Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
Major A wrote: >> that there might arise some chance to let FG participate in a VATSIM >> network as - I didn't verify this information ! - significant changes >> to their network protocol are supposed to happen which could obsolete >> the political reasons to keep FG outside their network, > > That's very good news indeed! Well, at least these are promising prospects - time will show if the wishes come true. Different sources agree on the assumtion that the only reason not to publish the VATSIM network protocol is because the authentication system is so terribly bad and they fear that publishing the protocol could be understood as an invitation to everyone for hacking it. If they now aim at overhauling at least the authentication this could lead to interesting opportunities, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
On Wednesday 10 May 2006 14:27, Major A wrote: > You don't need to purchase it anyway -- you don't need the scenery or > joystick input, and these are the only two things missing in the demo > version! Oh right ... it's only the joystick that gets disabled after a few minutes! :D I'm starting to like your approach. Very simple, not much work and still cross platform. Paul --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
Paul, > How about this idea ... > Since the X-Plane XSquawkBox module is cross platform why don't we just write > a proxy app for it that pretends to be X-Plane and interfaces directly to FG > in the background? That sounds really good, although it's probably a lot more work than just interfacing XP and FG -- remember XSquawBox has a GUI which must be emulated! > 1. you don't need to purchase X-Plane and run it on another PC You don't need to purchase it anyway -- you don't need the scenery or joystick input, and these are the only two things missing in the demo version! I actually like the idea of running it on another PC because having to type text messages to ATC on the same keyboard as the one controlling the aircraft is a real mess. (Forget to press "Return" before you type in XP and you can end up at FL380 with the gear extending, A/P off, and reversers deploying -- no fun at all.) I'm sure though that Sandy would help us by giving away which functions of XP he uses in XSquawBox, i.e. which ones would have to be emulated. Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
> > The only big question is whether the internal FDM of X-Plane or > > MSFS can be overridden with external data just like that. > > Why would you need to override the FDM of X-Plane ot MSFS? > Last time I played with WideFS all it did was put the slave MSFS machines > into > slew mode and pump them with a stream of co-ordinates, pitch, roll and > heading data. The VATSIM multiplayer code should smooth be able to smooth out > the jumps. That's what I thought. I was wondering whether the internal FDM could be stopped from interfering with the coordinates sent from FG (which could mess up the view, if nothing else). > In fact if we had such a module running in MSFS we could pass that data to > our > own MP servers and see VATSIM aircraft flying around in FG. One could leave a > FG MP aircraft at the major airports and see VATSIM guys arriving and > departing. Good idea -- fly in VATSIM airspace without them actually noticing... :) they only see a plane parked at a remote field while we fly around them unnoticed with a stealth AN-225... :) > Very interesting idea - I just wish we could have a native implimentation > running on Linux since not everyone owns MSFS or Windows or a spare PC with > the horsepower to run MSFS. It might not even be necessary to run another PC. Thinking about it, it has just occurred to me why X-Plane would make such a good VATSIM proxy: (1) it's free (you only pay for scenery and the joystick interface, neither of which is needed for this application); (2) it supports three platforms: Windows, Mac, and even Linux/x86; (3) it's leightweight, I guess it could even be run on the same (Linux) machine as the one running FG if graphics was set to the lowest quality or turned off altogether. Earlier today I tried making a test plugin for X-Plane but got stuck trying to build it -- whatever I did, X-Plane would always bail out with SIGSEGV not long after (successfully) loading the plugin. It's not the plugin because a "HelloWorld" plugin written by the author of the plugin SDK does the same thing if I build it. But I also suspect there might be something wrong with my set-up (I run X-Plane inside an x86 chroot, which doesn't exactly make things easier to debug, and I've done updates recently, and the Debian/sid repository is currently in a rather poor state). I might try on a native 32-bit machine at some point. As to the network code, would it be necessary to actually modify FG, or can all the necessary features be accessed through the telnet interface (meaning that the X-Plane plugin would have to act as a telnet client)? Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
How about this idea ... Since the X-Plane XSquawkBox module is cross platform why don't we just write a proxy app for it that pretends to be X-Plane and interfaces directly to FG in the background? That way : 1. you don't need to purchase X-Plane and run it on another PC 2. all FG users can access the IVAO or VATSIM networks via an approved client (without anyone needing to disclose the network code) 3. it'll run on Windows, Mac and *nix Paul --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
> > I've just had an idea, maybe some of you find it interesting. I'm > > currently in a big dilemma -- I fly on VATSIM more or less regularly, > > As you might expect we had the opportunity at our booth at LinuxTag to > talk to several people about this dilemma. One of our guests expressed > that there might arise some chance to let FG participate in a VATSIM > network as - I didn't verify this information ! - significant changes > to their network protocol are supposed to happen which could obsolete > the political reasons to keep FG outside their network, That's very good news indeed! I seem to notice that delivery of messages on this list sluggish -- is anyone else experiencing this or am I the only one SourceForge is messing with? Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
On Saturday 06 May 2006 03:39, Major A wrote: > John, > > > Interesting... > > > > I'm about to delve into XPlane and have zero understanding regards how > > the third party plugins or datarefs work. I don't know what happened to my reply with all the SF mailing list troubles but ... If we write a proxy app that actually emulates the X-Plane plugin interface/API we can : 1. Not need X-Plane or a second computer 2. Use both the IVAO and VATSIM networks with the XSquawkBox clients 3. Be cross platform (Mac, Linux and Win32) since the XSquawkBox clients run on all three 4. Still be using a network approved client a.k.a. VATSIM/IVAO <=> XSquawkbox <=> proxy app <=> FlightGear The proxy app to FlightGear side would be a piece of cake to code - only the X-Plane interface emulation would be a trick. Paul --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
On Sunday 07 May 2006 14:16, Martin Spott wrote: > Major A wrote: > > I've just had an idea, maybe some of you find it > > interesting. I'm currently in a big dilemma -- I fly on > > VATSIM more or less regularly, > > As you might expect we had the opportunity at our booth at > LinuxTag to talk to several people about this dilemma. One of > our guests expressed that there might arise some chance to let > FG participate in a VATSIM network as - I didn't verify this > information ! - significant changes to their network protocol > are supposed to happen which could obsolete the political > reasons to keep FG outside their network, > > Martin. That's interesting. LeeE --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
John, > >FG->XP: > > > > -- position > > -- attitude > > -- time derivatives of position and attitude > > -- NAV frequencies > > -- transponder settings > > -- PTT (we might be able to use XPLMCommandButtonPress() and > > XPLMCommandButtonRelease() ) > > > Certain of the first four, will have to poke around in the code for the > transponder. PTT ?? push-to-talk? I don't think there is such a > function in FG. I don't think we actually have a transponder, but that's also the function that could easily stay with X-Plane for the time being since it's not very often you play around with it during flight. PTT is probably something FlightGear doesn't have, so maybe this is a good time to add it to the property tree, so that whoever needs it can wire joystick buttons and instrument functions to it. It's probably a good idea to add more than one PTT -- how many are there in a real aircraft? (I'm thinking of the old days -- the crew of a 707 was something like 5 people, did they all have PTTs?) > FG has a real-time weather fetch capability from metar stations. Are > you aware of that? Sure, and I think that's a great solution for the weather problem. > So I'll code up a network protocol to send the above selected data from > FlightGear to a XPlane plugin if you would take a crack at doing the > plugin. I can give it a try once I've fixed my Linux machine at home so it will run X-Plane at all... I just need to know how to handle the network in a portable manner -- any ideas? I don't think X-Plane has a network layer that can be accessed from the plugins, but I'll check again just in case. Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
Major A wrote: John, Interesting... I'm about to delve into XPlane and have zero understanding regards how the third party plugins or datarefs work. I'm afraid I can't say much more than that at this point -- the only source I have myself is http://www.xsquawkbox.net/xpsdk/phpwiki/index.php But it does look a bit more orderly and sensible than with FSUIPC or its new free competitor (forgotten the name). I've just checked, and all the relevant parameters appear to be there. There's even a "override_planepath": "Set item 0 to '1' to turn off x-plane's flight model." -- very handy. Just for the record, here's what information I think will need to travel between FG and X-Plane: FG->XP: -- position -- attitude -- time derivatives of position and attitude -- NAV frequencies -- transponder settings -- PTT (we might be able to use XPLMCommandButtonPress() and XPLMCommandButtonRelease() ) Certain of the first four, will have to poke around in the code for the transponder. PTT ?? push-to-talk? I don't think there is such a function in FG. XP->FG: -- weather (we can generate a METAR to the plane from all the weather parameters? I can't see a direct METAR parameter) FG has a real-time weather fetch capability from metar stations. Are you aware of that? Audio will be handled by X-Plane. OTH I can do FG in my sleep. Perhaps there is any opportunity for some common sharing and help. One other thought -- it might be better to use X-Plane on Linux, maybe plugins can even be built using gcc? according to Austin that should be possible. In fact, I'm banking on it for some of the work planned with XPlane. So I'll code up a network protocol to send the above selected data from FlightGear to a XPlane plugin if you would take a crack at doing the plugin. Regards John W.
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
Major A wrote: > I've just had an idea, maybe some of you find it interesting. I'm > currently in a big dilemma -- I fly on VATSIM more or less regularly, As you might expect we had the opportunity at our booth at LinuxTag to talk to several people about this dilemma. One of our guests expressed that there might arise some chance to let FG participate in a VATSIM network as - I didn't verify this information ! - significant changes to their network protocol are supposed to happen which could obsolete the political reasons to keep FG outside their network, Martin. -- Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are ! -- --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
John, > Interesting... > > I'm about to delve into XPlane and have zero understanding regards how > the third party plugins or datarefs work. I'm afraid I can't say much more than that at this point -- the only source I have myself is http://www.xsquawkbox.net/xpsdk/phpwiki/index.php But it does look a bit more orderly and sensible than with FSUIPC or its new free competitor (forgotten the name). I've just checked, and all the relevant parameters appear to be there. There's even a "override_planepath": "Set item 0 to '1' to turn off x-plane's flight model." -- very handy. Just for the record, here's what information I think will need to travel between FG and X-Plane: FG->XP: -- position -- attitude -- time derivatives of position and attitude -- NAV frequencies -- transponder settings -- PTT (we might be able to use XPLMCommandButtonPress() and XPLMCommandButtonRelease() ) XP->FG: -- weather (we can generate a METAR to the plane from all the weather parameters? I can't see a direct METAR parameter) Audio will be handled by X-Plane. > OTH I can do FG in my sleep. Perhaps there is any opportunity for some > common sharing and help. One other thought -- it might be better to use X-Plane on Linux, maybe plugins can even be built using gcc? Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
On Friday 05 May 2006 21:43, Major A wrote: > Hi all, > > I've just had an idea, maybe some of you find it interesting. I'm > currently in a big dilemma -- I fly on VATSIM more or less regularly, > and I'm fed up with clicking radios etc. on the screen, so I'm > planning to build my own flight deck. Now FG is the best simulator as > far as customization and hardware connection go, and I'd certainly > like to run it once I have the flightdeck, but there is no VATSIM > support in FG (and there won't be, apparently, from what I've read.) > > Now here's the idea -- use X-Plane or MSFS for VATSIM, but fly FG! It > would need two computers, but I think it would work like this: in > X-Plane/MSFS, use the plugin system or FSUIPC/WIDEFS, respectively, to > IMPORT the current position and velocity data from the other machine > (running FG) on a regular basis, along with the NAV frequencies, > transponder settings, and the PTT state. That would give you a view of > all other flyers on the X-Plane/MSFS computer, plus it would relay > your position to them as well. Voice comms would of course be on the > non-FG machine. Sounds like it'll work just fine and it shouldn't be that hard to accomplish either. You'd need probably just one proxy app (MSFS module) that uses FSDConnect or FSUIPC to do the job. > The only big question is whether the internal FDM of X-Plane or > MSFS can be overridden with external data just like that. Why would you need to override the FDM of X-Plane ot MSFS? Last time I played with WideFS all it did was put the slave MSFS machines into slew mode and pump them with a stream of co-ordinates, pitch, roll and heading data. The VATSIM multiplayer code should smooth be able to smooth out the jumps. Also you could see the other aircraft in FG if you did a little bit of coding and passed the multiplayer aircraft positions from MSFS or X-Plane into FG via the MP network protocol we use. That could be done in the same FSUIPC of FDSConnection module on the MSFS machine. In fact if we had such a module running in MSFS we could pass that data to our own MP servers and see VATSIM aircraft flying around in FG. One could leave a FG MP aircraft at the major airports and see VATSIM guys arriving and departing. Very interesting idea - I just wish we could have a native implimentation running on Linux since not everyone owns MSFS or Windows or a spare PC with the horsepower to run MSFS. Paul --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
John Wojnaroski wrote: Interesting... I'm about to delve into XPlane and have zero understanding regards how the third party plugins or datarefs work. OTH I can do FG in my sleep. Perhaps there is any opportunity for some common sharing and help. Contact me off list I got far enough one time to verify that 3rd party plugins for x-plane can be built with cygwin on windows. Then priorities shifted. Curt. -- Curtis Olsonhttp://www.flightgear.org/~curt HumanFIRST Program http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/ FlightGear Project http://www.flightgear.org Unique text:2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
Re: [Flightgear-devel] possible solution to online flying (VATSIM)?!
Interesting... I'm about to delve into XPlane and have zero understanding regards how the third party plugins or datarefs work. OTH I can do FG in my sleep. Perhaps there is any opportunity for some common sharing and help. Contact me off list JW Major A wrote: Hi all, I've just had an idea, maybe some of you find it interesting. I'm currently in a big dilemma -- I fly on VATSIM more or less regularly, and I'm fed up with clicking radios etc. on the screen, so I'm planning to build my own flight deck. Now FG is the best simulator as far as customization and hardware connection go, and I'd certainly like to run it once I have the flightdeck, but there is no VATSIM support in FG (and there won't be, apparently, from what I've read.) Now here's the idea -- use X-Plane or MSFS for VATSIM, but fly FG! It would need two computers, but I think it would work like this: in X-Plane/MSFS, use the plugin system or FSUIPC/WIDEFS, respectively, to IMPORT the current position and velocity data from the other machine (running FG) on a regular basis, along with the NAV frequencies, transponder settings, and the PTT state. That would give you a view of all other flyers on the X-Plane/MSFS computer, plus it would relay your position to them as well. Voice comms would of course be on the non-FG machine. Nobody will notice because, as far as VATSIM is concerned, you're flying an approved client, and the only drawback is that FG won't display the other traffic (but you can see that on the other computer). I would be more than happy to run two computers simultaneously if this really was the solution to combining FG and VATSIM. Would anyone be interested in coding a proxy that connects FG and X-Plane/MSFS over the network? I'm willing to help, of course, even with coding if it doesn't involve me delving too deeply into the internals of FG. I tend towards interfacing with X-Plane, mainly because its internal structures appear to be much more openly available (the plugin interface seems to be rather clean compared to FSUIPC, and the SDK is free). The only big question is whether the internal FDM of X-Plane or MSFS can be overridden with external data just like that. Let me know if this is all nonsense, Andras --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel --- Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 ___ Flightgear-devel mailing list Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel