Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
On Thursday, February 23, 2012 01:05:07 Martin Spott wrote: I do, I've been the first real user of the xplane driver in GDAL - except from Even himself :-) BTW, I didn't say I don't want any 850 centerlines as a base for this. I just wanted to make clear that there's a trap hiding because you can't rely on v8.50 centerlines being topologically reasonable - simply because there's no constraint enforcing proper topology. Ask OSM folks about the big surprise they experienced when they first tried to build routing on top of their road network. It's the same with v8.50 centerlines. If you'd like to develop automated creation and maintenance of ground networks in PostGIS on the basis of X-Plane v8.50, then please negotiate with Durk and go ahead - you know how the database works. Cheers, Martin. Hi Martin, Christian, The main problem I see is the lack of parking positions defined in apt.dat For example, EHAM has 30, EDDF none, LFPO 50. And the parking positions are pretty much essential to the groundnet files. In my script I am generating them automatically, because I have a known airport layout. Anyway, I think it's more likely for the large airports to get attention from scenery designers than for smaller ones. Using taxiway markings was just an idea, now of course I might go ahead and try to come up with a working proof of concept for just one airport, but it's not guaranteed to happen. Cheers, Adrian -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
Adrian Musceac wrote: On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 00:57:49 Martin Spott wrote: I'll leave it to Durk to commit these files when you consider them being ready for use. Anyhow I think we'll need some aid for tracking the ground networks, at least in the long run, as there'll be a lot to change when people add more custom airport layouts or when we're going to switch to Robin's latest v8.50 collection. What do you have in mind for tracking them? As for custom layouts, I think one way or another they would already probably contain groundnet/parking information, and they would likely end up in the scenery database after a while, so any old groundnetworks would get overwritten. Unfortunately the ground layouts are not (yet) managed from our common scenery database. To be honest, I've probably never ever looked seriously at the structure of these ground network files (at least not in the past seven years), thus there _might_ be an easy way to represent these in a PostgreSQL/PostGIS database - I just don't know of any effort to make this happen. Any volunteer(s) ? Proper representation of ground network nodes as PostGIS (actually OGC) geometry data type preferred. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
Martin Spott wrote: Any volunteer(s) ? Proper representation of ground network nodes as PostGIS (actually OGC) geometry data type preferred. Apparently you don't want any 850 centerlines as a base for this, which would be easy as gdal imports 850 data directly into Postgis, as you surely know :) It might be a solution worth considering IMHO. Surely a lot easier than drawing groundnetworks from scratch for bigger airports. Chris -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
Christian Schmitt wrote: Martin Spott wrote: Any volunteer(s) ? Proper representation of ground network nodes as PostGIS (actually OGC) geometry data type preferred. Apparently you don't want any 850 centerlines as a base for this, which would be easy as gdal imports 850 data directly into Postgis, as you surely know :) I do, I've been the first real user of the xplane driver in GDAL - except from Even himself :-) BTW, I didn't say I don't want any 850 centerlines as a base for this. I just wanted to make clear that there's a trap hiding because you can't rely on v8.50 centerlines being topologically reasonable - simply because there's no constraint enforcing proper topology. Ask OSM folks about the big surprise they experienced when they first tried to build routing on top of their road network. It's the same with v8.50 centerlines. If you'd like to develop automated creation and maintenance of ground networks in PostGIS on the basis of X-Plane v8.50, then please negotiate with Durk and go ahead - you know how the database works. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
Adrian Musceac wrote: I have also tested that visual display of the taxi path is correct, and that AI will taxi to active runway via taxiways. There are about 5900 airports which support this operation, plus or minus bugs in my script. I'll leave it to Durk to commit these files when you consider them being ready for use. Anyhow I think we'll need some aid for tracking the ground networks, at least in the long run, as there'll be a lot to change when people add more custom airport layouts or when we're going to switch to Robin's latest v8.50 collection. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Keep Your Developer Skills Current with LearnDevNow! The most comprehensive online learning library for Microsoft developers is just $99.99! Visual Studio, SharePoint, SQL - plus HTML5, CSS3, MVC3, Metro Style Apps, more. Free future releases when you subscribe now! http://p.sf.net/sfu/learndevnow-d2d ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
On Wednesday, February 22, 2012 00:57:49 Martin Spott wrote: I'll leave it to Durk to commit these files when you consider them being ready for use. Anyhow I think we'll need some aid for tracking the ground networks, at least in the long run, as there'll be a lot to change when people add more custom airport layouts or when we're going to switch to Robin's latest v8.50 collection. Cheers, Martin. Hi Martin, What do you have in mind for tracking them? As for custom layouts, I think one way or another they would already probably contain groundnet/parking information, and they would likely end up in the scenery database after a while, so any old groundnetworks would get overwritten. As for the switch to v8.50 airports, I already am looking into parsing them too. The default airports have a different format, but roughly the same characteristics, so it should be doable. Cheers, Adrian -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks and parking
Hi, As a follow-up on yesterday's question, I now can generate in a relatively reliable fashion groundnet files for a certain type of airport, with 9 medium- large parking positions and an AI network which passes the Taxidraw tests (I have randomly tested the files). I have also tested that visual display of the taxi path is correct, and that AI will taxi to active runway via taxiways. There are about 5900 airports which support this operation, plus or minus bugs in my script. Right now I'm trying to generate them all to see if there are any issues to iron out. Like I said previously, the concept can also be extended to the 850 format. Cheers, Adrian -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks
Adrian Musceac wrote: Currently there are a number of airports with missing goundnetwork files, with the obvious consequence that AI aircraft are placed on top of eachother at startup, they do not use taxiways, and the ATC manager cannot assign a taxi route to the player (also this taxi route can't be visually displayed). Now, my question: is there a way to create a list of airports which are missing the groundnetworks, without downloading the whole scenery? If there is none yet, perhaps we can create it using a script (which could be run periodically on the global scenery)? I'm not too motivated to write such a script, simply because there's no benefit in it for myself, but I'd be willing to run it on The MapServer, if it helps. Anyhow, from my perspective the solution to the problem should be a more generic one. First, the easiest way to get a list of airfield without ground network would be to fetch our list of all airfield and exclude just those few ! where a ground network is available. Isn't that much cheaper than scanning the entire World Scenery ? ;-) Second, the generic solution I'd have in mind would be a completely different one: Ask the AI system to delay the appearance of the next aircraft as long as the startup position is occupied, sort AI aircraft for each startup position by departure time. I think that's a much more elegant approach and saves you from the impractical and error-prone overhead of maintaining data about other data not being available. Cheers, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery related: groundnetworks
On Thursday, February 09, 2012 13:40:49 Martin Spott wrote: Adrian Musceac wrote: I'm not too motivated to write such a script, simply because there's no benefit in it for myself, but I'd be willing to run it on The MapServer, if it helps. Anyhow, from my perspective the solution to the problem should be a more generic one. First, the easiest way to get a list of airfield without ground network would be to fetch our list of all airfield and exclude just those few ! where a ground network is available. Isn't that much cheaper than scanning the entire World Scenery ? ;-) Second, the generic solution I'd have in mind would be a completely different one: Ask the AI system to delay the appearance of the next aircraft as long as the startup position is occupied, sort AI aircraft for each startup position by departure time. I think that's a much more elegant approach and saves you from the impractical and error-prone overhead of maintaining data about other data not being available. Cheers, Martin. Hi Martin, I think scanning the airport list obtained with terrasync should do? I'm not sure if terrasync downloads all airports, but I think that's the case. That way I get the list of airports with missing networks. Anyway, what I had in mind was more akin to this: quite a lot of the airports in apt.dat are generic ones, that is, they have almost the same, simple, layout, excluding minor differences. Thus, I've started to work on a way to automatically generate groundnetworks for these airports. For an even more advanced solution, airports which use the new 850 apt.dat format have line data for taxiway/routes marking. Of course, using this data would definetly be a lot harder than generating networks for simple standard aiports, but I think it could be done in the long term, either as part of the Terragear toolchain, or separately? Anyway, I'm currently not very concerned with this, and I'm pursuing the simple task for default airports (most of them have the same format even in 850 apt.dat). Cheers, Adrian -- Virtualization Cloud Management Using Capacity Planning Cloud computing makes use of virtualization - but cloud computing also focuses on allowing computing to be delivered as a service. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51521223/ ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
