Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
leee wrote: It is a sad fact that many people have problems coping with some events in history, and perhaps the only way that they can personally deal with them is by putting them away somewhere so that they don't have to confront them. On a personal level, this is fine, because it only effects the person doing it, but trying to force everyone else to fit in with their neurosis, [...] If you'd like to add a little bit more sense, you should probably explain about which neurosis you are talking, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
I would have responded in this thread but decided not to since it probably would only add fuel to it. Let stick to that it's tasteless and realize that FlightGear has no support for weapons of mass murder. So this mission will end up being merely a sightseeing mission. Erik -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: If you agree with me, please help me change his plan. I do sympathise with your feelings - this plan is pretty much tasteless, ridiculous. I think the only measure against such plans is education. Best regards, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009 08:59:46 +0200, Erik wrote in message 4ab32fe2.4040...@ehofman.com: I would have responded in this thread but decided not to since it probably would only add fuel to it. Let stick to that it's tasteless and realize that FlightGear has no support for weapons of mass murder. So this mission will end up being merely a sightseeing mission. Erik ..guns and bombs etc probably qualify as weapons of mass murder since they historically has been used for that particular that purpose, and some of our planes do support these items. ..what FG _could_ have, is a point score engine supporting the full 4 Geneva Conventions, if you wanna play war, you should learn to do it right and legally, rather than use FG to learn how to become a war criminal, and without even knowing it, because FG is right now, no different from all the blood 'n gore games that teaches the finer points of genocide, despite all the lofty ideals of the tender FG developers. ;o) ..I dunno how to code it, but I can help out with the Conventions and their application in military situations, it's been part of my field of expertise since I served. I also tried to build a translation service reusing the texts of the over 130 different language versions. -- ..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o) ...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry... Scenarios always come in sets of three: best case, worst case, and just in case. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
The most depressing thing about this thread is that it highlights the fact that many people seem to think that the best way to deal with unpleasant events in history is to mythologise and make them sacred and untouchable, and then to try to force other people to comply with their personal views. First of all, Tat has presented this event as a recreation of the A-bomb raids, which is factually incorrect. Tat even says in his post on the forum I haven't read all posts in this thread... but that ignorance hasn't stopped him from going off on an irrelevant tangent over something that isn't even happening. Harsh words? Yes indeed, but I have no patience or sympathy for anyone who wants to force their will on other people, especially when they've got their facts wrong, or simply choose to misrepresent them. It's bad enough that politicians get away with it. In any case though, even if the raid was to be an enactment of one of the A-bomb raids, is forbidding people to do it the best way to deal with the issue? Should enactments of unpalatable events in history made into thought-crimes? There's certainly no real crime being committed here, is there? The fact is, events like the A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually occurred, along with numerous other raids where the majority of casualties were civilian, such as the firebombing of Tokyo (which is believed to have actually killed more people than either of the A-bomb raids), Dresden and Hamburg, together with the raids on Coventry Sheffield, not forgetting to mention the Blitz on London or the attacks on the Ruhr Dams. So no, mythologising these unpalatable events is not the best way to come to terms with them. To understand how such terrible events came to occur requires that the events be inspected down to their finest details and it's only when you completely understand what happened that you stand a chance of ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Saying that people should treat these events as something sacred and that re-enacting them or studying them is somehow offensive just ensures ignorance, which is no way to tackle the future. This issue really has nothing to do with FlightGear. FlightGear is all about flight, and to a large degree about the development of flight, both in the past and for the future, and the fact is that much of the development in flight has its origins in the military. Just as we can't truly understand the past that has brought us to the present without correctly understanding _all_ of the past, FlightGear cannot properly deal with the subject of flight if it tries to ignore the military factor. If there's really a problem, it's actually more to do with people who can't differentiate between understanding something and advocating it, and this can already be shown to have fostered ignorance. For example, as pointed out in the forum thread, the Swastika has been made illegal in several countries and this has lead to the widely held belief that the Swastika symbol relates purely to the Nazi regime. It does, in fact, date from the Neolithic period and was originally thought of as a symbol of good luck. Making the Swastika illegal has certainly not achieved the aim of stopping its use by the right-wing movements that were targeted by the law but instead has just resulted in the widespread ignorance of its real place in history, along with making it impossible to make historically accurate representations of anything that carried the symbol (unless it is for scholarly use). What has been advanced by achieving this? Yes, I am very annoyed at all this. It is precisely this type of neurotic denial of reality that has lead to many of the world's problems today. Pandering to this neurosis is not going to make things any better and it will only be by _really_ understanding things and coming to terms with them that we will stand any chance of preventing them from occurring again. LeeE -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Hi lee, funny enough I mostly agree. But I'm sorry, it's really easy to ignore you because like some of the fanbois of the event, you're resorting to demeaning language to speak of those who don't agree with you, showing exactly the intolerance you're decrying. At least, you're not resorting to racial epithets, which you would know happened if you had read the thread, as well as it was the original intent of the event's organiser to re-enact the atom bombings (he thinks there are no bombings possible in FGFS, showing how hard he's tried to research the topic, thus why it was changed to a dogfighting event...) Get your facts straight, if you're going to comment, as you're basing your opinion on non straight facts :) Cheers, Nic On Fri, Sep 18, 2009 at 11:28 AM, leee l...@spatial.plus.com wrote: The most depressing thing about this thread is that it highlights the fact that many people seem to think that the best way to deal with unpleasant events in history is to mythologise and make them sacred and untouchable, and then to try to force other people to comply with their personal views. First of all, Tat has presented this event as a recreation of the A-bomb raids, which is factually incorrect. Tat even says in his post on the forum I haven't read all posts in this thread... but that ignorance hasn't stopped him from going off on an irrelevant tangent over something that isn't even happening. Harsh words? Yes indeed, but I have no patience or sympathy for anyone who wants to force their will on other people, especially when they've got their facts wrong, or simply choose to misrepresent them. It's bad enough that politicians get away with it. In any case though, even if the raid was to be an enactment of one of the A-bomb raids, is forbidding people to do it the best way to deal with the issue? Should enactments of unpalatable events in history made into thought-crimes? There's certainly no real crime being committed here, is there? The fact is, events like the A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually occurred, along with numerous other raids where the majority of casualties were civilian, such as the firebombing of Tokyo (which is believed to have actually killed more people than either of the A-bomb raids), Dresden and Hamburg, together with the raids on Coventry Sheffield, not forgetting to mention the Blitz on London or the attacks on the Ruhr Dams. So no, mythologising these unpalatable events is not the best way to come to terms with them. To understand how such terrible events came to occur requires that the events be inspected down to their finest details and it's only when you completely understand what happened that you stand a chance of ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Saying that people should treat these events as something sacred and that re-enacting them or studying them is somehow offensive just ensures ignorance, which is no way to tackle the future. This issue really has nothing to do with FlightGear. FlightGear is all about flight, and to a large degree about the development of flight, both in the past and for the future, and the fact is that much of the development in flight has its origins in the military. Just as we can't truly understand the past that has brought us to the present without correctly understanding _all_ of the past, FlightGear cannot properly deal with the subject of flight if it tries to ignore the military factor. If there's really a problem, it's actually more to do with people who can't differentiate between understanding something and advocating it, and this can already be shown to have fostered ignorance. For example, as pointed out in the forum thread, the Swastika has been made illegal in several countries and this has lead to the widely held belief that the Swastika symbol relates purely to the Nazi regime. It does, in fact, date from the Neolithic period and was originally thought of as a symbol of good luck. Making the Swastika illegal has certainly not achieved the aim of stopping its use by the right-wing movements that were targeted by the law but instead has just resulted in the widespread ignorance of its real place in history, along with making it impossible to make historically accurate representations of anything that carried the symbol (unless it is for scholarly use). What has been advanced by achieving this? Yes, I am very annoyed at all this. It is precisely this type of neurotic denial of reality that has lead to many of the world's problems today. Pandering to this neurosis is not going to make things any better and it will only be by _really_ understanding things and coming to terms with them that we will stand any chance of preventing them from occurring again. LeeE -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
First: we are an OpenSource project- open and free to all! We can't preventing militaries using FGFS to develope military stuff to kill people. So I don't see a chance to prevent those kids making this event. But we are allowed to say our opinion about and trying them to convince with facts and words. And indeed to make an pseudo-historical (it isn't historical right! )event which clearly annoys a lot of people people is just annoying itself! the fact that many people seem to think that the best way to deal with unpleasant events in history is to mythologise and make them sacred and untouchable, and then to try to force other people to comply with their personal views. ... The people who re-enactment mythologise this unpleasant events! ... To understand how such terrible events came to occur requires that the events be inspected down to their finest details and it's only when you completely understand what happened that you stand a chance of ensuring that it doesn't happen again. But that is exactly what they don't do. I doubt that they ever understood how this all happened. Even for studied historian it is difficult to understand today. And those kids in the forum don't re-enact the real history in its details and for studying so I can't agree here. Saying that people should treat these events as something sacred and that re-enacting them or studying them is somehow offensive just ensures ignorance, which is no way to tackle the future. As I said- they don't re-enact the real history happened and they don't do that for learning and studying history. They just do that because having fun to shoot. Not yet nothing to say against- but as you can read this event annoys a lot of people here- so you should better think again why are so much people annoyed by it! Can you tell me again why? This issue really has nothing to do with FlightGear. FlightGear is all about flight, and to a large degree about the development of flight, both in the past and for the future, and the fact is that much of the development in flight has its origins in the military. Just as we can't truly understand the past that has brought us to the present without correctly understanding _all_ of the past, FlightGear cannot properly deal with the subject of flight if it tries to ignore the military factor. It has nothing to do with military factor. As this would be we have to shut down the whole project as a lot of civillian developed aircrafts can and was used in a military way, and a lot of people were killed by them. But we use them to simulate flying- not simulating how to kill people! That's the point! ... For example, as pointed out in the forum thread, the Swastika has been made illegal in several countries and this has lead to the widely held belief that the Swastika symbol relates purely to the Nazi regime. It does, in fact, date from the Neolithic period and was originally thought of as a symbol of good luck. It seems that only you and some of those kids believe that we fight the swastika- read exactly and you will see that we mean the nazi-swastika! That's a difference! We all really already ( if not before! ;-))know the history of this symbol - no need to teach us again. Making the Swastika illegal has certainly not achieved the aim of stopping its use by the right-wing movements that were targeted by the law but instead has just resulted in the widespread ignorance of its real place in history, along with making it impossible to make historically accurate representations of anything that carried the symbol (unless it is for scholarly use). What has been advanced by achieving this? Sorry, but noone from us who made this law! This was made in resepct for the victims of this sign ( again: nazi-swastika!)- a while before we were actually born. It's not our fault and unfortunately noone from us here in this certain countries are strong enough to fight against. Yes, I am very annoyed at all this. It is precisely this type of neurotic denial of reality that has lead to many of the world's problems today. Pandering to this neurosis is not going to make things any better and it will only be by _really_ understanding things and coming to terms with them that we will stand any chance of preventing them from occurring again. No, to the many world problems has lead the non-respect. The non-respect over certain history facts! If we had learned of it, we woulden't have similar things today! Do you know that even today more than 60 years after the war and holocaust my country germany still have to pay compensations? That there are still war crinimals of the WWII and the holocaust around and they still beeing chased? That there still people have been imprisoned and survived the concentration camps are alive? That there are still people dying or getting ill in Hiroshima
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Friday 18 Sep 2009, Nicolas Quijano wrote: Hi lee, funny enough I mostly agree. But I'm sorry, it's really easy to ignore you because like some of the fanbois of the event, you're resorting to demeaning language to speak of those who don't agree with you, showing exactly the intolerance you're decrying. At no point in my posting did I demean anyone. There was certainly criticism though. Do you understand the difference between demeaning someone and criticising them? If I were to call you an idiot for not understanding the distinction it would be demeaning, but as it is, I'm just pointing out that you don't seem to know the difference. That's not demeaning; it's just stating the truth of the situation. The only intolerance I have, as I clearly stated, is for those who don't have the courage to face up to reality and instead try to force other people to comply with the fiction they wish to perpetuate. At least, you're not resorting to racial epithets, which you would know happened if you had read the thread[...] Why even raise this issue in the context of my answer? The implication of saying At least, you're not resorting to racial epithets is that you expected me to do just that. If you didn't expect me to resort to racial epithets then the statement would have been redundant and you would have felt no need to make it. Do you know me? I certainly don't know you, so what reason did you have for thinking that I might resort to racial epithets? Your reasoning seems to based, in fact, upon nothing. Is it not rather stupid or idiotic to do that? It would, of course, be demeaning if I called you an idiot for doing that, but once again, I'm just pointing out that your reasoning seems to be rather flawed. , as well as it was the original intent of the event's organiser to re-enact the atom bombings (he thinks there are no bombings possible in FGFS, showing how hard he's tried to research the topic, thus why it was changed to a dogfighting event...) The original plan was for a multiple aircraft raid on two airfields in a single mission. The only things in common between the original raid plans and the A-bomb raids were the two locations. Get your facts straight, if you're going to comment, as you're basing your opinion on non straight facts :) Cheers, Nic The saddest thing about your posting is that rather than contributing to the debate you've chosen to try to personally belittle and attack me, whilst spuriously implying that I'm a racist on the basis of absolutely nothing. In the end though, that's really your problem, not mine. LeeE -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Lee, I do agree with all you wrote and started something similar but then decided I didn' t find this mailinglist the place to discuss it. Still, I do agree. Erik -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Friday 18 Sep 2009, Heiko Schulz wrote: First: we are an OpenSource project- open and free to all! We can't preventing militaries using FGFS to develope military stuff to kill people. So I don't see a chance to prevent those kids making this event. But we are allowed to say our opinion about and trying them to convince with facts and words. And indeed to make an pseudo-historical (it isn't historical right! )event which clearly annoys a lot of people people is just annoying itself! It is a sad fact that many people have problems coping with some events in history, and perhaps the only way that they can personally deal with them is by putting them away somewhere so that they don't have to confront them. On a personal level, this is fine, because it only effects the person doing it, but trying to force everyone else to fit in with their neurosis, for that is what an inability to cope with reality really is, is plainly wrong. It does nothing to help the person come to terms with reality and is more likely to re-enforce the neurosis, rather than cure it. the fact that many people seem to think that the best way to deal with unpleasant events in history is to mythologise and make them sacred and untouchable, and then to try to force other people to comply with their personal views. ... The people who re-enactment mythologise this unpleasant events! I find it really difficult that you seriously believe this to be true. Re-enactment glorifies nothing because it's not real. Re-enactment is an excellent method of understanding and learning, and doesn't just cover tactics and equipment but also gives an insight into the mindsets of the people and the sort of things that they would have been thinking at the time. For example, you may be able to read about how it felt to be a medieval foot soldier facing a massed cavalry charge but it won't convey nearly as much as actually participating in a re-enactment where you'll be standing on a battlefield confronting real horses. Both historians and archeologists find re-enactments incredibly valuable because of the insight it gives and which puts the tactics and equipment in context. While this planned raid could validly be regarded as frivolous, and not serious research, the people who participate seriously in it will learn valid things from it, from the degree of concentration required in maintaining formation over the period of the exercise, to the inevitable paranoia felt by anyone who is hunted. History, whether it be recent or distant, is about people, and in military affairs, not just the the tactics or equipment but the people who devised and used them. To understand how such terrible events came to occur requires that the events be inspected down to their finest details and it's only when you completely understand what happened that you stand a chance of ensuring that it doesn't happen again. But that is exactly what they don't do. I doubt that they ever understood how this all happened. Even for studied historian it is difficult to understand today. And those kids in the forum don't re-enact the real history in its details and for studying so I can't agree here. It is precisely through re-enactment that missing or incorrect details are found. When everything is done as it was supposed to have been done, but then turns out not to work when re-enacted, the historians know that there is something else that they need to find out. In many cases, it has been through re-enactment that solutions to problems that were known about have been found. Sure, it's likely that we will never know _everything_ about the past, but the past isn't magic and intrinsically beyond understanding. Saying that people should treat these events as something sacred and that re-enacting them or studying them is somehow offensive just ensures ignorance, which is no way to tackle the future. As I said- they don't re-enact the real history happened and they don't do that for learning and studying history. They just do that because having fun to shoot. Not yet nothing to say against- but as you can read this event annoys a lot of people here- so you should better think again why are so much people annoyed by it! Can you tell me again why? And as I've said above, things relevant to taking part in such a mission, whether it be absolutely historically accurate or not, will still be learned by the people who participate and will not be invalidated because everything wasn't perfectly true. Just because learning may incorporate competition and entertainment it doesn't make the learning frivolous,or somehow wrong. This issue really has nothing to do with FlightGear. FlightGear is all about flight, and to a large degree about the development of flight, both in the past and for the future, and the fact is that much of the development in flight has its origins
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Friday 18 Sep 2009, Erik Hofman wrote: Lee, I do agree with all you wrote and started something similar but then decided I didn' t find this mailinglist the place to discuss it. Still, I do agree. Erik I agree that this isn't the right place for this discussion but I was so annoyed that I couldn't let it pass. Hopefully, it'll die soon. I've answered a couple of responses, one reasonable and one not, imo, but I'll shut up about it now as I've really said all that I think I needed to. LeeE -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Ieee. Do not nudge my expressions and thought. First, I didn't express this is the recreation of the a-bomb raids. That's way far from what I've said. Second, I didn't say I ignored many of the posts. I skipped some meaningless posts on the forum, and I wrote that because I might have skipped a post that some of the potential participants might try to change the plan. If that expression get your temper lost, I feel very sorry, but only by that expression, you cannot judge what I actually have done. All you can do, in a logical fashion, is to assume what I possibly did. Third, I haven't even force my will on other people. As a matter of fact, none of them changed the plan. I rather simply expressed my thought on their event. Why can't I do that? I'm also not forbidding them to use Hiroshima and Nagasaki. I expressed my opinion that I object to use these, hoping they understand how other people may get hurt. Fourth, I don't even think getting away from the fact that happened as a real event is the best idea. When did I say that? As a matter of fact, I've learned about Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and other war events for many years, including the effects and affects. If the MP event is like to simulate the past horrible event and try to learn some meaningful out of it, I will never stop it. It rather, I think, is worth participating. Unfortunately, the event I mentioned is very far from that purpose. Aside from your criticism, I do agree with your expression of Swastika. it is used in Japan (typically opposite direction) as a symbol of good sign and typically used as a symbol of shrine. Though there're no problem in using Swastika in Japan, we don't usually use these in European countries. As a matter of fact, many japanese cartoons exported to Europe tends to delete the Swastika signs. But this is not for ignoring the past event or a specific sign, but for showing the respect to some other's thought or feeling. Anyway, my whole point of posting my opinion on the event was not to force them ignore the past event, but rather ask them to consider someone's negative feeling. Ignorance and solicitude is very different. If you take my point as an ignorance, then I feel very sorry on that. By the way, I do agree with the thought this must be out of the list, but I couldn't leave someone misunderstand my whole point. If someone still want to discuss this, please send me an email. Now I shut my mouse on this topic on the list. On Sep 19, 2009, at 12:28 AM, leee wrote: The most depressing thing about this thread is that it highlights the fact that many people seem to think that the best way to deal with unpleasant events in history is to mythologise and make them sacred and untouchable, and then to try to force other people to comply with their personal views. First of all, Tat has presented this event as a recreation of the A-bomb raids, which is factually incorrect. Tat even says in his post on the forum I haven't read all posts in this thread... but that ignorance hasn't stopped him from going off on an irrelevant tangent over something that isn't even happening. Harsh words? Yes indeed, but I have no patience or sympathy for anyone who wants to force their will on other people, especially when they've got their facts wrong, or simply choose to misrepresent them. It's bad enough that politicians get away with it. In any case though, even if the raid was to be an enactment of one of the A-bomb raids, is forbidding people to do it the best way to deal with the issue? Should enactments of unpalatable events in history made into thought-crimes? There's certainly no real crime being committed here, is there? The fact is, events like the A-bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki actually occurred, along with numerous other raids where the majority of casualties were civilian, such as the firebombing of Tokyo (which is believed to have actually killed more people than either of the A-bomb raids), Dresden and Hamburg, together with the raids on Coventry Sheffield, not forgetting to mention the Blitz on London or the attacks on the Ruhr Dams. So no, mythologising these unpalatable events is not the best way to come to terms with them. To understand how such terrible events came to occur requires that the events be inspected down to their finest details and it's only when you completely understand what happened that you stand a chance of ensuring that it doesn't happen again. Saying that people should treat these events as something sacred and that re-enacting them or studying them is somehow offensive just ensures ignorance, which is no way to tackle the future. This issue really has nothing to do with FlightGear. FlightGear is all about flight, and to a large degree about the development of flight, both in the past and for the future, and the fact is that much of the development in flight has its origins in the
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: Hi there, I found a problematic forum topic on planning an MP event, by which I really got hurt at least. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=5761 The plan of the event is to simulate the bombing mission against both Hiroshima and Nagasaki (the horrible two atomic bombs). As a developer of FG / Zero, and as a person who lives in Japan. I'm very angry and sad to see such event is being planned. Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. g. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
GTA IV sucks. Even if you have an IBM Roadrunner, it'll lag. It's very badly designed (as with all Rockstar games) ;) Besides, GTA IV is completely fictional, but the MP event is *loosely* based on a real, tragic, event. I was going to join it, just to fly around. The plane I was going to use can't open the bomb doors, nor drop them. The best thing the event organizer can is hear the complaints and try to explain himself. I had a problem with a comment I made. It was just a misinterpretation, but I explained the issue and solved it. :) I can't seem to actually feel bad for WWII games, they are just games that are based real events, but most of them are loosely based on them. :) On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: Hi there, I found a problematic forum topic on planning an MP event, by which I really got hurt at least. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=5761 The plan of the event is to simulate the bombing mission against both Hiroshima and Nagasaki (the horrible two atomic bombs). As a developer of FG / Zero, and as a person who lives in Japan. I'm very angry and sad to see such event is being planned. Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. g. -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: Hi there, I found a problematic forum topic on planning an MP event, by which I really got hurt at least. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=5761 The plan of the event is to simulate the bombing mission against both Hiroshima and Nagasaki (the horrible two atomic bombs). As a developer of FG / Zero, and as a person who lives in Japan. I'm very angry and sad to see such event is being planned. I don't want the topic leader to completely cancel the event, but at least he must change the plan. If you agree with me, please help me change his plan. Thanks in advance, Tat You have my full support on this, Tat. To those who say , its just a game, get over it 1) It's a sim 2) We are talking about the greatest mass murder of civilians in a single act in history here. No wonder Tat is upset. He has every right to be. I take it there will be no objections when we organise a little fly in with 757s Boston - Manhattan and the Pentagon? Or if we want to go with the historical stuff how about a load of Zeroes from the Akagi into Pearl Harbour? Oh wait, those were American victims, thats different, isn't it? And as someone else pointed out, the no fo victims at Pearl Harbour and TwinTowers was a tiny tiny fraction of those who perished at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. America shouts long and hard about rogue states getting access to nuclear weapons. A bit rich coming from the only state ever to have dropped them for real. Some of the posts on the forum have been borderline racist. I don't know (and have never needed to find out) who is supposed to be moderating the forums, but they need to start now. My vote is for that entire thread to be pulled and if necessary for the MP servers to be made unavailable for the duration of this so-called event. -- Best Regards Willie Fleming -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 3:29 PM, Gene Buckle wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: Hi there, I found a problematic forum topic on planning an MP event, by which I really got hurt at least. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=5761 The plan of the event is to simulate the bombing mission against both Hiroshima and Nagasaki (the horrible two atomic bombs). As a developer of FG / Zero, and as a person who lives in Japan. I'm very angry and sad to see such event is being planned. Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. Hey Gene, I know you've been around long enough that if you spent 30 seconds pondering your answer, you could probably come up with a little bit better one? Flip it around ... can you imagine some sort of bombing mission reenacting some event from not too many years ago, that would probably anger and upset most americans, especially if it was organized as a for fun event, and maybe even worse if it drew the participation primarly from some particular group of people. There are a lot of tasteless things we could point to that exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to endorse them, participate in them, or use them as an excuse to justify further tasteless, or offensive, or potentially hurtful things. I'm not saying we should run around trying to fix everything we think is wrong, I don't have the energy to fight every battle at the same time. I can suggest to people that some things might be a bad idea, but ultimately they make the choices for themselves. I don't think as a group we should be actively endorsing this particular even (assuming Tat is accurately presenting what is being planned.) We can speak out against it and say it's a bad idea. At the end of the day if a few people still insist on behaving badly, then I guess that's the way it has to be. I've done a few stupid things in my life ... I'm not saying any of this from a position of authority and pureness on the matter. So a simulated mission to fly anywhere to drop a simulated atomic bomb. Has anyone checked the age of the people who are excited about doing this? It's probably going to average out at about 14.5 and that's including Gene. Curt. -- Curtis Olson: http://baron.flightgear.org/~curt/ -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Thu, 2009-09-17 at 13:29 -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: On Fri, 18 Sep 2009, Tatsuhiro Nishioka wrote: Hi there, I found a problematic forum topic on planning an MP event, by which I really got hurt at least. http://www.flightgear.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10t=5761 The plan of the event is to simulate the bombing mission against both Hiroshima and Nagasaki (the horrible two atomic bombs). As a developer of FG / Zero, and as a person who lives in Japan. I'm very angry and sad to see such event is being planned. Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. g. I am, and have been, against the militarization of flightgear in general. I'm depressed by the seeming growing number of people who want to push flightgear into a game and wargame direction, and this event is just an egregious and extreme example of that. Gene, my friend, your answer was totally uncalled for and callous. Ron -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
On Thu, 17 Sep 2009, Victhor Foster wrote: GTA IV sucks. Even if you have an IBM Roadrunner, it'll lag. It's very badly designed (as with all Rockstar games) ;) Besides, GTA IV is completely fictional, but the MP event is *loosely* based on a real, tragic, event. I was going to join it, just to fly around. The plane I was going to use can't open the bomb doors, nor drop them. The best thing the event organizer can is hear the complaints and try to explain himself. I had a problem with a comment I made. It was just a misinterpretation, but I explained the issue and solved it. :) I can't seem to actually feel bad for WWII games, they are just games that are based real events, but most of them are loosely based on them. :) My favorite online game is WWII Online. Tanks, planes, ships, people, it's got it all. :) I think I'm going to drop EVE and resub to wwiiol. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
You have my full support on this, Tat. To those who say , its just a game, get over it 1) It's a sim It's a simulation game. Is it used for serious research? You bet! However, it's also used as entertainment. 2) We are talking about the greatest mass murder of civilians in a single act in history here. No wonder Tat is upset. He has every right to be. Actually, no we're not. We're talking about a bunch of people getting together online to _vaguely_ simulate a really nasty historical event. An event that is completely incapable of being simulated in FlightGear. I take it there will be no objections when we organise a little fly in with 757s Boston - Manhattan and the Pentagon? Or if we want to go with the historical stuff how about a load of Zeroes from the Akagi into Pearl Harbour? Have at! I'd even host the server if I had the pipe for it! Wanna know why? Because it's NOT REAL. IT'S FANTASY. IN A COMPUTER. I can understand why you're upset. I've had relatives that survived the PTO, including that merry little walk in Bataan. What blows my mind is the fact that seemingly reasonably people are getting their panties in a wad over something that is for the most part, based in the minds of the participants. Oh wait, those were American victims, thats different, isn't it? And as someone else pointed out, the no fo victims at Pearl Harbour and TwinTowers was a tiny tiny fraction of those who perished at Hiroshima and Nagasaki. America shouts long and hard about rogue states getting access to nuclear weapons. A bit rich coming from the only state ever to have dropped them for real. Yep, we dropped the first (and hopefully last) nuclear weapons in anger. Over 60 years ago. Before you get all saddled up on your high horse there, might I remind you that had the Axis powers gotten a working nuclear weapon first, you'd likely be the duty punch for some shustaffel(sp) officer right now. I have zero problem with someone simulating a run into the WTC or Pearl Harbor. It's not my thing, but I know that there is a very solid difference between meatspace and cyberspace. One doesn't bleed into the other unless you've got mentally ill people involved. My vote is for that entire thread to be pulled and if necessary for the MP servers to be made unavailable for the duration of this so-called event. If the commentary violates the terms of use of the forum, I agree. Pulling the servers down is just silly though. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. Hey Gene, I know you've been around long enough that if you spent 30 seconds pondering your answer, you could probably come up with a little bit better one? Flip it around ... can you imagine some sort of bombing mission reenacting some event from not too many years ago, that would probably anger and upset most americans, especially if it was organized as a for fun event, and maybe even worse if it drew the participation primarly from some particular group of people. There are a lot of tasteless things we could point to that exist, but that doesn't necessarily mean we need to endorse them, participate in them, or use them as an excuse to justify further tasteless, or offensive, or potentially hurtful things. Well like I replied to Willie, I wouldn't much care for Twin Towers II in FlightGear, but I'm not about to run in circles and scream shout about it. To me, it's a distributed computing effort with the goal of turning a mole hill into a mountain. So a simulated mission to fly anywhere to drop a simulated atomic bomb. Has anyone checked the age of the people who are excited about doing this? It's probably going to average out at about 14.5 and that's including Gene. Heh. The only problem is, FlightGear isn't capable of even remotely simulating that. There's a lot more important things in this world to get spun up about besides a bunch of tweener jerks that have a hardon for pretending to bomb cities. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Problematic forum discussion on an MP event
Tasteless? Oh probably. But then again, so is Grand Theft Auto IV. It's a game. Get over it. g. I am, and have been, against the militarization of flightgear in general. I'm depressed by the seeming growing number of people who want to push flightgear into a game and wargame direction, and this event is just an egregious and extreme example of that. Gene, my friend, your answer was totally uncalled for and callous. I'll agree on callous, but not on uncalled for. Look, I can understand you guys getting upset over this. However, the whole reaction is WAY over blown. It's like getting into a fist fight over a game of Minesweeper. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! -- Come build with us! The BlackBerryreg; Developer Conference in SF, CA is the only developer event you need to attend this year. Jumpstart your developing skills, take BlackBerry mobile applications to market and stay ahead of the curve. Join us from November 9#45;12, 2009. Register now#33; http://p.sf.net/sfu/devconf ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
