Re: default pager (csh)

[Alfred Perlstein]

On Feb 22, 2015, at 8:41 AM, RW wrote:

> On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:18:24 +1030
> Shane Ambler wrote:
> 
>> On 20/02/2015 01:22, RW wrote:  
>>> On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:16:59 -0600
>>> Mike Karels wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
 Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from
 less, not the original version of more.  
>>> 
>>> Actually, more is less
>>> 
>>> $ md5 -r  `which less ` `which more `
>>> 50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/less
>>> 50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/more  
>> 
>> Yes more has been less for some time, trouble is it is programmed to
>> behave differently based on the name used to call it so they aren't
>> the same.  
> 
> I'm aware of that.
> 
> 
>> Like everything, if you don't like the way it works you find a setting
>> to make it work the way you want. Whether you ask on a mailing list or
>> google it you will find a way to configure it your way.
>> 
>> As long as it works, the default is of little concern to most.  
> 
> Whatever the choice of default pager, I think the defaults should be
> set-up so man doesn't exit at the bottom of a page. The fact that it's
> easy to change make it all the more obtuse have a default that's awkward
> for new users who want to read the documentation.

+1

It's funny, our less doesn't bother telling people to hit 'q' to quit, so it's 
poisoned on both sides unfortunately.

-Alfred
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[RW]

On Fri, 20 Feb 2015 14:18:24 +1030
Shane Ambler wrote:

> On 20/02/2015 01:22, RW wrote:  
> > On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:16:59 -0600
> > Mike Karels wrote:
> >
> >  
> >> Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from
> >> less, not the original version of more.  
> >
> > Actually, more is less
> >
> > $ md5 -r  `which less ` `which more `
> > 50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/less
> > 50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/more  
> 
> Yes more has been less for some time, trouble is it is programmed to
> behave differently based on the name used to call it so they aren't
> the same.  

I'm aware of that.


> Like everything, if you don't like the way it works you find a setting
> to make it work the way you want. Whether you ask on a mailing list or
> google it you will find a way to configure it your way.
>
> As long as it works, the default is of little concern to most.  

Whatever the choice of default pager, I think the defaults should be
set-up so man doesn't exit at the bottom of a page. The fact that it's
easy to change make it all the more obtuse have a default that's awkward
for new users who want to read the documentation.
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Xin Li]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/20/15 18:05, Warren Block wrote:
>> It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent
>> it long ago and forgot, but all I use is this:
>> 
>> setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"
>> 
>> 
>> You probably did what I used to do. Modify the termcaps/terminfo
>> to eliminate this behavior. See Exorcising the Evil Alternate
>> Screen.
>> 
>> In the past, FreeBSD disabled this by default. It was changed
>> several years ago, but you can change it back as per the aboved
>> referenced article.
> 
> I'm pretty sure I have not done that, it would show up in
> mergemaster. As far as I can remember, less(1) has never done that
> clear-the-screen thing on FreeBSD, which is why it is so jarring on
> Linux.

Not all terminals will clear screen...

Cheers,
- -- 
Xin LI https://www.delphij.net/
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!   Live free or die
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.1.2 (FreeBSD)
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=+90O
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Warren Block]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Kevin Oberman wrote:


On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Warren Block  wrote:
  On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Julian Elischer wrote:

On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:

  The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does 
not clear
  screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' 
sequences),
  while less(1) when running as less does.

  The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people 
(sometimes even
  myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to 
paste
  them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to 
be the
  more vocal ones when it comes to a change.


I find that behaviour infuriating

I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a 
reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the info 
I wanted to
use has gone away.


  It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent it long 
ago and forgot, but all I use is this:

  setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"


You probably did what I used to do. Modify the termcaps/terminfo to eliminate 
this behavior. See Exorcising the Evil Alternate Screen.

In the past, FreeBSD disabled this by default. It was changed several years 
ago, but you can change it back as per the aboved referenced article.


I'm pretty sure I have not done that, it would show up in mergemaster. 
As far as I can remember, less(1) has never done that clear-the-screen 
thing on FreeBSD, which is why it is so jarring on Linux.

___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Jamie Landeg-Jones]

"Jeffrey Bouquet"  wrote:

> PAGER='cat'
> alias man='env PAGER=lookat man $1'

No need to alias 'man', just set env MANPAGER.

>From man man: (so good they named it twice etc.!)

-P pager
 Use specified pager.  Defaults to 'less -s' if color support is
 enabled, or 'more -s'.  Overrides the MANPAGER environment variable,
 which in turn overrides the PAGER environment variable.

cheers, Jamie
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Chris H]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 18:10:36 -0700 (MST) Warren Block 
wrote

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Julian Elischer wrote:
> 
> > On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:
> >> 
> >> The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
> >> screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
> >> while less(1) when running as less does.
> >> 
> >> The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
> >> myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
> >> them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
> >> more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
> >
> > I find that behaviour infuriating
> >
> > I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a
> > reference,  then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the
> > info I wanted  to use has gone away.
> 
> It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent it 
> long ago and forgot, but all I use is this:
> 
> setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"
Ugh. It would kill me to *re*read the man pages, once and awhile.

Thanks, Warren!

--Chris
> ___
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"


___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Kevin Oberman]

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Kevin Oberman  wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Warren Block  wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Julian Elischer wrote:
>>
>>  On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:
>>>

 The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
 screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
 while less(1) when running as less does.

 The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
 myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
 them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
 more vocal ones when it comes to a change.

>>>
>>> I find that behaviour infuriating
>>>
>>> I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a
>>> reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the
>>> info I wanted to use has gone away.
>>>
>>
>> It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent it long
>> ago and forgot, but all I use is this:
>>
>> setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"
>>
>
> You probably did what I used to do. Modify the termcaps/terminfo to
> eliminate this behavior. See Exorcising the Evil Alternate Screen
> .
>
> In the past, FreeBSD disabled this by default. It was changed several
> years ago, but you can change it back as per the above referenced article.
>
>
Well, I just looked at this and it looks like FreeBSD is using termcap, not
terminfo. So you can "fix" this by defining TERM to a version of xterm that
does not define alternate screen. I use xterm which, rather surprisingly,
does not define ti or te. Neither do any of the xterm variants that I can
find in termcap.  (N.B. I am NOT running xterm. I am using mate-terminal,
but it still works.) rxvt variants do define them, as do a great many
others. Take a look at /usr/share/misc/termcap. Just remember that editing
it does nothing until termcap.db is rebuilt.
--
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Shane Ambler]

On 20/02/2015 01:22, RW wrote:

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:16:59 -0600
Mike Karels wrote:



Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from
less, not the original version of more.


Actually, more is less

$ md5 -r  `which less ` `which more `
50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/less
50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/more


Yes more has been less for some time, trouble is it is programmed to
behave differently based on the name used to call it so they aren't the 
same.


Try this -

echo "test data" > testfile
more testfile
less testfile

So the debate over which is better continues

Like everything, if you don't like the way it works you find a setting
to make it work the way you want. Whether you ask on a mailing list or
google it you will find a way to configure it your way.

As long as it works, the default is of little concern to most.

I don't even remember what year I set my pager to more, till I just
looked I would have guessed I was using the default.

Whatever intro I got started with used more as a pager and I have just
used it since. I just think '| more' not '| less'

--
FreeBSD - the place to B...Software Developing

Shane Ambler

___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Kevin Oberman]

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 5:10 PM, Warren Block  wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Julian Elischer wrote:
>
>  On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
>>> screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
>>> while less(1) when running as less does.
>>>
>>> The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
>>> myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
>>> them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
>>> more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
>>>
>>
>> I find that behaviour infuriating
>>
>> I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a
>> reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the
>> info I wanted to use has gone away.
>>
>
> It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent it long
> ago and forgot, but all I use is this:
>
> setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"
>

You probably did what I used to do. Modify the termcaps/terminfo to
eliminate this behavior. See Exorcising the Evil Alternate Screen
.

In the past, FreeBSD disabled this by default. It was changed several years
ago, but you can change it back as per the aboved referenced article.
--
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Warren Block]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Julian Elischer wrote:


On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:


The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
while less(1) when running as less does.

The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
more vocal ones when it comes to a change.


I find that behaviour infuriating

I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a reference, 
then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the info I wanted 
to use has gone away.


It doesn't do that on csh.  Or maybe I figured out how to prevent it 
long ago and forgot, but all I use is this:


setenv  PAGER   "less -RS"
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Kevin Oberman]

On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:36 PM, Daniel Eischen 
wrote:

> On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Alfred Perlstein wrote:
>
>>
>> Not as annoying as people who don't search the web for an answer for
>> things.
>>
>> ~ % export PAGER="less -X"
>>
>> everyone please stop crying over small changes, it really sucks.
>>
>>
> Not sure what you are saying, but the question posed is changing
> the default pager.  So that means:
>
>   o all users who like the current more(1) behavior have to define
> and override PAGER.
>
>   o all users who like the less(1) behavior remove their override
> of PAGER
>
> Or leave things alone, and users who want less(1) behavior
> override PAGER, which they've probably already done if it's
> that annoying to them.
>
> The answer seems pretty simple to me.
>
> --
> DE
>
>
I still want my purple and yellow bikeshed and most(1).


No matter when happens, a lot of people will need to undertake the massive
and painful effort of defining PAGER. I realize this is a terrible burden
for may of them.


Let's call the whole thing off and maybe do something useful.
--
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Daniel Eischen]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Alfred Perlstein wrote:


Not as annoying as people who don't search the web for an answer for things.

~ % export PAGER="less -X"

everyone please stop crying over small changes, it really sucks.



Not sure what you are saying, but the question posed is changing
the default pager.  So that means:

  o all users who like the current more(1) behavior have to define
and override PAGER.

  o all users who like the less(1) behavior remove their override
of PAGER

Or leave things alone, and users who want less(1) behavior
override PAGER, which they've probably already done if it's
that annoying to them.

The answer seems pretty simple to me.

--
DE
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Alfred Perlstein]

On 2/19/15 9:04 AM, Chris H wrote:

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:16:55 -0800 Julian Elischer  wrote


On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:

The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
while less(1) when running as less does.

The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
more vocal ones when it comes to a change.

I find that behaviour infuriating

I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a
reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam*
the info I wanted to use has gone away.

Indeed. Quite annoying.
I just had an interesting thought after reading most of this
thread/bikeshed;
Theoretical, mind you. But would it be remotely possible to
[in (t)csh(1)] choose a pager on-the-fly (dynamically)?
In other words; bind keys to a chosen pager;

^M switches to more(1)
^L switched to less(1)

I've done no *actual* research [yet] but just thought
I'd bring it up. As it seemed worth a shot, as it would
satisfy *anyone's* need. :)


Not as annoying as people who don't search the web for an answer for things.

~ % export PAGER="less -X"

everyone please stop crying over small changes, it really sucks.

-Alfred
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Daniel Eischen]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, Ian Lepore wrote:


On Thu, 2015-02-19 at 07:46 +0100, Franco Fichtner wrote:

On 19 Feb 2015, at 02:27, Davide Italiano  wrote:

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall  wrote:

The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"


OK, I think this ends the discussion =)


Nope, not good enough.  The way I see it we achieved nothing
despite the fact that several bugs are on the table.

Now that we all agree more(1) is the way to go, can we please fix
colouring and the pager quit issue for man pages using sensible
options in more(1)?

Other's should speak up for their woes with the FreeBSD defaults
too.  The defaults are supposed to be the best we can do.  Right
now, we can actually do better.  :)


I sure hope "fix coloring" is shorthand for "don't you dare turn on any
of that color crap without the user's permission."


Agree!  Leave pager alone.

And I kind of like that PAGER exits when you get to the end, but
perhaps I'm in the minority on that.

The thing I can't stand is losing all contents of 'man' when you
exit the pager, so I'm with Julian on that too.

--
DE
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Chris H]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 00:16:55 -0800 Julian Elischer  wrote

> On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:
> >
> > The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
> > screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
> > while less(1) when running as less does.
> >
> > The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
> > myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
> > them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
> > more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
> 
> I find that behaviour infuriating
> 
> I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a 
> reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* 
> the info I wanted to use has gone away.
Indeed. Quite annoying.
I just had an interesting thought after reading most of this
thread/bikeshed;
Theoretical, mind you. But would it be remotely possible to
[in (t)csh(1)] choose a pager on-the-fly (dynamically)?
In other words; bind keys to a chosen pager;

^M switches to more(1)
^L switched to less(1)

I've done no *actual* research [yet] but just thought
I'd bring it up. As it seemed worth a shot, as it would
satisfy *anyone's* need. :)

--Chris
> 
> 
> ___
> freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"


___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Marcin Cieslak]

On Thu, 19 Feb 2015, RW wrote:

> On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:16:59 -0600
> Mike Karels wrote:
> 
> 
> > Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from
> > less, not the original version of more.
> 
> Actually, more is less

Fortunately we don't set LESSOPEN by default
like some (most?) Linux distributions.

http://seclists.org/oss-sec/2014/q4/769

Maybe this feature should even be disabled
when in "more" mode.

//Marcin
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Ian Lepore]

On Thu, 2015-02-19 at 07:46 +0100, Franco Fichtner wrote:
> > On 19 Feb 2015, at 02:27, Davide Italiano  wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall  
> > wrote:
> >> The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:
> >> 
> >> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
> >> ___
> >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
> > 
> > OK, I think this ends the discussion =)
> 
> Nope, not good enough.  The way I see it we achieved nothing
> despite the fact that several bugs are on the table.
> 
> Now that we all agree more(1) is the way to go, can we please fix
> colouring and the pager quit issue for man pages using sensible
> options in more(1)?
> 
> Other's should speak up for their woes with the FreeBSD defaults
> too.  The defaults are supposed to be the best we can do.  Right
> now, we can actually do better.  :)

I sure hope "fix coloring" is shorthand for "don't you dare turn on any
of that color crap without the user's permission."

-- Ian


___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[RW]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 19:16:59 -0600
Mike Karels wrote:


> Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from
> less, not the original version of more.

Actually, more is less

$ md5 -r  `which less ` `which more `
50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/less
50404f1beaa4e1261407190a88494b59 /usr/bin/more
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Jeffrey Bouquet]

On Wed, 18 Feb 2015 23:45:27 -0800, Kevin Oberman  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Franco Fichtner 
> wrote:
> 
> >
> > > On 19 Feb 2015, at 02:27, Davide Italiano  wrote:
> > >
> > > On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall 
> > wrote:
> > >> The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:
> > >>
> > >> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
> > >> ___
> > >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> > >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> > >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> > freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
> > >
> > > OK, I think this ends the discussion =)
> >
> > Nope, not good enough.  The way I see it we achieved nothing
> > despite the fact that several bugs are on the table.
> >
> > Now that we all agree more(1) is the way to go, can we please fix
> > colouring and the pager quit issue for man pages using sensible
> > options in more(1)?
> >
> > Other's should speak up for their woes with the FreeBSD defaults
> > too.  The defaults are supposed to be the best we can do.  Right
> > now, we can actually do better.  :)
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Franco
> >
> 
> I want my bikeshed to be purple with yellow stars.
> 
> I want my PAGER to be Jim Davis's most(1). Does a LOT more than more or
> less. (Does have the annoying te/ti thing, though.) Displays binary.
> Auto-decompresses compressed files. Allows moving my line or percentage.
> Whole raft of neat stuff. Usually the second port (after portmaster) I
> install on a system since my finger type "most" even when I want them to
> type "more" because the system does not have most installed.
> 
> I don't expect anyone else to agree and don't expect it to ever be in the
> base, let alone the default. Still, it's a much better pager then less,
> whether it's called more or not. Started using it at least 25 years ago on
> VMS.
> --
> Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
> E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com
> ___
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"


Here:  (.zshrc)...

PAGER='cat'
alias man='env PAGER=lookat man $1'

That bottom one is so useful for the 's' search key... EXAMPLES for instance.  
Same on all keyboards...
[ seems easier to read with default colors, also... ]
However in some instances (screen, dvtm, tmux... ) it may have onscreen 
artifacts
one can simply then 'sh' (untested) first... for  usual 'man' instance of PAGER.
/usr/ports/sysutils/lookat...

[ Just re-noticed that 'cat' entry today.  No idea of the difference to a 
default... ]
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Michael Gmelin]

> On 19 Feb 2015, at 09:16, Julian Elischer  wrote:
> 
>> On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:
>> 
>> The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
>> screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
>> while less(1) when running as less does.
>> 
>> The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
>> myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
>> them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
>> more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
> 
> I find that behaviour infuriating
> 
> I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a reference, 
> then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* the info I wanted 
> to use has gone away.

Yeah, that drives me nuts too, Debian had (has?) this and it's a no-go for me. 
Changing options for man would be nice though, so finding something near the 
end of the page won't exit the pager.
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Julian Elischer]

On 2/18/15 3:41 PM, Xin Li wrote:


The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
while less(1) when running as less does.

The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
more vocal ones when it comes to a change.


I find that behaviour infuriating

I page down to a place to get some text on the screen to use as  a 
reference, then exit to run a command with that information, and *bam* 
the info I wanted to use has gone away.



___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Kevin Oberman]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 10:46 PM, Franco Fichtner 
wrote:

>
> > On 19 Feb 2015, at 02:27, Davide Italiano  wrote:
> >
> > On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall 
> wrote:
> >> The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:
> >>
> >> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
> >> ___
> >> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> >> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> >> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "
> freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
> >
> > OK, I think this ends the discussion =)
>
> Nope, not good enough.  The way I see it we achieved nothing
> despite the fact that several bugs are on the table.
>
> Now that we all agree more(1) is the way to go, can we please fix
> colouring and the pager quit issue for man pages using sensible
> options in more(1)?
>
> Other's should speak up for their woes with the FreeBSD defaults
> too.  The defaults are supposed to be the best we can do.  Right
> now, we can actually do better.  :)
>
>
> Cheers,
> Franco
>

I want my bikeshed to be purple with yellow stars.

I want my PAGER to be Jim Davis's most(1). Does a LOT more than more or
less. (Does have the annoying te/ti thing, though.) Displays binary.
Auto-decompresses compressed files. Allows moving my line or percentage.
Whole raft of neat stuff. Usually the second port (after portmaster) I
install on a system since my finger type "most" even when I want them to
type "more" because the system does not have most installed.

I don't expect anyone else to agree and don't expect it to ever be in the
base, let alone the default. Still, it's a much better pager then less,
whether it's called more or not. Started using it at least 25 years ago on
VMS.
--
Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer, Retired
E-mail: rkober...@gmail.com
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Franco Fichtner]

> On 19 Feb 2015, at 02:27, Davide Italiano  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall  wrote:
>> The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:
>> 
>> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
>> ___
>> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
>> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"
> 
> OK, I think this ends the discussion =)

Nope, not good enough.  The way I see it we achieved nothing
despite the fact that several bugs are on the table.

Now that we all agree more(1) is the way to go, can we please fix
colouring and the pager quit issue for man pages using sensible
options in more(1)?

Other's should speak up for their woes with the FreeBSD defaults
too.  The defaults are supposed to be the best we can do.  Right
now, we can actually do better.  :)


Cheers,
Franco
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Davide Italiano]

On Wed, Feb 18, 2015 at 5:18 PM, Adam McDougall  wrote:
> The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:
>
> https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
> ___
> freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
> http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
> To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

OK, I think this ends the discussion =)

Thanks!

-- 
Davide

"There are no solved problems; there are only problems that are more
or less solved" -- Henri Poincare
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Adam McDougall]

The PAGER was less for about half a year and reverted.  Please see:

https://svnweb.freebsd.org/base?view=revision&revision=242643
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Mike Karels]

Kim Shrier  wrote:
> > On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Xin Li  wrote:
> > 
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA512
> > 
> > On 02/18/15 15:18, Davide Italiano wrote:
> >> Hi, one of the first things I do when I install FreeBSD is to
> >> switch the default PAGER from more(1) to less(1). This is
> >> particularly convenient, e.g. while using git diff, to show
> >> something more readable. Just out of curiosity, is there a reason
> >> why more(1) is still the default, and/or is this just historical?
> > 
> > The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
> > screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
> > while less(1) when running as less does.
> > 
> > The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
> > myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
> > them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
> > more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
> > 
> Being one of those people who strongly prefer using more, I vote
> against this change.  Also, it is easier to scroll back in a terminal
> window using more.  Every system I use, if it defaults the PAGER
> to less, I change it to more.

I think the defaults of both programs on FreeBSD are suboptimal.  I prefer
more with MORE=-eF, which fixes the man page issue mentioned earlier.

This is clearly a personal preference item; we won't get it "right" for
everyone.  However, anyone who can use git can definitely switch pagers.

Trivia: the version of more on BSD systems actually is derived from less,
not the original version of more.

Mike

___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Kim Shrier]

> On Feb 18, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Xin Li  wrote:
> 
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA512
> 
> On 02/18/15 15:18, Davide Italiano wrote:
>> Hi, one of the first things I do when I install FreeBSD is to
>> switch the default PAGER from more(1) to less(1). This is
>> particularly convenient, e.g. while using git diff, to show
>> something more readable. Just out of curiosity, is there a reason
>> why more(1) is still the default, and/or is this just historical?
> 
> The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
> screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
> while less(1) when running as less does.
> 
> The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
> myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
> them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
> more vocal ones when it comes to a change.
> 
Being one of those people who strongly prefer using more, I vote
against this change.  Also, it is easier to scroll back in a terminal
window using more.  Every system I use, if it defaults the PAGER
to less, I change it to more.

Kim
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Jason Hellenthal]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Great quote for the OP on the thread. 

I for one would be for switching it to ‘less -M’ then it would respect a users 
wish to use environment variables LESS and LESSPIPE but still carry the 
traditional behavior.

On Feb 18, 2015, at 17:18, Davide Italiano  wrote:

Hi,
one of the first things I do when I install FreeBSD is to switch the
default PAGER from more(1) to less(1). This is particularly
convenient, e.g. while using git diff, to show something more
readable.
Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why more(1) is still the
default, and/or is this just historical?

- -- 
Davide

"There are no solved problems; there are only problems that are more
or less solved" -- Henri Poincare
___
freebsd-hack...@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-hackers
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-hackers-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

- -- 
 Jason Hellenthal
 Mobile: +1 (616) 953-0176
 jhellent...@dataix.net
 JJH48-ARIN

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJU5R6bAAoJEDLu+wRc4KcIB8YH+wdyVQNGRPqtzdiEKAR1dGJB
jc4q+2+RMs1GpDNsFzjdFBgM30MiwinZ/USZJGzWLoA7lqIHZmpM1PzsvSdMQ0oR
5e9atR+tOVkDMp6P5xXyjj6HNEwRCUv+FmHAzajpJYHqEArpms3H+MUSz8ytgiu6
sJfxpGAY0woaK/sINDV01GfYYneoqqRZtvOioSNVp94+Wtd74o5+W367mGk9vpl6
XRCbj1c0agDhi9FWptH/BcnAFV0JMnhC0v8mtgnmgdD6AoO/lwsswjZysWOJ+ooZ
vZmQqk1GzK486Mb2evjgcapZfgCZx6ObRhEXa6VYfjyOz3P19syqFrfMtL+x6hQ=
=7Jy7
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Franco Fichtner]

> On 19 Feb 2015, at 00:41, Xin Li  wrote:
> 
> Other behavioral difference are trivial (or people care less to speak up).

more(1) with man(1) is suboptimal when skipping to the end it
quits the pager and one can't scroll back.

> I use less(1) instead of more(1) on all systems I have, so if some
> brave soul wants to make the change I'd say "just go for it!" but
> that's my $0.02 only.

DragonFly made the pager change a while back last year.  I do
carry these modifications for OPNsense as well.


Cheers,
Franco
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"

Re: default pager (csh)

[Xin Li]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 02/18/15 15:18, Davide Italiano wrote:
> Hi, one of the first things I do when I install FreeBSD is to
> switch the default PAGER from more(1) to less(1). This is
> particularly convenient, e.g. while using git diff, to show
> something more readable. Just out of curiosity, is there a reason
> why more(1) is still the default, and/or is this just historical?

The _only_ reason that I can think of is that more(1) does not clear
screen for certain terminals (done with 'ti' and 'te' sequences),
while less(1) when running as less does.

The less(1) behavior can be annoying to some people (sometimes even
myself when using less to show contents of a file and ^Z to paste
them), and unfortunately quite a few of them also happen to be the
more vocal ones when it comes to a change.

Other behavioral difference are trivial (or people care less to speak up).

I use less(1) instead of more(1) on all systems I have, so if some
brave soul wants to make the change I'd say "just go for it!" but
that's my $0.02 only.

Cheers,
- -- 
Xin LI https://www.delphij.net/
FreeBSD - The Power to Serve!   Live free or die
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v2.1.1 (FreeBSD)

iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJU5SMrAAoJEJW2GBstM+nsd7AQAJNJnZtu3YabP0wzbwZuhQHu
7BvG/RLEqUe6ZmR10pcxe/vr6W+d7HpRuBcF09MSclpijTie+w/5AmaP7NNCCrHc
+lAtUhGxGhloTmpkm3GhL94ai1AMoKSIwKgT2Onx76CWYXKfh2ycN4EDfAHUlenZ
4N+3NYua/20deTy0rji0HYMexN4/ZUApsiX9hLwj+mlVl/KVNLMh2OIoUpdbnfJi
MU9h+/WPZGBJeU4VQU3YO77sPm23EIzirFajM4Fqk6AZJp8ueHp5U0Bz1l98fBFZ
EUx2Bh4DLhn/+7AUlCiW3ByAwyaEzdjpeGwIT97hqHE+7r0Yuf69Sf1mdUcIbMNd
TOMo3oKTsVWtYkzB8DZAvGw6y73sLxm6KRwGYWoU3SIhIacU7zer5FC755pPGw3V
RqjBPu6nD8BCCXaBumiFtwrr88+vdDV6HfWRXfwSukT4sAYDAzjDEAhuY8kzDyWB
vW9KG5IqPrTXPabdAKEj8qpfZBbspYUT0jOPrnto9/S5pnxkXmtmTn/gfVELjblj
mLkJYPX9W25ziz3hI9t/wOp2Rl5GzBQdudIXpwD/06/L9h9X4CD38NdEQtJOOLyp
M4twYFkiFJZp64XhuwMJ4BGIunj4OsbDfmvZEbJJfV8Z2mgA0QbRvfZG7UqVThd0
MTHLk0J7hIunFwIdICpI
=whDB
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
___
freebsd-current@freebsd.org mailing list
http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-current
To unsubscribe, send any mail to "freebsd-current-unsubscr...@freebsd.org"