum password half the time ... and this guy has to remember a bunch of 
> user names and passwords.  He probably has sticky notes all over his monitor. 
>  Maybe he's really good at that sort of thing and will have some leeching 
> success, but it's a shaky business model that could come crashing down around 
> him at any time.  He's always going to be looking over his shoulder ... 
> hoping he doesn't inadvertently swindle the wrong person in the wrong country 
> ... hoping the major publications don't catch on to him ... hoping if 
> something does go wrong he can duck into the shadows and re-emerge somewhere 
> else ... reality has a way of catching up with these guys eventually.
>  
> Curt.
> -- 
> Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Jon S. Berndt

I think this is exactly true. And what happens to this guy when more and
more people start finding out that they have paid money for something they
could have gotten for free?

 

Jon

 

 

From: Curtis Olson [mailto:curtol...@gmail.com] 



The guy is building his business on a charade ... and that is a hard thing
to keep up long term.  He has to spend a large percentage of his time
maintaining his charade, covering his tracks, etc.  I can't even remember my
own forum password half the time ... and this guy has to remember a bunch of
user names and passwords.  He probably has sticky notes all over his
monitor.  Maybe he's really good at that sort of thing and will have some
leeching success, but it's a shaky business model that could come crashing
down around him at any time.  He's always going to be looking over his
shoulder ... hoping he doesn't inadvertently swindle the wrong person in the
wrong country ... hoping the major publications don't catch on to him ...
hoping if something does go wrong he can duck into the shadows and re-emerge
somewhere else ... reality has a way of catching up with these guys
eventually.

 

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Detlef Faber

Am Mittwoch, den 17.03.2010, 07:57 +0100 schrieb Tim Moore:
> 


> I'm not worried about introducing our own violations of the GPL by
> putting planes under a second license. I strongly believe that
> modelers should use whatever license they want. There may be issues
> with calling GPL'ed Nasal code, borrowing, etc., but that's beside the
> point. I have been making contributions to Flightgear for the last 3
> years in the belief that it will remain under the GPL. The GPL assures
> me that future users of the code will want to share their
> contributions as well. This rewards my time spent by encouraging a
> growing community and code base. If Flightgear starts retreating from
> the GPL out of misplaced worries about mooching, I'd have to reexamine
> how I spend my hacking time.
> 
I pretty much agree that FG should stay GPL. And there is a benefit in
putting content under GPL too. Aircraft modelling has become a huge task
with todays features (which of course is a good thing). So any
contribution is welcome. Personally I'd only contribute to GPL Projects.

However I see some new strategy in FlightProSim actions. It appears this
guy wants to divorce developers off from flightgear, either by
discrediting and lying on his "review-sites", calling out "monthly
development prizes" on the mailing list or by calling to "Join
FlightProSim" in our forums.


Greetings


-- 
Detlef Faber

http://www.sol2500.net/flightgear



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-17 Thread Erik Hofman

Tim Moore wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Rob Oates >Our models and our code should be seen as two separate entities,
>>that is all that I'm suggesting.
> 
> I'm having trouble seeing the difference between "highly detailed models 
> and artwork" and significant code contributions in terms of the ethics 
> of making money off them.

True, if it weren't for tens of thousands of hours of developer time to 
develop and extend the code then the highly detailed models would just 
be sitting on someones hard drive. The code base took almost 15 years to 
mature to it's current state.

That's what made me start to hate the guy who was the reason this 
discussion started; He is trying to make anyone believe that because he 
makes money of our work, his code base is better than ours since 
"FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and time goes into 
it than a volunteer one."
Idiot.

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Tim Moore

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 1:21 AM, Rob Oates  wrote:

> Hmm ... the planes in Flightgear are just models, they don't require
> simgear and terragear to function. Furthermore I would find it extremely
> bizarre for an airplane model to be a dependency in order for Flightgear to
> work.
>
> I'm not worried about introducing our own violations of the GPL by putting
planes under a second license. I strongly believe that modelers should use
whatever license they want. There may be issues with calling GPL'ed Nasal
code, borrowing, etc., but that's beside the point. I have been making
contributions to Flightgear for the last 3 years in the belief that it will
remain under the GPL. The GPL assures me that future users of the code will
want to share their contributions as well. This rewards my time spent by
encouraging a growing community and code base. If Flightgear starts
retreating from the GPL out of misplaced worries about mooching, I'd have to
reexamine how I spend my hacking time.

I know that every developer and modeler sees this differently. One could
point out that most of my contributions are to SimGear, which is under the
weaker LGPL. Whatever; for all practical purposes it's tied closely to the
GPL'ed FlightGear. I view the "mooching" with the attitude of "there's no
such thing as bad publicity."

I think it's reasonable to say there should be a clear separation between
> content and code. Clearly you folks are bothered by the this Pro-sim guy's
> constant mooching ... but the license allows him to do what he does. I have
> no qualms about him distributing the core flightgear simulation program in
> another form (hey let him be responsible for his own support), but I do
> think it's unethical for people to make money off of our highly detailed
> models and our artwork.
>
> Pro-sim is no more than an annoyance. The whole thing is quite pathetic,
especially http://www.flightsimgamereviews.com/. I assure you that that is a
stock image in the header :)

Our models and our code should be seen as two separate entities, that is all
> that I'm suggesting.
>
I'm having trouble seeing the difference between "highly detailed models and
artwork" and significant code contributions in terms of the ethics of making
money off them.

Tim

>
> Thanks,
>
> -Rob
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Tim Moore  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Rob Oates  wrote:
>>
>>> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more
>>> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over
>>> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes
>>> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial
>>> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission
>>> to use them.
>>>
>>> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be
>>> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ...
>>> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.
>>>
>>> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>>>
>>> my 2 cents
>>>
>>> I'm not so keen on mixing my GPled code contributions with non-GPLed
>> content.
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim

2010-03-16 Thread J. Holden

I've /probably/ done the most extensive amount of research into this at the 
moment, some key points:

1) If we want or need legal representation, please visit 
http://www.softwarefreedom.org/

I have already contacted them, so please don't send them a bunch of emails 
about FlightProSim.

2) FlightProSim has at least one violation of the GPL2 because they distribute 
the source code on their website; they need to either distribute the source 
code with their product or provide a written offer for up to three years under 
subsection 3b of the GPL. 

3) FPS may be in further violation of the GPL under section 2a, which states 
the modified files must contain notices they were modified from the original 
FlightGear source code. I have not done this investigation.

4) I have strongly recommended in the past that FGRun or FGFS contain some sort 
of copyright statement. However, my suggestion was dismissed. JUST BECAUSE YOU 
CONTRIBUTE TO FLIGHTGEAR DOES NOT MEAN YOU FORFEIT YOUR COPYRIGHT.

So let me make this suggestion again.

On the splash screen, or somewhere on the launcher, or under the "about" menu, 
include the following text:

"FlightGear is copyright by its respective contributors. Please refer to the 
source code for the copyright to specific components of the software.

You may redistribute FlightGear under the terms of the GPL version 2. 
FlightGear comes with absolutely no warranties."

Perhaps the reason this suggestion was dismissed so readily is that I suggested 
that FlightGear become one copyright holder by aggregating the copyrights of 
the contributors. However, the reason I believe adding this text to be 
important is:

1) Any future distributors cannot obfuscate this copyright or else they are in 
violation of the GPLv2 section 1;

2) If they do obfuscate the copyright, they must also edit the file to say they 
obfuscated the copyright under the GPLv2 section 2a to be compliant, which is 
sort-of beside the point;

3) It makes it easy to check to see if there's been a GPL violation even if 
everything else appears okay, because the copyright appears on something other 
than the source code.

Even just adding text such as "www.flightgear.org" to the splash screen would 
require someone who modifies and redistributes the program to comply with 1) 
and 2) in the second-list set out above if they wished to disguise the program 
as being FlightGear. Now, there ARE some people who legitimately use FlightGear 
who need to may wish to disguise the fact the program is FlightGear - I'm 
thinking airplane simulators - but they can easily comply with the GPL by 
remarking how they modified the file from the original FlightGear version.

Finally, we should be seeking to make violators comply with the GPL, not shut 
them down, even if they're distributing our program for profit. If it's 
GPL-compliant, this still helps us, even if someone is making money off our 
work.

Now, some opinion:

In my opinion Aircraft and scenery models in the base package need to remain 
GPL, as this allows for easier license management. If you don't want other 
people profiting off your work, release your add-on as a third party add-on 
under a different license. I'm sure there are people who legitimately make 
money as a direct result of FlightGear, and because of the GPL, you may even be 
able to "dishonestly" make some money off of the product, but if you're 
compliant we can't constrict your right to do so,

Cheers
John

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Rob Oates

Well you should know how to pick your fights ... you don't have to chase
every single violator, just pressure the one or two who are giving you the
hardest time (like this Pro-sim guy). At least by changing the license on
some of the planes and art work (which are not dependent on anything already
inside of flightgear) it at least gives you the power to pursue a copyright
law suit.  Most people will back off if you have something tangible to
pursue them with. But as it stands right now, only the stolen pictures on
his website are about the only copyright infringing thing he has done the
flightgear community.

-R



On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Adam Dershowitz
wrote:

> That only helps make it clear if someone is violating a copyright.  It
> doesn't help enforce it.  If the license is changed, and then someone were
> to go and sell FG with those aircraft who would hire the lawyer bring the
> copyright violation law suit?
>
> --Adam
>
>
>
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:26 PM, kyle keevill wrote:
>
> Last I heard, The GPL license was applied to all the planes hosted on the
> FG website. I do believe however, that if we do take our own planes and put
> them in a restrictive CC license and then give permission for FG and only FG
> to use them, then we may be able to do some good.
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Rob Oates wrote:
>
> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more
> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over
> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes
> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial
> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission
> to use them.
>
> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be
> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ...
> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.
>
> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>
> my 2 cents
>
> -Rob
>
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Pete Morgan wrote:
>
>> Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
>> pete
>>
>> Hello Peter,
>>
>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL
>> does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a
>> software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL
>> with regard to making the source code available on request*.
>>
>> It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as
>> they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they
>> can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.
>>
>> There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki
>> content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright*
>> and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing
>> commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright
>> infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or
>> represent) the copyright holder*.
>>
>> As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore
>> both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of
>> copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement)
>> with the FlightProSim.com people.
>>
>> One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing
>> Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php
>> 
>>
>> We'll investigate that.
>>
>> Let me know if you have any further questions.
>>
>> Kind regards,
>>
>> Dave Lane
>> NZOSS council member
>>
>>
>> --
>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>>
>
>
> --
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> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
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>
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>
>
> 
> Kyle Keevill
> kyle...@gmail.com
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread kyle keevill

Good point, didn't account for that.
On Mar 16, 2010, at 8:05 PM, Adam Dershowitz wrote:

> That only helps make it clear if someone is violating a copyright.  It 
> doesn't help enforce it.  If the license is changed, and then someone were to 
> go and sell FG with those aircraft who would hire the lawyer bring the 
> copyright violation law suit?
> 
> --Adam
> 
> 
> 
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:26 PM, kyle keevill wrote:
> 
>> Last I heard, The GPL license was applied to all the planes hosted on the FG 
>> website. I do believe however, that if we do take our own planes and put 
>> them in a restrictive CC license and then give permission for FG and only FG 
>> to use them, then we may be able to do some good.
>> On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Rob Oates wrote:
>> 
>>> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more 
>>> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over 
>>> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes 
>>> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial 
>>> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request 
>>> permission to use them.
>>> 
>>> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be 
>>> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system 
>>> ... not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.  
>>> 
>>> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>>> 
>>> my 2 cents
>>> 
>>> -Rob 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
>>> Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
>>> pete
>>> 
>>> Hello Peter,
>>> 
>>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL
>>> does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a
>>> software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL
>>> with regard to making the source code available on request*.
>>> 
>>> It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as
>>> they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they
>>> can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.
>>> 
>>> There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki
>>> content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright*
>>> and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing
>>> commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright
>>> infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or
>>> represent) the copyright holder*.
>>> 
>>> As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore
>>> both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of
>>> copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement)
>>> with the FlightProSim.com people.
>>> 
>>> One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing
>>> Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php
>>> 
>>> 
>>> We'll investigate that.
>>> 
>>> Let me know if you have any further questions.
>>> 
>>> Kind regards,
>>> 
>>> Dave Lane
>>> NZOSS council member
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>>> ___
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>>> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>>> 
>>> --
>>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev___
>>> Flightgear-devel mailing list
>>> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>> 
>> 
>> Kyle Keevill
>> kyle...@gmail.com
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> --
>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev___
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>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
> 
> ---

Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Adam Dershowitz

That only helps make it clear if someone is violating a copyright.  It doesn't 
help enforce it.  If the license is changed, and then someone were to go and 
sell FG with those aircraft who would hire the lawyer bring the copyright 
violation law suit?

--Adam



On Mar 16, 2010, at 4:26 PM, kyle keevill wrote:

> Last I heard, The GPL license was applied to all the planes hosted on the FG 
> website. I do believe however, that if we do take our own planes and put them 
> in a restrictive CC license and then give permission for FG and only FG to 
> use them, then we may be able to do some good.
> On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Rob Oates wrote:
> 
>> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more 
>> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over 
>> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes 
>> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial 
>> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission 
>> to use them.
>> 
>> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be 
>> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ... 
>> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.  
>> 
>> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>> 
>> my 2 cents
>> 
>> -Rob 
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
>> Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
>> pete
>> 
>> Hello Peter,
>> 
>> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL
>> does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a
>> software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL
>> with regard to making the source code available on request*.
>> 
>> It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as
>> they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they
>> can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.
>> 
>> There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki
>> content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright*
>> and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing
>> commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright
>> infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or
>> represent) the copyright holder*.
>> 
>> As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore
>> both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of
>> copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement)
>> with the FlightProSim.com people.
>> 
>> One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing
>> Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php
>> 
>> 
>> We'll investigate that.
>> 
>> Let me know if you have any further questions.
>> 
>> Kind regards,
>> 
>> Dave Lane
>> NZOSS council member
>> 
>> --
>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>> ___
>> Flightgear-devel mailing list
>> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>> 
>> --
>> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev___
>> Flightgear-devel mailing list
>> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
> 
> 
> Kyle Keevill
> kyle...@gmail.com
> 
> 
> 
> --
> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Rob Oates

Hmm ... the planes in Flightgear are just models, they don't require simgear
and terragear to function. Furthermore I would find it extremely bizarre for
an airplane model to be a dependency in order for Flightgear to work.

I think it's reasonable to say there should be a clear separation between
content and code. Clearly you folks are bothered by the this Pro-sim guy's
constant mooching ... but the license allows him to do what he does. I have
no qualms about him distributing the core flightgear simulation program in
another form (hey let him be responsible for his own support), but I do
think it's unethical for people to make money off of our highly detailed
models and our artwork.

Our models and our code should be seen as two separate entities, that is all
that I'm suggesting.

Thanks,

-Rob

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 7:24 PM, Tim Moore  wrote:

>
>
> On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Rob Oates  wrote:
>
>> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more
>> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over
>> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes
>> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial
>> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission
>> to use them.
>>
>> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be
>> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ...
>> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.
>>
>> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>>
>> my 2 cents
>>
>> I'm not so keen on mixing my GPled code contributions with non-GPLed
> content.
>
> Tim
>
>
>
> --
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread kyle keevill

Last I heard, The GPL license was applied to all the planes hosted on the FG 
website. I do believe however, that if we do take our own planes and put them 
in a restrictive CC license and then give permission for FG and only FG to use 
them, then we may be able to do some good.
On Mar 16, 2010, at 7:18 PM, Rob Oates wrote:

> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more 
> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over 
> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes 
> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial 
> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission 
> to use them.
> 
> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be 
> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ... 
> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.  
> 
> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
> 
> my 2 cents
> 
> -Rob 
> 
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:
> Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
> pete
> 
> Hello Peter,
> 
> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL
> does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a
> software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL
> with regard to making the source code available on request*.
> 
> It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as
> they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they
> can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.
> 
> There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki
> content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright*
> and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing
> commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright
> infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or
> represent) the copyright holder*.
> 
> As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore
> both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of
> copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement)
> with the FlightProSim.com people.
> 
> One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing
> Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php
> 
> 
> We'll investigate that.
> 
> Let me know if you have any further questions.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> Dave Lane
> NZOSS council member
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Tim Moore

On Wed, Mar 17, 2010 at 12:18 AM, Rob Oates  wrote:

> Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more
> restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over
> how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes
> could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial
> project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission
> to use them.
>
> I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be
> trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ...
> not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.
>
> The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.
>
> my 2 cents
>
> I'm not so keen on mixing my GPled code contributions with non-GPLed
content.

Tim
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Rob Oates

Hmm, why not change the license on some of the newer planes to a more
restrictive creative commons license? This would give you more control over
how these are used. For instance, you could apply the license so the planes
could only be use for non-commercial/free projects, and if a commercial
project wanted to use your planes then they would have to request permission
to use them.

I think that is a fair trade off. Besides commercial companies should be
trying to improve the underlying Flight Dynamic Model and terrain system ...
not trying to getting rich quick off of our pretty planes.

The GPL license should apply some probably just a handful of planes.

my 2 cents

-Rob

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:44 PM, Pete Morgan  wrote:

> Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
> pete
>
> Hello Peter,
>
> Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL
> does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a
> software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL
> with regard to making the source code available on request*.
>
> It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as
> they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they
> can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.
>
> There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki
> content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright*
> and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing
> commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright
> infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or
> represent) the copyright holder*.
>
> As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore
> both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of
> copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement)
> with the FlightProSim.com people.
>
> One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing
> Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php
> 
>
> We'll investigate that.
>
> Let me know if you have any further questions.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Dave Lane
> NZOSS council member
>
>
> --
> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Alan Teeder

  From: Frederic Bouvier 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 16, 2010 3:21 PM
  To: FlightGear developers discussions 
  Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

  Users of FlightProSim have been scammed and they should not endure our 
  anger. But I am not happy to do the FPS support for free, so we should 
  either tell them, always with courtesy, to ask the FPS support desk, or use 
  the real flightgear.

On the http://www.clickbank.com/product_requirements.html website it says
"You will provide appropriate technical support pages for all Products that You 
register for sale via the ClickBank Services in English and all of the other 
languages in which the Products are offered at Your own web site. Your 
technical support must be consistent with best industry practices and 
standards."

Is he capable of meeting that requirement, especially if his customers can 
expect no help from here?

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread James Turner


On 16 Mar 2010, at 15:01, Curtis Olson wrote:

> There are a lot of different angles here, but I think whatever we do, we 
> can't take out our frustrations on the end users that flightsimpro manages to 
> sucker into buying a copy of FlightGear without telling them what it actually 
> is.
> 
> The guy is building his business on a charade ... and that is a hard thing to 
> keep up long term.  He has to spend a large percentage of his time 
> maintaining his charade, covering his tracks, etc.  I can't even remember my 
> own forum password half the time ... and this guy has to remember a bunch of 
> user names and passwords.  He probably has sticky notes all over his monitor. 
>  Maybe he's really good at that sort of thing and will have some leeching 
> success, but it's a shaky business model that could come crashing down around 
> him at any time.

+1 to all of this - I don't imagine the guy will vanish, but he has to work 
fairly hard to stay relevant - and moreso the more active / well publicised FG 
is. Of course, communications and 'marketing' is less fun than hacking code, 
for most of us here - but being visible and communicative (whether it's the 
newsletter, forums, the wiki or external flight-simming sites) is the easiest 
way to make his business model less effective.

James


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Heiko Schulz

Hello,


> However, if the flightsimpro guy is trying to
> use trickery ... like logging onto the forum with multiple
> identities (there were two users on the forum from his same
> IP address in this most recent case) then this could just
> degenerate into chaos.
> 
...
>reality has a way of catching up with these guys
> eventually.
> 

One of the forum user I know already and he tried tomake FGFS bad, the other I 
can only guss. But when he shows the same sense of humor, I do know who

Nethertheless- if they have the same IP, then we should ban them but make an 
official statement on the forum.

Then we are not the only known OpenSource Program who has this Problem. Blender 
is the other famous one- maybe we can get together to fight against? 

Heiko

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Frederic Bouvier

- "Curtis Olson" a écrit : 


>If this guy points his users at our forum, that also might be a benefit to us. 
> If flightsimpro users start showing up and asking questions, we could again 
> be patient and welcoming, but explain the situation to them. That way at 
> least for the future, they can get newer versions for free if they wish, and 
> participate in an open community of users. 
Users of FlightProSim have been scammed and they should not endure our 
anger. But I am not happy to do the FPS support for free, so we should 
either tell them, always with courtesy, to ask the FPS support desk, or use 
the real flightgear. 

This FPS guy is either a thief if he really modified a GPL program without 
publishing modifications, or a liar because his claim of having an improved 
version is not substantiated. 

-Fred 

-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-16 Thread Curtis Olson

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 7:01 PM, syd adams  wrote:

> I have to agree that much can't be done . I hate to see it removed from the
> forum , flame war or not , since keeping as much information out there as
> possible might keep a few some being conned .
>

I was thinking the other day that if mentions of flightsimpro were followed
up immediately by patient and *positive* responses that explained the true
nature of the situation (rather than a string of angry replies) that might
be beneficial to FlightGear.  People googling for flightsimpro information
might stumble on our forum and have a chance to read about what's really
going on.

However, if the flightsimpro guy is trying to use trickery ... like logging
onto the forum with multiple identities (there were two users on the forum
from his same IP address in this most recent case) then this could just
degenerate into chaos.

If this guy points his users at our forum, that also might be a benefit to
us.  If flightsimpro users start showing up and asking questions, we could
again be patient and welcoming, but explain the situation to them.  That way
at least for the future, they can get newer versions for free if they wish,
and participate in an open community of users.

There are a lot of different angles here, but I think whatever we do, we
can't take out our frustrations on the end users that flightsimpro manages
to sucker into buying a copy of FlightGear without telling them what it
actually is.

The guy is building his business on a charade ... and that is a hard thing
to keep up long term.  He has to spend a large percentage of his time
maintaining his charade, covering his tracks, etc.  I can't even remember my
own forum password half the time ... and this guy has to remember a bunch of
user names and passwords.  He probably has sticky notes all over his
monitor.  Maybe he's really good at that sort of thing and will have some
leeching success, but it's a shaky business model that could come crashing
down around him at any time.  He's always going to be looking over his
shoulder ... hoping he doesn't inadvertently swindle the wrong person in the
wrong country ... hoping the major publications don't catch on to him ...
hoping if something does go wrong he can duck into the shadows and re-emerge
somewhere else ... reality has a way of catching up with these guys
eventually.

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread syd adams

I have to agree that much can't be done . I hate to see it removed from the
forum , flame war or not , since keeping as much information out there as
possible might keep a few some being conned .

Cheers
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Pete Morgan

Just sent an email to New Zealand open Source and got this reply,
pete

Hello Peter,

Thanks for bringing this to our attention. Please recognise that the GPL 
does not in any way preclude people from packaging up and selling a 
software application *so long as they comply with the terms of the GPL 
with regard to making the source code available on request*.

It may be that these guys are *not* in violation of the GPL so long as 
they can provide you with their source code if you request it. If they 
can't, then they should be given notice of a GPL violation.

There is another issue here, however: if they are packaging up wiki 
content, aircraft designs, et al. for which *they do not hold copyright* 
and which aren't licensed under a Creative Commons license allowing 
commercial distribution, then they *are* guilty of copyright 
infringement, and you can take them to task on that, *if you are (or 
represent) the copyright holder*.

As a representative of the NZOSS, I would fully encourage you to explore 
both issues (the distribution of source code, and the distribution of 
copyrighted materials constituting potential copyright infringement) 
with the FlightProSim.com people.

One of our other members has noted that they're similarly distributing 
Free!Ship: http://www.3dboatdesign.com/indexg.php 


We'll investigate that.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

Kind regards,

Dave Lane
NZOSS council member

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[Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread James Sleeman

This guy sure does waste a lot of time for FG developers to discuss this 
every few months :-(

One thing that has struck me that could be done, is to have a welcome 
message broadcast to the user on the MP chat when players connect, for 
example something like...

"Welcome to FlightGear Multiplayer - FlightGear Free Flight Simulator, 
Official Downloads and Community at http://www.flightgear.org/";

Basically, a message-of-the-day if you like.

It's only going to get multiplayer people, but I think that would 
include most people at least once, and having it over the MP network 
means it's not a simple "search and replace in the code" for him.

I guess he could catch and kill the message as it came in, but will he 
be likely to do so, probably not, too much like hard work.






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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread kyle keevill

That's un-believable, but he's done his research, the license allows you to 
sell it =/   He obviously did his research and found a loophole. It's a shame 
that someone would go the great lengths to actually do something as immoral as 
this.
On Mar 15, 2010, at 4:13 PM, Heiko Schulz wrote:

> Btw: Blender has more or less the same problem- and it seems from the design 
> of the webpage, that is the same company. 
> 
> Blender were able to fight against successfully last year. But this year they 
> are back.
> 
> http://www.blendernation.com/3dmagix-re-branding-and-selling-the-free-software-blender/
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Heiko Schulz

Btw: Blender has more or less the same problem- and it seems from the design of 
the webpage, that is the same company. 

Blender were able to fight against successfully last year. But this year they 
are back.

http://www.blendernation.com/3dmagix-re-branding-and-selling-the-free-software-blender/



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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread David Megginson

This kind of thing happens sometimes -- not much we can do unless we
want to spend tens of thousands of $$ going to court, so there's no
point getting stressed.  I did go to Google Sidewiki and leave a
comment on the page, so that anyone using the Google toolbar or a
sidewiki add-on in their browser will see this as the first (and so
far, only) comment:

  Just a repackaged free flight sim

  Although this site doesn't admit it, Flight Pro Sim appears to be
just a repackaging of the open source
  FlightGear flight simulator, available at http://www.flightgear.org/

Maybe other people would like to add similar comments.  I like
SideWiki because it prevents sites from censoring open commenting on
any web page (though I'd be happier if a single company didn't control
it).


All the best,


David

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 3:27 PM, kyle keevill  wrote:
> Has anyone tried putting their own watermarks on their models and liveries? I 
> usually put my watermark on the engine, then again, we could put a flightgear 
> watermark on the inside of a model (image mapping the inside of a model so he 
> can't see it)
> Also, has anyone checked to see if he's a part of this mailing list? (and for 
> forum wise, block his IP so he can't post anymore). I'm actually thinking 
> about posting a screen shot of his webpage where is shows that FPS is based 
> on FG.
>
> In other news, there's no wiki on FPS, but there is one on FG, should we post 
> a warning on the FG one or make an FPS page and leave a note that redirects 
> to the FREE version of fps?
>
> sorry if i start an argument, just trying to help.
> On Mar 15, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jon Stockill wrote:
>
>> Curtis Olson wrote:
>>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Frederic Bouvier >> > wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>    What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com
>>>     page ?
>>>
>>>
>>> We could only hope ... !!!
>>>
>>> Can we get in trouble ourselves for using his name?
>>
>> Possibly - he claims it's a trademark.
>>
>> One from the screenshots page that contains yet more non-gpl content. If
>> he's including that scenery then that could be a problem.
>>
>> Jon
>>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread kyle keevill

Has anyone tried putting their own watermarks on their models and liveries? I 
usually put my watermark on the engine, then again, we could put a flightgear 
watermark on the inside of a model (image mapping the inside of a model so he 
can't see it)
Also, has anyone checked to see if he's a part of this mailing list? (and for 
forum wise, block his IP so he can't post anymore). I'm actually thinking about 
posting a screen shot of his webpage where is shows that FPS is based on FG.

In other news, there's no wiki on FPS, but there is one on FG, should we post a 
warning on the FG one or make an FPS page and leave a note that redirects to 
the FREE version of fps?

sorry if i start an argument, just trying to help.
On Mar 15, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jon Stockill wrote:

> Curtis Olson wrote:
>> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Frederic Bouvier > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com
>> page ?
>> 
>> 
>> We could only hope ... !!!
>> 
>> Can we get in trouble ourselves for using his name?
> 
> Possibly - he claims it's a trademark.
> 
> One from the screenshots page that contains yet more non-gpl content. If 
> he's including that scenery then that could be a problem.
> 
> Jon
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Jon Stockill

Curtis Olson wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Frederic Bouvier  > wrote:
> 
> 
> What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com
>  page ?
> 
> 
> We could only hope ... !!!
> 
> Can we get in trouble ourselves for using his name?

Possibly - he claims it's a trademark.

One from the screenshots page that contains yet more non-gpl content. If 
he's including that scenery then that could be a problem.

Jon

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Heiko Schulz


> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com
> page ?
> We could only hope ... !!!
> 
> 
> Can we get in trouble ourselves for using his
> name?
> Curt. -- 

Yes!

And I don't like this idea. It won't help but starts a war, which we maybe 
can't win. 

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Arnt Karlsen

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:04:35 +0100 (CET), Frederic wrote in message 
<29285847.3999171268669075452.javamail.r...@spooler4-g27.priv.proxad.net>:

> 
> - "Heiko Schulz" a écrit :
> 
> > > Heiko Schulz wrote:
> > > > Hey folks,
> > > > 
> > > > you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
> > > new version! Isn't it surprising?
> > > > 
> > > > Did you know that many of the technologies used in
> > > FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
> > > > 
> > > > And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
> > > clouds and cool water?
> > > > 
> > > > And did you know that we all are paid? That
> > > FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
> > > time goes into it than a volunteer one?
> > > 
> > > This guy is getting annoying.
> > > 
> > > Erik
> > > 
> > Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)
> > 
> > Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
> > Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting
> > serious now
> 
> I think the whole thread should be removed by the moderator. 

..I disagree, that whole thread is probably relevant in litigation 
and law enforcement and should therefore remain in the open.

> I see no
> point making him advertisement and letting the flames grow up.

..just make sure it remains discoverable for the law sharks. ;o)

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Curtis Olson

On Mon, Mar 15, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Frederic Bouvier wrote:

>
> What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com page ?


We could only hope ... !!!

Can we get in trouble ourselves for using his name?

Curt.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Reptile


I have noticed that one of the screens on their website uses my alternative 
summer textures which were partially made using Google Earth images hence they 
are not GNU-GPL (see my website http://flightgear.xf.cz ). I do not know how 
many problems I could have with Google corporation doing this for FG community, 
but I am sure they will really dislike such commercial use of their property as 
FlightProSim does.
Is there a way how to find out the textures are included in this simulator? If 
they are, I am prepared to take my responsibility and send a letter to Google 
informing them know about this issue. It shouldn´t be any problem for them to 
ban the website and sue the thief.

What do you think?

Milan

__
> Od: "Heiko Schulz" 
> Komu: FlightGear developers discussions 
> 
> Datum: 15.03.2010 15:51
> Předmět: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!
>
>Hey folks,
>
>you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a new version! Isn't it 
>surprising?
>
>Did you know that many of the technologies used in FlightGear are the same 
>within FlightProSim?
>
>And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D clouds and cool water?
>
>And did you know that we all are paid? That FlightProSim is a paid Flight 
>Simulator so more work and time goes into it than a volunteer one?
>
>And where I found this news? In our official forum!
>He is so impressed after discovering our forums that he may base FPS' forums 
>off of this! 
>Read here: http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7340#p69546
>
>To be serious now- still everybody believes that this can be easily fighten?
>Still believe that FlightProSim is really based in New Zealand? 
>Their page only changed minor, but I can see interesting states in the 
>disclaimer:
>"Images supplied by:
>Tehkni Media
>Carlossm
>GPL Released Wiki's "
>
>I didn't know  That I belong to any of this! The page is full of false 
>statements- in germany this can be sued quite easy. 
>And you can be sure- he will attack FlightGear stronger than last year- he 
>already earned some money.
>
>Heiko
>
>
>
>
>still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html
>But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Frederic Bouvier


- "Martin Spott" a écrit :

> Frederic Bouvier wrote:
> 
> > I think the whole thread should be removed by the moderator. I see
> no
> > point making him advertisement and letting the flames grow up.
> 
> Oh yes, I'm supportive of this procedure, also of installing a
> 'flightprosim.flightgear.org' page - which could get re-directed to
> the respective Wiki page (and re-used for whichever future scam),

What will happen if this guy creates a flightgear.flightprosim.com page ?

-Fred

-- 
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http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/   FlightGear Scenery Designer


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Martin Spott

Frederic Bouvier wrote:

> I think the whole thread should be removed by the moderator. I see no
> point making him advertisement and letting the flames grow up.

Oh yes, I'm supportive of this procedure, also of installing a
'flightprosim.flightgear.org' page - which could get re-directed to the
respective Wiki page (and re-used for whichever future scam),

Martin.
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Arnt Karlsen

On Mon, 15 Mar 2010 17:50:34 +0100, Erik wrote in message 
<4b9e655a.9050...@ehofman.com>:

> Heiko Schulz wrote:
> > That won't stop the fact that he already makes money with our work. 
> > And yes, I seriously believe that he is able to bring our project
> > in danger.
> 
> Making money is one thing; it's allowed by the GPL.

..yes, but not common theft.  Nor software piracy.

> Problem here seems that, while our project tries to do everything to 
> keep it as open as possible, they (he) does just the opposite.


-- 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Gijs de Rooy

Hi,

> Fred wrote:
> I think the whole thread should be removed by the moderator. I see no point 
> making 
> him advertisement and letting the flames grow up.

Has been done. Reason: we do not tolerate spam at our forums. No matter if that 
is 
some weird non-related software or a paid version of FlightGear.

Cheers,
Gijs (forum moderator)

PS: What a first week as a moderator O_O

_
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Erik Hofman

Heiko Schulz wrote:
> That won't stop the fact that he already makes money with our work. 
> And yes, I seriously believe that he is able to bring our project in danger.

Making money is one thing; it's allowed by the GPL.
Problem here seems that, while our project tries to do everything to 
keep it as open as possible, they (he) does just the opposite.

Erfik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Erik Hofman

Heiko Schulz wrote:
>> Heiko Schulz wrote:
>>> Hey folks,
>>>
>>> you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
>> new version! Isn't it surprising?
>>> Did you know that many of the technologies used in
>> FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
>>> And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
>> clouds and cool water?
>>> And did you know that we all are paid? That
>> FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
>> time goes into it than a volunteer one?
>>
>> This guy is getting annoying.
>>
> Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)

Off course not :)

Erik

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Alan Teeder

Clickbank is an interesting site.
See 
http://www.clickbank.com/help/vendor-help/vendor-basics/selling-basics/what-products-are-allowed/

Perhaps they should be advised that he is selling GPL software which 
includes material with copyright by many contributors.

On the other hand they may encourage this kind of thing.


--
From: "Pete Morgan" 
Sent: Monday, March 15, 2010 4:11 PM
To: "FlightGear developers discussions" 

Subject: Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

> One idea which I've used before, would be to create the
> flightprosim.flightgear.org subdomain. then link sites (eg wiki, 3rd
> party) to the subdomain. This gets it well up in the rankings and is
> easy to implement.
>
> When end up on that domain is a nice notice explaining what flightprosim.
>
> Also the payments portal maybe worth a shot
> https://ssl.clickbank.net/order/orderform.html?time=1268669378&=666c6967687473696d&item=1&detail=Flight%2BPro%2BSim&vvar=detail%3DFlight+Pro+Sim%26dlgp%3D1
>
> just some thoughts
> pete
>
> Heiko Schulz wrote:
>>> Heiko Schulz wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hey folks,
>>>>
>>>> you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
>>>>
>>> new version! Isn't it surprising?
>>>
>>>> Did you know that many of the technologies used in
>>>>
>>> FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
>>>
>>>> And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
>>>>
>>> clouds and cool water?
>>>
>>>> And did you know that we all are paid? That
>>>>
>>> FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
>>> time goes into it than a volunteer one?
>>>
>>> This guy is getting annoying.
>>>
>>> Erik
>>>
>>>
>> Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)
>>
>> Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
>> Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting serious 
>> now
>>
>> __
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>> gegen Massenmails.
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>>
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>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Heiko Schulz


> 
> I did a bit of poking around FPS.com web site and found a
> download
> link on the disclaimer page (link:
> http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/).
> The link to the download
> file sourcess.zip contains a snapshot of the wiki from
> October last
> year along with some interesting stuff.
> http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/sourcess.zip
> 
> Annoying is one word, amoral would be another.
> 
> I agree with Fred Bouvier, the thread should be removed, or
> tidied
> 
> Perhaps an open letter on the FlightGear web site?
> 
> Regards
> 
> 
> George
> 
That won't stop the fact that he already makes money with our work. 
And yes, I seriously believe that he is able to bring our project in danger.

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread George Patterson

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 2:40 AM, Heiko Schulz  wrote:
>
>> Heiko Schulz wrote:
>> > Hey folks,
>> >
>> > you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
>> new version! Isn't it surprising?
>> >
>> > Did you know that many of the technologies used in
>> FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
>> >
>> > And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
>> clouds and cool water?
>> >
>> > And did you know that we all are paid? That
>> FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
>> time goes into it than a volunteer one?
>>
>> This guy is getting annoying.
>>
>> Erik
>>
> Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)
>
> Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
> Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting serious now
>

I did a bit of poking around FPS.com web site and found a download
link on the disclaimer page (link:
http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/). The link to the download
file sourcess.zip contains a snapshot of the wiki from October last
year along with some interesting stuff.
http://www.flightprosim.com/disclaimer/sourcess.zip

Annoying is one word, amoral would be another.

I agree with Fred Bouvier, the thread should be removed, or tidied

Perhaps an open letter on the FlightGear web site?

Regards


George

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Pete Morgan

One idea which I've used before, would be to create the 
flightprosim.flightgear.org subdomain. then link sites (eg wiki, 3rd 
party) to the subdomain. This gets it well up in the rankings and is 
easy to implement.

When end up on that domain is a nice notice explaining what flightprosim.

Also the payments portal maybe worth a shot 
https://ssl.clickbank.net/order/orderform.html?time=1268669378&=666c6967687473696d&item=1&detail=Flight%2BPro%2BSim&vvar=detail%3DFlight+Pro+Sim%26dlgp%3D1

just some thoughts
pete

Heiko Schulz wrote:
>> Heiko Schulz wrote:
>> 
>>> Hey folks,
>>>
>>> you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
>>>   
>> new version! Isn't it surprising?
>> 
>>> Did you know that many of the technologies used in
>>>   
>> FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
>> 
>>> And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
>>>   
>> clouds and cool water?
>> 
>>> And did you know that we all are paid? That
>>>   
>> FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
>> time goes into it than a volunteer one?
>>
>> This guy is getting annoying.
>>
>> Erik
>>
>> 
> Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)
>
> Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
> Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting serious now
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Sie sind Spam leid? Yahoo! Mail verfügt über einen herausragenden Schutz 
> gegen Massenmails. 
> http://mail.yahoo.com 
>
> --
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>   


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Frederic Bouvier


- "Heiko Schulz" a écrit :

> > Heiko Schulz wrote:
> > > Hey folks,
> > > 
> > > you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
> > new version! Isn't it surprising?
> > > 
> > > Did you know that many of the technologies used in
> > FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
> > > 
> > > And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
> > clouds and cool water?
> > > 
> > > And did you know that we all are paid? That
> > FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
> > time goes into it than a volunteer one?
> > 
> > This guy is getting annoying.
> > 
> > Erik
> > 
> Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)
> 
> Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
> Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting serious
> now

I think the whole thread should be removed by the moderator. I see no point 
making him advertisement and letting the flames grow up.

-Fred

-- 
Frédéric Bouvier
http://my.fotolia.com/frfoto/  Photo gallery - album photo
http://fgsd.sourceforge.net/   FlightGear Scenery Designer


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Heiko Schulz


> Heiko Schulz wrote:
> > Hey folks,
> > 
> > you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a
> new version! Isn't it surprising?
> > 
> > Did you know that many of the technologies used in
> FlightGear are the same within FlightProSim?
> > 
> > And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D
> clouds and cool water?
> > 
> > And did you know that we all are paid? That
> FlightProSim is a paid Flight Simulator so more work and
> time goes into it than a volunteer one?
> 
> This guy is getting annoying.
> 
> Erik
> 
Hopefully you didn't mean me! ;-)

Indeed, we should react a bit harder now I think
Making advertisement in our own forum shows that it is getting serious now

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Erik Hofman

Heiko Schulz wrote:
> Hey folks,
> 
> you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a new version! Isn't it 
> surprising?
> 
> Did you know that many of the technologies used in FlightGear are the same 
> within FlightProSim?
> 
> And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D clouds and cool water?
> 
> And did you know that we all are paid? That FlightProSim is a paid Flight 
> Simulator so more work and time goes into it than a volunteer one?

This guy is getting annoying.

Erik

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[Flightgear-devel] News from FlightProSim!

2010-03-15 Thread Heiko Schulz

Hey folks,

you won't belive that- but Flight Pro Sim releases a new version! Isn't it 
surprising?

Did you know that many of the technologies used in FlightGear are the same 
within FlightProSim?

And that this has many improved graphics as well as 3D clouds and cool water?

And did you know that we all are paid? That FlightProSim is a paid Flight 
Simulator so more work and time goes into it than a volunteer one?

And where I found this news? In our official forum!
He is so impressed after discovering our forums that he may base FPS' forums 
off of this! 

Read here: http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7340#p69546

To be serious now- still everybody believes that this can be easily fighten?
Still believe that FlightProSim is really based in New Zealand? 

Their page only changed minor, but I can see interesting states in the 
disclaimer:
"Images supplied by:
Tehkni Media
Carlossm
GPL Released Wiki's "

I didn't know  That I belong to any of this! 
The page is full of false statements- in germany this can be sued quite easy. 

And you can be sure- he will attack FlightGear stronger than last year- he 
already earned some money.

Heiko




still in work: http://www.hoerbird.net/galerie.html
But already done: http://www.hoerbird.net/reisen.html

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