date:20120217

> From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org  Fri Feb 17 19:56:00 2012
> From: Doug Hardie 
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:50:44 -0800
> To: FreeBSD Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
>
>
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
> > We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
> > with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
> > swap.
>
>
> I only run servers and set them up with /, /usr, and swap.  Other partitions 
> are placed on other disks with typically one partition per disk.  I link /var
> and /tmp into /usr.

That last is a *BAD*IDEA*(tm).  There _are_ programs that assume that /var/tmp
and /usr/tme are *different* places -- and will attempt to create 'distinct' 
files _with_the_same_name_ in the two diretories.

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Re: swap space

> From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org  Fri Feb 17 17:59:50 2012
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:54:18 -0800
> From: Jim Pazarena 
> To: FreeBSD Mailing List 
> Subject: swap space
>
> is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?
>
> A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.

That *is* "expected" behavior.
  
'df' shows utilization of -filesystems-.  'swap' is not filesystem.

> This would be on a live production server.

The "traditional" means is 'pstat -s'.  On relatively modern systems,
'swapinfo' is an alias.

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Re: Adobe Linux Flash

> From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org  Fri Feb 17 16:25:49 2012
> From: sean 
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 17:20:26 -0500
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: Adobe Linux Flash
>
>
> On Feb 16, 2012, at 8:33 PM, Da Rock wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > Problem, I think lies, in the symlink. You don't need it, kill it and run 
> > nspluginwrapper - the only flash file in your browser plugins directory 
> > should be prefixed with npwrapper.
> > 
> > There may be an issue with nspluginwrapper (currently being discussed - can 
> > anyone confirm if its similar?) that has to resolved.
> > 
> > Just to check, can you run `find /usr/local/ | grep ld-linux.so` and see if 
> > it comes up? It could show ld-linux.so or the same followed by a number. 
> > Copy the result here.
>
> I deleted both symlinks and ran the find, no results returned.

Try: find / -name 'ld-linux.so*' -print   (including the single-quotes) 

If you do _NOT_ get a listing from that, you didn't just delete the symlink,
you wiped out the actual shared library, and will have to re-install it.


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Re: One or Four?

> From owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org  Fri Feb 17 16:20:48 2012
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:05:23 -0800
> From: "Robison, Dave" 
> To: 
> Subject: One or Four?
>
> Hiya,
>
> A question has arisen with the implementation of bsdinstall in 9.x as 
> opposed to sysinstall in 8.x and previous versions of FreeBSD.
>
> It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap 
> as such:
>
> /
> /tmp
> /var
> /usr
> swap
>
> The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which 
> creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a 
> single "/" partition as such:
>
> /
> swap

Blame the Linux community for fostering _that_ silliness.   

> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
> swap.

*I* would stronngly prefer _five_ partitions plus swap;

  /
  /tmp
  /var
  /usr
  /home
  swap

There are good arguments to be made for keeping the '/' filesystem as small 
as practical, _and_ restricting it to 'system' content -- preferably all
"non-volatile" such that it (as well as '/usr') can be mounted read-only.

The above-mentioned RO mounting does wonders for system reliability and 
speed of crash recovery.


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Re: /usr/home vs /home (was: Re: One or Four?)

2012-02-17 Thread Lars Eighner


On Fri, 17 Feb 2012, Daniel Staal wrote:

--As of February 17, 2012 11:46:23 PM +0100, Polytropon is alleged to have 
said:



Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
default style for separated partitions include:

/
swap
/tmp
/var
/usr
/home

In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
with intendedly limited sizes.

You can see that all user data is kept independently from
the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
a separate "home disk" if needed.


--As for the rest, it is mine.

I'm in agreement with you on that I like to have /home be a separate 
partition, and not under /usr.


It seems to me that partition and mount point are being confused to a
degree.  There is no reason what is mounted at /usr/home cannot be a
separate partition as well as if it were mounted at root.  There are some
good reasons for the user directories (and perhaps some other data) to be on
a separate partition - mostly the reasons relate to ease of back up and
migration whether planned or emergency.  Arguments about where to mount that
partition are not so practical, being more in the philosophic and historical
realm. Pick one, recognize not everyone will be on the same page and put
appropriate links in.

(Of course, my current zfs system has 40 
partitions...)  Partly though I recognize that I like it because that's what 
I'm used to, and how I learned to set it up originally.  (My first unix 
experience was with OpenBSD, over 10 years ago now.)


I've never seen anything listing the main reasons for having /home under /usr 
though.  I figure there must be a decent reason why.  Would anyone care to 
enlighten me?  What are the perceived advantages?  (Particularly if you then 
make a symlink to /home.)


There may have been a historic reason, but now it is philosophical - trying
to keep the system and userland distinction clear.  But there are many flaws
in the attempted separation. /var for example is the default location for
many logs, both system and user, the spools (remember news?), and databases.
You really cannot drop /usr into a different system and have an operational
result.

(I put the home directories, the www directory, databases and spools all on
the same physical partition which I mount arbitrarily at /usr/local/data. It
isn't exactly plug-n-play, but in tests and emergencies is has proved
practical to drop the partition into several linices with a high level of
functionally  - depending on application versioning being close to in sync.)


--
Lars Eighner
http://www.larseighner.com/index.html
8800 N IH35 APT 1191 AUSTIN TX 78753-5266

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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Leslie Jensen




2012-02-17 23:46, Polytropon skrev:

Four? There should be five! :-)

Read on to find out why.



On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:05:23 -0800, Robison, Dave wrote:

We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default
with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and
swap.


In my case, preference depends on use. When I'm unable to
predict how partition occupation will develop, going with
one / partition is a good approach. It can also be useful
for cases like home desktops.

Other cases, like dedicated servers or systems that use
more than one physical disk (e. g. one system disk, one
home disk) the approach of using more than one partition
is welcome.

I'd like to mention that using different partitions for
a logical separation of mechanisms and functionalities
can be a _big_ help in worst case (which you'll hopefully
never will encounter, but be prepared). For example, if
you have file system trouble with the /home partition,
you can bring the system up in a limited state (SUM),
make the partition "ro" and get the data. You can then
boot the system into the normal state (MUM) with using
the copy you made, leaving the original /home partition
unmounted and untouched. In case of data recovery and
forensic analysis this can be your chance to get your
data back.




We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as
one wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We
want to know if people would prefer the older style default with four
partitions and swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire
Disk".


Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
default style for separated partitions include:

/
swap
/tmp
/var
/usr
/home

In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
with intendedly limited sizes.

You can see that all user data is kept independently from
the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
a separate "home disk" if needed.

What's the reason for this? Limited partitions are often
considered a problem, but they can be a system's life saver.
Just imagine you have all functional parts of the system in
one big / tree, let's also say /tmp is writable for users
(and it's not a memory file system); now a maliciously acting
user or program could fill /tmp with lots of data, occupying
the full disk. Soon, /var/log cannot be written anymore, and
also other processes that need to write something may get
into trouble. If /tmp is a separate partition, only /tmp can
get "out of disk space", with /var being fully untouched.

Also keep in mind that some tools like to operate on partition
level, such as dump (and restore). System tools like quota can
also be used on a partition level. As I mentioned before, being
able to mount a partition read-only can be helpful sometimes,
same goes for other mount options, such as noexec or noatime.
When dealing with this low level stuff is neccessary (e. g. on
embedded systems or systems that are low on resources where you
need to squeeze every bit of performance by fine tuning), having
individual partitions can be a big help.




Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.


Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
this:

Partition scheme


[ ] all in one + swap
Create one partition containing all subtrees
plus one swap partition.

[ ] separate partitioning + swap
Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
partitions plus one swap partition.

[ ] user-defined
Make your own partitioning selection manually.

Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
reasonable.






This suggestion gets my wote

/L
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Re: /usr/home vs /home


On 02/18/12 12:16, Daniel Staal wrote:
--As of February 17, 2012 11:46:23 PM +0100, Polytropon is alleged to 
have said:



Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
default style for separated partitions include:

/
swap
/tmp
/var
/usr
/home

In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
with intendedly limited sizes.

You can see that all user data is kept independently from
the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
a separate "home disk" if needed.


--As for the rest, it is mine.

I'm in agreement with you on that I like to have /home be a separate 
partition, and not under /usr.  (Of course, my current zfs system has 
40 partitions...)  Partly though I recognize that I like it because 
that's what I'm used to, and how I learned to set it up originally.  
(My first unix experience was with OpenBSD, over 10 years ago now.)


I've never seen anything listing the main reasons for having /home 
under /usr though.  I figure there must be a decent reason why.  Would 
anyone care to enlighten me?  What are the perceived advantages?  
(Particularly if you then make a symlink to /home.)

I always thought /usr was like user partition :)

But seriously, for the pedantic yes, but for a desktop user (at least) 
having home on /usr partition makes sense - balances space and 
functionality; plus a lack of nodes on the disk for partitions? Limit 
was 8 I think. But now with /usr/home if you want to install from ports 
it can take a few gig, but that can be wasted because you're not always 
installing from ports, so might as well share space with the home 
directories and balance that way. Otherwise you'd need 30G (about) for 
/usr/ports and all the stuff you want to install and then that cannot be 
used at all for /home which could be cleared quite easily to make room 
if necessary if it was on the same partition.


All is possible, but not all is necessary or recommended.

If I seem a little 'spacy' I have kids hurrying me to make their lunch... ;)


Just a question that's been bugging me, as I read through different 
FreeBSD docs.


Daniel T. Staal

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/usr/home vs /home (was: Re: One or Four?)

2012-02-17 Thread Daniel Staal

--As of February 17, 2012 11:46:23 PM +0100, Polytropon is alleged to have 
said:



Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
default style for separated partitions include:

/
swap
/tmp
/var
/usr
/home

In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
with intendedly limited sizes.

You can see that all user data is kept independently from
the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
a separate "home disk" if needed.


--As for the rest, it is mine.

I'm in agreement with you on that I like to have /home be a separate 
partition, and not under /usr.  (Of course, my current zfs system has 40 
partitions...)  Partly though I recognize that I like it because that's 
what I'm used to, and how I learned to set it up originally.  (My first 
unix experience was with OpenBSD, over 10 years ago now.)


I've never seen anything listing the main reasons for having /home under 
/usr though.  I figure there must be a decent reason why.  Would anyone 
care to enlighten me?  What are the perceived advantages?  (Particularly if 
you then make a symlink to /home.)


Just a question that's been bugging me, as I read through different FreeBSD 
docs.


Daniel T. Staal

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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

On Saturday 18 February 2012 05:05:23 Robison, Dave wrote:
> 
> It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap 
> as such:
> 
> /
> /tmp
> /var
> /usr
> swap
> 
it really makes sense to keep it this way.

> The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which 
> creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a 
> single "/" partition as such:
> 
> /
> swap

Can you offer an option for beginners to get this schema installed?

I have had bad experiences with Windows running all on a single partition 
including swap.

FreeBSD always reboots no matter how screwed the /usr file system got. It does 
not matter if it is just full or damages for some other reason. At the least 
the machine is up and running and it is possible to fix the damaged partition.

How should it be possible to mount root as read only if root contains /usr?

I think that there are many more reasons why at least / has to stay separated 
from /usr. 
> 
> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

When will the result be published?

Erich
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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread John Levine

>Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?

Pine is dead, replaced by alpine.  The FreeBSD port has a config option
to support maildirs.  I've used it, it works.

R's,
John
 
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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Doug Hardie

On Feb 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default with 
> 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and swap.

I only run servers and set them up with /, /usr, and swap.  Other partitions 
are placed on other disks with typically one partition per disk.  I link /var 
and /tmp into /usr.

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Re: Adobe Linux Flash (Success)

2012-02-17 Thread Frank Shute

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 07:48:31PM -0500, sean wrote:
>
> On 02/17/12 19:27, sean wrote:
> >
> >
> >Now when I run nspluginwrapper -v -a -i as a user I get the following,
> >
> >Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
> >Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
> >Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
> >Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
> >Install plugin 
> >/usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin/libflashplayer.so
> > ... already installed system-wide, skipping
> >Auto-install plugins from /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins
> >Looking for plugins in /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins
> >
> I noticed in the above information that it was looking for the flash 
> plugin in the plugins directory under .mozilla.
> There was no such directory.
> I created the directory and ran nspluginwrapper again and flash is now 
> listed and working.
> It seems to flicker on occasions a bit but it is running.
> Are there any tuning options that might be available to get rid of the 
> occasional flicker?
> 
> Thanks all,
> Sean

Glad you got it working. Maybe the Handbook needs
correcting/expanding.

I don't get the flicker that you speak of but on occasion Firefox can
peg  back a core 100% constantly and I have to restart the browser. I
think this is probably flash related but I haven't investigated it. So
keep an eye on "top" output.

I'd recommend www/xpi-flashblock. You can whitelist sites such as
Youtube and the bbc whilst blocking the crappy flash adverts that are
a feature of too many sites on the web. Especially useful if you're on
a narrowband connection or metered.

Regards,

-- 

 Frank

 Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html

pgpi5vWqIBqYB.pgp
Description: PGP signature

Re: One or Four?


On 02/18/12 11:17, David Brodbeck wrote:

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Chris Hill  wrote:

Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
this:

Partition scheme


[ ] all in one + swap
Create one partition containing all subtrees
plus one swap partition.

[ ] separate partitioning + swap
Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
partitions plus one swap partition.

[ ] user-defined
Make your own partitioning selection manually.

Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
reasonable.


I like it. This, or something very similar, seems to me like the best way to
go.

I am not a professional sysadmin, but have been using FreeBSD since 2.2.6.
FWIW, I prefer the multi-partition approach for all the reasons already
mentioned.

I used to...I found it tended to result in more administration load
later, though, because the automated installer's (or my own!) guesses
for partition size are rarely entirely adequate.  Then you end up
slapping in another disk, backing up and repartitioning, or
maintaining a symlink farm...

The default 512 MB root partition was always a particular pain point.
It's completely inadequate if you ever try to build a custom kernel
and want the option of falling back to the old one.  It makes
distribution upgrades nearly impossible.
This has been fixed for some time now. The default for / (specifically 
to fit 2 kernels and some) is now 1G. /var is now 4G.


Nowadays I tend to either use one big root or just root and home for
desktops.  (having a separate home directory *is* nice for upgrades,
sometimes, but again you gotta guess right...)  For servers I will
additionally split off /var, to limit the damage if logging runs amok.


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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread David Brodbeck

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 3:49 PM, Chris Hill  wrote:
>> Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
>> this:
>>
>>        Partition scheme
>>        
>>
>>        [ ] all in one + swap
>>            Create one partition containing all subtrees
>>            plus one swap partition.
>>
>>        [ ] separate partitioning + swap
>>            Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
>>            partitions plus one swap partition.
>>
>>        [ ] user-defined
>>            Make your own partitioning selection manually.
>>
>> Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
>> reasonable.
>
>
> I like it. This, or something very similar, seems to me like the best way to
> go.
>
> I am not a professional sysadmin, but have been using FreeBSD since 2.2.6.
> FWIW, I prefer the multi-partition approach for all the reasons already
> mentioned.

I used to...I found it tended to result in more administration load
later, though, because the automated installer's (or my own!) guesses
for partition size are rarely entirely adequate.  Then you end up
slapping in another disk, backing up and repartitioning, or
maintaining a symlink farm...

The default 512 MB root partition was always a particular pain point.
It's completely inadequate if you ever try to build a custom kernel
and want the option of falling back to the old one.  It makes
distribution upgrades nearly impossible.

Nowadays I tend to either use one big root or just root and home for
desktops.  (having a separate home directory *is* nice for upgrades,
sometimes, but again you gotta guess right...)  For servers I will
additionally split off /var, to limit the damage if logging runs amok.
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Re: One or Four?

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:10 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
> On 02/17/2012 15:55, Chuck Swiger wrote:
>> 
>> Yes.  It works as intended even when /tmp is part of a single root 
>> partition; although mounting /tmp as a RAM- or swap-based tmpfs filesystem 
>> might be better for many situations.
> 
> Sure it has its uses, but now you're jumping into new territory where the 
> installer has to either ask the user to create tmpfs or make the decision to 
> do it on its own.

That's right.  I don't advocate using tmpfs for /tmp under all circumstances, 
but it is a reasonable choice for some situations, and it would be nice if 
FreeBSD-9's shiny new installer provided am option to set that up.

> As has been stated, this is fine if sufficient RAM is available. Personally I 
> don't like using RAM for tmp.

OK.

>>> Making this world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops 
>>> and Servers alike.
>> 
>> You're welcome to your opinion.  However, I suspect you're expecting FreeBSD 
>> systems to always be partitioned and administered by knowledgeable BSD Unix 
>> sysadmins, and those are not always so readily available as one might assume.
> 
> I'm not sure why someone has to be knowledgeable to select a particular 
> partitioning scheme.

Um, because a novice user just going with the default partitioning scheme 
(whatever that might be) or guessing random values isn't likely to achieve 
better results than someone knowledgeable making an informed decision about how 
to partition a disk?

> Is it better for a novice to have one big / to fill up as opposed to a 
> separate /var or /tmp?

That doesn't have a single, simple answer.

It may be better to have a single root partition, for which they can notice and 
understand their disk usage by a single value, compared to having them need to 
understand df and multiple filesystems mounted as a tree, rather than separate 
devices (aka Windows disk letters).  :-(

>>> b. A nuisance
>>> 
>>> As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
>>> file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult 
>>> regardless of
>>> Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.
>> 
>> It would if /tmp was mounted on a disk partition, and if it also happened to 
>> be where space was being consumed.  /var/log and /home tend to be more 
>> likely locations in my experience, but YMMV.
> 
> Actually, in my experience I have huge problems with users misusing /tmp as a 
> holding spot for all manner of files. I like keeping /tmp separate and 
> smallish to discourage its use for everyday transfers. Those things belong in 
> a users home directory, not in /tmp.

It sounds like these users want some kind of shared folder with relatively open 
permissions, and I've seen plenty of small office / collaborative environments 
where such a thing would be of value.

>> However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using 
>> MacOS X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they 
>> sometimes do fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be 
>> able to recover from without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall 
>> having unusual issues in running a partition out of space under FreeBSD, 
>> either, or difficulty fixing things afterwards-- but such doesn't happen 
>> very often if you monitor your systems properly, and have time to respond to 
>> "low-space" conditions before they turn into "out of space" conditions.
> 
> Previously you said that knowledgeable unix admins aren't as common as might 
> be thought... now you're making the assumption that these same novice users 
> will monitor their systems properly for low-space conditions.

Oh, no-- I don't assume that most users will notice and fix a "low-space" 
condition beforehand-- I was speaking of what I do, although it hopefully also 
describes other managed environments.

It doesn't describe what end-user support folks [1] generally have to deal with.

> However this is all superfluous conversation if the installer gives each user 
> a variety of options. You can select your "one big partition" scheme or go 
> with multiple partitions depending on your preference, and from what I've 
> read so far, this seems to be not only a reasonable idea, but also one which 
> many people would prefer.

Having the FreeBSD installer provide a reasonable set of options which include 
the traditional FreeBSD partition layout and a single root partition would 
likely be better than the current state.

Regards,
-- 
-Chuck

[1] Apple Retail calls them "geniuses"

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RE: One or Four?



> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Da Rock
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 5:00 PM
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On 02/18/12 10:55, Da Rock wrote:
> > On 02/18/12 10:40, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> >> On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
>  However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks
>  using MacOS
>  X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they
>  sometimes do
>  fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able
>  to recover from
>  without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual
>  issues in running
>  a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty
>  fixing things
>  afterwards--
> >>> Recipe for disaster:
> >>>
> >>> 1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
> >>> 2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down
> >>> /etc/master.passwd
> >> Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very
> >> correlated to disk space, however.
> >>
> >> Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have
> >> made more sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use
> >> LDAP as the network user database, instead of pushing system password
> >> database changes via SUP or similar replication mechanism locally to
> >> individual hosts.
> >>
> >>> 3. A program fills "/"
> >>> 4. cron fires
> >>> 5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on
> >>> filesystem
> >>> 6. System can no longer be logged into
> >> #5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to
> >> /etc/pwd.db.tmp&  /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather
> >> than invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password
> >> database with something that might be broken.
> >>
> >> To be very specific, I would expect one to get:
> >>
> >> "/: write failed, filesystem is full
> >> pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"
> >>
> >>> 7. System is rebooted
> >>> 8. Can't log in (not even as root)
> >>> 9. Go into single-user mode
> >>> 10. No space to work in
> >>>
> >>> Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and
> >>> this is only
> >>> one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up
> >>> "/" to cause
> >>> major headaches.
> >>
> >> I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system
> >> in the past decade or more.  The closest match to the issue results
> >> in a failure of adduser(8) or pw(8) to add new users, but existing
> >> users continued to work fine.
> > These are edge cases that _do_ happen - Linux (heaven forbid!) is
> > reknown for the all /, and I've been unable to boot properly into it
> > with a full disk. I had to use a live disk to rescue it which took
> > hours thanks to the $%^&! lvm filesystem.
> >
> > Its just so easy to run a multi partition as opposed to an all /. And
> > how much does it cost/hurt to do it (especially given the inordinately
> > large hdd's these days)? Next to nix (pardon the pun :) ). The
> > reduction in problems for new users should be an incentive as well.
> >
> > As for how quickly a disk can fill - I'm an expert :) I can fill a
> > terabyte disk in a matter of hours with video and not notice. The
> > transfers can be tricky to coordinate seeing as the disk fills faster
> > than I can move the large files to another filesystem.
> >
> > And I haven't even mentioned some of the games that I'm sure a novice
> > desktop user will use...
> >
> > You don't have to necessarily 'hose' the system to render it unusable.
> > Just have some obscure program or service that requires something like
> > a temp file or the like to stop it from working, and make it difficult
> > to find whats wrong.
> I forgot to mention that the probable reason you haven't heard of any
> such problems on real FreeBSD _is_ because it doesn't use the all /, or
> a qualified sysadmin is watching over it.
> 

+1

And as ideal as it is to sit and hypothesize how great things might be in the
Desktop world if Desktop users are given the chance to use one big "/"
partition, I'm just terribly afraid (as you likewise point out) that the
decision to make this the default was short-sighted to say the least.
-- 
Devin

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RE: One or Four?



> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Da Rock
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:55 PM
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On 02/18/12 10:40, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> > On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> >>> However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using
> MacOS
> >>> X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they
> sometimes do
> >>> fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to
recover from
> >>> without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues
in
> running
> >>> a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing
things
> >>> afterwards--
> >> Recipe for disaster:
> >>
> >> 1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
> >> 2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down
> /etc/master.passwd
> > Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very
correlated to
> disk space, however.
> >
> > Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have made
> more sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use LDAP as the
> network user database, instead of pushing system password database changes
> via SUP or similar replication mechanism locally to individual hosts.
> >
> >> 3. A program fills "/"
> >> 4. cron fires
> >> 5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on
> filesystem
> >> 6. System can no longer be logged into
> > #5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to
> /etc/pwd.db.tmp&  /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather than
> invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password database with
> something that might be broken.
> 
> >
> > To be very specific, I would expect one to get:
> >
> > "/: write failed, filesystem is full
> > pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"
> >
> >> 7. System is rebooted
> >> 8. Can't log in (not even as root)
> >> 9. Go into single-user mode
> >> 10. No space to work in
> >>
> >> Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and this is
only
> >> one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up "/" to
> cause
> >> major headaches.
> >
> > I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system in the
past
> decade or more.  The closest match to the issue results in a failure of
adduser(8)
> or pw(8) to add new users, but existing users continued to work fine.
> These are edge cases that _do_ happen - Linux (heaven forbid!) is
> reknown for the all /, and I've been unable to boot properly into it
> with a full disk. I had to use a live disk to rescue it which took hours
> thanks to the $%^&! lvm filesystem.
> 
> Its just so easy to run a multi partition as opposed to an all /. And
> how much does it cost/hurt to do it (especially given the inordinately
> large hdd's these days)? Next to nix (pardon the pun :) ). The reduction
> in problems for new users should be an incentive as well.
> 

+1

I imagine an increased load on -questions@ for users that need extra
hand-holding when they fill their entire disks versus incidentally filling a
single partition. One requires instructions involving a live disc versus the
latter which involves dinking with a still-very-usable system. Time-to-recover
is inordinately skewed between the two situations, IMHO
-- 
Devin

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Re: One or Four?


On 02/18/12 10:55, Da Rock wrote:

On 02/18/12 10:40, Chuck Swiger wrote:

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks 
using MacOS
X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they 
sometimes do
fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able 
to recover from
without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual 
issues in running
a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty 
fixing things

afterwards--

Recipe for disaster:

1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down 
/etc/master.passwd
Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very 
correlated to disk space, however.


Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have 
made more sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use 
LDAP as the network user database, instead of pushing system password 
database changes via SUP or similar replication mechanism locally to 
individual hosts.



3. A program fills "/"
4. cron fires
5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on 
filesystem

6. System can no longer be logged into
#5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to 
/etc/pwd.db.tmp&  /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather 
than invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password 
database with something that might be broken.


To be very specific, I would expect one to get:

"/: write failed, filesystem is full
pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"


7. System is rebooted
8. Can't log in (not even as root)
9. Go into single-user mode
10. No space to work in

Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and 
this is only
one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up 
"/" to cause

major headaches.


I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system 
in the past decade or more.  The closest match to the issue results 
in a failure of adduser(8) or pw(8) to add new users, but existing 
users continued to work fine.
These are edge cases that _do_ happen - Linux (heaven forbid!) is 
reknown for the all /, and I've been unable to boot properly into it 
with a full disk. I had to use a live disk to rescue it which took 
hours thanks to the $%^&! lvm filesystem.


Its just so easy to run a multi partition as opposed to an all /. And 
how much does it cost/hurt to do it (especially given the inordinately 
large hdd's these days)? Next to nix (pardon the pun :) ). The 
reduction in problems for new users should be an incentive as well.


As for how quickly a disk can fill - I'm an expert :) I can fill a 
terabyte disk in a matter of hours with video and not notice. The 
transfers can be tricky to coordinate seeing as the disk fills faster 
than I can move the large files to another filesystem.


And I haven't even mentioned some of the games that I'm sure a novice 
desktop user will use...


You don't have to necessarily 'hose' the system to render it unusable. 
Just have some obscure program or service that requires something like 
a temp file or the like to stop it from working, and make it difficult 
to find whats wrong.
I forgot to mention that the probable reason you haven't heard of any 
such problems on real FreeBSD _is_ because it doesn't use the all /, or 
a qualified sysadmin is watching over it.

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Re: Adobe Linux Flash (Success)


On 02/18/12 10:48, sean wrote:

On 02/17/12 19:27, sean wrote:



Now when I run nspluginwrapper -v -a -i as a user I get the following,

Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Install plugin 
/usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin/libflashplayer.so

 ... already installed system-wide, skipping
Auto-install plugins from /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins
Looking for plugins in /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins

I noticed in the above information that it was looking for the flash 
plugin in the plugins directory under .mozilla.

There was no such directory.
I created the directory and ran nspluginwrapper again and flash is now 
listed and working.

It seems to flicker on occasions a bit but it is running.
Are there any tuning options that might be available to get rid of the 
occasional flicker?

I was just going to look into it further... glad you got it working.

The flicker seems to be a new 'feature' for flash these days - also 
available on linux :) I haven't discovered any fix/tune for it, but if 
you find one post back so we can all enjoy ;)

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Re: One or Four?


On 02/18/12 10:40, Chuck Swiger wrote:

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:

However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using MacOS
X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they sometimes do
fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to recover 
from
without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues in 
running
a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing things
afterwards--

Recipe for disaster:

1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down /etc/master.passwd

Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very 
correlated to disk space, however.

Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have made more 
sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use LDAP as the network 
user database, instead of pushing system password database changes via SUP or 
similar replication mechanism locally to individual hosts.


3. A program fills "/"
4. cron fires
5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on filesystem
6. System can no longer be logged into

#5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to 
/etc/pwd.db.tmp&  /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather than 
invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password database with 
something that might be broken.

To be very specific, I would expect one to get:

"/: write failed, filesystem is full
pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"


7. System is rebooted
8. Can't log in (not even as root)
9. Go into single-user mode
10. No space to work in

Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and this is only
one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up "/" to cause
major headaches.


I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system in the past 
decade or more.  The closest match to the issue results in a failure of 
adduser(8) or pw(8) to add new users, but existing users continued to work fine.
These are edge cases that _do_ happen - Linux (heaven forbid!) is 
reknown for the all /, and I've been unable to boot properly into it 
with a full disk. I had to use a live disk to rescue it which took hours 
thanks to the $%^&! lvm filesystem.


Its just so easy to run a multi partition as opposed to an all /. And 
how much does it cost/hurt to do it (especially given the inordinately 
large hdd's these days)? Next to nix (pardon the pun :) ). The reduction 
in problems for new users should be an incentive as well.


As for how quickly a disk can fill - I'm an expert :) I can fill a 
terabyte disk in a matter of hours with video and not notice. The 
transfers can be tricky to coordinate seeing as the disk fills faster 
than I can move the large files to another filesystem.


And I haven't even mentioned some of the games that I'm sure a novice 
desktop user will use...


You don't have to necessarily 'hose' the system to render it unusable. 
Just have some obscure program or service that requires something like a 
temp file or the like to stop it from working, and make it difficult to 
find whats wrong.

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RE: One or Four?



> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Swiger [mailto:cswi...@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:41 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: 'FreeBSD -'
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> >> However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using
> MacOS
> >> X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they
sometimes
> do
> >> fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to
recover from
> >> without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues in
> running
> >> a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing things
> >> afterwards--
> >
> > Recipe for disaster:
> >
> > 1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
> > 2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down /etc/master.passwd
> 
> Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very
correlated to
> disk space, however.
> 
> Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have made
> more sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use LDAP as the
> network user database, instead of pushing system password database changes
> via SUP or similar replication mechanism locally to individual hosts.
> 
> > 3. A program fills "/"
> > 4. cron fires
> > 5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on
> filesystem
> > 6. System can no longer be logged into
> 
> #5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to
> /etc/pwd.db.tmp & /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather than
> invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password database with
> something that might be broken.
> 

Ok, then this is a departure from versions of yester-year. Glad to know that a
temporary DB is built rather than rebuilding on-top of the existing DB (which
last I checked 4.11 still does).


> To be very specific, I would expect one to get:
> 
> "/: write failed, filesystem is full
> pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"
> 

Yeah, 4.11 wasn't so nice.


> > 7. System is rebooted
> > 8. Can't log in (not even as root)
> > 9. Go into single-user mode
> > 10. No space to work in
> >
> > Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and this is
only
> > one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up "/" to
cause
> > major headaches.
> 
> 
> I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system in the
past
> decade or more.

Only only needs to go back to 4.11 for this time-bomb (which still bites us at
least once every 6-12 months in production -- mind you we still employ about
3,000 4.x systems and are migrating to 8.x this year).
-- 
Devin

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Re: Adobe Linux Flash (Success)

2012-02-17 Thread sean


On 02/17/12 19:27, sean wrote:



Now when I run nspluginwrapper -v -a -i as a user I get the following,

Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Install plugin 
/usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin/libflashplayer.so

 ... already installed system-wide, skipping
Auto-install plugins from /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins
Looking for plugins in /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins

I noticed in the above information that it was looking for the flash 
plugin in the plugins directory under .mozilla.

There was no such directory.
I created the directory and ran nspluginwrapper again and flash is now 
listed and working.

It seems to flicker on occasions a bit but it is running.
Are there any tuning options that might be available to get rid of the 
occasional flicker?


Thanks all,
Sean
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Re: One or Four?

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
>> However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using MacOS
>> X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they 
>> sometimes do
>> fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to recover 
>> from
>> without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues in 
>> running
>> a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing things
>> afterwards--
> 
> Recipe for disaster:
> 
> 1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
> 2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down /etc/master.passwd

Yes, I agree that this is a recipe for disaster; the reasons not very 
correlated to disk space, however.

Even twenty years ago, handling this via YP/NIS or NetInfo would have made more 
sense, and nowadays folks would be far more likely to use LDAP as the network 
user database, instead of pushing system password database changes via SUP or 
similar replication mechanism locally to individual hosts.

> 3. A program fills "/"
> 4. cron fires
> 5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on filesystem
> 6. System can no longer be logged into

#5 does not imply #6: if pwd_mkdb can't build a temporary version to 
/etc/pwd.db.tmp & /etc/spwd.db.tmp, it will exit with an error rather than 
invoke rename(2) to replace the working version of the password database with 
something that might be broken.

To be very specific, I would expect one to get:

"/: write failed, filesystem is full
pwd_mkdb: /etc/pwd.db to /etc/pwd.db.tmp: No space left on device"

> 7. System is rebooted
> 8. Can't log in (not even as root)
> 9. Go into single-user mode
> 10. No space to work in
> 
> Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and this is 
> only
> one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up "/" to 
> cause
> major headaches.

I've never heard of such a thing happening to a real FreeBSD system in the past 
decade or more.  The closest match to the issue results in a failure of 
adduser(8) or pw(8) to add new users, but existing users continued to work fine.

Regards,
-- 
-Chuck

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Re: Adobe Linux Flash

2012-02-17 Thread sean

Well I deleted the symlinks, swfdec, and stepped through the 
instructions in the handbook again.


Now when I run nspluginwrapper -v -a -i as a user I get the following,

Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Install plugin /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin/libflashplayer.so
 ... already installed system-wide, skipping
Auto-install plugins from /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins
Looking for plugins in /home/sean/.mozilla/plugins

As root I get,
Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
Auto-install plugins from /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Looking for plugins in /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin
Install plugin /usr/local/lib/npapi/linux-f10-flashplugin/libflashplayer.so
  into /usr/local/lib/browser_plugins/npwrapper.libflashplayer.so
Auto-install plugins from /root/.mozilla/plugins
Looking for plugins in /root/.mozilla/plugins

The directory
/usr/local/lib/browser_plugins
tardis# ls -al
total 164
drwxr-xr-x   3 root  wheel 512 Feb 17 19:17 .
drwxr-xr-x  40 root  wheel   31744 Feb 17 18:58 ..
-rwxr-xr-x   1 root  wheel  125728 Feb 17 19:17 npwrapper.libflashplayer.so
drwxr-xr-x   7 root  wheel 512 Feb 16 07:30 symlinks

I tried with and without the symlink the instructions specified and it 
made no difference, the linux flash plugin does not appear.


I am open to any ideas.
Thanks for all the help in either case.

Sean


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RE: swap space

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Robison, Dave
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 4:11 PM
> To: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: swap space
> 
> On 02/17/2012 15:58, Chuck Swiger wrote:
> > On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Pazarena wrote:
> >> is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?
> >>
> >> A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.
> > You're looking for "swapinfo"
> >
> > Regards,
> 
> Chuck beat me to it.
> 
> "swapinfo" or top are the two ways I normally check.
> 

I'm digging the fact that it now accepts "-h" to produce human-readable sizes.

swapinfo didn't always support "-h"
-- 
Devin

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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Chris Hill


On Fri, 17 Feb 2012, Polytropon wrote:


Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
this:

Partition scheme


[ ] all in one + swap
Create one partition containing all subtrees
plus one swap partition.

[ ] separate partitioning + swap
Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
partitions plus one swap partition.

[ ] user-defined
Make your own partitioning selection manually.

Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
reasonable.


I like it. This, or something very similar, seems to me like the best 
way to go.


I am not a professional sysadmin, but have been using FreeBSD since 
2.2.6. FWIW, I prefer the multi-partition approach for all the reasons 
already mentioned.



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RE: One or Four?

> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Swiger [mailto:cswi...@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:56 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: FreeBSD -
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> 

[snip]

> > I'd argue that there should never be a single-"/" unless you are prepared to
> > deal with a truly 100%-full filesystem problem (especially considering that
> > Desktop users whom select the default-everything are often not skilled
enough
> to
> > deal with that situation). If someone truly wants a single "/" and nothing
else,
> > there's manual partitioning (which should prove pretty easy in the event
that
> > you're only creating one partition and nothing else).
> 
> 
> More sophisticated partition schemes certainly can have value in terms of
better
> isolation from unexpected logfile growth (etc), a separation of OS-provided
files
> from user content, a separation of stuff which doesn't change often versus
stuff
> that does, and so forth.
> 
> However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using MacOS
> X don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they sometimes
do
> fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to recover
from
> without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues in
running
> a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing things
> afterwards--

Recipe for disaster:

1. You have a cron-job that pulls down /etc/master.passwd daily
2. Your cron-job also runs pwd_mkdb after "SUP"ing down /etc/master.passwd
3. A program fills "/"
4. cron fires
5. pwd_mkdb can't generate databases because not enough room on filesystem
6. System can no longer be logged into
7. System is rebooted
8. Can't log in (not even as root)
9. Go into single-user mode
10. No space to work in

Sure... you can call it an "edge-case," but it's pretty common and this is only
one of a myriad of ways we can reproduce the problem of filling-up "/" to cause
major headaches.

For example, let's say you don't have a cron-job that runs pwd_mkdb etc. Let's
say you're just blissfully unaware of your disk space (or lack thereof) and you
execute "vipw". Exiting the program after making changes invokes pwd_mkdb and if
there isn't enough disk space to accommodate the database, you're hosed.
-- 
Devin

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Re: swap space


On 02/17/2012 15:58, Chuck Swiger wrote:

On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Pazarena wrote:

is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?

A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.

You're looking for "swapinfo"

Regards,


Chuck beat me to it.

"swapinfo" or top are the two ways I normally check.



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Re: One or Four?

On 02/17/2012 15:55, Chuck Swiger wrote:

Yes. It works as intended even when /tmp is part of a single root partition;
although mounting /tmp as a RAM- or swap-based tmpfs filesystem might be better
for many situations.

Sure it has its uses, but now you're jumping into new territory where
the installer has to either ask the user to create tmpfs or make the
decision to do it on its own. As has been stated, this is fine if
sufficient RAM is available. Personally I don't like using RAM for tmp.

Making this world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops and
Servers alike.

You're welcome to your opinion. However, I suspect you're expecting FreeBSD
systems to always be partitioned and administered by knowledgeable BSD Unix
sysadmins, and those are not always so readily available as one might assume.

I'm not sure why someone has to be knowledgeable to select a particular
partitioning scheme. Is it better for a novice to have one big / to fill
up as opposed to a separate /var or /tmp?

b. A nuisance

As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult regardless of
Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.

It would if /tmp was mounted on a disk partition, and if it also happened to be
where space was being consumed. /var/log and /home tend to be more likely
locations in my experience, but YMMV.

Actually, in my experience I have huge problems with users misusing /tmp
as a holding spot for all manner of files. I like keeping /tmp separate
and smallish to discourage its use for everyday transfers. Those things
belong in a users home directory, not in /tmp.

However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using MacOS X don't have problems
using a single root partition, and while they sometimes do fill up their disks, that's a situation
which they should be able to recover from without needing expert assistance. I don't recall having
unusual issues in running a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing
things afterwards-- but such doesn't happen very often if you monitor your systems properly, and
have time to respond to "low-space" conditions before they turn into "out of
space" conditions.

Regards,

Previously you said that knowledgeable unix admins aren't as common as
might be thought... now you're making the assumption that these same
novice users will monitor their systems properly for low-space
conditions. In a perfect world we all have snmp running properly or some
other way to notify us of impending doom. In the real world these things
always seem to sneak up and bite us on the behind.

However this is all superfluous conversation if the installer gives each
user a variety of options. You can select your "one big partition"
scheme or go with multiple partitions depending on your preference, and
from what I've read so far, this seems to be not only a reasonable idea,
but also one which many people would prefer.

Dave

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Re: swap space

2012-02-17 Thread Jonathan Vomacka

On Feb 17, 2012 6:55 PM, "Jim Pazarena"  wrote:
>
> is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?
>
> A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.
>
> This would be on a live production server.
> Thanks.
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Top or vmstat
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RE: One or Four?

> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Swiger [mailto:cswi...@mac.com]
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 3:56 PM
> To: Devin Teske
> Cc: FreeBSD -
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> > a. A security issue
> >
> > /tmp is by-default out-of-the-box world-writable (perms 1777).
> 
> Yes.  It works as intended even when /tmp is part of a single root partition;
> although mounting /tmp as a RAM- or swap-based tmpfs filesystem might be
> better for many situations.
> 
> > Making this world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops
and
> Servers alike.
> 
> You're welcome to your opinion.  However, I suspect you're expecting FreeBSD
> systems to always be partitioned and administered by knowledgeable BSD Unix
> sysadmins, and those are not always so readily available as one might assume.
> 
> > b. A nuisance
> >
> > As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
> > file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult regardless
of
> > Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.
> 
> It would if /tmp was mounted on a disk partition, and if it also happened to
be
> where space was being consumed.

Actually, what I meant to say was:

If you have only "single-/" and your filesystem becomes full, having a separate
"/tmp" on the same physical medium can alleviate the issue of "having no space
to work" because you can mount "/tmp" (as the odds of both "/" and "/tmp"
filling up simultaneously and both becoming 100%-full is far-less likely to
occur than having a single partition fill up to max all). Thus, having a "/ +
/tmp" is infinitely wiser than "single-/ without /tmp (or any partition for that
matter)". The argument not necessarily being in favor of "/tmp", but being
dis-favorable against any scheme that involves only one partition which can
blindly be filled and leave the user (at least in a single-disk scenario) no
free space to do anything once-full.

This is somewhat different than what you were referring to, which is that having
"/tmp" simply for the sake of not allowing others to fill your system. Rather,
I'm arguing that "/tmp" also saves you by giving you somewhere to work if/when
you *DO* fill your "/".

>  /var/log and /home tend to be more likely
> locations in my experience, but YMMV.

-- 
Devin

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Re: DNS - slaving the root zone

2012-02-17 Thread Doug Barton

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 02/17/2012 05:41, Damien Fleuriot wrote:
> Hello list, Jeremy, Doug,
> 
> 
> We're currently having a discussion on the FRnOG mailing list regarding
> the laughable announcement of an attack on the DNS root servers by
> Anonymous.

Given their success at their previous endeavors, I wouldn't call it
"laughable." Even if they are unsuccessful at taking down all of the
root servers, if *your* particular part of the Internet gets knocked
down, that's pretty important to you, right?

OTOH, I think that actually doing what they state they want to do will
be very difficult, and not likely to produce the results that they
believe it will. However, unlike some in the DNS/Security communities I
do not intend to outline the deficiencies in their plan, lest they take
advantage of the opportunity to improve it. :)

> I've kinda hijacked the thread to ask whether people slave the root zone
> or not, and why if not.

Well there is no secret that I (and many others) think it's a good idea.

> Active poster, renowned blogger and AFNIC worker Stephane Bortzmeyer
> pointed out that it might not be a good idea and submitted the following
> discussion from 2007 as reference:
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-August/075895.html

I know Stephane professionally, and I respect his opinion about many
topics. On this topic we disagree.

> Do you still believe slaving the root zone to be a bad idea ?

I never thought it was a bad idea. I've been suggesting that people do
it for years. :)

To clarify, almost universally the opposition to the idea centers around
the problems of users who enable this method, and then don't notice if
something changes/breaks, resulting in a stale zone (or zones, depending
on what you choose to slave). I have always acknowledged that this is a
valid concern, just not one that I think overwhelms the virtues of doing
the slaving in the first place.

The method currently in comments in /etc/namedb/named.conf suggests
servers generously provided by ICANN that are dedicated to allowing AXFR
of various infrastructure zones. (Note, ICANN does not necessarily
endorse the idea of slaving these zones for resolvers, but I do have
their permission to include these servers in our named.conf.) That
alleviates one of the other criticisms of slaving these zones, as it
presents no load on the actual root servers at all.

So in short, this is an excellent idea, I've been doing it/recommending
it for years, and assuming you have the knowledge/ability to keep your
resolvers up to date (and/or you're tracking our named.conf where I do
it for you) then it's totally safe to do.

hth,

Doug

- -- 

It's always a long day; 86400 doesn't fit into a short.

Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS.
Yours for the right price.  :)  http://SupersetSolutions.com/

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Re: swap space

On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:54 PM, Jim Pazarena wrote:
> is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?
> 
> A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.

You're looking for "swapinfo"

Regards,
-- 
-Chuck

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Re: swap space

2012-02-17 Thread Mike Tancsa

On 2/17/2012 6:54 PM, Jim Pazarena wrote:
> is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?
> 

% pstat -T
438/12328 files
98M/10240M swap space

---Mike

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Re: One or Four?

On Feb 17, 2012, at 3:11 PM, Devin Teske wrote:
> a. A security issue
> 
> /tmp is by-default out-of-the-box world-writable (perms 1777).

Yes.  It works as intended even when /tmp is part of a single root partition; 
although mounting /tmp as a RAM- or swap-based tmpfs filesystem might be better 
for many situations.

> Making this world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops 
> and Servers alike.

You're welcome to your opinion.  However, I suspect you're expecting FreeBSD 
systems to always be partitioned and administered by knowledgeable BSD Unix 
sysadmins, and those are not always so readily available as one might assume.

> b. A nuisance
> 
> As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
> file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult regardless 
> of
> Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.

It would if /tmp was mounted on a disk partition, and if it also happened to be 
where space was being consumed.  /var/log and /home tend to be more likely 
locations in my experience, but YMMV.

> c. A performance issue
> 
> I'm surprised nobody has pointed out the physical performance limitations of
> rotating disks with respect to physical location of partitions on the spindle.
> Granted, seek times are light years beyond what they used to be, but 
> allocating
> smaller "swap" and "tmp" partitions close to the center of the spindle is a
> performance-enhancing setup just as much as it is for protecting against
> file-system-full problems (security events included).

I suggest you do some measurements; starting with diskinfo -t, or something 
like HDTach for Windows:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HD_Tach_Hitachi_HTS541616J9S_SB40-screenshot.png

It's very typical for the outermost tracks of a disk drive to be up to twice as 
fast as the innermost tracks due to the greater amount of data available per 
cylinder on the outer tracks.  These outer tracks are most often given LBA 0, 
and the drive writes data inwards with higher LBA #'s.

[ If performance is especially critical, folks will partition the disks so that 
they only use the outermost third or so of the disk, to maximize read/write 
performance and minimize seeking; this is known as "short stroking" a disk... ]

> I'd argue that there should never be a single-"/" unless you are prepared to
> deal with a truly 100%-full filesystem problem (especially considering that
> Desktop users whom select the default-everything are often not skilled enough 
> to
> deal with that situation). If someone truly wants a single "/" and nothing 
> else,
> there's manual partitioning (which should prove pretty easy in the event that
> you're only creating one partition and nothing else).

More sophisticated partition schemes certainly can have value in terms of 
better isolation from unexpected logfile growth (etc), a separation of 
OS-provided files from user content, a separation of stuff which doesn't change 
often versus stuff that does, and so forth.

However, for whatever reasons, the overwhelming majority of folks using MacOS X 
don't have problems using a single root partition, and while they sometimes do 
fill up their disks, that's a situation which they should be able to recover 
from without needing expert assistance.  I don't recall having unusual issues 
in running a partition out of space under FreeBSD, either, or difficulty fixing 
things afterwards-- but such doesn't happen very often if you monitor your 
systems properly, and have time to respond to "low-space" conditions before 
they turn into "out of space" conditions.

Regards,
-- 
-Chuck

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swap space

2012-02-17 Thread Jim Pazarena


is there a command which can show the size of the hard drive swap?

A "df" seems to avoid the swap area.

This would be on a live production server.
Thanks.
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Re: One or Four?


On 02/18/12 09:24, Robison, Dave wrote:

On 02/17/2012 15:22, Julian H. Stacey wrote:




Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

No. Bad idea. Not on questions@, the list of the least clued up,
the list raw beginners are referred to subscribe to.  At least get
a majority on hackers@ or current@ or arch@.  Some answers one sees
on questions@ are very good, but some are ... the other way.

So not everyone gets to vote? What happened to democracy :)
Actually, the discussion and ideas so far have been very interesting 
and helpful.


Keep it coming.

It has been rather interesting to find the limits of the extreme.

The performance aspects are a very good point, one of the original 
reasons why the layout was chosen to begin with. Not so much an issue 
now... but still valid.

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Re: One or Four?


On 02/17/2012 15:22, Julian H. Stacey wrote:




Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

No. Bad idea. Not on questions@, the list of the least clued up,
the list raw beginners are referred to subscribe to.  At least get
a majority on hackers@ or current@ or arch@.  Some answers one sees
on questions@ are very good, but some are ... the other way.


Cheers,
Julian


Actually, the discussion and ideas so far have been very interesting and 
helpful.


Keep it coming.

Dave


--
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FIS Banking Solutions
510/621-2089 (w)
530/518-5194 (c)
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Re: One or Four?

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 15:11:52 -0800, Devin Teske wrote:
> 
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> > questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Jerry McAllister
> > Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:53 PM
> > To: Polytropon
> > Cc: david.robi...@fisglobal.com; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> > Subject: Re: One or Four?
> > 
> > >
> > > > Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.
> > >
> > > Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
> > > this:
> > >
> > >   Partition scheme
> > >   
> > >
> > >   [ ] all in one + swap
> > >   Create one partition containing all subtrees
> > >   plus one swap partition.
> > >
> > >   [ ] separate partitioning + swap
> > >   Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
> > >   partitions plus one swap partition.
> > >
> > >   [ ] user-defined
> > >   Make your own partitioning selection manually.
> > >
> > > Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
> > > reasonable.
> > >
> > 
> > Yes.  Yes.   This is the way to go.

Let me change the caption of the second choice to this:

[ ] traditionally separated partitioning + swap

Because it's the installer's tradition to put /home into /usr.

> I'd agree, but I'd like to envision a modular approach where multiple schemes
> can be maintained.
> 
> E.g. a menu containing...
> 
> "Scheme 1: / + swap + /tmp"
> "Scheme 2: / + swap + /tmp + /var"
> "Scheme 3: / + swap + /tmp + /var + /usr"
> "Scheme 4: / + swap + /tmp + /var + /usr + /home"

I'm missing scheme 5 with /opt. :-)

According to combinatoric possibilities, / + swap + /tmp + /usr
is also missing. It would be no good idea (in my opinion) to
present the user a list of _all_ possible combinations just in
case he would like to have one of them. My idea to use three
options ("minimal", "traditional", user-defined) would be fully
sufficient, as all those who have no idea what they do would
use the first choice, those who intendedly want the traditional
approach would use the second choice, and all those not wanting
one of those would be clever enough to deal with manually
defining their own scheme.

> I'm actually thinking that "not having a separate /tmp" is:
> 
> a. A security issue
> 
> /tmp is by-default out-of-the-box world-writable (perms 1777). Making this
> world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops and Servers
> alike.

Fully agree. I pointed out why this can be dangerous. Having
/tmp in memory is good (and secure!) if it's possible (note:
enough RAM needed), but not an option on systems low on RAM.

This kind of possible fine tuning partition-wise (soft updates,
journaling, quota, dump, ro, noexec, noatime etc.) doesn't
typically take place on average desktops, but there may be
cases where you need to do that.

> b. A nuisance
> 
> As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
> file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult regardless 
> of
> Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.

I don't think the separation "desktop vs. server" serves well
here. It's not about what kind of machine (or form factor) is
used, but the actual _employment_ of the machine, the intended
way of using it is. Note that there are also mixed forms, e. g.
a home desktop that provides some server functionalities. That's
why I think making a selection for partitioning schemes should
take SCHEMES into mind, not "server or desktop".

> c. A performance issue
> 
> I'm surprised nobody has pointed out the physical performance limitations of
> rotating disks with respect to physical location of partitions on the spindle.
> Granted, seek times are light years beyond what they used to be, but 
> allocating
> smaller "swap" and "tmp" partitions close to the center of the spindle is a
> performance-enhancing setup just as much as it is for protecting against
> file-system-full problems (security events included).

As I said, sometimes you need to squeeze every bit of performance
out of a machine. Fiddling with the location of certain functional
pieces of the OS _on the disk_ can be a big help here.

> I'd argue that there should never be a single-"/" unless you are prepared to
> deal with a truly 100%-full filesystem problem (especially considering that
> Desktop users whom select the default-everything are often not skilled enough 
> to
> deal with that situation). If someone truly wants a single "/" and nothing 
> else,
> there's manual partitioning (which should prove pretty easy in the event that
> you're only creating one partition and nothing else).

Yes, that's also possible, but I think having it as a option
to be checked is what especially novice users would want. They
would select the first (default) choice anyway without reading,
so it might be a chance to learn. :-)

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ..

Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Julian H. Stacey

> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
> swap.

I've been doing Unix 30+ years, so there's a tendency to respond
"Multiple", 'cos seeing a single 1 partition on a system normaly
meant it had been set up by someone clueless or lazy.  Though not
always, as there could very occasionaly be good reason for it.  ...
& ZFS now muddies the water.  However whichever way ...


> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

No. Bad idea. Not on questions@, the list of the least clued up,
the list raw beginners are referred to subscribe to.  At least get
a majority on hackers@ or current@ or arch@.  Some answers one sees
on questions@ are very good, but some are ... the other way.


Cheers,
Julian
-- 
Julian Stacey, BSD Unix Linux C Sys Eng Consultants Munich http://berklix.com
 Reply below not above, cumulative like a play script, & indent with "> ".
 Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable.
Mail from @yahoo dumped @berklix.  http://berklix.org/yahoo/
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RE: One or Four?



> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Jerry McAllister
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:53 PM
> To: Polytropon
> Cc: david.robi...@fisglobal.com; freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> >
> > > Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.
> >
> > Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
> > this:
> >
> > Partition scheme
> > 
> >
> > [ ] all in one + swap
> > Create one partition containing all subtrees
> > plus one swap partition.
> >
> > [ ] separate partitioning + swap
> > Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
> > partitions plus one swap partition.
> >
> > [ ] user-defined
> > Make your own partitioning selection manually.
> >
> > Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
> > reasonable.
> >
> 
> Yes.  Yes.   This is the way to go.
> 

I'd agree, but I'd like to envision a modular approach where multiple schemes
can be maintained.

E.g. a menu containing...

"Scheme 1: / + swap + /tmp"
"Scheme 2: / + swap + /tmp + /var"
"Scheme 3: / + swap + /tmp + /var + /usr"
"Scheme 4: / + swap + /tmp + /var + /usr + /home"

NOTE: See what I did there? There is no option for "/ ", explanation below.

I'm actually thinking that "not having a separate /tmp" is:

a. A security issue

/tmp is by-default out-of-the-box world-writable (perms 1777). Making this
world-writable bucket part of "/" seems silly both for Desktops and Servers
alike.

b. A nuisance

As "Da Rock" points out, ... recovering your system from a
file-system-full-event when using "single-/" is just as difficult regardless of
Desktop versus Server. Having "/tmp" alleviates the difficulty.


c. A performance issue

I'm surprised nobody has pointed out the physical performance limitations of
rotating disks with respect to physical location of partitions on the spindle.
Granted, seek times are light years beyond what they used to be, but allocating
smaller "swap" and "tmp" partitions close to the center of the spindle is a
performance-enhancing setup just as much as it is for protecting against
file-system-full problems (security events included).

===

I'd argue that there should never be a single-"/" unless you are prepared to
deal with a truly 100%-full filesystem problem (especially considering that
Desktop users whom select the default-everything are often not skilled enough to
deal with that situation). If someone truly wants a single "/" and nothing else,
there's manual partitioning (which should prove pretty easy in the event that
you're only creating one partition and nothing else).
-- 
Devin

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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Douglas Carmichael

I like this because it gives the user a choice, and it clearly lays out the 
choices based on partition schemes instead of a less-specific 'machine use' 
choice.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:46 PM, Polytropon  wrote:

> Four? There should be five! :-)
> 
> Read on to find out why.
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:05:23 -0800, Robison, Dave wrote:
>> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
>> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
>> swap.
> 
> In my case, preference depends on use. When I'm unable to
> predict how partition occupation will develop, going with
> one / partition is a good approach. It can also be useful
> for cases like home desktops.
> 
> Other cases, like dedicated servers or systems that use
> more than one physical disk (e. g. one system disk, one
> home disk) the approach of using more than one partition
> is welcome.
> 
> I'd like to mention that using different partitions for
> a logical separation of mechanisms and functionalities
> can be a _big_ help in worst case (which you'll hopefully
> never will encounter, but be prepared). For example, if
> you have file system trouble with the /home partition,
> you can bring the system up in a limited state (SUM),
> make the partition "ro" and get the data. You can then
> boot the system into the normal state (MUM) with using
> the copy you made, leaving the original /home partition
> unmounted and untouched. In case of data recovery and
> forensic analysis this can be your chance to get your
> data back.
> 
> 
> 
>> We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as 
>> one wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We 
>> want to know if people would prefer the older style default with four 
>> partitions and swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire 
>> Disk".
> 
> Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
> with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
> default style for separated partitions include:
> 
>/
>swap
>/tmp
>/var
>/usr
>/home
> 
> In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
> with intendedly limited sizes.
> 
> You can see that all user data is kept independently from
> the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
> a separate "home disk" if needed.
> 
> What's the reason for this? Limited partitions are often
> considered a problem, but they can be a system's life saver.
> Just imagine you have all functional parts of the system in
> one big / tree, let's also say /tmp is writable for users
> (and it's not a memory file system); now a maliciously acting
> user or program could fill /tmp with lots of data, occupying
> the full disk. Soon, /var/log cannot be written anymore, and
> also other processes that need to write something may get
> into trouble. If /tmp is a separate partition, only /tmp can
> get "out of disk space", with /var being fully untouched.
> 
> Also keep in mind that some tools like to operate on partition
> level, such as dump (and restore). System tools like quota can
> also be used on a partition level. As I mentioned before, being
> able to mount a partition read-only can be helpful sometimes,
> same goes for other mount options, such as noexec or noatime.
> When dealing with this low level stuff is neccessary (e. g. on
> embedded systems or systems that are low on resources where you
> need to squeeze every bit of performance by fine tuning), having
> individual partitions can be a big help.
> 
> 
> 
>> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.
> 
> Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
> this:
> 
>Partition scheme
>
> 
>[ ] all in one + swap
>Create one partition containing all subtrees
>plus one swap partition.
> 
>[ ] separate partitioning + swap
>Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
>partitions plus one swap partition.
> 
>[ ] user-defined
>Make your own partitioning selection manually.
> 
> Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
> reasonable.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
> ___
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Re: One or Four?


On 02/18/12 08:40, Maxim Khitrov wrote:

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Robison, Dave
  wrote:

Hiya,

A question has arisen with the implementation of bsdinstall in 9.x as
opposed to sysinstall in 8.x and previous versions of FreeBSD.

It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap as
such:

/
/tmp
/var
/usr
swap

The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which
creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a single
"/" partition as such:

/
swap

We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default
with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and
swap.

This is not a discussion of MBR vs GPT. The default moving forward from 9.x
will be to use GPT.

We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as one
wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We want to
know if people would prefer the older style default with four partitions and
swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire Disk".

Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

/ and /usr should be merged together, /var should stay separate, and
/tmp should be tmpfs :)

At least that's my preferred server configuration starting with 9.0. I
see no benefits in keeping / and /usr separate. A desktop can have
/var on the same file system as well, but servers should always
isolate it.

Just a few days ago, a misbehaving php script filled-up my entire /var
partition when it got into an endless loop. I've since realized the
value of blocking repeated error log messages in php configuration,
but keeping /var away from the rest was a good safety net.
I don't see how a server and desktop should be handled differently, in 
fact a desktop could be more disastrous than a server so the separate 
partitions have saved asses many times.


/tmp should be tmpfs, yes; but / and /usr should be separate still 
(c'mon! It's only 1G; why quibble?) because desktop users are not always 
as 'diligent' as they should be with space, or something else can occur 
to fill it up. If it is full, then you can't put a fix in /root/, edit 
fstab, rc.conf, syslog.conf, anything. There are serious consequences to 
a full file system that can render the system useless.


A server may be mission critical, production, whatever; but a desktop 
user doesn't want too much hassle to restore the system either, 
especially on a laptop. They certainly don't want to blow the system 
away and start again for something that silly (dramatic and over the 
top, I know, but a new user may do just that if they don't know how to 
fix it quickly without difficulty). The cost of the original layout was 
small, and the benefit was huge, I've still set all my systems this way 
(desktop/server).


If you are going to change back to the old behaviour don't discriminate.

And on that note: I have my hand up and waving wildly :)
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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Douglas Carmichael

I would prefer having the option of four partitions for fault tolerance reasons 
if needed.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 17, 2012, at 4:35 PM, Devin Teske  wrote:

> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
>> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Swiger
>> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:18 PM
>> To: david.robi...@fisglobal.com
>> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
>> Subject: Re: One or Four?
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
>>> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default
> with 4
>> partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and swap.
>> 
>> For a user/desktop machine, I prefer one root partition.  For other roles 
>> like
> a
>> server, I prefer multiple partitions which have been sized for the intended
> usage.
>> 
> 
> Then does the question ultimately become...
> 
> "Shall we then have two algorithms and ask the user whether they are 
> installing
> for the desktop versus server?"
> 
> If that's the case, then I think this is something I could personally live 
> with
> (as it then becomes possible to obtain the old layout of 4 partitions with
> auto-calculated sizes ala Colin Percival's last sizing algorithm committed in
> version 1.149 of src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/label.c made pre-SVN 6 years 6 months
> ago).
> 
> See
> http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/Attic/label.c?rev=
> 1.149;content-type=text%2Fx-cvsweb-markup
> 
> The above link describes the partition scheme that I and colleagues seek-most 
> to
> return to FreeBSD 9.x and higher.
> 
> I argue that Colin's algorithm is still useful for servers and is still the
> preferred method of allocation for servers and thus should remain an option,
> even if we don't change the [new] default back to the above linked-to scheme.
> -- 
> Devin
> 
> 
> _
> The information contained in this message is proprietary and/or confidential. 
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> copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message in any manner; 
> and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please be aware that 
> any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving and review by 
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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Jerry McAllister

> 
> > Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.
> 
> Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
> this:
> 
>   Partition scheme
>   
> 
>   [ ] all in one + swap
>   Create one partition containing all subtrees
>   plus one swap partition.
> 
>   [ ] separate partitioning + swap
>   Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
>   partitions plus one swap partition.
> 
>   [ ] user-defined
>   Make your own partitioning selection manually.
> 
> Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
> reasonable.
> 

Yes.  Yes.   This is the way to go.

jerry


> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Jerry McAllister

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 02:05:23PM -0800, Robison, Dave wrote:

> Hiya,
> 
> A question has arisen with the implementation of bsdinstall in 9.x as 
> opposed to sysinstall in 8.x and previous versions of FreeBSD.
> 
> It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap 
> as such:
> 
> /
> /tmp
> /var
> /usr
> swap
> 
> The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which 
> creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a 
> single "/" partition as such:
> 
> /
> swap
> 
> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
> swap.

I much prefer to have the choice to create partitions as I need.
My typical default is:

  / 
  /tmp
  /usr
  /var
  /homeor some other name such as /work
  swap

That looks like 5 plus swap to me.

I also want to decide the size of partitions.
I have never found the default sizes to be servicable or adequate.

Having said this, I occasionally have created servers with 
just root and swap.   It depends on circumstances and need
and I hope not to lose the option to choose or to have that 
option require some complicated and arcane/hidden procedure 
to choose other than the default.

I have never had problems with getting disks built, newfs-ed 
and mounted using the Sysinstall controlled stuff.  There are 
other things that Sysinstall needed, but choosing/creating 
partitions was not a problem.

I understand that going to GPT means some changes, but I am
sure that it should be able to create partitions of any size 
with probably a larger range of identifiers.  Since my new 
machines have not arrived yet (expecting soon), I haven't
explored the magic of GPT and am still rather foggy on where
it fits in the overall picture.  I am looking forward to get it
insinuated in to my thick head soon.

BSDinstall control of partitioning should just be adding features 
and capacity and not removing any options (except if there are 
some that are actually obsolete).  Having said that, upgrading 
the language and the way options and sizes are specified is fine 
with me as long as it is all there, available and clearly labeled 
and documented.

Thanks for asking,

jerry

> 
> This is not a discussion of MBR vs GPT. The default moving forward from 
> 9.x will be to use GPT.
> 
> We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as 
> one wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We 
> want to know if people would prefer the older style default with four 
> partitions and swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire 
> Disk".
> 
> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Dave
> 
> -- 
> Dave Robison
> Sales Solution Architect II
> FIS Banking Solutions
> 510/621-2089 (w)
> 530/518-5194 (c)
> 510/621-2020 (f)
> da...@vicor.com
> david.robi...@fisglobal.com
> 
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> confidential. If you are not the intended recipient, please: (i) delete the 
> message and all copies; (ii) do not disclose, distribute or use the message 
> in any manner; and (iii) notify the sender immediately. In addition, please 
> be aware that any message addressed to our domain is subject to archiving 
> and review by persons other than the intended recipient. Thank you.
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Re: One or Four?

Four? There should be five! :-)

Read on to find out why.

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:05:23 -0800, Robison, Dave wrote:
> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
> swap.

In my case, preference depends on use. When I'm unable to
predict how partition occupation will develop, going with
one / partition is a good approach. It can also be useful
for cases like home desktops.

Other cases, like dedicated servers or systems that use
more than one physical disk (e. g. one system disk, one
home disk) the approach of using more than one partition
is welcome.

I'd like to mention that using different partitions for
a logical separation of mechanisms and functionalities
can be a _big_ help in worst case (which you'll hopefully
never will encounter, but be prepared). For example, if
you have file system trouble with the /home partition,
you can bring the system up in a limited state (SUM),
make the partition "ro" and get the data. You can then
boot the system into the normal state (MUM) with using
the copy you made, leaving the original /home partition
unmounted and untouched. In case of data recovery and
forensic analysis this can be your chance to get your
data back.

> We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as 
> one wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We 
> want to know if people would prefer the older style default with four 
> partitions and swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire 
> Disk".

Well, to be honest, I never liked the "old style" default
with /home being part of /usr. As I mentioned before, _my_
default style for separated partitions include:

/
swap
/tmp
/var
/usr
/home

In special cases, add /opt or /scratch as separate partitions
with intendedly limited sizes.

You can see that all user data is kept independently from
the rest of the system. It can easily be switched over to
a separate "home disk" if needed.

What's the reason for this? Limited partitions are often
considered a problem, but they can be a system's life saver.
Just imagine you have all functional parts of the system in
one big / tree, let's also say /tmp is writable for users
(and it's not a memory file system); now a maliciously acting
user or program could fill /tmp with lots of data, occupying
the full disk. Soon, /var/log cannot be written anymore, and
also other processes that need to write something may get
into trouble. If /tmp is a separate partition, only /tmp can
get "out of disk space", with /var being fully untouched.

Also keep in mind that some tools like to operate on partition
level, such as dump (and restore). System tools like quota can
also be used on a partition level. As I mentioned before, being
able to mount a partition read-only can be helpful sometimes,
same goes for other mount options, such as noexec or noatime.
When dealing with this low level stuff is neccessary (e. g. on
embedded systems or systems that are low on resources where you
need to squeeze every bit of performance by fine tuning), having
individual partitions can be a big help.

> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

Why not add a selection to the installer, something like
this:

Partition scheme

[ ] all in one + swap
Create one partition containing all subtrees
plus one swap partition.

[ ] separate partitioning + swap
Create /, /var, /tmp and /usr (including home)
partitions plus one swap partition.

[ ] user-defined
Make your own partitioning selection manually.

Of course, the default SIZES for second choice should be
reasonable.

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: One or Four?

2012-02-17 Thread Maxim Khitrov

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 5:05 PM, Robison, Dave
 wrote:
> Hiya,
>
> A question has arisen with the implementation of bsdinstall in 9.x as
> opposed to sysinstall in 8.x and previous versions of FreeBSD.
>
> It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap as
> such:
>
> /
> /tmp
> /var
> /usr
> swap
>
> The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which
> creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a single
> "/" partition as such:
>
> /
> swap
>
> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default
> with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and
> swap.
>
> This is not a discussion of MBR vs GPT. The default moving forward from 9.x
> will be to use GPT.
>
> We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as one
> wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We want to
> know if people would prefer the older style default with four partitions and
> swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire Disk".
>
> Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

/ and /usr should be merged together, /var should stay separate, and
/tmp should be tmpfs :)

At least that's my preferred server configuration starting with 9.0. I
see no benefits in keeping / and /usr separate. A desktop can have
/var on the same file system as well, but servers should always
isolate it.

Just a few days ago, a misbehaving php script filled-up my entire /var
partition when it got into an endless loop. I've since realized the
value of blocking repeated error log messages in php configuration,
but keeping /var away from the rest was a good safety net.

- Max
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RE: One or Four?

> -Original Message-
> From: owner-freebsd-questi...@freebsd.org [mailto:owner-freebsd-
> questi...@freebsd.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Swiger
> Sent: Friday, February 17, 2012 2:18 PM
> To: david.robi...@fisglobal.com
> Cc: freebsd-questions@freebsd.org
> Subject: Re: One or Four?
> 
> On Feb 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
> > We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default
with 4
> partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and swap.
> 
> For a user/desktop machine, I prefer one root partition.  For other roles like
a
> server, I prefer multiple partitions which have been sized for the intended
usage.
> 

Then does the question ultimately become...

"Shall we then have two algorithms and ask the user whether they are installing
for the desktop versus server?"

If that's the case, then I think this is something I could personally live with
(as it then becomes possible to obtain the old layout of 4 partitions with
auto-calculated sizes ala Colin Percival's last sizing algorithm committed in
version 1.149 of src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/label.c made pre-SVN 6 years 6 months
ago).

See
http://www.freebsd.org/cgi/cvsweb.cgi/src/usr.sbin/sysinstall/Attic/label.c?rev=
1.149;content-type=text%2Fx-cvsweb-markup

The above link describes the partition scheme that I and colleagues seek-most to
return to FreeBSD 9.x and higher.

I argue that Colin's algorithm is still useful for servers and is still the
preferred method of allocation for servers and thus should remain an option,
even if we don't change the [new] default back to the above linked-to scheme.
-- 
Devin

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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Jerome Herman


On 17/02/2012 18:16, APseudoUtopia wrote:

Hello,

I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
shouldn't be a problem.

My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
Maildir.

Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
/usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.

Thank you.
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Alpine and Mutt, try mutt first and if you do not like it try alpine.
There are others (gnus, elm and cone). Elm being more or less the 
ancester of both pine and mutt.

I never tested any of these three though.
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Re: Adobe Linux Flash

2012-02-17 Thread sean


On Feb 16, 2012, at 8:33 PM, Da Rock wrote:
> 
> 
> Problem, I think lies, in the symlink. You don't need it, kill it and run 
> nspluginwrapper - the only flash file in your browser plugins directory 
> should be prefixed with npwrapper.
> 
> There may be an issue with nspluginwrapper (currently being discussed - can 
> anyone confirm if its similar?) that has to resolved.
> 
> Just to check, can you run `find /usr/local/ | grep ld-linux.so` and see if 
> it comes up? It could show ld-linux.so or the same followed by a number. Copy 
> the result here.

I deleted both symlinks and ran the find, no results returned.

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Re: One or Four?

On Feb 17, 2012, at 2:05 PM, Robison, Dave wrote:
> We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default with 
> 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and swap.

For a user/desktop machine, I prefer one root partition.  For other roles like 
a server, I prefer multiple partitions which have been sized for the intended 
usage.

Regards,
-- 
-Chuck

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One or Four?


Hiya,

A question has arisen with the implementation of bsdinstall in 9.x as 
opposed to sysinstall in 8.x and previous versions of FreeBSD.


It has always been FreeBSD's default to create four partitions and swap 
as such:


/
/tmp
/var
/usr
swap

The recent changes in 9.x with bsdinstall use a default behavior which 
creates only one partition and swap, with everything living under a 
single "/" partition as such:


/
swap

We'd like a show of hands to see if folks prefer the "old" style default 
with 4 partitions and swap, or the newer iteration with 1 partition and 
swap.


This is not a discussion of MBR vs GPT. The default moving forward from 
9.x will be to use GPT.


We realize that one can use bsdinstall to create as many partitions as 
one wants. However, the new default is for one partition and swap. We 
want to know if people would prefer the older style default with four 
partitions and swap when selecting "Guided Partitioning" and "Use Entire 
Disk".


Let the majority decide which layout is preferred for the default.

Thanks,

Dave

--
Dave Robison
Sales Solution Architect II
FIS Banking Solutions
510/621-2089 (w)
530/518-5194 (c)
510/621-2020 (f)
da...@vicor.com
david.robi...@fisglobal.com

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Re: how can i offload a 600m file without graphic tools?

2012-02-17 Thread Gary Kline

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 02:27:07PM +0100, Polytropon wrote:
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:27:07 +0100
> From: Polytropon 
> Subject: Re: how can i offload a 600m file without graphic tools?
> To: Gary Kline 
> Cc: FreeBSD Mailing List 
> X-Mailer: Sylpheed 3.1.1 (GTK+ 2.24.5; i386-portbld-freebsd8.2)
> 
> On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:32:07 -0800, Gary Kline wrote:
> > 
> > w can i move a file from my home filesystem to my one disc drive
> > without using a GUI?  i don't have a graphic interface on my FBSD
> > system and want to save a 600MB file to my cdrom?
> > 
> > thanks for tips on what i have Long forgotten!
> 
> I hope I can interpret your question correctly: You need to
> burn a 600 MB file to a disc (typically a CD, but could be a
> DVD too)?
> 
> That's quite easy: CDs typically use the ISO-9660 file system
> which mkisofs (from ports) creates, and a program like cdrecord
> or cdrdao can burn it to the media. For a DVD, growisofs will
> do that part.
> 
> Step 1:
> 
>   % mkisofs -r -J -o bigfile.iso bigfile
> 
> where "bigfile" is the file you want to store. The flags -r and
> -J make sure the file system will also be properly interpreted
> on non-standard systems; -o specifies the output file.
> 
> Step 2:
> 
>   % cdrecord dev=0,0,0 speed=10 -v -eject -tao -data bigfile.iso
> 
> In order to know _what_ device to record to, run
> 
>   % camcontrol devlist
> 
> Make sure you have proper permissions to access the files in /dev
> that are needed. If not, use "sudo" prefix or do the required parts
> using "su".
> 
> In the "camcontrol devlist" output, available drives will be
> listed. Bus, taget and LUN will form the "trinity" address that
> will then be used in the dev= parameter.
> 
> After successful burning,
> 
>   % rm bigfile.iso
> 
> as it's not needed anymore.
> 
> You can also use a piping mechanism from mkisofs to cdrecord, but I
> didn't want to make it that complicated. :-)
> 
> In case you need to burn a DVD because the file gets bigger than
> 650..700 MB, only one step is needed:
> 
>   % growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd -r -J bigfile
> 
> In this case, /dev/dvd is a symlink to /dev/cd0 (see "camcontrol
> devlist" output again, but look for the associated SCSI devices).
> 
> If you already have the ISO file, use
> 
>   % growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd=bigfile.iso
> 
> to record it to DVD.
> 
> 
> 
> Note that there are other ways to store data on CDs and DVDs
> which are intendedly less compatible by omitting the ISO 9660
> file system. :-)
> 
> 
> 
> 


i was going to ask you offlist, but then found this stuff --
or a subset of -- in my howto file.  then, yesterday, i
finally tried to change the bios of my target machine.  
busted.  rats!


> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Polytropon
> Magdeburg, Germany
> Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
> Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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-- 
 Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
 Voice By Computer (for Universal Access): http:/www.thought.org/vbc
  The 8.57a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org
 Twenty-five years of service to the Unix community.

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Re: DNS - slaving the root zone

2012-02-17 Thread Jeremy Chadwick

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 02:41:57PM +0100, Damien Fleuriot wrote:
> Hello list, Jeremy, Doug,
> 
> 
> We're currently having a discussion on the FRnOG mailing list regarding
> the laughable announcement of an attack on the DNS root servers by
> Anonymous.
> 
> I've kinda hijacked the thread to ask whether people slave the root zone
> or not, and why if not.
> 
> 
> Active poster, renowned blogger and AFNIC worker Stephane Bortzmeyer
> pointed out that it might not be a good idea and submitted the following
> discussion from 2007 as reference:
> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-August/075895.html
> 
> 
> Do you still believe slaving the root zone to be a bad idea ?

The important thread (IMO) is actually here:

https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2007-July/thread.html#1804

These are the people you should be asking this question to given the
"announcement".  Folks like Paul Vixie and David Conrad.

Also, just a tip: given that at an old job I dealt with DoS and DDoS
attacks on our infrastructure on a near-daily basis (advice to public:
never run a public IRC server on a major network), I wouldn't be so
quick to dismiss the claim as "laughable".  Folks can bring up the
distribution of all the root servers, anycast, etc. all they want, but
nobody truly knows how "distributed" the DDoS will be.  Sit back and
think about that one for a little while, let it stew in your mind.

Rest assured, if what is being proposed turns out to be accomplished,
you will be quite surprised at how many large Fortune 500 companies and
financial organisations are impacted by it.  I can't go into details,
but I can assure you with utmost certainty that many of them rely on
Internet transit for very important transactions -- most of which use
DNS-based lookups for all sorts of things.  Given the state of IT in
general these days, chances are very few companies have thought ahead in
this case.  Though DNS may not simply break 100% (duh), failed lookups
and "oddities" occurring all over the place would be likely.  If you've
ever worked at a large corporation, you'll know how easy it is for
people to incorrectly assess reasons for outages -- it wouldn't surprise
me if it took said companies 24-48 hours to figure out what was truly
the root cause.

TL;DR -- don't be hasty when it comes to threats on the Internet on such
a large scale.  It's amazing the infrastructure we have today works at
all anyway.

-- 
| Jeremy Chadwick  jdc at parodius.com |
| Parodius Networking http://www.parodius.com/ |
| UNIX Systems Administrator Mountain View, CA, US |
| Making life hard for others since 1977. PGP 4BD6C0CB |
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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Joshua Isom


On 2/17/2012 11:16 AM, APseudoUtopia wrote:

Hello,

I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
shouldn't be a problem.

My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
Maildir.

Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
/usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.

Thank you.
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I use dovecot to serve the mail, and access using imap for the clients. 
 Almost any client you're probably going to use will support imap, so 
maildir vs mbox doesn't matter.  It also means I have it set up to 
access the mail from anywhere.

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Re: Maildir Format

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:06:01 -0800, Bill Campbell wrote:
> Mutt would be my choice.  I have been using it for over a decade,
> and it handles Maildir as well as other common mailbox formats.

Also pine should be able to handle it (even though it could
be called "overcomplex" in relation to /usr/bin/mail).

By the way, the suggestion of redirecting the system's mail
output to a specific user account or "external" mail account
removes the choice for a program for local use. So the user's
default MUA (even if it's a web based solution) could be used.

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Cryopid for FreeBSD?

2012-02-17 Thread C. P. Ghost

Hello,

is there an equivalent to Linux' cryopid for FreeBSD?

http://code.google.com/p/cryopid/

Thanks,
-cpghost.

-- 
Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/
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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Bill Campbell

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012, APseudoUtopia wrote:
>Hello,
>
>I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
>and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
>the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
>with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
>shouldn't be a problem.
>
>My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
>default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
>and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
>delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
>Maildir.
>
>Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
>I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
>/usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
>The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
>much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.

Mutt would be my choice.  I have been using it for over a decade,
and it handles Maildir as well as other common mailbox formats.

Bill
-- 
INTERNET:   b...@celestial.com  Bill Campbell; Celestial Software LLC
URL: http://www.celestial.com/  PO Box 820; 6641 E. Mercer Way
Voice:  (206) 236-1676  Mercer Island, WA 98040-0820
Fax:(206) 232-9186  Skype: jwccsllc (206) 855-5792

The essence of all slavery consists in taking the produce of another's
labor by force. It is immaterial whether this force be founded on ownership
of the slave or ownership of the money that he must get to live on.
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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Paul Macdonald


On 17/02/2012 17:16, APseudoUtopia wrote:

Hello,

I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
shouldn't be a problem.

My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
Maildir.

Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
/usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.

why not just forward them to your gmail?

Paul.



Thank you.
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--
-
Paul Macdonald
IFDNRG Ltd
Web and video hosting
-
t: 0131 5548070
m: 07970339546

Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Julian H. Stacey

Hi,
Reference:
> From: APseudoUtopia  
> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 2012 12:16:29 -0500 
> Message-id:   
>  

APseudoUtopia wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
> and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
> the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
> with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
> shouldn't be a problem.
> 
> My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
> default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
> and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
> delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
> Maildir.

FYI an mbox splitter prog I wrote
http://berklix.com/~jhs/src/bsd/jhs/bin/public/mailsplit/

> 
> Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
> I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
> /usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
> The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
> much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.
> 
> Thank you.
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Cheers,
Julian
-- 
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 Format: Plain text. Not HTML, multipart/alternative, base64, quoted-printable.
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Re: Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread Daniel Staal


On Fri, February 17, 2012 12:16 pm, APseudoUtopia wrote:
> Hello,
>
> I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
> and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
> the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
> with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
> shouldn't be a problem.
>
> My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
> default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
> and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
> delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
> Maildir.
>
> Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
> I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
> /usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
> The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
> much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.
>
> Thank you.

Honestly, for one or two pure-text emails a day, I find 'less' on the most
recent files in the Maildir folder works fairly well, especially for just
a couple of days...

Daniel T. Staal

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Maildir Format

2012-02-17 Thread APseudoUtopia

Hello,

I'm setting up the email system on my server. I got rid of sendmail
and installed postfix, and I will be installing dovecot. I researched
the difference between mbox and maildir formats, and I'm going to go
with the Maildir. I'm running everything on ZFS, so many small files
shouldn't be a problem.

My problem is, before I made any of these changes and was using the
default sendmail setup, I was using /usr/bin/mail to read my periodic
and cron outputs. However, after I installed postfix with the Maildir
delivery option, I quickly realized that /usr/bin/mail doesn't support
Maildir.

Can anyone suggest a MUA which has support for Maildir that I can use?
I'm looking for something simple and command line, similar to
/usr/bin/mail that I can use until I get around to installing Dovecot.
The only one I know of off the top of my head is mutt. I've never had
much use, and thus experience, with unix MUAs.

Thank you.
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Re: sysinstall cant seem to download the kernel source.

2012-02-17 Thread Warren Block


On Fri, 17 Feb 2012, Brent Clark wrote:

I seem to have this problem with sysinstall, whereby I cant seem to download 
the kernel source.


I tried following this example 
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/freebsd-install-kernel-source-code/


I use "Install from an FTP server"

The error message I get is "Unable to transfer the sbase distribution from 
ftp://ftp.freebsd.org.";


Does anyone know of another way to get the kernel source.

Cvs or svn.


Depends on the version of FreeBSD.  For 9,
http://forums.freebsd.org/showthread.php?t=29172
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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS


On 02/18/12 00:22, Jerry wrote:

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:14:47 +0100
Polytropon articulated:


Think about that:

% netcat 192.168.123.456<  /tmp/printing.pdf

I can do either:

nc 192.168.1.100 9100<  /tmp/print.pdf

or  nc 192.168.1.100 9100<  /tmp/print.ps

right now without any problems.

If you looked at the

page, and you apparently did, then you will have noticed the "Making
Printing "Just Work"" concept that I suggested several months ago, only
to be met by the usual naysayers claiming it would never happen or be
feasible. Obviously, these are the same individuals who claimed that
the "bumblebee" could not fly.
You realise that you could do this with PS for ages? Nothing has changed 
as such in years...


Finding a printer that accepts PS? That was the problem. Mostly the 
issue is with GDI or some other propietry printer.


If the manufacturers accept a standard (and that means M$ needs to stop 
interfering, which it seems they now are and are moving away from GDI 
themselves) then it will all just work. PCL isn't much different, and 
most respectable printers have been using that since the beginning of 
time, or thereabouts, just more of them now.


You will find it hard to convince graphics to give up PS though, its 
pretty deeply rooted in their culture :)


If you have not all ready checked out
,
you might want to give it a quick once over. It is very informative.



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Re: Processor question

2012-02-17 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

On Thursday 16 February 2012 17:20:23 krad wrote:
> On 14 February 2012 20:28, Frank Shute  wrote:
> 
> > On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 02:47:08PM -0500, Mike Dockery wrote:
> > >
> > > Greetings,
> >
> > Aloha,
> >
> > >
> > > I have been a user of Linux since 1994, but most of the linux distros
> > > seem to be getting away from freedom... which is why I chose it in the
> > > first place.  They seem intent on forcing things that do not work well
> > > (like pulseaudio and nouveau) on everyone.  Freedom of choice is always
> > > best.
> >
> > Yeah, I used to use Linux but they became a bunch of Freedom Nazis
> > controlled by big companies.
> >
> > Happily using FreeBSD for 10 years.
> >
> > >
> > > My question is:  Should I try the amd64 version of FreeBSD with my Intel
> > > Core i7-2600 processor or should I use the i386?
> >
> > Generally, for an x86 machine with 4GB or greater memory use amd64.
> > Memory less than that use i386.
> >
> 
> I would actually say 3GB or more, as if you have a machine at 4gb and run a
> 32bit os you waste the best part of a gig or more due to pci addressing etc
> 
I would use the amd64 version in any case. I was forced once to switch because 
I needed more than 4GB memory for a single application. I noticed then that 
most things went smoother then.

Erich
> 
> >
> > ie. you almost certainly want to use amd64, I should think.
> >
> > >
> > > I hope to give FreeBSD a try later this month.
> >
> > Excellent. Best of luck and any problems not covered in the handbook
> > or google, post here. Welcome to FreeBSD!
> >
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Mike Dockery
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > --
> >
> >  Frank
> >
> >  Contact info: http://www.shute.org.uk/misc/contact.html
> >
> >
> >
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> 
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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS


On 02/17/12 23:57, Polytropon wrote:

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:33:33 +1000, Da Rock wrote:

PDF is not exactly PS, but it does use a subset of the instructions.

That's correct, but both formats share essential parts of
functionality. Conversion between them is relatively easy.




The other thing you will notice is that its mostly on MFC's, so I
believe they're using the PS chipset to encode a scanned doc to PDF; I'm
not sure it works the other way around, and I may even be wrong about
what they're doing but I think it is very suspect.

Yes, PDF output of scanned documents (even multi-page ones)
seems to be standard today (which is mostly a welcome solution
for storing and re-printing scanned documents).




A PS chipset is only an interpreter - it cannot normally encode PS, only
read a PS stream and rasterise it. But they may have extended it in only
this case. As for printing PDF, maybe... time will only tell.

I held a short lecture about PS many years ago. If I remember
my own words correctly, the PS "circuit" in a printer is a
little processor complex that processes the PS "programming
language" to do rasterization (from vector data or embedded
pixel objects), it could do calculations, some transformations
(like rotation), some other functions (like repeating the
output n times, use or not use the duplexer etc. depending
on the printer's hardware). If this facility could be used
to generate data and send it back through the network interface,
or keep it in local storage so network access can "pick it
up" (e. g. by FTP, NFS, CIFS/SMB), things would be easy as
those mechanisms can be kept internally in the printer without
requiring arbitrary "drivers" to make things work.
RIP processors do/did that. They're normally an external computer system 
designed to do just that: act as a print server (sometimes a bit like 
CUPS with a web interface) and you can store, hold, print jobs. Graphics 
organisations still use them, but since processors are so fast these 
days they don't always bother with some printers.


With these functions, the operator could receive a print job and direct 
it to whatever printer was available/best suited and run it. Some used 
them in the larger print shops for online printing from major contracts 
to automate the processing of jobs (immediate/monthly/weekly, etc).


You could also send the ripped file (or a PS encoded one) anywhere you 
want as well. The files were normally sent RAW and processed on the RIP 
to whatever was needed or wanted, and there was PS on the machine. These 
things were hooked up directly to the printer (no network - could be 
though - just a scsi connection directly to the print engine) so they 
had no real need for PS except to encode it.


The ones I worked on were NT based and some linux based ones. Fun 
times... :)

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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS

2012-02-17 Thread Jerry

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 14:14:47 +0100
Polytropon articulated:

> Think about that:
> 
>   % netcat 192.168.123.456 < /tmp/printing.pdf

I can do either:

nc 192.168.1.100 9100 < /tmp/print.pdf

or  nc 192.168.1.100 9100 < /tmp/print.ps

right now without any problems.

If you looked at the

page, and you apparently did, then you will have noticed the "Making
Printing "Just Work"" concept that I suggested several months ago, only
to be met by the usual naysayers claiming it would never happen or be
feasible. Obviously, these are the same individuals who claimed that
the "bumblebee" could not fly.

If you have not all ready checked out
,
you might want to give it a quick once over. It is very informative.

-- 
Jerry ♔

Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored.
Please do not ignore the Reply-To header.
__

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Re: Is the list down?

2012-02-17 Thread Erich Dollansky

Hi,

On Friday 17 February 2012 08:49:37 Da Rock wrote:
> On 02/17/12 11:21, Al Plant wrote:
> > I have not seen any action in 2 days.
> There's been plenty of action in the last 2 days. Maybe check your mail 
> server logs for errors?

I noticed the same thing. The missing mails arrived all meanwhile over night. 

Mails from other sources have been received normally during this period of time.

Things like this happen once in a while.

Erich
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> 
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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS


On 02/17/12 23:33, Da Rock wrote:

On 02/17/12 23:14, Polytropon wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:00:38 -0500, Jerry wrote:

It appears that "ps" is no-longer the format of choice but is being
replaced by PDF, a format that is natively supported by many printers.

Jerry, I wanted to point out that PS still seems to be the
format that _applications_ use as output format for printing.
Even though especially office applications (such as Abiword
or LibreOffice) have a built-in PDF file generator, the printing
output that is sent to the printing subsystem (lpr, CUPS, whatever)
is in PS format and gets converted to what the printer needs
by the proper printer filter ("driver").

The "print to file" output method typically creates PS, at
least on UNIX, Linux, MacOS X and other operating system
families.

If printers would natively support PDF data instead of unknown
arbitrary commands to move the printing head - things would be
MUCH LESS complicated on the OS's side. Data just needs to be
generated in PDF natively, or converted from PS to PDF (simple
task) by the printer filter, and then just sent to a specific
network address (just as netcat could do). That would nearly
eliminate the need for printer drivers I think. The only thing
that comes to my mind is... how does it handle duplexing and
other printer-HARDWARE specific things? Can they also be "coded"
in a PDF file?

Really, I like the approach of having PDF as a universal "printer
language" (even though it's not 100% safe from a security point
of view, but that doesn't matter on the home consumer market
anyway). It would remove any need complicated things like (in
my opinion) the CUPS configuration. You just need to enter the
IP of the printer - done; and it doesn't even matter of this
is a wired or wireless connection! Maybe even lowest-end USB
devices can accept a PDF "data stream"...

Think about that:

% netcat 192.168.123.456<  /tmp/printing.pdf

or even

% cat /tmp/inkpee.pdf>  /dev/ulpt0

to make the printer start printing...

With standardized PDF "instructions", there would be no need
for artificial OS barriers. PDF is known. No need to port any
drivers, to create wrappers or jump though hoops.

Note that the system's DEFAULT printing facility (the printer
spooler) would be a perfect means to plug in. Printer "filters"
could be easily implemented, i. e. only _one_ filter needs to
be present: one that converts an application's PS to PDF and
the send it to the printer's local port or IP address. All the
parts needed for that task are already present (and have been
for many years).

Would be interesting to see how this develops. Thanks for sharing
that info, sounds really good.
PDF is not exactly PS, but it does use a subset of the instructions. 
As near as I can tell this is how they're using it, as it is only 1.7 
or so onwards.


The other thing you will notice is that its mostly on MFC's, so I 
believe they're using the PS chipset to encode a scanned doc to PDF; 
I'm not sure it works the other way around, and I may even be wrong 
about what they're doing but I think it is very suspect.


A PS chipset is only an interpreter - it cannot normally encode PS, 
only read a PS stream and rasterise it. But they may have extended it 
in only this case. As for printing PDF, maybe... time will only tell.
What I forgot to add is that it would be no more difficult to print PDF 
as it is to print PS - you'd use the same functions but a slight 
difference in the quantity of data. I have yet to see a printer that 
will do it though

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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 23:33:33 +1000, Da Rock wrote:
> PDF is not exactly PS, but it does use a subset of the instructions.

That's correct, but both formats share essential parts of
functionality. Conversion between them is relatively easy.

> The other thing you will notice is that its mostly on MFC's, so I 
> believe they're using the PS chipset to encode a scanned doc to PDF; I'm 
> not sure it works the other way around, and I may even be wrong about 
> what they're doing but I think it is very suspect.

Yes, PDF output of scanned documents (even multi-page ones)
seems to be standard today (which is mostly a welcome solution
for storing and re-printing scanned documents).

> A PS chipset is only an interpreter - it cannot normally encode PS, only 
> read a PS stream and rasterise it. But they may have extended it in only 
> this case. As for printing PDF, maybe... time will only tell.

I held a short lecture about PS many years ago. If I remember
my own words correctly, the PS "circuit" in a printer is a
little processor complex that processes the PS "programming
language" to do rasterization (from vector data or embedded
pixel objects), it could do calculations, some transformations
(like rotation), some other functions (like repeating the
output n times, use or not use the duplexer etc. depending
on the printer's hardware). If this facility could be used
to generate data and send it back through the network interface,
or keep it in local storage so network access can "pick it
up" (e. g. by FTP, NFS, CIFS/SMB), things would be easy as
those mechanisms can be kept internally in the printer without
requiring arbitrary "drivers" to make things work.

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: note on my messed up 2003 dell

2012-02-17 Thread J65nko

Replacing the old battery with a new one usually solves this kind of
problem. I just did this yesterday ;)

On 2/17/12, Gary Kline  wrote:
>
> guys, this is just a FWIW, but it's worth bearing in mind.  i just
> tried to change the bios settings so that the old computer would
> boot from CD first.  no-joy.  long-story short, months in the garage
> or just-age must have ruined this box.
>
> --
>  Gary Kline  kl...@thought.org  http://www.thought.org  Public Service Unix
>  Voice By Computer (for Universal Access): http:/www.thought.org/vbc
>   The 8.57a release of Jottings: http://jottings.thought.org
>  Twenty-five years of service to the Unix community.
>
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DNS - slaving the root zone

2012-02-17 Thread Damien Fleuriot

Hello list, Jeremy, Doug,


We're currently having a discussion on the FRnOG mailing list regarding
the laughable announcement of an attack on the DNS root servers by
Anonymous.

I've kinda hijacked the thread to ask whether people slave the root zone
or not, and why if not.


Active poster, renowned blogger and AFNIC worker Stephane Bortzmeyer
pointed out that it might not be a good idea and submitted the following
discussion from 2007 as reference:
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2007-August/075895.html


Do you still believe slaving the root zone to be a bad idea ?

I actually do it on production 8-STABLE boxes here, seems to work well
enough.
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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS


On 02/17/12 23:14, Polytropon wrote:

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:00:38 -0500, Jerry wrote:

It appears that "ps" is no-longer the format of choice but is being
replaced by PDF, a format that is natively supported by many printers.

Jerry, I wanted to point out that PS still seems to be the
format that _applications_ use as output format for printing.
Even though especially office applications (such as Abiword
or LibreOffice) have a built-in PDF file generator, the printing
output that is sent to the printing subsystem (lpr, CUPS, whatever)
is in PS format and gets converted to what the printer needs
by the proper printer filter ("driver").

The "print to file" output method typically creates PS, at
least on UNIX, Linux, MacOS X and other operating system
families.

If printers would natively support PDF data instead of unknown
arbitrary commands to move the printing head - things would be
MUCH LESS complicated on the OS's side. Data just needs to be
generated in PDF natively, or converted from PS to PDF (simple
task) by the printer filter, and then just sent to a specific
network address (just as netcat could do). That would nearly
eliminate the need for printer drivers I think. The only thing
that comes to my mind is... how does it handle duplexing and
other printer-HARDWARE specific things? Can they also be "coded"
in a PDF file?

Really, I like the approach of having PDF as a universal "printer
language" (even though it's not 100% safe from a security point
of view, but that doesn't matter on the home consumer market
anyway). It would remove any need complicated things like (in
my opinion) the CUPS configuration. You just need to enter the
IP of the printer - done; and it doesn't even matter of this
is a wired or wireless connection! Maybe even lowest-end USB
devices can accept a PDF "data stream"...

Think about that:

% netcat 192.168.123.456<  /tmp/printing.pdf

or even

% cat /tmp/inkpee.pdf>  /dev/ulpt0

to make the printer start printing...

With standardized PDF "instructions", there would be no need
for artificial OS barriers. PDF is known. No need to port any
drivers, to create wrappers or jump though hoops.

Note that the system's DEFAULT printing facility (the printer
spooler) would be a perfect means to plug in. Printer "filters"
could be easily implemented, i. e. only _one_ filter needs to
be present: one that converts an application's PS to PDF and
the send it to the printer's local port or IP address. All the
parts needed for that task are already present (and have been
for many years).

Would be interesting to see how this develops. Thanks for sharing
that info, sounds really good.
PDF is not exactly PS, but it does use a subset of the instructions. As 
near as I can tell this is how they're using it, as it is only 1.7 or so 
onwards.


The other thing you will notice is that its mostly on MFC's, so I 
believe they're using the PS chipset to encode a scanned doc to PDF; I'm 
not sure it works the other way around, and I may even be wrong about 
what they're doing but I think it is very suspect.


A PS chipset is only an interpreter - it cannot normally encode PS, only 
read a PS stream and rasterise it. But they may have extended it in only 
this case. As for printing PDF, maybe... time will only tell.

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Re: how can i offload a 600m file without graphic tools?

On Mon, 13 Feb 2012 11:32:07 -0800, Gary Kline wrote:
> 
> w can i move a file from my home filesystem to my one disc drive
> without using a GUI?  i don't have a graphic interface on my FBSD
> system and want to save a 600MB file to my cdrom?
> 
> thanks for tips on what i have Long forgotten!

I hope I can interpret your question correctly: You need to
burn a 600 MB file to a disc (typically a CD, but could be a
DVD too)?

That's quite easy: CDs typically use the ISO-9660 file system
which mkisofs (from ports) creates, and a program like cdrecord
or cdrdao can burn it to the media. For a DVD, growisofs will
do that part.

Step 1:

% mkisofs -r -J -o bigfile.iso bigfile

where "bigfile" is the file you want to store. The flags -r and
-J make sure the file system will also be properly interpreted
on non-standard systems; -o specifies the output file.

Step 2:

% cdrecord dev=0,0,0 speed=10 -v -eject -tao -data bigfile.iso

In order to know _what_ device to record to, run

% camcontrol devlist

Make sure you have proper permissions to access the files in /dev
that are needed. If not, use "sudo" prefix or do the required parts
using "su".

In the "camcontrol devlist" output, available drives will be
listed. Bus, taget and LUN will form the "trinity" address that
will then be used in the dev= parameter.

After successful burning,

% rm bigfile.iso

as it's not needed anymore.

You can also use a piping mechanism from mkisofs to cdrecord, but I
didn't want to make it that complicated. :-)

In case you need to burn a DVD because the file gets bigger than
650..700 MB, only one step is needed:

% growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd -r -J bigfile

In this case, /dev/dvd is a symlink to /dev/cd0 (see "camcontrol
devlist" output again, but look for the associated SCSI devices).

If you already have the ISO file, use

% growisofs -dvd-compat -Z /dev/dvd=bigfile.iso

to record it to DVD.

Note that there are other ways to store data on CDs and DVDs
which are intendedly less compatible by omitting the ISO 9660
file system. :-)

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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Re: MFC 7840W under CUPS

On Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:00:38 -0500, Jerry wrote:
> It appears that "ps" is no-longer the format of choice but is being
> replaced by PDF, a format that is natively supported by many printers.

Jerry, I wanted to point out that PS still seems to be the
format that _applications_ use as output format for printing.
Even though especially office applications (such as Abiword
or LibreOffice) have a built-in PDF file generator, the printing
output that is sent to the printing subsystem (lpr, CUPS, whatever)
is in PS format and gets converted to what the printer needs
by the proper printer filter ("driver").

The "print to file" output method typically creates PS, at
least on UNIX, Linux, MacOS X and other operating system
families.

If printers would natively support PDF data instead of unknown
arbitrary commands to move the printing head - things would be
MUCH LESS complicated on the OS's side. Data just needs to be
generated in PDF natively, or converted from PS to PDF (simple
task) by the printer filter, and then just sent to a specific
network address (just as netcat could do). That would nearly
eliminate the need for printer drivers I think. The only thing
that comes to my mind is... how does it handle duplexing and
other printer-HARDWARE specific things? Can they also be "coded"
in a PDF file?

Really, I like the approach of having PDF as a universal "printer
language" (even though it's not 100% safe from a security point
of view, but that doesn't matter on the home consumer market
anyway). It would remove any need complicated things like (in
my opinion) the CUPS configuration. You just need to enter the
IP of the printer - done; and it doesn't even matter of this
is a wired or wireless connection! Maybe even lowest-end USB
devices can accept a PDF "data stream"...

Think about that:

% netcat 192.168.123.456 < /tmp/printing.pdf

or even

% cat /tmp/inkpee.pdf > /dev/ulpt0

to make the printer start printing...

With standardized PDF "instructions", there would be no need
for artificial OS barriers. PDF is known. No need to port any
drivers, to create wrappers or jump though hoops.

Note that the system's DEFAULT printing facility (the printer
spooler) would be a perfect means to plug in. Printer "filters"
could be easily implemented, i. e. only _one_ filter needs to
be present: one that converts an application's PS to PDF and
the send it to the printer's local port or IP address. All the
parts needed for that task are already present (and have been
for many years).

Would be interesting to see how this develops. Thanks for sharing
that info, sounds really good.

-- 
Polytropon
Magdeburg, Germany
Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0
Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ...
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program / Project Consultant.

2012-02-17 Thread Thierry Sconetti

Dear,
First, please accept my apologies for the disturbance.
I am a Senior Consultant Infrastructure Program Manager with 20 years 
experience in IM&T. I started my career with Digital in Sophia Antipolis in 
1988 and over time, made my primary focus in IT Program/Project management.
Here are companies that I have been dealing with over the time:
· Berkeley Scott in London (1998-2001) as Senior IT consultant (interim 
IT Director)
· AT&T in Paris since (2001-2004) as Program Manager
· WL Gore in Paris (2004-2005) as Program Manager (Integration program)
· DELL in France and Benelux as Senior Integration Project Manager 
(outsourcing project)
· Fortis Bank in Luxembourg and Brussels as Project leader (integration 
project)
· Opteamum Alliance in Paris as Senior Integration Project Leader 
(acquisition project)
· ThyssenKrupp in France and Benelux as Senior Integration Project 
Leader (outsourcing  project)
Following the numbers of years’ experience, I can offer services within Project 
and Program Management organizations:  
· Management of all project phases, from Initiation to Closure
· Management of the project's key elements: scope, planning, KPI's, 
budget...
· Leading of the Project team
· A methodology adapted to your requirements: PMI, Prince2 or the 
customer's in-house methodology
· Ad-hoc intervention on on-going projects 
·  Support in the setting up of Project Management Offices (PMO's)
I look forward to hearing from you and would welcome the opportunity to discuss 
my expertise in detail. 
Kind regards,
Thierry Sconetti
Tel: +33 6 23 11 08 02
Email: thierry.scone...@sconetticoncept.com
 

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Re: /lib/exec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libpcre.so.0" not found, required by "libxfsm-4.6.so.0" amd64 FreeBSD 8.2

2012-02-17 Thread RW

On Thu, 16 Feb 2012 09:08:54 -0600
Antonio Olivares wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Ryan Frederick
>  wrote:
> > It looks like others have run into this problem with avahi-app as
> > well:
> >
> > http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2011-July/068658.html
> >
> > A cursory search shows that uninstalling avahi-app then
> > reinstalling should take care of the compilation failure. Afterward
> > you should be able to run portmaster as shown in the error message
> > (minus 'net/avahi-app') to finish recompiling the ports that depend
> > on pcre.

> 
> Thanks Ryan when I get home tonight, I will remove avahi-app and
> reinstall it and then recompile all the ports that depend on pcre.

I ran into this problem yesterday and removing avahi-ap didn't fix
it for me. In the end I identified some orphaned libraries
under /usr/local/ and deleting those fixed the problem.
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program / Project Consultant.

2012-02-17 Thread Thierry Sconetti

Dear,
First, please accept my apologies for the disturbance.
I am a Senior Consultant Infrastructure Program Manager with 20 years 
experience in IM&T. I started my career with Digital in Sophia Antipolis in 
1988 and over time, made my primary focus in IT Program/Project management.
Here are companies that I have been dealing with over the time:
· Berkeley Scott in London (1998-2001) as Senior IT consultant (interim 
IT Director)
· AT&T in Paris since (2001-2004) as Program Manager
· WL Gore in Paris (2004-2005) as Program Manager (Integration program)
· DELL in France and Benelux as Senior Integration Project Manager 
(outsourcing project)
· Fortis Bank in Luxembourg and Brussels as Project leader (integration 
project)
· Opteamum Alliance in Paris as Senior Integration Project Leader 
(acquisition project)
· ThyssenKrupp in France and Benelux as Senior Integration Project 
Leader (outsourcing  project)
Following the numbers of years’ experience, I can offer services within Project 
and Program Management organizations:  
· Management of all project phases, from Initiation to Closure
· Management of the project's key elements: scope, planning, KPI's, 
budget...
· Leading of the Project team
· A methodology adapted to your requirements: PMI, Prince2 or the 
customer's in-house methodology
· Ad-hoc intervention on on-going projects 
·  Support in the setting up of Project Management Offices (PMO's)
I look forward to hearing from you and would welcome the opportunity to discuss 
my expertise in detail. 
Kind regards,
Thierry Sconetti
Tel: +33 6 23 11 08 02
Email: thierry.scone...@sconetticoncept.com
 

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Re: /lib/exec/ld-elf.so.1: Shared object "libpcre.so.0" not found, required by "libxfsm-4.6.so.0" amd64 FreeBSD 8.2

2012-02-17 Thread Antonio Olivares

On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 9:08 AM, Antonio Olivares
 wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 16, 2012 at 8:18 AM, Ryan Frederick
>  wrote:
>> It looks like others have run into this problem with avahi-app as well:
>>
>> http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-ports/2011-July/068658.html
>>
>> A cursory search shows that uninstalling avahi-app then reinstalling should
>> take care of the compilation failure. Afterward you should be able to run
>> portmaster as shown in the error message (minus 'net/avahi-app') to finish
>> recompiling the ports that depend on pcre.
>>
>> Ryan

This does make the desktop work again :)  I followed the advice and am
back in the saddle.  Some things failed to compile, but I used -x
parameter to not update them.  I will track those ports later.  I
appreciate the help and advice provided.

It appears that a new pcre update hits the ports later.  I wonder if
it bypasses the original problem.

Regards,

Antonio
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Re: sysinstall cant seem to download the kernel source.

2012-02-17 Thread RW

On Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:31:39 +0200
Brent Clark wrote:

> I use "Install from an FTP server"
> 
> The error message I get is "Unable to transfer the sbase distribution
> from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org.";
> 
> Does anyone know of another way to get the kernel source.

Get it with csup and be sure to set the correct tag in your supfile
(probably RELENG_9_0, for the 9.0 security branch or RELENG_9 for the
stable development branch). In the long term it's simplest and safest to
start from an empty src directory anyway.
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Re: FreeBSD on Dell R210 II With PERC H200 Controllers

2012-02-17 Thread Damien Fleuriot

On 2/17/12 11:02 AM, Traiano Welcome wrote:
> Hi Damien
> 
>  Additional question:
> 
> 
> On 17/02/2012 11:14, "Damien Fleuriot"  wrote:
> 
>> Sorry top post, posting from phone.
>>
>> 8.2-stable, 9.0-release, will post a link with a tutorial when I hit my
>> desk
> 
> 
> 
> A lot of these Dell R210 II's ship with the S300 PERC. Does FreeBSD have
> support for this controller as well?
> 

Regarding S300 I'm sorry, I wouldn't be able to tell, all I've been able
to test was H200.

So, now that I'm at work, a more detailed response regarding Dell r210
with Perc H200 raid controllers.

First of all, you're going to need the mps driver which is available in
8-STABLE (8.3-PRERELEASE), 9.0-RELEASE and 9-STABLE.

It is *not* available as per the stock 8.2-RELEASE iso image.

Second, you're going to need to disable the hardware raid so that your
disks actually appear to the OS, then create a software raid on them.

This is done by hitting Ctrl+R when asked to, during the machine's boot
process.

Third, there has been a recent update to mps by Kashyap DESAI as
published by Kenneth D. Merry:
http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-current/2012-January/031358.html

The update is available on 8-STABLE and 9-STABLE and it might bring
hardware raid support for H200 controllers.

Here are 2 links to help you getting started:

- my quick drafted procedure: http://my.gd/bsd.htm
- which Ollivier Robert greatly improved:
http://www.keltia.net/howtos/freebsd-dedibox
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Re: sysinstall cant seem to download the kernel source.


On 02/17/12 19:31, Brent Clark wrote:

Hiya

I seem to have this problem with sysinstall, whereby I cant seem to 
download the kernel source.


I tried following this example 
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/freebsd-install-kernel-source-code/


I use "Install from an FTP server"

The error message I get is "Unable to transfer the sbase distribution 
from ftp://ftp.freebsd.org.";


Does anyone know of another way to get the kernel source.

Cvs or svn.
A quick search of previous posts to this list should provide the answer 
you need. Try from last month I think :)

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Re: Technical Support Question


On 02/17/12 19:58, Chip Oakley wrote:

Thanks interesting possibilities.

One thought I had is creating an operating system independent BIOS where
the appropriate machine code is inserted into the events that lead to an
override of the processes that is forcing into windows. Maybe burned to a
CD or USB,  from another computer and tie the low level to a keyboard
function,  Like pressing F2 etc, at boot to access new BIOS functionality.

Is this possible?

I don't believe so.

Its not really that hardwired to windows, not in my experience; it is a 
real PITA though. If you play your cards right and you know enough about 
BIOS you will get it. With the new laptops they really try hard to stick 
windows like shit on your laptop. But they can't _make_ you use it.


New HP laptops (like the ones I use), can take a few goes to get it to 
install. Asus are about the same. Just watch your boot ordering and you 
will be fine.


I keep reiterating using USB to install because it really does simplify 
matters.


In the BIOS you usually find about 3 entries to set the boot order. One 
is to set the boot order (removable, hdd, or network), one for which 
removable (cdrom, usb cdrom, usb floppy, etc), and one for hdd priority 
(here is where your usb disk will show up, and you _will_ have to set it 
as boot every time, but it will boot).


Set the boot order for removable, hdd, network (or disable if you like). 
Set the removable to cdrom. Set the hdd (temporarily because as I said 
it _will_ change) to the usb disk. Voila! it will start the install.


I have found the cdrom to be fickle on the new laptops for booting, I'm 
not sure exactly why but I suspect the confusion of removable drives in 
the BIOS. I'm not a samsung expert, but most laptop BIOS are very 
similar (at least ones in the same era).


#1 Get a BIOS expert to help if you can't get this figured. They will be 
able to show you exactly what to do in front of you in about 5-10 mins. 
Easier to understand if its visually shown to you rather than described.


Once you jump this hurdle you will do just fine.


On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM,  wrote:


Chip Oakley  wrote:


Am tempted to remove the drive and insert a new one, not sure as
there is memory on the drive available and nothing really wrong
with it.

If you don't mind losing everything currently on the drive,
overwriting the MBR -- and the backup GPT at the end of the drive,
if the BIOS supports GPT/UEFI -- would surely keep it from booting
into Windows.  You'd probably have to take the drive out, and
connect it to a different machine (since this one's BIOS seems
hardwired to boot only from the hard drive).

Another possibility would be to clear the machine's CMOS, if there's
a way to do that.  Desktop mainboards usually have a jumper for the
purpose; dunno about Samsung laptops but removing the CMOS battery
and giving it a few minutes for the stray capacitance to discharge
should suffice.  (Getting to the CMOS battery may involve taking the
case apart.)






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sysinstall cant seem to download the kernel source.

2012-02-17 Thread Brent Clark


Hiya

I seem to have this problem with sysinstall, whereby I cant seem to download 
the kernel source.

I tried following this example 
http://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/freebsd-install-kernel-source-code/

I use "Install from an FTP server"

The error message I get is "Unable to transfer the sbase distribution from 
ftp://ftp.freebsd.org.";

Does anyone know of another way to get the kernel source.

Cvs or svn.


Regards
Brent

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Re: FreeBSD on Dell R210 II With PERC H200 Controllers

2012-02-17 Thread Traiano Welcome

Hi Damien

 Additional question:


On 17/02/2012 11:14, "Damien Fleuriot"  wrote:

>Sorry top post, posting from phone.
>
>8.2-stable, 9.0-release, will post a link with a tutorial when I hit my
>desk



A lot of these Dell R210 II's ship with the S300 PERC. Does FreeBSD have
support for this controller as well?



>
>
>On 17 Feb 2012, at 09:11, Traiano Welcome
> wrote:
>
>> Hi List
>> 
>> Is there a version of freebsd (preferably 8 upwards) that supports the
>>PERC H200 controller on Dell R210 II servers ? I've followed the thread
>>at:
>> 
>> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.stable/74192
>> 
>> But it seems somewhat inconclusive.
>> 
>> Thanks in Advance,
>> Traiano
>> 
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Re: Technical Support Question

2012-02-17 Thread Chip Oakley

Thanks interesting possibilities.

One thought I had is creating an operating system independent BIOS where
the appropriate machine code is inserted into the events that lead to an
override of the processes that is forcing into windows. Maybe burned to a
CD or USB,  from another computer and tie the low level to a keyboard
function,  Like pressing F2 etc, at boot to access new BIOS functionality.

Is this possible?

On Fri, Feb 17, 2012 at 11:26 AM,  wrote:

> Chip Oakley  wrote:
>
> > Am tempted to remove the drive and insert a new one, not sure as
> > there is memory on the drive available and nothing really wrong
> > with it.
>
> If you don't mind losing everything currently on the drive,
> overwriting the MBR -- and the backup GPT at the end of the drive,
> if the BIOS supports GPT/UEFI -- would surely keep it from booting
> into Windows.  You'd probably have to take the drive out, and
> connect it to a different machine (since this one's BIOS seems
> hardwired to boot only from the hard drive).
>
> Another possibility would be to clear the machine's CMOS, if there's
> a way to do that.  Desktop mainboards usually have a jumper for the
> purpose; dunno about Samsung laptops but removing the CMOS battery
> and giving it a few minutes for the stray capacitance to discharge
> should suffice.  (Getting to the CMOS battery may involve taking the
> case apart.)
>

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Re: FreeBSD on Dell R210 II With PERC H200 Controllers

2012-02-17 Thread Traiano Welcome




On 17/02/2012 11:14, "Damien Fleuriot"  wrote:

>Sorry top post, posting from phone.
>
>8.2-stable, 9.0-release, will post a link with a tutorial when I hit my
>desk


Thanks, Damien! Much appreciated!



>
>
>On 17 Feb 2012, at 09:11, Traiano Welcome
> wrote:
>
>> Hi List
>> 
>> Is there a version of freebsd (preferably 8 upwards) that supports the
>>PERC H200 controller on Dell R210 II servers ? I've followed the thread
>>at:
>> 
>> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.stable/74192
>> 
>> But it seems somewhat inconclusive.
>> 
>> Thanks in Advance,
>> Traiano
>> 
>> ___
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Traiano

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Re: Technical Support Question

2012-02-17 Thread perryh

Chip Oakley  wrote:

> Am tempted to remove the drive and insert a new one, not sure as
> there is memory on the drive available and nothing really wrong
> with it.

If you don't mind losing everything currently on the drive,
overwriting the MBR -- and the backup GPT at the end of the drive,
if the BIOS supports GPT/UEFI -- would surely keep it from booting
into Windows.  You'd probably have to take the drive out, and
connect it to a different machine (since this one's BIOS seems
hardwired to boot only from the hard drive).

Another possibility would be to clear the machine's CMOS, if there's
a way to do that.  Desktop mainboards usually have a jumper for the
purpose; dunno about Samsung laptops but removing the CMOS battery
and giving it a few minutes for the stray capacitance to discharge
should suffice.  (Getting to the CMOS battery may involve taking the
case apart.)
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Re: FreeBSD on Dell R210 II With PERC H200 Controllers

2012-02-17 Thread Damien Fleuriot

Sorry top post, posting from phone.

8.2-stable, 9.0-release, will post a link with a tutorial when I hit my desk


On 17 Feb 2012, at 09:11, Traiano Welcome  
wrote:

> Hi List
> 
> Is there a version of freebsd (preferably 8 upwards) that supports the PERC 
> H200 controller on Dell R210 II servers ? I've followed the thread at:
> 
> http://comments.gmane.org/gmane.os.freebsd.stable/74192
> 
> But it seems somewhat inconclusive.
> 
> Thanks in Advance,
> Traiano
> 
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Re: fb9 - dmesg - bluetooth and netgraph warnings


On 02/17/12 18:19, jb wrote:

Hi,

I have these warnings. Any known cause and solution ?
FreeBSD 9.0-RELEASE #0
$ dmesg
...
ubt0:  on usbus0
WARNING: attempt to domain_add(bluetooth) after domainfinalize()
WARNING: attempt to domain_add(netgraph) after domainfinalize()
They should be fine, they're normal (apparently) for bluetooth running 
on FBSD.

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Re: Google+ install Hangout Voice and Video Plug-in