Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Joshua Tinnin writes: You live life your way. Let others do the same. They can do whatever they want, as long as they don't infringe upon my own rights. I do not live my life in fear, but nor do I live it in an uninformed manner. Fear has nothing to do with it. It's a question of conscience, ethics, and the Golden Rule. If you're serious about this, complaining to the main FreeBSD tech help list won't change anything. You need to do a massive, worldwide campaign. A single lawsuit could close down FreeBSD by eliminating most of its assets. I wouldn't want to see that happen. It's unfortunate that some people are stupid enough and stubborn enough to put the entire project at risk. ... you can always unsubscribe ... I've been considering that, since I don't really get much out of the list. I almost never get a useful answer to a question, for example. But there is nothing else when it comes to FreeBSD--one of the consequences of it being open-source. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Alex de Kruijff writes: They can claim all they like, but that doesn't mean this hold up in cord. It does sometimes, which is why smart sysadmins protect against it (it's trivially easy to do). In the Netherlands one who enters a protected system deliberate and unlawful can get half a year of jail time and a fine of about two thosend euro's. And how does the law define protected, deliberate, and unlawful? The law doesn't say anyting about warning that need to be displayed. So how does a potential intruder know that a system is protected? Lets say I've lost my key to my house and someone else found it. This still doesn't give that person the right to use it to gain access to my house. How would you prove that he obtained your keys illegitimately? Having the keys provides prima facie evidence that he was authorized to enter the house. Of course if there where some technical compromise disabling the need for the username/password then they whould be home free. But this technical compromise could also effect the message. If they enter with a valid user name and password, then again that is strong evidence that they were authorized to use the system. The fact that it may be due to the system owner's negligence won't help. Leaving the door open would mean not require a the user to enter there name and password. No, there are many ways to leave open doors. Someone who correctly guesses a user name and password can walk through an open door. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Bart Silverstrim writes: Nope, because that assumes I have permission to quote ahead of time and I'd have an archive in my sent mail (and trash items) for a period of time that you didn't explicitly allow. No, it does not. It does not extend the publication of your message beyond the circle of existing subscribers, and it is only a partial backquote, which falls within the scope of fair use (in the U.S., and in some other countries). What you keep personally archived is irrelevant, since you legitimately received the message to begin with--although having it archived doesn't mean that you can republish the message in other venues. Otherwise, I'm screwed legally because I'd be violating your IP rights and copyright. No. See above. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: No, Chris, we don't want to do that. If you put any kind of message like that on the website you are then implying that the users have copyrights in the first place on postings that they put on the mailing list. It's better than being successfully sued or prosecuted for infringement. There can be little doubt that posts are indeed protected by copyright, as they fall within the scope of materials that are so protected. The only question is the degree to which this copyright can be successfully enforced. However, successful enforcement of a law isn't necessary to make the law valid, especially in torts. Since what law there is supports the opposite assumption - that the poster has no copyright on the post made in this forum - you are far better legally by NOT putting such a disclaimer. Which law supports that? It is kind of like if you walk into a restaurant and pick up a fork and stab yourself, then sue the restaurant claiming that they are negligent in not warning you that their forks are sharp. Today you don't see warning labels on forks because the law presumes that a fork is supposed to be sharp, and it presumes that anyone of legal age to enter a restaurant would know this. What is the minimum legal age to enter a restaurant? If restaurants all started slapping warning labels on their forks then they would create a presumption that a normal fork is dull, and that the sharp kind is unexpected. Yes, but then they couldn't be sued successfully any more. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Timothy Smith writes: but you DO have to consent to the terms and conditions in to confirmation email that is sent to you ... There are no terms and conditions in the confirmation e-mail that mention copyright, archives, or publication outside the mailing list. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Danny Pansters writes: Now you lump me into some self defined geek community. I didn't say anything about you. Apparently I don't respect the rule of law now. Isn't that slander? FYI, slander is verbal defamation; written defamation would be libel. If you truly don't respect the rule of law, then that would simply me that you don't feel constrained by law and violate it when it suits you--it would not necessarily mean that you'd be in violation of any specific law. Isn't my post copyrighted? Copyrights are enforced by the same courts that handle defamation. By extension that also includes the people that make and sustain FreeBSD. What does? So the answer is DUNNO thank you. The answer is that there are no firm precedents, so anything goes. And therefore prudence is wise. How else are generally broadcasted text messages covered then? As soon as the message is created, it is copyrighted. That's how copyright works. The author need not do anything special to ensure copyright protection; it is automatic upon creation of the protected work. Yes but it already pretty much does IMHO. No, it does not. Perhaps it could be stated more absolutely. Yes, it could. It would also be convenient to be able to enable or disable archiving on a per-subscriber basis, or even a per-message basis (with headers). In can elaborate in length about the nuclear/reprocessing industry in France and how private and gubernational forces are tied but you'd dismiss it as a special case anyhow. Since a rant of this type would be totally irrelevant to the subject at hand, it might be best to refrain. Which means that FreeBSD's openness is somehow at fault? It has nothing to do with FreeBSD's openness. So don't claim it is conclusive. It is void. Void. Void. The copyrights indisputably exist, and there's no specific statutory exemption for mailing lists. It's difficult to see upon what basis a successful defense against infringement could be built. You were the one talking about superimposing DMCA upon your national laws. The DMCA is already a part of national laws, in the U.S. Yes, but perhaps not all, or not even most. Someone who can read code can also read legalese. Not true. They are two entirely different things, and code geeks often have poor reading and writing skills to begin with. Since legalese is often at the upper end of reading difficulty, then, many geeks cannot understand it--which is perhaps one reason why they think they can ignore it. It won't be me anyhow (if applying your ethics). If you applied my ethics, you would not be infringing in the first place. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Marc Fonvieille writes: All, and I said All, mailing list subscribing forms mention their archives (To see the collection of prior postings to the list, visit the freebsd-blahblah Archives.). It is impossible to miss it. Then why do so many forms require that you tick a checkbox to assert that you've read and accepted the terms on the page? In any case, nothing like that exists for FreeBSD lists. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Alex de Kruijff writes: So? As long as your system is protected by a password nobody has a legal defence. Unfortunately they do. For example, if they guess a user name and password and it works, they can enter your system and claim that they believed it was okay because nothing told them otherwise. You have to specifically advise them that they must be authorized, otherwise if they accidentally or deliberately enter the system through a technical compromise, they can defend themselves on this basis. A admin that doesn't put up a warning like breaking in is a criminal act is not at fault legaly or otherwise. Not at fault, perhaps, but he does leave the door open to certain types of compromises. Windows NT was developed with a specific OS feature to provide for this: it displays site-selected text at logon time and requies that the user click to acknowledge the text before logging in successfully. A great many organizations use this feature. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Chris writes: ... in order for someone to claim a violation of copyright, it MUST be registered with the copyright office (at least here in the States). For civil procedures involving works of U.S. origin, yes. But you don't have to register way in advance, you only have to register before the suit is filed. In your postings Anthony, you touch on everything before that very important point, AND after. You never once mention the fact that a person NEEDS to take that one extra step. All of this is irrelevant to the fact that posts are copyrighted by their authors, with or without registration. So, in my view - this makes the whole issue (and thread) pointless unless someone has taken that one, last step. You're saying that you ignore the law unless someone forces you to obey it. Infringement of copyrights that are unregistered is just as real as infringement of copyrights that are registered. It is just as dishonest, illegal, and unethical. There is simply no point in arguing this UNLESS you can PROVE that you have filed the paperwork to actually allow you to force the law to look into copyright infringement. For those of us with ethics and conscience, registration is irrelevant. We do not refrain from infringement out of fear of prosecution, we refrain because infringement is wrong. End of discussion. Now - for those that are bitching that they feel they have been violated, PROVE to us that YOU filed for the copyright, else - get a life or remove yourself from the list. Be careful what you write. It looks like you're saying that you're aware of the infringement and acknowledge it, but you just don't care, which makes the infingement willful and malicious. You're essentially saying I'll do what I want, and if you don't like it, come and get me, which can be very unpleasant if someone takes you up on the offer. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Chris Hodgins writes: This keeps coming up time and time again. Why don't we simply put up a message on the subscription page that says if you subscribe you agree that your messages will be archived for public viewing. End of story. No more bitchy emails on this subject, no more heated debates and much more time devoted to talking about FreeBSD. I agree. The text should be reviewed by a lawyer, and the subscription process must be designed such that it is impossible to subscribe without explicitly accepting the conditions (by clicking a box, or something). Note that this will apply only to new subscribers, not existing subscribers, for whom the problem remains. Also, you must make it clear in the conditions whether or not posts will be archived even after a member of the list unsubscribes. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Bart Silverstrim writes: Dilemma...how do I get permission to quote you to reply to you? You can e-mail me and ask. However, backquoting of portions of a message generally falls within the scope of fair use, IMO (IANAL). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Chris writes: If thats what it comes down to - then sending emails, lists, bloggs, etc are all willfull violations of copyright - Oh no - where do you draw the line!!! Some are, some aren't. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Joshua Tinnin writes: Where is the infringement here? Reproducing a copyrighted work without permission. Have you spoken to an actual lawyer about this issue? I have. Guess what he said? I prefer not to guess. Invite him here. In any case, lawyers don't decide what is or isn't infringement; courts do. And in the world of IP, it's often a roll of the dice. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Joshua Tinnin writes: Then so is every single tech help list with public archives. Yes. The fact that certain infringing actions may take place with great frequency does not make them any less infringing. Some of them have been in existence before the web. I can't figure out why you keep harping on an issue like this that is not at all unique to FreeBSD, nor even open source. It's a matter of conscience and ethics. Why don't you head over to some other tech lists for a while and complain about this? I worry mainly about lists to which I subscribe. Say, have you read over the legal documents pertaining to when DejaNews and later Google archived Usenet? Yes, long ago. It would be educational for you to peruse them. It was. Yes, but you're not a lawyer, yet you persist in talking about these matters as if you had some authority. You're not a lawyer, either, as far as I know. I hate to bring up the old cliche ... but, seriously, Anthony, most of what you do here is spread: Fear Uncertainty Doubt Much of the prudence that lawful behavior demands is based on these. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Fafa Hafiz Krantz writes: I have a big problem. My privacy has been violated. I had no idea when I first started writing posts to the FreeBSD mailinglist that it would be archived, let alone indexed by Google so that the world can spy on my words. Can the FreeBSD mailinglist administrators change my name and e-mails, or delete my posts, if I can prove that I wrote them? You hold a copyright on your posts, so you can force them to be taken off the Net with a DMCA notification. The notification, which can be sent by e-mail, must contain: * Your name and address, and digital signature information * The location of the infringing materials (where are they on the Internet--a FreeBSD archive server, in your case) * Identification of the copyrighted works (the specific posts you want removed) * A statement saying that you believe in good faith that the materials infringe your copyrights. * A statement saying that you believe your notice to be accurate and that, under penalty of perjury, you are authorized to act against this infringement (as an agent of the owner, although you're both one and the same in this case). * A statement saying that you accept U.S. jurisdiction. You can find model notifications on the Web. The targeted providers must remove the infringing material until and unless they can show that it is not infringing. After a certain period, you must sue them to obtain redress if they don't voluntarily remove the infringing materials. If they don't cooperate, you can notify their upstream provider, which must act or assume liability itself for any infringements (safe harbor provisions). I'm not a lawyer, and this is not intended as legal advice. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Giorgos Keramidas writes: This is a recurring theme. It's really *NOT* the fault of the postmaster of FreeBSD.org that you posted to public mailing lists. It _is_ the fault of the mailing list manager that posts are being archived without the permission of mailing-list members. Members must be required to explicitly grant permission when they subscribe. The Handbook section about mailing lists[1] says: What the Handbook says is irrelevant, because nobody is required to read it in order to subscribe to a list. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Fafa Hafiz Krantz writes: What if ones life is at risk? As I've said, send a DMCA to the owner of the archive (and to other parties if they have copies). If they don't take down the infringing material, you can sue. If their ISPs don't cooperate, you can sue them as well. There should be a law protecting users against this. There is: copyright law. But most technical geeks don't know much about it, so they try to pretend that it doesn't exist. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Bart Silverstrim writes: A) You sent messages to unknown hundreds or thousands of people on the mailing list, all of which could have a cached copy of your messages, and now wonder about privacy? I've explained the differences before; perhaps I need to explain them again. When you sign up to a mailing list, you implicitly give permission to distribute your posts to other members of the list. You do _not_ give permission to have your posts archived, and you do _not_ give permission to have your posts published and made accessible to people who are not on the list. B) The archives are searchable and referenced, and you claim you didn't know that despite the number of self appointed upper-echelons that reply with a curt Look in the archives type answer? It has to be part of the confirmation process. You have to require that members accept these terms in order to subscribe. Do you really think that software companies and major Web sites have those little check boxes that say I accept just for decoration? C) Your words are being re-mirrored by being embedded inside other posts that REPLY to your messages. You honestly think that a volunteer is going to delete your messages AND all messages referencing your name? You don't need a volunteer, you just need software to do it. And it's not hard to write. There should be. We'll call it The Law of Common Sense. The law of common sense says that you don't agree to anything that isn't in writing and does not proceed _inevitably_ from that to which you agree. Archives and publication are not inevitable consequences of being on a mailing list, therefore you must agree to them explicitly. None on the list that I know of is actively digging into your background or prying more secrets from you regarding your personal information ... What makes you think they would notify you if they were? The way the Internet works isn't a secret. This policy is not the way the Internet works. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Bart Silverstrim writes: Yeah, cuz, we wouldn't want the archives to be referenced for people who are looking for help on topics, after all. Do you think that subscribers would refuse to grant permission to have their posts archived? If so, doesn't that say something to you about archiving posts without their permission? Do they need to issue a specific list of what to do when using FreeBSD or interacting with the community? Yes, legally. If you don't tell them, it's not their responsibility. And if you do things for which you need permission without asking for and obtaining permission, it's your responsibility. And how many people would actually follow it ANYWAY? It doesn't matter. It's a question of protecting oneself legally. Most don't even read the @#%# EULA on the software they install on their home computer. Nevertheless, they agree to be bound by it when they check the little box that says I accept. Most users out there still think they OWN their operating system ... Some people think that they own any messages posted on their servers. How about people use common sense before joining lists and posting to them, and take some responsibility for the things they do? Common sense says that when you subscribe to a list, your posts are seen only by other people on the list, not by the entire world. It's certainly no secret that these posts are archived out there ... It doesn't have to be a secret; subscribers must still agree to it. It's no secret that software is copyrighted; however, software companies still force users to accept a EULA so that they cannot claim that they didn't know they were licensing copyrighted material. It's no secret that most computer systems are not open to everyone; however, sysadmins (at least those who know what they are doing) still must put messages in login procedures that advise users of the restricted character of access to the system. Otherwise intruders could say that they didn't know access was restricted. Better yet start some arguments with the governments and businesses that are video taping people with security cameras on street corners and inside stores. Many jurisdictions require that persons on private property be apprised of any video recording, precisely because of the privacy implications. Persons attending a concert that is being videotaped also must be apprised of this on their tickets; their consent to recording cannot necessarily be presumed. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Roland Smith writes: On the page where you subscribe to a mailing list there is a link to the list archives. The existance to this link implies a public accessible archive of the list. If you don't like that, don't subscribe. You cannot be sure that subscribers have read it unless you require them to take explicit action to confirm that they have read it. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Roland Smith writes: Subscribing to a list means that you give permission for your messages to be sent to all subscribers. Any one of those could save the messages, creating an archive. So posting to the list implies permission for archival. It doesn't give permission to make the archive publicly accessible. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Paul Schmehl writes: So, if I *respond* to one of his posts (including his email address and at least a portion of what he wrote) and therefore have *some* of his copyrighted material in my post then he can request that *my* post be removed *without* my permission? Not if your backquoting falls within the scope of fair use, if you are in the U.S. In some other countries, he can require that you remove the backquotes from your post (but you don't need to remove your entire post). And if you backquote too much, it's infringement, not fair use, even in the U.S. Do you now see anything wrong with this? No. It actually happens. Before you start spouting legal advice on a public list, I would suggest that you point to chapter and verse that *specifically* addresses posts made to a public forum that *explicitly* states that such posts will be archived and *explicitly* states that you have the right to request their removal *and* the right to sue if the archiving party refuses to remove them. Furthermore, you must first prove that post made to a public forum are protected by copyright laws. Any creative work fixed in a tangible medium is protected by copyright by default. Any form of reproduction of a copyrighted work requires the permission of its creator, _except_ as otherwise provided by law. That's the way the law is written. No exceptions are made for archival of mailing lists in publicly accessible archives (nor for any other use of messages to mailing lists, AFAIK). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Kirk Strauser writes: So, how's that working out for you with non-US third-party mirrors that aren't subject to American law in any way? The DMCA cannot be used against them directly, but if their traffic transits through servers or networks in the U.S., you can go after the U.S. providers. It's more complicated than the simple case of notifying the infringing site directly. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Al Johnsonn writes: This advice is more ridiculous than telling him to put aerosol spray back into a can. Where's the flaw in it? That's what the DMCA is for. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Clifton Royston writes: There are specific safe-harbor provisions for ISPs and networks which are merely transiting and/or caching traffic. Hmm ... yes, my mistake, provided that nothing is actually stored on the networks in question. I have to believe you've never actually implemented any of the strategies and claims you're pontificating about. I haven't sent out any DMCAs thus far. Of course, the best way to ensure you don't look bad in Google is to try hard to post only intelligent questions and comments to mailing lists - for example, by searching web archives of the mailing list or employing common sense - and to post intelligent answers when you have them. Not acting like a buffoon will go a long way on the Net. Of course that may be just too hard for a few people. The only thing one really needs to avoid is personal attacks. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Paul Schmehl writes: Here's a webpage that makes your arguments laughable: http://www.umuc.edu/distance/odell/cip/listserv.html It's a mailing list to discuss digital copyright. Its archives are searchable, and there's no requirement to agree to that when you subscribe. What's so funny about it? This one is even funnier: http://www.copyright.gov/newsnet/ Searchable archives going back to 1997. See above. You *still* haven't provided *one* link to prove anything you've said. Copyright law isn't good enough? On the Internet, that's tantamount to an admission that you're blowing smoke. No, it's not. I see people posting links all the time (hmm), and posting links typically doesn't prove anything. You can find a link to prove just about anything you want on the Internet. I doubt seriously your *extremely* strict interpretation of copyright would hold up in any court of law in the US or anywhere else for that matter. Your doubts are not important. It's what actually happens in court that's important. I have no doubt that you could find a judge somewhere to rule in your favor. I don't know. After all, judges make incredibly stupid rulings daily. Maybe you should advise them, so that they can benefit from your wisdom, and your collection of Web links. But in the end, your argument would fall on deaf ears when saner minds were engaged. I'm not so sure. I think it better to be safe than sorry. When you post to a public list, your post are not copyrighted material. They exist in the public domain. False. Anything you write is copyrighted as soon as you record it. It never enters the public domain unless you release it explicitly to the public domain or the copyright expires (70 years after your death). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Tomas Quintero writes: Theres just one more big problem with this, and all the DMCA stuff. I don't think Fafa is in America. I don't think he'd be a US Citizen either. Fafa, can you claim otherwise? I mean all indications in his sig hint towards him being a citizen of another country. It's possible to submit DMCA notifications from outside the U.S., if the potential infringement is inside the U.S. Additionally, even without the DMCA, the basic rules of copyright still apply. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Absolutely! Copyright doesn't protect anyone from making a fool out of themselves. So I see. But that is not the purpose of copyright. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Chris writes: Hahaha - good stuff! Yanno, last I knew (and that was some time ago) You had to submit writings for review to the copyright folks here in the U.S. It has never been that way. Copyright exists in any work fixed in a tangible medium at the time of its creation. No formalities are necessary. Then, if they deem it so, you then had to pay a fee to have it copyrighted. No, you do not. You may be confusing copyright with patents or trademarks. As I said - this may or may not be the case any longer ... It has never been the case. ... I didn't know that just by writing something, you were grandted all the nifty perks of it being copywritten. As a matter of fact, just by writing something, you implicitly receive all the benefits of copyright (not copywriting, which is something entirely different). No formalities are necessary. Then again - I'm not a lawyer. And to be frank, I couldn't care less either. So it seems. It's worthwhile to at least make an effort not to infringe on the copyrights of others, though, as litigation can be costly. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Danny Pansters writes: Which shows how bad cratic souvereign counties are gettingthey're accepting US corp law as their own. Copyright law is fairly consistent in the industrialized world. Anyway, stuff your DMCA.. until we have a valid precedent for it I'd say stuff it. There's already a lot of jurisprudence to draw upon. What if it's the US DMCA against a big French software house (assuming you have one). How would you think your gov would react? I suppose my government would either apply French copyright law if the infringement were in France, or U.S. copyright law (i.e., the DMCA) if the infringement were in the U.S. Now go back to someone complaining about their want-on sent messages being archived... yeah sure they would cave in. Dream on. It's surprising what courts care about sometimes. And besides as other people have pointed out in the realm of cyberspace once you post something willingly, it's impossible to retain it and any perceived profit that would have been generated by it (yes, the court will ask about this loss of profit). It's a loosing shipwreck trying to go to court for that. You can still obtain relief in various forms. It may just end up as what most people would expect: considered fair use ... I'm not aware of any cases in which reproduction of an entire work has been held to be fair use; fair use is usually interpreted pretty narrowly. ... and if it doesn't it's going to loose over technicalities alone, like when you answer back quoting the original message. Were you breaking copyrights? That's not a technicality, nor is it relevant to the main question. No judge is going to do that dance, not even in the crazy paranoid corporate stronghold culture we live in these days. Forget it. You don't know what a judge will do until you're in court. Still... would the OP please try to sue so that we get a nice jurisdiction about this. Rather now than later. Be careful what you wish for. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Alex de Kruijff writes: In my country forcing you way in to a computer system is a criminal act. It can be compared to breaking in to a house. It is in most countries. However, persons prosecuted for such crimes have mounted successful defenses based on the fact that they were never explicitly told that the systems they penetrated were legally accessible only to authorized users. Thus, careful sysadmins today explicitly display a message at login telling the user that only authorized users are permitted to access the system. Many operating systems even make special provisions for this. Here there are even rules about recording on the street. The (security) camera's can't be pointed to a house in sucha way that it would single out anyone inside. Also anyone recorded on the street have rigth that they can use to prevent them being on TV. It not used very much, but it exist. Those are image rights, as opposed to photography rights. In many jurisdictions, there are no restrictions on photography in public, but you may still need property or model releases before actually using the images taken in public for certain purposes. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Alex de Kruijff writes: Where these persons prosecuted lately? No. The first I heard of these problems was probably a good 20 years ago or so, and they probably predated that. Nevertheless, it is standard practice to include such warnings today. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Mailinglist privacy: MY NAME ALL OVER GOOGLE!
Danny Pansters writes: Yeah it's also remarkably about (perceived) profit and not about personal expression (at all). Copyright has nothing to do with freedom of expression although they're often linked (by the wrong parties usually). Whatever the motivations behind it, it is still the law. I know that the geek community likes to affect a total disregard for the rule of law, but the rest of the world is fortunately not so inclined. No not on general textual copyright and certainly not on casually (re)produced text in a context where one can expect it to be reused even being told it will be. Got one? Nothing comes immediately to mind. A domain without established precedents is always dangerous ground. DMCA is more about patents than about copyrights anyway ... The DMCA has nothing to do with patents. Patents are distinct from copyrights. Unless OP slaps a license on her postings it's all moot and considered public domain. No, it is not; this is a very prevalent misconception. Perhaps our mailing lists when you enter it or log on via the web pages should have a public domain or BSD or else if named policy laid out right there which applies to postings, especially when people sign up. That way we can avoid this babble which comes up ever so often. It would be simple enough to require that subscribers agree to public archives or other conditions as a prerequisite to joining a list. They'd choose the option that makes the most profit, you fool. The government does not stand to profit in these cases, whatever the decision taken. What else? The public interest is a strong motivator, and the need to maintain order. And I reckon they never be in disagreement because they can freely decide which law to use? Broken system only beneficial to US/F authorities and multinationals it seems. But hey if you're happy with that... very democratic. I'm afraid I don't understand many of your comments. Yeah about me legally marrying my male partner or not. Marriage is not relevant to the question under discussion. Let's leave (court) politics alone, both you and I have a reasonable idea about what is accepted in and what isn't. Not necessarily. As you have already implied, specific jurisprudence in this domain is lacking, although there are precedents in related situations. I'm in Holland and France isn't that different (in many cases better). As far as I know, the FreeBSD organization is based in the U.S., so Holland and France are irrelevant. You need relief not me, and hopefully it will stay that way. I didn't have anyone specific in mind. Well, your awareness luckily isn't any measure. I am better informed than most in this domain. So that's why you don't go into it I guess. Correct. Oh no, I want it now rather than later. Later will be worse even if with less merit. Will you, as you argue so strongly in favor? By all means, do it. It's much better than the (admitted) uncertainty we're in now over lots of legal subjects. I don't understand this, either. The BSD way is clarity first, so we would benifit even if it would be a short term regression. Let OP sue and pay for the procedures, that would be nice. It's not nice when you're the party that has to pay damages. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clock running fast
James Alexander Cook writes: I might be wrong here, but doesn't NTP only make occasional adjustments to the system clock? It tries to slew the clock as smoothly as possible to bring it into alignment with the correct time. It does not make sudden large changes to the clock. If your clock runs twice as fast as normal, it would jump to the correct time every time ntpd corrected it, but in between automatic adjustments, the time would become wildly innacurate. If your clock is that far off, it would be difficult for NTP (or anything else) to correct it often enough to keep it running smoothly with the correct time. You're talking about an accuracy of 50%, whereas even bad PC real-time clocks usually have an accuracy of better than 99.9%. If NTP sees that it cannot discipline the clock successfully, it will say so and give up, IIRC. The real mystery is why the clock is running so fast. Also, wouldn't a problem like this make your system try to play movies at twice the frame rate, and things like that? NTP is worth a try, but I doubt if it will fix things like that. I don't think the real-time clock comes into play for multimedia work, but I might be wrong. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clock running fast
Charles Swiger writes: Try changing the kern.timecounter.hardware sysctl; you can look at the available choices via: sysctl kern.timecounter.choice So what do the choices mean? How are they used? On one machine, I see TSC, ACPI-fast, i8254, and dummy as choices, and ACPI-fast is selected (this is a P4 machine). On the other, older machine (a 2-processor Pentium Pro), I see TSC, i8254, and dummy, and i8254 is selected. I presume that TSC is a real-time clock based on the processor TSC, and I presume also that i8254 is such a clock based on the classic i8254 timer, but what is dummy, and what is ACPI-fast? What are the pros and cons of selecting different choices? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clock running fast
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Anthony, you really need to look in the code sometime: It takes a very long time to find relevant sections of code, and unless the author was very conscientious, there are usually few or no explanatory comments, anyway. /usr/src/sys/dev/acpica/acpi_timer.c Thanks. * If all tests of the counter succeed, use the ACPI-fast method. If * at least one failed, default to using the safe routine, which reads * the timer multiple times to get a consistent value before returning. Whatever that means. /usr/src/sys/i386/isa/clock.c /usr/src/sys/i386/i386/tsc.c Thanks /* * We can not use the TSC if we support APM. Precise timekeeping * on an APM'ed machine is at best a fools pursuit, since * any and all of the time spent in various SMM code can't * be reliably accounted for. Reading the RTC is your only * source of reliable time info. The i8254 looses too of course * but we need to have some kind of time... * We don't know at this point whether APM is going to be used * or not, nor when it might be activated. Play it safe. */ Hmm. I think APM is turned off on my machine, at least that's what FreeBSD says. The manual for the MB doesn't say anything about SMI use. I don't like the idea of a motherboard stealing cycles from my machine; it sounds way too much like a virus, and a virus built into the hardware is the worst nightmare. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clock running fast
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: It is probably a tossup between the i8254 driver taking cycles to run and an internal kernel counter based off the CPU clock taking cycles to run. I was talking about SMM, which steals cycles invisibly and also allows mystery software to run in the BIOS. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Clock running fast
Ryan Winograd writes: Hi all, I recently noticed that the system clock on a machine i recently set up is running very quickly, about 2x realtime by my measuring. What can i do to solve/investigate this problem? What information would be helpful? If the machine has network access to an NTP server, you can install and run the Network Time Protocol (NTP) daemon to discipline and synchronize the clock on the machine. It works very well, holding the clock accurate to with a tiny fraction of a second (milliseconds, in good conditions). Twice real time does sound odd, though. Clocks are often off by many seconds a day, but running at twice normal speed sounds like something may be wrong. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: longest uptime
Joshua Tinnin writes: An long-unpatched FreeBSD install on a DMZ server makes me a bit more edgy than knowing the uptime will reset to zero when it's rebooted after updating. Is FreeBSD so insecure that it must be patched every few days? I hardly ever see FreeBSD security issues on Bugtraq, and the ones I see often have nothing to do with Net attacks. A properly configured FreeBSD server with no local logins should be quite secure. The only problem I've ever had resulted from a bug in Apache, and Apache obviously isn't part of FreeBSD. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: WRITE_DMA problem again
arax writes: I was just wondering if there's a solution to fix the WRITE_DMA problem. I've searched the archives but couldn't find a complete answer to this, like why it's happening and what to do about it. I'd appreciate any help. I had the same problem (same logical device, in fact, and also on FreeBSD 5.3) and it turned out to be a bad drive. I was able to verify this by downloading the vendor's standalone test software, booting it on the server, and running exhaustive tests against the drive. On the full test, the software hung (whereas it worked fine on the other, identical drive that I had configured on the system). Since this was a bootable disk and FreeBSD wasn't even in the system, this ruled out FreeBSD. I reluctantly replaced the drive (which was only 60 days old or so) with an identical model, and I've had no problems since. It seems that this doesn't do any harm to my system, but I'm not sure because at this time the system is under no load at all. These errors just appear from time to time. I would like to fix this before I move the server into production. The problem eventually corrupted some structure on my drive, but apparently the system was able to recover most of it. The drive worked well enough to allow me to run full backups before replacing it. Fortunately, there wasn't much on it. If your disk vendor offers bootable test software, download that and test the drive exhaustively offline. If it fails or hangs, you have your answer: replace the drive. If it passes with flying colors, then you'll have to look back to FreeBSD. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD vs Linux
koen de wijs writes: I'm new to unix. This year I tried FreeBSD. Some friend of mine adviced FreeBSD. I think it works great. Only one thing that I don't like is that you will need to know a lot to setup a lot of basic stuff. That is the nature of UNIX. I want to try out Linux. I heard it is more user friendly and the basic stuff will be set up during installation. Some distributions are. If you want to use UNIX without knowing how it works, Linux is a good choice. I really don't like the sysinstall menu. It is really unlogically. Why isn't there a desktop and a server installation? Because FreeBSD, like most other versions of UNIX, is intended for people who are familiar with UNIX. Additionally, FreeBSD, like most other versions of UNIX, works best as a server. If you want a desktop, Linux is probably a better choice. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD vs Linux
Bart Silverstrim writes: I'm afraid after playing with both FreeBSD and some different distros of Linux, that easy way isn't necessarily Linux either. Some of them are apparently much closer to the plug-and-play environment of Windows than are any versions of UNIX. Logically anyone who wants Windows will install Windows, instead of Linux, of course, but logic isn't always the deciding factor. The only easy way to go with installing things on a computer would have to be Windows (in the Intel world), since it is most often just a matter of clickclickclickclick done. Yes. And if an Intel platform is not mandatory, the Mac is even easier to install and use--but it is more expensive, and it restricts the user to a single vendor for both OS software and hardware, and the range of available applications is much smaller. Windows will usually run for several weeks ... Current versions of Windows will run for years without a reboot. It has to be easy to set up because you end up having to reinstall when it starts acting weird :-) It doesn't start acting weird unless you contaminate it with spyware and viruses, which are easy enough to avoid. Really though; with Windows, it's a matter of I want a web server...down load web server...click click license yeah yeah click... oooh! Web server! I wouldn't use Windows for a Web server, personally, but a server version of the OS with IIS will get the job done. The point-and-click interface hides a lot of complexity, though, and while this isn't such a bad thing on the desktop, it can be dangerous on a server. On servers it's really important to know exactly what's running on the machine, what it's doing, and how the machine is interacting with the Net. With a Unix system it's I want a web server...googlehmm...Apache looks like it should work...search through portsmake installedit config file...what's this do?...oh...googlegoogle...neat!...edit config...what's this directive?...googleokay...edit...save...apachectl start...web server with X, Y, Z enabled, ,listening on port X, logging to Y, with virtual host Z. WEB SERVER! Far too complex for many newbies, but for those who stay the course, FreeBSD and Apache are the best possible combination for Web servers today. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: FreeBSD vs Linux
Kevin Kinsey writes: And I see no reason why it couldn't be expanded to do a lot of other stuff as well. Scripting is just doing what you'd do yourself in code, so you can do something else, after all... Keep in mind that flexibility and automation are always mutually exclusive. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Well, for what it's worth, I was doing some inverse traceroutes yesterday, and it does appear that Indian ISPs take quite a tortuous route from point to point. A traceroute from one Indian ISP (Net4India, the only one I could even reach, which is already a bit worrisome) went from India to Singapore to Tokyo to San Jose to New York to Paris, with a cumulative delay of 418 ms. It actually nearly went around the world: 1 gw-mum (202.71.136.62) 1.439 ms 0.658 ms 0.820 ms 2 61.95.151.1 (61.95.151.1) 4.370 ms 2.937 ms 3.521 ms 3 61.95.150.34 (61.95.150.34) 3.681 ms 7.069 ms 7.438 ms 4 61.95.150.21 (61.95.150.21) 4.079 ms 6.854 ms 5.343 ms 5 203.101.100.41 (203.101.100.41) 27.754 ms 26.166 ms 27.516 ms 6 61.95.180.18 (61.95.180.18) 25.200 ms 24.482 ms 26.841 ms 7 203.208.146.49 (203.208.146.49) 58.020 ms 58.099 ms 60.815 ms 8 ge-3-0-0.sngc3-cr1.ix.singtel.com (203.208.172.157) 60.545 ms ge-2-0-0.sngc3-cr2.ix.singtel.com (203.208.172.165) 58.701 ms ge-3-0-0.sngc3-cr1.ix.singtel.com (203.208.172.157) 58.281 ms 9 p1-0.sngtp-cr2.ix.singtel.com (203.208.172.129) 56.361 ms 92.429 ms p4-0.sngtp-cr3.ix.singtel.com (203.208.172.125) 60.439 ms 10 so-0-1-2.toknf-cr2.ix.singtel.com (203.208.173.94) 151.952 ms 203.208.172.230 (203.208.172.230) 146.167 ms 219.727 ms 11 p1-0-0.toknf-cr1.ix.singtel.com (203.208.173.21) 155.577 ms 147.855 ms 157.366 ms 12 P3-0.TKYBB1.Tokyo.opentransit.net (193.251.254.29) 157.024 ms 148.086 ms 153.658 ms 13 P1-2.SJOCR1.San-jose.opentransit.net (193.251.242.206) 246.231 ms 247.064 ms 257.645 ms 14 P14-0.NYKCR2.New-york.opentransit.net (193.251.242.1) 330.534 ms 348.584 ms 344.785 ms 15 P1-0.AUVCR2.Aubervilliers.opentransit.net (193.251.241.137) 423.633 ms 422.628 ms 414.842 ms 16 pos9-0.nraub303.Aubervilliers.francetelecom.net (193.251.126.9) 415.860 ms 428.651 ms 417.621 ms 17 pos0-0-0-0.ncidf303.Aubervilliers.francetelecom.net (193.252.103.169) 425.146 ms 431.029 ms 423.044 ms 18 80.10.215.202 (80.10.215.202) 424.796 ms 417.172 ms 418.653 ms A trace from Japan went through Dallas, Atlanta, and Oakhill, but I guess that isn't too bad, although it's hardly a straight line. A trace from Russia was amazingly direct. Spain reached my machine in just 39 ms, via London. But the most impressive was CERN in Switzerland, which reached my machine in eight hops and 8 ms. This doesn't necessarily mean that Indian ISPs route domestic traffic outside the country, but I noticed that happening for other countries that should have better infrastructures, so certainly it would not surprise me. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Encryption of login passwords--where and how is it done?
Where's the actual code that accepts the input of a password and/or encrypts it? I looked in login.c, but that only seems to call PAM or something; from that point on, I wasn't sure where to look. I'm especially interested in knowing how a very long password (up to the FreeBSD limit of, I think, 128 characters) is hashed and mashed into an encrypted password, but I'm also generally interested in the whole process. I'd like to think that a 128-byte password consisting of random words and special characters would be just as secure as a shorter, completely random password, but that's only true if FreeBSD is hashing the entire 128-byte string in some cryptographically secure way in order to produce an encrypt password that is a function of every bit of the plaintext password. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Encryption of login passwords--where and how is it done?
Chris writes: Ummm - Somehow, somewhere, I was always taught that the longer the password, the better. So, how can a short passward (say 10 bytes) be as secure as a 128 byte? It depends on how the password is encrypted and stored. A short, random password may be more secure than a long, less-random password--especially if the password logic discards all characters beyond a certain point, or doesn't hash the entire password in a way that maximizes the extraction of entropy from the password. For example, on a system that uses only the first eight bytes of a password, you'd want a pretty random string of eight bytes, like uhhxuapo48, but on a system that accepts 128 bytes and pumps them through a message digest algorithm to maximize the amount of randomness it extracts from the string, you could use something like tiles cloven thru *STARZ/, and zen pop-tarts conceal, and get something that is both easier to remember _and_ more secure (because it provides more bits of entropy if properly processed). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
RW writes: Most UK ISPs wont even touch Linux. If I'd tried to ask my ISP to setup FreeBSD, I'd have to go through an Indian call-centre where I'd get asked which versions of Windows and Internet Explorer I'm using. Why do you need an ISP's help to set up FreeBSD, anyway? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Subhro writes: You got it wrong. *I* being old hands at FreeBSD, don't require their help. But if I install FBSD on my little sisters PC, she would be requiring some help. If I am around, thats not a problem. But if I am not, the first place she would go to is the ISP, which i very much expected. But unfortunately they are completely clueless. One cannot expect ISPs to know about every operating system available. It's hard enough just to support Windows, the most popular desktop OS around. Some companies might have the resources to support Macs, but not many. Hardly anyone can afford to support anything else. On the other hand, if ISPs didn't try so hard to hide the interfaces with their service and didn't try to personalize the connections so much, anyone would be able to connect to any ISP with any OS. But ISPs seem loath to admit that their basic services are highly interchangeable, and so they create an unnecessary support load for themselves by trying to be an exception to every rule. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Subhro writes: Well the main issue is, bandwidth is very very costly in India. The amount of bandwidth that would cost 40 USD in US would cost around 350 USD in India. All the more reason to have a mirror in India. The shorter the distance to cover, the faster the transfer is likely to be, and the lower the cost. If there are people in India who want to download FreeBSD, then an Indian mirror is a very good idea, _especially_ if bandwidth is expensive. Additionally, a mirror site in India could burn CDs locally and hand them out, subject to licensing restrictions. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Subhro writes: Good idea Brian. But the saddest part is as I have indicated above, Linux rules :-( and FreeBSD is for the heavy duty software professionals. Starting burning some CDs and handing them out, and maybe that will change (eventually). FreeBSD is real UN*X (except for the trademark), and it should whip Linux as a server without any difficulty. So if there are organizations in India that want to set up servers at little or no cost, FreeBSD is their wish come true. And FreeBSD skills are transferable to other UNIX operating systems more directly than Linux skills, which are becoming increasingly specific to that community. The main sources for software in India is either markets (read pirates) or CDs accompanying computer magazines. And this is a fact that thoes magazines never speak of FreeBSD. Odd that they so readily deal in pirated software, but they so rarely speak of software that is already free to begin with! Personally I find it much more easier to install FreeBSD than to install any popular public version of Linux like Red Hat, Fedora, Mandrake But the FreeBSD installer is definitely not as appealing as the Mandrake installer. For a newbie, pretty looking toolbars with nothing underneath is always more appealing than a text mode installer with loads of information in it. Skip the newbies and introduce IT professionals to FreeBSD. Tell your ISP about it--I daresay they could find a great many uses for a reliable UN*X server, especially when the software is free. It's got to be better than Red Hat, which is what they apparently run now. Another example for most modern distribution like SuSe or Fedora is whenever some application dies when it is not supposed to, it tries sending out bug reports and and taking preventive measures. I understand we can simply make a script to watch over the logs and do these neat tricks. But out of the box most applicatipons dont do that. This thing also turns off the newcomer. Most of the 35,481,847 Linux distributions available this week target the desktop, although none of them can hold a candle Windows in this respect. They are thus solutions looking for problems, since anyone who wants a real desktop will run Windows, and since Linux fans often seem unable to see their favorite distributions in a serious server role. So you get all the junk one might expect with a wannabe Windows OS, and none of the basic simplicity you need with a server. If you want a desktop --- install Windows (or a Mac). If you want a server --- install FreeBSD. If you want religion --- install Linux. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Subhro writes: We are changed per minute both by the Carrier company and the ISP. Apparently Indian companies are working so hard to help China dominate the IT world. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Subhro writes: True, bust most Universities have things like 5 128K links tagged together. Put this down plain and simple, bandwidth is really really scarce in India. That has to change, and soon. There's no cure for a shortage of bandwidth except more bandwidth. Lay the fiber and light it. Right. But most Universities are simply not interested and tag BSD as not for the masses OS. THey are right. No version of UNIX is for the masses, nor is Linux. But for servers, UNIX has an edge in many situations (not so much Linux). For the masses, Windows is best; if Windows is not available, then I suppose Linux would be better than nothing (but not much better). In the Indian Scenario, a handful of *BSD users are considered Wizards and non Microsoft OS implies Linux. I thought India was supposed to be speeding ahead in IT; it doesn't sound like it's even in the running from what you're saying. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
N. Raghavendra writes: Traffic between two hosts located in India is usually routed through US or European networks. Why?? A `whois' lookup for 208.192.183.149, says that the address belongs to UUNET Technologies, Inc., VA, US. The address 134.159.128.42 belongs to Reach Networks HK Ltd, Hong Kong. As I understand it, this means that traffic from Allahabad goes to the US, and then to Hong Kong, before it reaches Bombay. The IT equivalent of the proverbial slow boat to China. At least most of the world's secret services get a peak at all Indian traffic, I guess. Therefore, the geographical proximity of two hosts within India does not imply their proximity on the Internet. Is digging a ditch and laying fiber between them out of the question? In addition to such routing troubles, most Indian sites suffer from severe bandwidth paucity. Because it doesn't exist, or because telecoms and ISPs are gouging them with their pricing? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: India had no FreeBSD mirror sites ?!?
Robert Huff writes: As I understand it, in India it's Not That Simple. Operations which take eight weeks and three signatures in the U. S. or U. K. can take years and dozens of signatures ... and if you run into a corrupt official, good luck. If that's true, the only losers are the Indians. And their main competitor, the sleeping giant to the east, isn't going to wait for them to get their act together. But I suppose that has nothing to do with FreeBSD. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can I log every login via telnet?
Sandy Rutherford writes: See login.access(5) and login.conf(5). Both provide this functionality. I've tried this and I've obtained weird results. Supposedly login stops at the first match in the login.access file. So I used this: +:ALL:console +:ALL:LOCAL +:xxx yyy:ALL EXCEPT 216.134.77.112 161.13.67.41 -:ALL:ALL The idea is to prohibit any logins from anywhere except the LAN and console for all users except xxx and yyy (and even for those two logins are not accepted from two specific IP addresses). But as soon as I add the -:ALL:ALL at the end, logins are disallowed for everyone except xxx and yyy, even on the LAN, and even with ssh. I'm perplexed. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cross-development of Windows 32-bit applications under FreeBSD?
Is it possible to develop and build native Windows 32-bit applications under FreeBSD, using only command-line tools like gcc and other open-source components? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Cross-development of Windows 32-bit applications under FreeBSD?
Michael S writes: I don't know whether it is possible with only FreeBSD, however you can check whether you can run Visual Studio under the Wine emulator or use one of those cross-platform toolkits such as Qt or WxWidgets. The latter one will not give you Win32 binaries, but it's quite easy to port the code to Windows. I'm trying to avoid Visual(Anything) since it costs around $2900, and that's hard to justify for just playing around with little applications. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
How can I log every login via telnet?
Is there a way to log every login via telnet? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can I log every login via telnet?
Sandy Rutherford writes: Check /var/log/auth.log. They should be logged there by default. Thanks, that's just what I was looking for. You could also use tcpwrappers for better control over access and logging. See /etc/hosts.allow and man 5 hosts_options. I'd be mainly interested in restricting which user names can log on from the Net through telnet, rather than which IP addresses. Also, securing the traffic over the telnet session is unimportant (including passwords), because none of the telnet use would involve anything confidential. I mainly want to ensure that only a select handful of users can actually log in through telnet, and that those uses cannot escape to a shell by any means or otherwise stray outside the program that I want to run immediately upon login. I've tweaked my test program to eliminate possible buffer overflows on input and it has no facility for escaping to a shell, and it does virtually no file I/O and only to hard-coded paths, so hopefully it's not too much of a risk. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Hyperthreading not working on my 5.3 FreeBSD
Ed Stover writes: don't you need apic as well ? device apic# I/O APIC I didn't have to add it on my machine, so presumably it is there by default in the generic configuration. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: HZ=1000 ?
Emanuel Strobl writes: Sorry, a bit OT, but I'm really impressed how constant power line frequency is. It isn't just in Germany. A number of power utilities work hard to keep line frequency extremely constant, specifically for the purpose of allowing the frequency to be used to discipline clocks. Still, I think you can do far better with NTP. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: vesa 1024x768 mode in future version? to the freebsd community
Didier Wiroth writes: May be other users think the same? I'd definitely like to see text modes with higher resolution. I don't really care about graphics, but I'd like to be able to squeeze more text onto the console. I'd also like a better choice of fonts to improve readability, and a better choice of colors for text and backgrounds. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: just got DSL, can't surf or get mail
cape canaveral writes: dhclient will overwrite /etc/resolv.conf on boot Then perhaps dhclient.conf is the culprit; an alternative is to stop running dhclient, but only if the machine's own IP address is static. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Securely allowing just one application via telnet
If I want to allow external users to log on under only one permissible username, which immediately and unconditionally executes only one program (no shell access), via telnet, what is the most secure way to set this up? I've always understood telnet to be somewhat of a Pandora's box for security, but I don't know if that applies to the protocol itself, or to telnetd, or if it just refers to the many dangers of shell access, or what. If there is a way to secure this type of access, I'd like to try it on my test server (I won't risk the production server, of course), as an exercise in setting up custom environments. Any suggestions on how best to do this securely? If a specific user is restricted to a specific program at login (via /etc/passwd), is there _any_ way he can sneak out to a shell, assuming that the program he is forced to run does _not_ provide shellout access? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Digital Cameras
Sergei Gnezdov writes: Is there a chance to get digital camers working with FreeBSD? All I need is load images from camera using USB port. You might be better off removing the card and using a card reader. Card reader specs are much more generalized and consistent than digital camera specs. If the type of card/reader your camera uses is unsupported by FreeBSD, at least you have a better chance of getting support for it in the future than you would for a specific model of a specific camera. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Which mail server is the best for me?
Pat Maddox writes: sendmail is insecure ... Why? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Hyperthreading not working on my 5.3 FreeBSD
faisal gillani writes: Well the output of my dmesg command is only showing 1 processor , HT is enabled in bios , working on windows XP on the same PC. what can be wrong ? is there anyway to enable it ? Recompile the kernel with options SMP You should then see the second logical processor come online with no problems after installing the new kernel and rebooting. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: device_polling
dick hoogendijk writes: I build a kernel with devoce_polling and hz=1000 and experimented a bit. Using netstat -w 1 I see a drop in performance. In/output is about 20% higher if polling is disabled. That was not what I expexted. I really thought polling would be better. I use cheap rl (realtec 8139) cards. How fast is the processor on your system? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: just got DSL, can't surf or get mail
Brian John writes: Hello, I just got an xDSL system. In Windows I can browse the internet and do whatever I want just fine. However, in FreeBSD the only things that work are my p2p programs. Azureus and amule work fine, they both connect and download. However, when I try to use dillo, Firefox or Thunderbird they always timeout when trying to access the net. Are you sure your ISP doesn't block any ports or force any traffic through proxy servers? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: just got DSL, can't surf or get mail
Brian John writes: Now, if I change it to this (using my secondary DNS server from my DSL modem's 'setup' page): search domain.actdsltmp nameserver 205.171.2.65 ...everything works. Is there a way that I could keep this from changing every time that I reboot my computer? One you've changed resolv.conf, it should stay that way permanently across boots, unless you change it again. Open a command window in Windows and type ipconfig -all. There should be a list of DNS servers somewhere in the output. Put that same list in your resolv.conf file. Alternately, if your ISP has given you a list of one or more DNS servers to use, put those in the resolv.conf file (usually these will both be the same). -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: just got DSL, can't surf or get mail
Brian John writes: I don't think so because it works fine in Windows. Wouldn't it not work in windows if that was the case? I understood that you had changed ISP connections also. If you're using the same connection that Windows used, then it's not the ISP. Based on your other posts, it sounds like it was just a simple DNS problem. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bernt Hansson writes: Your machine is NOT on the HCL list. The lnc(4) driver supports the following adapters: * Novell NE2100 * Novell NE32-VL * Isolan AT 4141-0 (16 bit) * Isolan BICC * Isolink 4110 (8 bit) * Diamond HomeFree * Digital DEPCA * Hewlett Packard Vectra 486/66XM * Hewlett Packard Vectra XU If the Ethernet card on the machine is supported, this implies that the machine is supported (otherwise why mention the card?). And not all supported hardware is explicitly mentioned on the list, as the list itself says: FreeBSD/i386 runs on a wide variety of 'IBM PC compatible' machines. Due to the wide range of hardware available for this architecture, it is impossible to exhaustively list all combinations of equipment supported by FreeBSD. Nevertheless, some general guidelines are presented here. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: Sorry guys, I couldn't resist. Bullshit, Anthony! http://msdn.microsoft.com/msdnmag/issues/02/07/SharedSourceCLI/ ...Microsoft built the Shared Source CLI to compile and run on FreeBSD Unix as well as Windows XP... See my comment on FreeBSD being supported on the Vectra XU. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: violation copyright
Rod Sortons.Net writes: I'm working on a website + magazine in Rouen (France) about night : clubs, pubs, concerts ... look at this : http://bistrot.diablotins.free.fr Regarding your copyright legal mention page, this pub uses your logo for commercial reasons. The image of Beastie is copyrighted by the artist who created it, not by the FreeBSD Foundation. Of course, it's protected either way, but it's up to the copyright holder to pursue for infringement. Copyright law is very favorable to copyright holders in France. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: The main point I've been trying to make is that just because FreeBSD's drivers don't support whatever modification has been made in the Adaptec code on the Vectra, does not mean that the FreeBSD driver is broken or has a bug in it. When something doesn't work, it's broken. If you consider a change in firmware to be a hardware problem, then a lack of proper handling of the firmware in the OS must also be a problem. I don't see why the same standards wouldn't apply to both. The key point here, though, is that Windows apparently works correctly with the firmware, whatever changes that firmware may contain. FreeBSD does not. Therefore FreeBSD is broken. But you are correct in that these are trapdoor systems - if you do not install the Compaq/HP-written drivers at the right times during the install, then Windows loads it's default drivers which may or may not (usually not) work. And once loaded you cannot unload them and replace them with the manufacturer-supplied ones because the operating system won't let you do things like unloading the device driver that runs the controller that the system disk is on, things like that. You have to nuke and repave. I often wonder why people even buy servers from these vendors when they have so much vendor-specific junk on them. I suppose there isn't much competition. It seems to me that it should be possible to build equally good servers with entirely off-the-shelf, standard components, and no magic firmware or software. But vendors apparently cannot resist changing _something_. I think Dell is the same way, though. I suspect all the name brand systems are - that is why people buy name-brand server systems, to get the extra little features like the preemptive disk failure monitoring, the case-open/case-closed, temperature, fanspeed, power supply voltage monitoring, and all the other proprietary little features. I suppose it's seductive initially, but after fighting with proprietary hardware and software for a while, it gets old. Forget the case-open switch and the three-dimensional beeping animated temperature monitoring application, and just buy commodity hardware and software. In exchange for sacrificing a few frills, you get something that behaves predictably and can be maintained cheaply without critical dependencies on one supplier. I'm pleased that I built my current server myself out of stuff bought right off the shelf. It may be 1-2% less performant than a name-brand, all-in-one server, but at least I know exactly what's in the machine, and virtually none of it is dependent on any single supplier or single model of hardware component. If I want to buy spare disks, I can get them for 80, and I can choose from a wide variety of brands; if this were a proprietary name-brand machine, I'd have to pay 300 per disk, and I'd be at the mercy of the vendor (if he stopped selling the specially tweaked disks required by his server, I'd be out of luck). That's the problem with my HP machine. It still runs great and may continue to do so for a long time, but if it breaks down, there's no way to fix it, as just plugging in commodity parts won't do. Even the memory had to be ordered special. It's very much like buying the Lexus that comes with the key chip - you get the extra feature of not being able to start the car without a key with a chip in it, with the downside that only Lexus supplies the chipped keys (and charges you up the ass for them of course) Yes. :-) Actualy I didn't cover that. Manufacturers put these proprietary things in their server products because they are features that are very useful to organizations that run hundreds if not thousands of servers all over the country or the world - with the caveat of course that every server has to be the same model and come from that same manufacturer to get the full benefit of the little fancy features. But to most of us who don't run these large networks, these features do nothing at best, and are an annoyance at worst. The trend in the IT industry has always been away from proprietary and towards commodity. The fancy little features eventually disappear over time. And they often are not missed. The HP disk sector atomicity thing was a great feature if you had disks on an external cabinet that didn't have a UPS on it. Sure, laugh, but when you have a large HP minicomputer with a disk pack the size of a refrigerator that has 50 scsi disks in it, that consumes 15Kw, you don't just go down and grab a UPS from Office Depot. But naturally for small PC's it was a completely stupid and useless feature which is why no other disk manufacturer bothered to license HP's patent on it. What does sector atomicity do? While I can't of course say that the Adaptec microcode in Anthony's server was modified to support this particular feature, clearly HP had some fancy feature support in mind which is why they tampered with the microcode to begin
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
dick hoogendijk writes: Wrong. Windows does /not/ work correctly with the firmware if you let it use it's own drivers (like FreeBSD does). /Both/ OS's choke then! Sorry, but that's incorrect. For eight years I ran a completely standard retail version of Windows NT on the machine, straight off the shelf. No special drivers required. I never had any problems. Right. Plus Windows as well as FreeBSD will run on it flawlessly. I haven't tried Windows on a home-made box, but FreeBSD seems to run on it without any trouble. Apparently FreeBSD does have a problem with the on-board gigabit Ethernet interface on this motherboard, but I just plugged in my existing 3Com 100 Mbps Ethernet card and configured that instead, and the problem went away. So what's your point in all those previous messages if you knew so well what was the correct attitude in buying hardware? My point was that FreeBSD doesn't work on the machine. I wanted to know why. I still don't know why it doesn't work on the machine. Apparently nobody here really knows how FreeBSD works. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: I disagree - If FBSD does not (or did not) know of the HP/Compaq tweakes in the microcode, how can you claim it's broken? Because it works with Windows NT. If MS does not support or have a driver for so-and-so app or hardware, does it also mean Windows is broken? No, but if the base code in the OS fails to handle the hardware properly, Windows is broken. As for drivers, it depends on the hardware. Nobody has demonstrated to me that the hardware on this machine is so exotic that it cannot be supported with standard drivers thus far. And the copy of Windows I ran came right off the shelf; it was not a tweaked version from HP (such a version came preinstalled, but the first thing I did with the hardware was wipe the hard disk). According to you, it is. According to the vast majority, it's not broken, it's merely unsupported. Same thing. And we really don't know if it's supported or not. I _still_ do not know what the messages mean, and neither does anyone else here. Everyone is just _guessing_ and freely speculating in the direction that he finds most pleasing. You could say the same about your hardware based on what you just said, if FBSD does not have the teaks to the driver version you need, then (as you think) your hardware is broken. Yes ... except that it worked with Windows NT. Why not just agree that both FBSD AND your hardware are broken? Oh - I know, it worked for 8 years... Yes. Read above to if MS don't support or have a driver for x, y, and z - then as you say, Windows is broken. Yes. But offhand I don't recall anything for which I was unable to obtain a Windows driver. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: What did they say? MS developers are much like most other developers: it's never their fault. Isn't that how many FOSS projects get started...do some task more efficiently and better? FOSS? Nope, but it sure makes it a lot simpler! Actually it helps hamper finding bugs that allow it to happen. It depends on how the code is written, but I'll agree that most bloated code is written in great haste, with no attention at all given to the many holes that are opened by all those millions of extra lines of deadwood. As has been shown time and time again in Microsoft-sponsored studies comparing Windows to Linux. After removing the power supply and encasing my system in concrete, it is FAR more secure than I've ever dreamt possible, and that was with it running DOS! :-) There's nothing unique about Windows. But more people attack Windows, so more holes are found and exploited. Linux is rapidly catching up. And Mac OS X isn't immune, although I suspect that almost all the holes being found in OS X are in Apple's code, not the base OS. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Ok - I'm about to set the game point and win this one. Anthony, you of all people know that with NT 4, you have learned that one MUST read the HCL (Hardware Compatability List) BEFORE you try to install. That being said, you also know that if it aint on the HCL, you're SOL *Shake your head yes* My machine is on both the Windows and FreeBSD lists. Ok, now - being that you know this, did you check FBSD's version of the HCL BEFORE you installed? No, but I didn't check Windows' list, either. As it happens, it's on both lists. Did it specifically list that adapter WITH the HP/Compaq enhanced microcode? No. But it mentioned the machine, and it didn't list any exclusions. NO - It does not. So, what does that mean? That means it not listed as a supported item. What does that mean? Well - much like the HCL list of NT4, YOU are on your own. In other words, the FreeBSD list is worthless, since if something on the list doesn't work, one can always claim that there is some _specific_ detail about one's hardware that the list didn't _explicitly_ approve. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: In arguing? In operating systems, or more specifically, UNIX versions. I considered installing Solaris, but it won't fit on my disks. I tried installing Mandrake, but it refused to get past the splash screen on installation. At least FreeBSD installed, although it won't boot on its own, and as long as I don't do any disk I/O, it runs fine. So I guess it's already ahead of Solaris and Mandrake Linux, but still way behind Windows NT. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: I think, correct me if I'm wrong Ted (et al), that he's saying the microcode in the hardware was modified, thus has a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller, and the driver/interface in NT either didn't get the error or was *ignoring* the error, whereas FreeBSD, with a driver/interface based on the generic and marketed version of the controller, was saying HELLO, SOMETHING ISN'T RIGHT HERE!, and spewed it to the error logs. That is 100% guesswork. You have no idea why FreeBSD generated the error messages. If you do, then tell me _exactly_ what they mean. If it's just a matter of all-wise FreeBSD detecting a bug that dopey Windows NT missed, why were there never any problems with data loss or corruption under NT, and why did NT never stall as a result of problems with the disks ... and why didn't NT ever crash? FreeBSD not only spews out error messages that nobody understands or can explain, but it stalls, and sometimes it panics. That makes it a hardware problem, unless you modify that driver to ignore the error (like NT does) or get rid of the proprietary and/or possibly failing controller in the first place. If it's an error you can ignored, it's not a hardware problem. If it's a failing controller, well, it's been failing for eight years now, and yet it still works. Because they modify things so they're *almost* off the shelf, but aren't, perhaps? A lot more than almost, I'm afraid. Among other things they do to introduce glitches? What they introduce is mainly incompatibilities. You have to do everything their way, or not at all. If you want to keep insisting on how superior it is, then reinstall it and ignore the warnings. Why is this not an option to consider? Because I'd rather run FreeBSD, if I could just get it to work. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: If a machine with a gig of memory runs fine under DOS but actually has a bad big of memory hardware near the 512 meg address range, it would probably still run flawlessly for a very very long time... This machine has 384 MB of very expensive RAM, and all of it was used by Windows NT. But if you swap the hardware with a replacement and it works, how do you explain Windows being broken when that would suggest it was the hardware that was broken? I don't recall ever swapping anything. I have no reason to believe that a hardware failure has occurred. You never put it on another identical Vectra to prove it was reproducible. Why does it have to be reproducible on another machine? It doesn't work on my machine, and that's sufficient. If you can tell me what all the error messages mean, then please do so. If you can't, you're just throwing darts. The problem being asserted is that the hardware was tweaked. The firmware microcode. No assertion is worthy of my time unless it is preceded by an explanation of the exact meaning of all the error messages I'm seeing. Really? Windows XP must be broken. I can't install it on my Mac. Swap out the hardware and see if it goes away. See if you can reproduce the problem on another Mac. It's possible that Windows uses the hardware much more efficiently than the Mac OS X, and it doesn't run on your machine simply because you have a hardware failure that OS X couldn't detect. Fine. FreeBSD is broken. Reinstall Windows and stop complaining. I'd rather fix FreeBSD. PS-if you can still get a driver for the timex Ironman triathlon watch, care to share the link? I can't seem to find it anymore for the Windows 2000 system to work without some IR interface...I wanted to use the screen to update it still...or is Windows broken because I can't use it anymore? Did it ever work on Windows NT-based systems? All I recall is that it looked like a custom-written trigger for photosensitive epilepsy. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Duo writes: Does it work in XP? Probably, but I'm not going to spend hundreds of euro to find out for sure. Does it work in Linux? I don't know. Mandrake seems to have a problem. I didn't try any of the other 23,441 distros of Linux. Does it work on an Apple Friggin IIe? ? Point is, I have cards that work in FreeBSD, that dont work in XP. I have cards that work in 2000 that do not work in FreeBSD. OK -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: No - NOT the PC - the hardware that's in question. The Adaptec WITH the modified code. I'm willing to bet, it's not. Should I check for restrictions on chipset temperature, relative humidity, and atmospheric pressure as well? Again - I doubt that that perticulare Adaptec WITH the modifide code is listed. Now I'll bet an untouched Adaptec is. Nothing on the list says either way. The PC is NOT the issue. The modified Adaptec IS. FreeBSD is the target, not the controller. No - not worthless - NOT SUPPORTED. Just like the HCL that MS puts out. There are lots of configurations unsupported by Microsoft that will still run Windows without problems. Another thing to understand, most of the HP added code is related to SNMP. That's what HP/Compaq does. Now, you also need to realize that the drivers under NT talk to HAL (Hardware Abstration Layer) which happenes to be far more forgiving of altered code then something under Unix where the driver talks directly to the hardware. Are you saying that Windows NT has a superior design? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Ted Mittelstaedt writes: He is saying that the microcode was modified and that we speculate that the mods contain a bug proprietary to the HP implementation of that controller. What makes it a _bug_? Why would the modified firmware contain a bug ... but not FreeBSD? Or had whatever extra code was needed for the microcode mods. Yes, or approached the hardware in a way that made the modifications irrelevant. Yes, they do - I've got a Compaq professional workstation on my desk at work which has a modded microcode in an Adaptec 2940U adapter card (I know it's modded because the card will not work in any other non-Compaq system, even where non-Compaq-branded 2940U cards will work) that displays similar disk strangeness (although it doesen't spew errors) This is the same scsi chipset as Anthonys Vectra. (aic7880) And what does Compaq give you in exchange for the headache of a non-standard adapter card? Can you replace Compaq's distorted adapter with a standard one, or is it theirs or nothing? This incidentally is WHY I am speculating it's a microcode mod (and it was I that started this line of discussion regarding the microcode on his SCSI chipset) because I have proof positive that modded microcode in other manufacturer's aic7880-based SCSI adapters has problems with the ahc driver. How did you resolve the problem? He doesen't want to run Windows (on this system at least) Correct. It's a more or less spare system and I'm more interesting in getting more experience with UNIX than with getting more experience with Windows. I already know plenty about Windows. He wants the FreeBSD ahc driver modded so that it won't generate errors and SCSI bus resets anymore under FreeBSD. That would be nice, if it's a legitimate bug in the FreeBSD code (which I suspect it is). If it's a regression (i.e., a change that would break the behavior with standard hardware), then the utility of changing it is debatable (although I still wouldn't object to a version that would run on my hardware). In any case, this wonderfully fun experience is pushing me more and more in the direction of home-built hardware, and further and further away from brand-name machines. I'm glad I decided to build my own server instead of buying that IBM eSeries machine. Who knows what problems I might have had with it? Unfortunately, Anthony won't do the least bit of troubleshooting (such as pulling the Quantum disk and just running on the Seagate disk in this system to see if perhaps the problem is execerbated by one or the other implementations of SCSI in one or the other of the disks - granted that is a long shot, but it's within the realm of possibility it might fix it) so I doubt he would do anything that the ahc driver (who most likely isn't even subscribed to freebsd-questions) tells him to do in the way of troubleshooting either. Anything isn't going to do anything until someone can tell him what the existing messages are saying. I don't go pulling boards every time I see a message that I don't recognize. Also long forgotten in this discussion is Anthony stated once on this list that Mandrake Linux wouldn't even install on this Vectra system either. It stops after the splash screen, but I think that is related to the same problem that prevents FreeBSD from booting directly from disk. I am not sure why he's trying to hold FreeBSD up to the driver support of Windows NT when Linux won't even talk to the card in his system. I don't know what Linux will or won't do, and unlike you, I'm not prepared to make wild guesses. I know only that Mandrake Linux will stall after displaying a splash screen, and that's that. ... and we all know that Windows has far better support for the oddest-ballist modifications of standard computer components such as SCSI adapters than FreeBSD does since they have unlimited money to buy oddball samples of hardware to experiment with ... I suspect they just ask the vendor for information on the hardware. Even Microsoft has neither the time nor the money to test every conceivable hardware configuration. A more likely scenario is that the vendor itself writes the driver and then has Microsoft certify it. The certification is pretty rudimentary, IIRC; essentially MS ensures that the system doesn't melt or spew acrid smoke when the driver is invoked and that's about it. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: hyper threading.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you think that then you are either a fool or an old fool.. I've never encountered a situation in which experience was a disadvantage. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: And how do you write software that will be able to communicate with hardware, irrelevent of what changes have been made to that hardware? The hardware and software must agree on a minimum set of standards. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Chris writes: Be realistic Anthony - you know full well that if an item is not listed, its not supported. But it _is_ listed. And unsupported is not synonymous with doesn't work. If' it's not listed - it's not supported - isnt that what MS drills into its user base? Only if they call for support. Even then, they can still get suggestions, sometimes--but MS won't commit to anything on unsupported hardware. You need to realize that you need to retire this whole thread. BTW - as Ted asked, why are you NOT persuing this so rabbidly with Mandrake? I'm not that interested in running Linux. Linux is for kids. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: hyper threading.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thats because you seem unable to grasp modern concepts. None were under discussion. If you think that performance criteria of modern controllers and processors are the same as 30 years ago, then you are incapable of commenting on anything modern. The principles of modern controllers are surprisingly similar to those of old controllers. The biggest change is that the PC world is only now discovering what mainframe designers knew 40 years ago. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: From the way you were complaining, I had the impression that MS was bending backwards to help in issues while the FreeBSD people were immature children. They do a much better job than the FreeBSD project does, no doubt about that. Is this evidence to the contrary, that MS isn't the pinnacle of perfection in dealing with every software issue? No, it's evidence that you never talk to developers when you call the support line. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FLOSS Thanks. Just today I was hoping for some new acronyms, it's been hours since I last encountered one. Especially in projects driven by money and politics in a workplace, and with looming deadlines. Yes, but also in projects with no profit motive at all. Many developers love to write code, but hate to design and test. So they bloat what they write just for their own enjoyment. You can do the job to get it shoved out the door or do the job right. Doing it right often means doing it at a loss. B) The More popular thus more exploited is a crap argument. The statistics seem to support it. Windows was designed for single user non-network desktops. Not Windows NT and its successors. They were designed as network-aware multiuser desktops. They originally had a strong server emphasis, although that has gradually shifted back towards the more profitable desktop, to the detriment of server environments. That 30 year old UNIX was better designed for network sharing and multiple users in scant resources. Yes. Unfortunately it's a poor desktop. If apologists would get their heads out of their butts they'd see that it isn't always There's more Windows, thus easier to exploit!, it's Windows' design is inherently less secure, so it's easier to target!, as well as a healthy dose of the average Windows user is more clueless than the average Linux user! thrown in to boot. It's a bit of all of these, but mostly the number of installed seats and the fact that it's a desktop used by unsophisticated users. Many of the features in the recent The Road to Windows Longhorn 2005 article on Paul Thurrott's Supersite for Windows seems oddly to match many of the features already available on OS X... Many features of OS X seem oddly to match many of the features already available on Windows. Hmm, wonder why...could it be because of the security imposed by UNIX under OS X that makes that kind of model a decent tradeoff of usability and security in the first place? I have to smile when I hear UNIX held up as an example of a secure system. In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king, I suppose. Current Windows systems have a much stronger security model than UNIX; it just isn't used, because users wouldn't be happy if they had to deal with it. If it wasn't such a pain in the butt for Joe Sixpack to use, ideas in EROS would help a helluva lot more on the desktop for security. Security is an inconvenience. Users want mindless interactions. Somewhere it meets in the middle in order to be usable. Yes. But this isn't a problem with the OS. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: It's deduction. It can't be. There's nothing to deduct from. Tell me again what those messages said, exactly? Really? I have a free program running on my NT machines, ntpdate I believe is the name, that just hammers the registry with requests constantly. I'd never have known it was querying it so much if it wasn't for regmon. *Contant* hits. dunno why, doesn't seem to hurt anything...thus I ignore it. NT doesn't seem to care. Only gets in the way when I'm troubleshooting registry errors. So where's the problem? I've already told you I had a scsi bus reset problem what showed up under Linux but not NT several years ago. But you probably ignored that. Did someone fix Linux? I've had power supply fans that have lasted for years despite making odd noises that are indicative of impending failure. It's not unheard of. Years without a failure is not impending failure, no matter what noises you hear. Some fans are inherently noisy. That's nice. Some hardware is being a pain. People here either ignore you at this point or tell you to replace that controller and/or disks and see what it takes from there. Yes. But I'm still hoping that someone might provide a truly useful answer sooner or later. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: That's nice. I wasn't talking about NT there. I was talking about DOS. I'm not running anything named DOS. Command line, popular before Windows but after CP/M...maybe you've heard of it? I used to run a few operating systems by that name. They're trying to help troubleshoot over the list. Why don't they just suggest that I move to another city, in case there's RF interference in my neighborhood. That's troubleshooting, too, but like swapping hardware, it's not very practical, and you don't start with the impractical methods if you have no idea what's wrong. Did you pass science class? This would show if it's reproducible as a bug. Nobody even knows what the messages mean. Without knowing that, what use is it to try to reproduce it on another machine? Slap it on the same damn hardware, *right down to the firmware* (remember you have modified firmware?). If it isn't running on two machines that are exactly the same, that shows an increased chance that that is indeed a bug in some driver, and you should contact the driver maintainer. What if the messages don't represent an error? It's troubleshooting by eliminating variables. It's rolling dice unless you first determine what the messages mean. Bzzt. Wrong. Not if the hardware is going bad or has a problem. There's no reason to believe that the hardware is going bad. See, in our magical and mystical world, we need to be able to reproduce the problem in order to help. How do you know it's a problem? You don't know what the messages mean. Otherwise we have to troubleshoot and speculate. All anyone has done thus far is guess. You know, the things you insist we don't need to do. On top of that, you never even commented on the possibility of someone being able to FIX your problem *IF IT IS* a FreeBSD software problem WITHOUT THE DAMN HARDWARE on which to test the fix. Sheeyit! How can I fix something on a configuration that I don't even have? By examining and modifying the code. Developers do it all the time. Wow, how long have you worked in the field as a troubleshooter? I spent a number of years in that capacity. So...unless everything is handled exactly as you wish it, unrealistic or not, by volunteers no less, it is a waste of your time. No, unless people follow a logical course of action to isolate the problem, if there is one, then they waste my time. And here I thought it was because it uses a PPC. My computer uses Intel hardware, but FreeBSD seems to have a problem with it. Your turn. Pull out that shit controller and set of drives, put in new drives and a new controller that's generic instead of modified, and see if FreeBSD works. Tell me what the messages mean, first. Then fix it. Or pay someone to. I don't have the time to examine the source. In the length of time you've spend insulting people on this list you could have swapped out the drives and controller and probably have things working already. Hmm. It did, it used an IR interface to do the transfer...hence the note *right in my question* about the IR interface. NT wouldn't allow the access to video that their program used to transfer data to the watch. How does an IR interface work with visible light? -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Apple IIe? you've never heard of it? I used to use one. I've never heard of the Friggin variant, though. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: If it doesn't say, the list is referring to the generic off-the-f'ing-shelf version. I _have_ the generic, off-the-shelf version of this PC. Very good. And if you take one of them whining about a problem, they point at the list and say, Tough Sh*t. No, they don't. They point out that they can't support your configuration. Sometimes they offer suggestions, anyway, sometimes they don't. They just aren't _obligated_ to provide any support. Yes, that's exactly what he's saying when properly twisted. Even without twisting, that seemed to be the clear meaning. If superior design consists solely of ignoring problems or ignoring glitches in hardware, then you have a real gem. No, I was referring to the additional modularity and stability made possible by the additional abstraction of a HAL. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Um...because it took an adapter that generically had worked, but after modifying it didn't? It was referenced by an OS that generically worked, but then did not after the modification of the adapter. Note that it has not been established that any particularity of the adapter firmware is at the root of this problem. The meaning and cause of the messages and behavior I'm seeing remain unknown. I have an old 68k mac laying here...think I can install AmigaDOS on it? I don't believe so, but it has been a long time. I and others on the list have suggested numerous times things like self-contained Live-CD's of Linux/FreeBSD, or USB-bootable versions, or talking to the actual developers instead of a USER MAILING LIST (Not DEVELOPER), or swapping the controller out and get matching drives to test against, or even paying someone to fix it with your hardware to test on, or just going back to windows so you can ignore the problem in the first place ... The one thing you have not done is explain the meaning of the messages I've seen. As far as this list is concerned, it's not gonna happen. I'm not optimistic, but one never knows. I've seen Linux report errors with drives that NT didn't. So? Aren't you the same person that said MS changed features specifically at your request, but you didn't remember what they were? Yes. If so, you never did answer me on how you could have forgotten what that feature was. It was quite some time ago. Much water has passed beneath the bridge. ...how long has it taken you to realize that HP/Compaq routinely do odd proprietary crap to their hardware? I've known it for years, but my evaluation of the pros and cons continues to evolve. you didn't know what the Apple IIe is? Yes, I did. You couldn't figure out why someone would suggest testing a problem on another bit of identical hardware to isolate if it was a hardware problem or a software problem? Someone might suggest that in order to seem knowledgeable, rather than admit that he has no clue as to the source of the problem. How long have you been a sysadmin? Overall I have a fair number of years of experience in that capacity. Currently I only administer my own systems. Get the multithousand dollar support contract with them, run exactly what they tell you to run, and you'll be happy with the support they would give. I don't think they'd approve of FreeBSD. how long have you been doing this, anyway? A couple of decades. I heard a similar type of argument from a five year old. Small children have a way of getting straight to the point that their elders might sometimes do well to emulate. I've had several machines where distro X wouldn't work but Distro Y did. But by your logic, this isn't possible, right? I haven't tried any other distributions. I don't know the source of the boot problem, so it's hard to say. You're right. You're getting much farther by insulting people and being obstinate when given suggestions. Apply that same logic consistently, and you'll see the source of my frustration. What a dichotomy to your insults of FreeBSD developers. Dichotomy? You mean, it could be buggy or have problems that are ignored, but it still works anyway and gets the MS stamp? Yes. But, how could this be? The certification tests are not exhaustive. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Bart Silverstrim writes: Your description of the problem. My description of the problem is very sparse, and even I did not reach those conclusions. It shouldn't be hammering the registry. It is. The system doesn't seem to care, doesn't report any problem. So why is it a problem? I only saw it because of another diagnostic program. So it obviously wasn't interfering with the functioning of the system. Maybe in some cases, hardware gives diagnostic codes or errors that the OS doesn't deem important enough to share. NT errs to the side of silence. Is that good or bad? Funny how this one had a bad bearing in it ... It couldn't have been that bad, if it ran for years. It was a bad bearing. Replacing the power supply made Mr. Weird Noise go away. Did the fan ever fail? They did! No, they did not. I still don't know what the messages mean. Just shut up. Everyone shut the hell up. Your post is nearly ten thousand characters long. Everyone else...S... Everyone else has already done that. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: That is how standards work, and when a piece of hardware goes beyond those standards either through design or mis-implementation, who is to blame? The hardware designer. But it has not been established that that is happening here. Perhaps the hardware is not adhering to a standard--or perhaps FreeBSD is not adhering to a standard. Since nobody knows what the messages mean, there's no way to say. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: This pretty much sums up your attitute. Most people on this list use the right tool for the right job, they are not interested in labeling a piece of code for 'adults' or for 'children'. The same is true for me. But there isn't anything I want or need to do right now that would not be done better by FreeBSD than by Linux. To paraphrase what some people have said in the past, Linux is an attempt by PC enthusiasts to make UNIX look like a PC, whereas the BSDs are an attempt by UNIX enthusiasts to make a PC look like UNIX. Most of what I'm interested in running right now is intended for a UNIX environment, so FreeBSD is a better tool for the job. The overwhelming concern of the Linux community seems to be to create something that walks and talks just like Windows, but isn't called Windows. I don't see any point in that, since real Windows does a better job if Windows is what one wants. I am sure IBM, SUN, and plently of other highly profitable companies would disagree with your assertion, but they are probably wrong too, hmmm? They are driven by profit motivations, not by a desire to use the right tool for the right job. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: then stop complaining to a list of 'kiddies', and use that. MS doesn't support FreeBSD. If you have never encountered the term FLOSS, you are not the open source user you claim to be, it is a common term. I've probably encountered it, I just didn't retain it. The IT world is full of acronyms. And what open source developer does anything but 'doing it at a loss'?. Very few, which is one reason why open source is not a serious competitor to proprietary software in many cases. Statistics will prove whatever you want it to prove, most people with intelligence look beyond the given conclusion, and make their own. If you don't look at statistics to draw your conclusions, what do you look at? Depends on what you want as a desktop - desktop != WIMP. Most people want a GUI on the desktop, and UNIX isn't designed for that. There are fundamental conflicts between the design requirements of a desktop and those of a server. One cannot do both well. Alternatively, many of the features of windows seem to match those of already available software. And so on, and so on. GUIs on the desktop predate the Mac and Windows interfaces by many years. So what defines a secure system, if not the fact it is less prone breakens? The NCSC criteria are a good start. Windows NT and its successors satisfy more of them than UNIX. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Anthony's drive issues.Re: ssh password delay
Martin McCann writes: So, you start by demanding your individual problem is resoloved by a list who has no responsibility to the upkeep of the software that has given you issue? I haven't demanded anything, I've simply asked. You have repeated this time and time again. No-one is argueing with you. I think it is safe to assume no-one knows excactly what the message is about. Then why is guessing about the rest an accept method of troubleshooting? Many people have tried to help by applying their high level of knowledge to the situation, which you have lambasted. If they had a high level of knowledge, they would know what the messages meant. There is reason to belive it. No, there is not. In order to have a reason to believe it, one would have to know what the messages meant, and nobody knows that. An outpouring of messages does not necessarily indicate a hardware malfunction. Consider if you will the impression you might give to a future employer who does a google search on your name. I have. -- Anthony ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
