Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Warren Young]

On Aug 10, 2018, at 4:05 PM, Ron W  wrote:
> 
> I recall some discussion about adding fsuser support to Fossil

Yes, it was checked in years ago.  See src/fusefs.c.

Getting FUSE working on Windows is reportedly difficult, however:

https://superuser.com/q/179436/14927

> so this could be done. 

Fossil-via-FUSE sounds pretty risky to me.  What happens if the host 
application says “File > Save” but there’s a merge conflict?  Does the app give 
an error dialog like “File I/O error”?  Will the user understand what that 
means and why it’s happening?  Does the user then manually do a “fossil up” and 
then save their copy over the top, effectively reverting the other user’s work?

At some point, you can’t insulate the users from having to know what version 
control is all about.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Ron W]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 11:47 PM 
wrote:

> Date: Tue, 7 Aug 2018 13:26:04 -0500
> From: Artur Shepilko 
> Subject: Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?
>
> > project they are working on. Then they use TortoiseSVN to (mostly) commit
> > changes to their documents, sometimes to fetch older versions. Many of
> the
> > users are now making almost daily commits, not just just when making
> > official releases of their documents.
>
> Thank you for sharing this.
> So the add/diff/branch/merge/pull SCM functionality is mostly
> under-utilized or even remains unused.
>

The users do use add when they create a new document. But don't use
branch/merge or diff features (SVN doesn't have pull).


> Basically, the commit is used as an alternative Save.
>

Something like that. The pay-were DMS that was previously used had a GUI
similar to TortoiseSVN, so the usage is very similar.

>
> For such a use-case it'd be more user-friendly if there would be some
> kind of hook into the Save/Save As action (and perhaps Open) to allow
> more transparent VCS interactions.
>

TortoiseSVN, as a Windows Explorer extension, goes halfway in that
Open/Save dialogs summoned by applications are able to access SVN
functions. Since the DMS worked this way as well, the users only had to
adapt to slightly different details.

Taking the further step would be nice. I don't know if/how this could be
done.

>
> BTW, back in the days of OpenVMS, file versioning was supported by OS
> itself, not sure if it has seen a huge demand, other than a need to do
> 'purge' to clean up the directories. But in my experience it was
> mostly an "Undo" feature, still the versioning was fairly transparent
> to the ordinary user. VCS should be able to handle this much better if
> it could be as much transparent to the user.
>

I recall some discussion about adding fsuser support to Fossil so this
could be done. I don't remember if anyone actually implemented it. For MS
Windows, it might be possible to borrow code from Samba to do this.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

On 07/08/2018 20:12, Stephan Beal wrote:
That time frame is familiar to me, so i had to check... a couple 
timeline entries mention his use of libfossil, and late 2014 was when 
chronic RSI knocked me out of my hobby projects (which included 
libfossil).

Too bad no one read, willing and able took over its development.

http://fossil.wanderinghorse.net/repos/libfossil/index.cgi/wiki/home
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Stephan Beal]

On Tue, Aug 7, 2018 at 4:15 PM Donald Griggs  wrote:

> Re:  http://www.tortoisefossil.org/index.cgi/index  "What you'll find
> here is a work in progress  "
>
> Unfortunately, it appears the project is at least on hiatus, if not
> abandoned.  The last code commit in the timeline was in late 2014.
>

That time frame is familiar to me, so i had to check... a couple timeline
entries mention his use of libfossil, and late 2014 was when chronic RSI
knocked me out of my hobby projects (which included libfossil).

-- 
- stephan beal
http://wanderinghorse.net/home/stephan/
"Freedom is sloppy. But since tyranny's the only guaranteed byproduct of
those who insist on a perfect world, freedom will have to do." -- Bigby Wolf
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

On 07/08/2018 16:14, Donald Griggs wrote:
Re: http://www.tortoisefossil.org/index.cgi/index     "What you'll 
find here is a work in progress  "


Unfortunately, it appears the project is at least on hiatus, if not 
abandoned.  The last code commit in the timeline was in late 2014.

It's a known pattern.

https://fuel-scm.org/fossil/index
2015/08/23 Fuel version 1.0.1 has been released

http://code.google.com/p/jurassic-fossil/
Latest commit 5b8862e  on Jul 21, 2011

http://repository.mobile-developers.de/cgi-bin/ikoch/sharpfossil
"The requested URL /cgi-bin/ikoch/sharpfossil was not found on this server."

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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Donald Griggs]

Re:  http://www.tortoisefossil.org/index.cgi/index  "What you'll find
here is a work in progress  "

Unfortunately, it appears the project is at least on hiatus, if not
abandoned.  The last code commit in the timeline was in late 2014.


>
>
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

Does it work?

"What you'll find here is a work in progress to have a Tortoise-style 
tool for Fossil repositories. Currently there is no release just yet, 
there are no commands implemented as of right now, but file overlays are 
working great."

http://www.tortoisefossil.org/index.cgi/index

On 07/08/2018 15:54, sky5w...@gmail.com wrote:

Hmmm, that sounds like TortoiseFossil?
I would deploy that if available. :)

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Gilles > wrote:


On 07/08/2018 03:21, Ron W wrote:

I never tried Sharp Fossil, but Fuel was a very clunky GUI. I
think non-programmers would be unwilling to put up with it.

As a simpler alternative, the "GUI" could just be implemented as
an extension to Windows Explorer, where users would just
right-click a folder to perform the main tasks provided by Fossil
(commit, gdiff, etc.)

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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[sky5walk]

Hmmm, that sounds like TortoiseFossil?
I would deploy that if available. :)

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 9:42 PM, Gilles  wrote:

> On 07/08/2018 03:21, Ron W wrote:
>
> I never tried Sharp Fossil, but Fuel was a very clunky GUI. I think
> non-programmers would be unwilling to put up with it.
>
> As a simpler alternative, the "GUI" could just be implemented as an
> extension to Windows Explorer, where users would just right-click a folder
> to perform the main tasks provided by Fossil (commit, gdiff, etc.)
>
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

On 07/08/2018 03:21, Ron W wrote:
I never tried Sharp Fossil, but Fuel was a very clunky GUI. I think 
non-programmers would be unwilling to put up with it.
As a simpler alternative, the "GUI" could just be implemented as an 
extension to Windows Explorer, where users would just right-click a 
folder to perform the main tasks provided by Fossil (commit, gdiff, etc.)
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Ron W]

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 12:57 PM 
wrote:

> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 11:18:09 -0500
> From: Artur Shepilko 
> Subject: Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?
> Message-ID:
>
> How would you want to use such a GUI?
> I mean practically what is a non-programmer user workflow that
> involves a VCS interaction via GUI?
>
...

> So my feeling is that no amount of explanation or "instructions" would
> convert such users to make use of a VCS in any form, GUI or not. VCS
> would be perceived as an additional and annoying hoop to jump through.
>
> So I wonder, how do you see your use-cases and GUI VCS workflow?
>

In the case of my employer, transitioning away from a hugely expensive (as
in a large annual license fee) to SVN. Most of the non-programmers like it
much more than the old system. Partly because because a set of documents
could be identified by project code and SVN revision number, instead of a
list of document numbers and revision numbers. with the help of a Power
Shell script from IT, each user has, on their PC, a workspace for each
project they are working on. Then they use TortoiseSVN to (mostly) commit
changes to their documents, sometimes to fetch older versions. Many of the
users are now making almost daily commits, not just just when making
official releases of their documents.

Unfortunately, fossil - and other DVCSs - use less friendly version IDs
than the revision numbers SVN uses. But, I suspect that, after using the
old system, the non-programmers would have welcomed Fossil, even with its
unfriendly version IDs - except for the   lack of a GUI front end to add,
commit and update the user's workspace.

I never tried Sharp Fossil, but Fuel was a very clunky GUI. I think
non-programmers would be unwilling to put up with it. And I seriously doubt
it's a project corporate IT departments would be willing to take on. (The
Power Shell script I mentioned is very simple. It presents the user with a
folder-and-file style interface to select a project, then creates a folder
in the user's projects folder and does a SVN checkout into that folder.

I suspect most corporate IT directors would choose SVN+TortoiseSVN for a
document management system for non-programmers, as an alternative to the
kind document management system my employer used to use. If they did choose
a DVCS, then I think it would be Mercurial+TortoiseHg or git+Tortoisegit,
before they'd consider Fossil.

(As I've mentioned before, my fellow programmers and I, use Fossil for our
day-to-day VCS needs and only use SVN for official releases. We used to use
SVN for day-to-day use, but then the "process gurus" decided to link SVN to
an issue tracking system that makes every commit a 2 hour (or more) task.
We use Fossil "under the radar" and the process gurus seem to think that
our reduced use of SVN is a good thing, so haven't asked why we are using
it less.)
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Ron W]

On Mon, Aug 6, 2018 at 8:07 AM 
wrote:

>
> Date: Mon, 6 Aug 2018 09:18:56 +0800
> From: Steve Landers 
> Subject: Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?
>
> Put differently, what can’t you do with “fossil ui” that you can do with a
> native client?
>

You can't do:

fossil add
fossil ci
fossil changes
fossil extras

and a few others.

With some IDEs, you can define an interface to the above commands, which
will run the command in a terminal (or command) window using command
templates you define.

For example:
fossil add ${selected_resource_path}
will tell Eclipse to run the "fossil add" command with the workspace
relative path of the currently selected file.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Warren Young]

On Aug 5, 2018, at 2:14 PM, Gilles  wrote:
> 
> 1. SQLite is a DLL + EXE package

A great many programs have need for an embedded DBMS.  Very few programs have 
need for an embedded DVCS.

Note also that these are empirical observations, rather than opinions.

> 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.

Looking for a project? :)
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Artur Shepilko]

How would you want to use such a GUI?
I mean practically what is a non-programmer user workflow that
involves a VCS interaction via GUI?

The reason I ask, is that on several occasions I tried to convince
"ordinary" users to incorporate a VCS into their daily tasks. Not just
Fossil VCS, but Git and back in time SVN with GUI too. All of these
attempts were unsuccessful, mainly due to lack of perceived utility.

This gave me understanding that ordinary users deal with a different
"revision" workflow than programmers. As the notion of a "project"
often not clearly defined. Such users are often concerned with just a
single Word document which then balloons to tie in a whole bunch of
other resources. In such a setup a "change" representation is not what
VCS's diff could produce.

Also, there was not much of a need to retrieve previous states of such
a document while the work is still in progress. Only after reaching a
"final" version, such users would try to preserve the state before
making "tweaks". This would be often done by creating a named copy
(either of folder or just of TheFile).

Collaborative use is slightly more convincing, yet even then the
individual user workflow is still the same. The company backup policy
takes over the VCS functions.

Only one use-case, a "document tracking", was the most receptive.
Mostly for the management and compliance convenience, not for the
workflow. In such a case, tagging, searching and referencing were
requested.

So my feeling is that no amount of explanation or "instructions" would
convert such users to make use of a VCS in any form, GUI or not. VCS
would be perceived as an additional and annoying hoop to jump through.

So I wonder, how do you see your use-cases and GUI VCS workflow?



On Sun, Aug 5, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Gilles  wrote:
> Thanks for the info, but like 90% of deskop users, I run Windows. I gave up
> on deskop Linux, even though I give it a try every year or so just to check
> it out.
>
> I'm not arguing. It's just that Fossil is such a great SCM application that
> I guess it would benefit even more users if it were available as a GUI
> application instead of a CLI — which, I would venture, very few
> non-developers, in this day and age, even know there is such as thing.)
>
>
> On 05/08/2018 22:46, John Pateman wrote:
>
> Re Your point (2)
>
> There may not be a GUI for Windows (I don’t use Windows) but there is is a
> nice ‘Tortoise-like’ GUI for Fossil on macOS - Snail Fossil.
>
>
> On 5 Aug 2018, at 21:14, Gilles  wrote:
>
> On 05/08/2018 22:02, Richard Hipp wrote:
>
> How does adding an extra component and a bunch of new interfaces make
> a program easier to build?  I think that the key to building complex
> systems is to keep them as simple as possible.  If you can omit a
> DLL/shared library and all the maintenance and interface design
> associated with it, then why wouldn't you?
>
> I was asking this naïve question because
> 1. SQLite is a DLL + EXE package
> 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Steve Landers]

On 6 Aug 2018, 9:19 AM +0800, Steve Landers , wrote:
> Put differently, what can’t you do with “fossil ui” that you can do with a 
> native client?
>
> Drag and drop is the only one I can think of and I suspect that’s a good 
> thing.

And also push notifications. While it can be done with web tech I don’t 
advocate it for fossil.

Steve

> On 6 Aug 2018, 9:17 AM +0800, Richard Hipp , wrote:
> > On 8/5/18, Gilles  wrote:
> > > 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
> >
> > I would argue that running "fossil ui" is your GUI.
> >
> > --
> > D. Richard Hipp
> > d...@sqlite.org
> > ___
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

I guess that's another reason why there's no desktop UI for fossil.

It's just that I prefer desktop apps to web apps generally, but I can 
live with CLI + UI if there's nothing else.


This thread was not meant as criticism; It was just a question.

On 06/08/2018 03:18, Steve Landers wrote:
Put differently, what can’t you do with “fossil ui” that you can do 
with a native client?


Drag and drop is the only one I can think of and I suspect that’s a 
good thing.



-- Steve
On 6 Aug 2018, 9:17 AM +0800, Richard Hipp , wrote:

On 8/5/18, Gilles  wrote:

2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.


I would argue that running "fossil ui" is your GUI.

--
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Steve Landers]

Put differently, what can’t you do with “fossil ui” that you can do with a 
native client?

Drag and drop is the only one I can think of and I suspect that’s a good thing.


-- Steve
On 6 Aug 2018, 9:17 AM +0800, Richard Hipp , wrote:
> On 8/5/18, Gilles  wrote:
> > 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
>
> I would argue that running "fossil ui" is your GUI.
>
> --
> D. Richard Hipp
> d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Richard Hipp]

On 8/5/18, Gilles  wrote:
> 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.

I would argue that running "fossil ui" is your GUI.

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

Thanks for the info, but like 90% of deskop users, I run Windows. I gave 
up on deskop Linux, even though I give it a try every year or so just to 
check it out.


I'm not arguing. It's just that Fossil is such a great SCM application 
that I guess it would benefit even more users if it were available as a 
GUI application instead of a CLI — which, I would venture, very few 
non-developers, in this day and age, even know there is such as thing.)


On 05/08/2018 22:46, John Pateman wrote:

Re Your point (2)

There may not be a GUI for Windows (I don’t use Windows) but there is is a nice 
‘Tortoise-like’ GUI for Fossil on macOS - Snail Fossil.



On 5 Aug 2018, at 21:14, Gilles  wrote:

On 05/08/2018 22:02, Richard Hipp wrote:

How does adding an extra component and a bunch of new interfaces make
a program easier to build?  I think that the key to building complex
systems is to keep them as simple as possible.  If you can omit a
DLL/shared library and all the maintenance and interface design
associated with it, then why wouldn't you?

I was asking this naïve question because
1. SQLite is a DLL + EXE package
2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[John Pateman]

Re Your point (2)

There may not be a GUI for Windows (I don’t use Windows) but there is is a nice 
‘Tortoise-like’ GUI for Fossil on macOS - Snail Fossil.


> On 5 Aug 2018, at 21:14, Gilles  wrote:
> 
> On 05/08/2018 22:02, Richard Hipp wrote:
>> How does adding an extra component and a bunch of new interfaces make
>> a program easier to build?  I think that the key to building complex
>> systems is to keep them as simple as possible.  If you can omit a
>> DLL/shared library and all the maintenance and interface design
>> associated with it, then why wouldn't you?
> 
> I was asking this naïve question because
> 1. SQLite is a DLL + EXE package
> 2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

On 05/08/2018 22:02, Richard Hipp wrote:

How does adding an extra component and a bunch of new interfaces make
a program easier to build?  I think that the key to building complex
systems is to keep them as simple as possible.  If you can omit a
DLL/shared library and all the maintenance and interface design
associated with it, then why wouldn't you?


I was asking this naïve question because
1. SQLite is a DLL + EXE package
2. There's no maintained GUI for Fossil.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Gilles]

On 05/08/2018 21:28, Stephan Beal wrote:
Very, very long story very, very short: reimplementing fossil as a 
library requires a massive effort.

Too bad. Thanks for the info.
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Re: [fossil-users] Why no EXE+DLL like SQLite?

[Richard Hipp]

On 8/5/18, Gilles  wrote:
>
> I'm only a casual programmer, but I assume it would have made it easier
> to build a GUI by calling functions within the DLL.

How does adding an extra component and a bunch of new interfaces make
a program easier to build?  I think that the key to building complex
systems is to keep them as simple as possible.  If you can omit a
DLL/shared library and all the maintenance and interface design
associated with it, then why wouldn't you?

-- 
D. Richard Hipp
d...@sqlite.org
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