Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Jerry freebsd.u...@seibercom.net wrote: As per the Mozilla site: Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in Java 6 Update 15 and above. FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update 21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why. That's one of the problems w.r.t. Java on FreeBSD: I had to install openjdk6, which provides at least this level in order to run all services that Freenet provides (Freenet runs in degraded mode with java/jdk16, because that version is too old and contains a big XML-related vulnerability). But java/openjdk6 works just fine with Freenet and almost any Java program I could throw at it. I don't know about Firefox 3.6 plugins though. % java -version openjdk version 1.6.0 OpenJDK Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0-b20) OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 17.0-b16, mixed mode) -cpghost. -- Cordula's Web. http://www.cordula.ws/ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:46 AM, bdsf...@att.net wrote: On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:46:35 -0400, Michel Talon ta...@lpthe.jussieu.fr wrote: Jerry said: Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in Java 6 Update 15 and above. OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin support) also work in this case. Yes, as I said in the second post to the thread. On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 8:37 PM, C. P. Ghost cpgh...@cordula.ws wrote: I don't know about Firefox 3.6 plugins though. It doesn't work, you need the icetea to generate the plugins. There is this: /usr/ports/java/icedtea6-stubs Looks promising anyways. There is also this work around. http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-java/2010-February/008535.html Java seems more pervasive than ever in the web enviro at least for sys admin type stuff. Today I used it to access a Proxmox install, a Lantronics spider kvm over IP, and my girlfriend's child had a homework assignment on a java web app that was broken due to a recent update to her XP's java runtime. You can say all you want Java is dead, dying, and/or irrelevant. I wish you were right, unfortunately that's not the world many of us live in. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 9/14/2010 4:21 PM, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: Jules == Jules Gilbertjules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java Jules sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle. Jules (It's called Open Source.) And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts. Given Oracle's apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't *matter* that Java is open source. We'll have to wait until Oracle v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's *patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in Oracle's bed. Google sort of shot themselves in the foot since it's like java enough that everyone not a lawyer can call it java, except it needs recompiled, and that Google ignored the patent grant by Sun since they made it a subset. There's also the issue that Google's not paying licensing fees to say it's Java capable. Google was intentionally weaseling out of a potential problem. Sun being bought got Google in trouble. Sun's patent grant could have protected Google, but Google refused it. As to the original post, Java, a portable write once run anywhere language, doesn't work on FreeBSD, a standard type operating system that mainly runs on standard hardware, when used with Xorg, a widely used standard, as a plug in for Firefox, a major and presumably the dominant *nix web browser. Maybe the question should go to Oracle about why it doesn't work. A java applet probably works on your Symbian smart phone running on ARM. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 01:52:57 -0500 Joshua Isom jri...@gmail.com articulated: As to the original post, Java, a portable write once run anywhere language, doesn't work on FreeBSD, a standard type operating system that mainly runs on standard hardware, when used with Xorg, a widely used standard, as a plug in for Firefox, a major and presumably the dominant *nix web browser. Maybe the question should go to Oracle about why it doesn't work. A java applet probably works on your Symbian smart phone running on ARM. Java is offered in many different versions that work on a multitude of operating systems. To expect or require, and I have no idea how you would enforce the requirement bit, Oracle or any other software vendor for that matter to design software that is fully functional on all operating systems is simply unrealistic and most likely unobtainable. There are numerous examples of software that work only on a limited number of *.nix flavors. To be made operational on other operating systems usually requires reworking the code and in many cases disabling many of the software's features. Even then there is no guarantee that it will work correctly, if at all. It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers. I have not been able to ascertain exactly why Java cannot be made functional on a modern FreeBSD system. Other than receiving some useless suggestion about donating money to the Java foundation, or whatever it is called, nobody has responded with an answer. The bottom line is that Java appears to be functioning on other flavors of *.nix, but not FreeBSD. It would seem pretty obvious where the problem lies. -- Jerry ✌ freebsd.u...@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ What if God’s a woman? Not only am I going to hell, I’ll never know why. Adam Ferrara ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jerry said: It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers. I would be happy to have a precise information on what is not working. On my machine, FreeBSD-8.1 x86, Java works. niobe% java -version java version 1.6.0_03-p4 Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00) Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00, mixed mode) As you can see, it is a recent java, and i have compiled it myself. If i remember well, the prebuilt diablo-jdk was not working. I have boostraped my compilation by using a prebuilt openjdk installed with pkg_add -r. Of course i modified the Makefile to be able to use it. The openjdk package did not include a mozilla plugin, but the above compilation produces a plugin. Now the real problem: firefox36 doesn't see the plugin, and even worse doesn't produce any message about the plugin when starting up. However i am able to use the plugin under seamonkey, so it is clearly a firefox problem, and not a Java problem or a FreeBSD problem. Strangely enough, Konqueror, which doesn't use the plugin, but a direct invocation of java, doesn't work either. Execution of an applet begins, something appears but the applet execution never appears on screen. This is the first time i see Java not working on Konqueror. Last point: some people say in this thread that nobody uses Java any more on the browser, hence it is of no importance that one cannot have a java enabled firefox. I have an example to the contrary, here in France you can submit your tax declaration online, and the application allowing to do that is a java applet running under the browser. Similarly i am using a printing service for my photographs which allows to download them and manage the order via a java applet. Hence, at least in my case i see immediately several important applications using a Java enabled browser. -- Michel TALON ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wednesday 15 September 2010 13:02:41 Jerry wrote: It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers. I have not been able to ascertain exactly why Java cannot be made functional on a modern FreeBSD system. Other than receiving some useless suggestion about donating money to the Java foundation, or whatever it is called, nobody has responded with an answer. The bottom line is that Java appears to be functioning on other flavors of *.nix, but not FreeBSD. It would seem pretty obvious where the problem lies. Yes. It lies with Sun and Oracle, and the licensing terms that prevent the FreeBSD project from distributing modified Java packages. More generally, the problem lies with companies who won't support FreeBSD but also prevent the project from supporting their product itself. There are strong commercial interests in Linux - IBM, Red Hat, Oracle, to name three - which makes it worth spending some money supporting a product on Linux. (That goes for other products too: nvidia graphics card drivers, flash, wireless networking device drivers...) Even so there are products that have patchy support in Linux too. FreeBSD isn't as attractive a commercial target, since it has no financially powerful backers (that I'm aware of), a small market share, and not much public awareness. Some companies are prepared to sink resources into supporting it anyway, and others are prepared to release the information needed for the FreeBSD project to support their products for them. There are other companies, as I said, that won't do either. I don't think it's fair to blame the FreeBSD developers for that; nor indeed to expect the FreeBSD developers to be responsible for making Sun/Oracle's Java and the Mozilla Foundation's Firefox work. Jonathan ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jonathan McKeown wrote: Yes. It lies with Sun and Oracle, and the licensing terms that prevent the FreeBSD project from distributing modified Java packages. More generally, the problem lies with companies who won't support FreeBSD but also prevent the project from supporting their product itself. I've been wanting to ignore this thread because I know the amount of work involved, but #1 Why doesn't someone sign-up and get the OpenJDK validation suite? #2 Why doesn't someone pull Icedtea6, build it and then run the OpenJDK validation suite? I don't know if waiting for others is going to get the desired results in this case.. After the project is rolling I'm happy to help make suggestions or give a hand with how to make Hotspot and the whole JDK a little better performance. Thanks ./C ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 15:17:32 + Michel Talon ta...@lpthe.jussieu.fr articulated: Jerry said: It took years, literally, before FreeBSD matured enough to get 64-bit drivers for nVidia working correctly on its platform. The failure to get the latest version(s) of Java working correctly on FreeBSD and thereby, at least in my case, make the latest version of Firefox fully usable, rests with the FreeBSD developers. I would be happy to have a precise information on what is not working. On my machine, FreeBSD-8.1 x86, Java works. niobe% java -version java version 1.6.0_03-p4 Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00) Java HotSpot(TM) Client VM (build 1.6.0_03-p4-michel_30_jul_2010_15_01-b00, mixed mode) On my system, using the latest build available in the ports system: $ java -version java version 1.6.0_07 Diablo Java(TM) SE Runtime Environment (build 1.6.0_07-b02) Diablo Java HotSpot(TM) 64-Bit Server VM (build 10.0-b23, mixed mode) As you can see, it is a recent java, and i have compiled it myself. If i remember well, the prebuilt diablo-jdk was not working. I have boostraped my compilation by using a prebuilt openjdk installed with pkg_add -r. Of course i modified the Makefile to be able to use it. The openjdk package did not include a mozilla plugin, but the above compilation produces a plugin. Now the real problem: firefox36 doesn't see the plugin, and even worse doesn't produce any message about the plugin when starting up. However i am able to use the plugin under seamonkey, so it is clearly a firefox problem, and not a Java problem or a FreeBSD problem. Strangely enough, Konqueror, which doesn't use the plugin, but a direct invocation of java, doesn't work either. Execution of an applet begins, something appears but the applet execution never appears on screen. This is the first time i see Java not working on Konqueror. I am using Firefox: $ firefox3 --version Mozilla Firefox 3.6.9, Copyright (c) 1998 - 2010 mozilla.org If I wanted to use a different browser, I would. Hell, I could just use Windows and not worry about Java incompatibilities entirely. As per the Mozilla site: Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in Java 6 Update 15 and above. FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update 21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why. Last point: some people say in this thread that nobody uses Java any more on the browser, hence it is of no importance that one cannot have a java enabled firefox. I have an example to the contrary, here in France you can submit your tax declaration online, and the application allowing to do that is a java applet running under the browser. Similarly i am using a printing service for my photographs which allows to download them and manage the order via a java applet. Hence, at least in my case i see immediately several important applications using a Java enabled browser. People bitch about not needing or requiring Java based virtually solely on the lack of support the FreeBSD community (developers) have afforded it. If, Java worked as well on FreeBSD as it does on Windows and many other operating systems, their scorn would turn to praise. It is just the nature of the beast. -- Jerry ✌ freebsd.u...@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jerry said: Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in Java 6 Update 15 and above. OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin support) also work in this case. FreeBSD does not supply, nor support as far as I can decipher, that version or any of the newer versions, the latest being version 6, update 21. Nor, as I stated previously, has anyone stated definitively why. It takes a long time for FreeBSD to support a new version of the jdk, because this is an extremely voluminous and complicated software, and the number of developers working on Java support is very small. -- Michel TALON ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 12:46:35 -0400, Michel Talon ta...@lpthe.jussieu.fr wrote: Jerry said: Starting in Firefox 3.6, you also need the new Java plugin included in Java 6 Update 15 and above. OK, this explains why my plugin doesn't work. So the only solution is to use the port firefox35 hoping that other components (flash plugin support) also work in this case. This, by the way, is probably the correct and only answer the OP was looking for. I had Java working just fine in a previous install, but hadn't bothered with it lately so I didn't want to answer the OP and possibly misinform. The OP didn't mean to troll (thus the non-descriptive yet truthful subject line), but we got treated to a big pointless discussion of whether or not Java is useful/evil anyway, with the added joy for some of us of receiving many copies of the responses thanks to the cross-posting. Sometimes people just want the _technical_ answer, not the _political_ one, regardless of the strength of your convictions. Brian ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
I'm the guy who started this thread. First, I'm not unhappy with any of you. Each of you, every single person who has, at any time, been a member of the team working on *any* FBSD sub-system, has contributed more than me. I don't criticize you, I salute you, thank you. And stop throwing bricks at each other, we, the users, continue to need your skills and your contributions. Now, I wrote my note for a reason -- which no one seems to have touched on (maybe I missed it, that's certainly possible.) A typical FBSD user wants to be able to do a ports-based install, or perhaps a pkg_add and, presto, out of the box, have a browser. And, here it comes... Wait for it. Without too much trouble, have a running Java, connect to that browser and working. And it doesn't matter if some of us like or don't like Java. It's here and it's staying here. In ten years, and probably in twenty years, it will still be an important part of a typical OS environment. I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be shipped. Okay. Now, (here I am not asking for a public response, nor am I suggesting that anyone email me privately about this,) does anyone have an in with Oracle management? Because we need Oracle to reverse their decision in this matter (remember, they inherited Java from Sun, but their management team is slowly buying in to the decisions that Sun made. We want to give the Oracle people good reasons to change their thinking in regards to Java. It may be theoretically possible for a current user to build, say, a Firefox browser with a working Java, but this happens at a time when that new machine is just coming up. One mistake sometimes makes the builder unsure what he needs to change in his environment to try again (boy, is that me!) So, assuming we can't get real change from Oracle, can we at least provide much better install instructions for naive users. Please. (And I am hoping that my notes generate both short-term fixes as well as more permanent policy changes on the part of Oracle.) Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle. (It's called Open Source.) It would help me if the FreeBSD website provided somewhat better descriptions of the programs offered. Those descriptions are perfect -- if you already know what you're doing. But in this area I am a naive user. For example: Do JDK's (java development kit's,) provide anything for an end-user? Or are they only useful for people building applications? Also: To run Java with a browser, do I need anything more than a client run-time environment? If so, what? Oh, one more thing... I don't do compiler stuff anymore, I did once. And to those of you who want to toss Java, you've got a lot of work to do, not only in terms of overcoming the number of applications but also the design, the people who've worked on it did great work. It's not going away. What will happen is what's already happening, stuff like IceTea is being built. But scrapping Java?, not for at least 25 years, more probably. On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:02 PM, Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com wrote: About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS? Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
(Trimming the CC list a bit.) On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:11 AM, Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com wrote: I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be shipped. Okay. Now, (here I am not asking for a public response, nor am I suggesting that anyone email me privately about this,) does anyone have an in with Oracle management? If you're holding your breath waiting for Oracle to answer questions, about all you're going to do is turn blue. They have a policy of not communicating about the status of their products. Anyone with an in with management would probably be forbidden to talk about it. Take a look at how long they jerked the OpenSolaris folks around before dumping them and ask yourself if you want to volunteer for that kind of treatment. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010 12:11:10 -0400 Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com wrote: A typical FBSD user wants to be able to do a ports-based install, or perhaps a pkg_add and, presto, out of the box, have a browser. And, here it comes... Wait for it. Without too much trouble, have a running Java, connect to that browser and working. And it doesn't matter if some of us like or don't like Java. It's here and it's staying here. In ten years, and probably in twenty years, it will still be an important part of a typical OS environment. I understand that Sun declined to allow pre-built configurations to be shipped. Okay. Personally, I haven't used java for a long time (or even noticed its absence - unlike flash), so I 'm a bit behind the times. What's the is the problem? If they are stopping pre-built packages then that presumably just means the end of the diablo ports. Before those port existed I don't recall the plug-in situation as being any worse than slightly irritating. Is there more to it than that? ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java Jules sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle. Jules (It's called Open Source.) And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts. Given Oracle's apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't *matter* that Java is open source. We'll have to wait until Oracle v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's *patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in Oracle's bed. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Tuesday, 14 September 2010: Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Now, if Oracle won't adjust their thinking, I intend to look at Java Jules sub-systems that are supplied and built by other people than Oracle. Jules (It's called Open Source.) And that's what I tried to say in my last few posts. Given Oracle's apparent stance to own Java not by copyright but by patent, it doesn't *matter* that Java is open source. We'll have to wait until Oracle v. Google is decided, but unless Google can invalidate Oracle's *patents* on Java, Java is effectively dead, unless you want to sleep in Oracle's bed. ... and Oracle makes for a large bedfellow, with a reputation for a painful embrace. -- Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com pgp7BWh3Gq9yy.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 09/10/10 15:16, Chip Camden wrote: Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the only good solution? Take a look at some online games. For example Runescape (www.runescape.com) Taken from Wikipedia /*RuneScape*/ is a fantasy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fantasy massively multiplayer online role-playing game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_role-playing_game (MMORPG) released in January 2001 by Andrew http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Gower and Paul Gower,^[2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape#cite_note-ProquestGower-1 and developed by Jagex Ltd. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagex It is a graphical http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphical_game browser game http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Browser_game implemented on the client-side http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Client_%28computing%29 in Java http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_%28programming_language%29, and incorporates 3D rendering http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3D_rendering. The game has approximately 10 million active accounts, over 130 million registered accounts,^[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape#cite_note-TechRadar-2 and is recognised by the Guinness World Records http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinness_World_Records as the world's most popular free MMORPG.^[4] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RuneScape#cite_note-Guinness_Records-3 Using Java, Jagex have made Runescape available to most computer users, not just Windows users A lot of IP-KVMs also use client side Java apps. Paul ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Preface: Sorry for messing up the quotes and all, this message got a bit untidy so that even *I* am unsure who I am currently replying to. :-) On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 15:24:31 +, four.harris...@googlemail.com wrote: On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. Sadly not. While HTML5 standardizes the embedding of video content, there still seems to be a problem with codec to use. All this idiotic crap of patenting, licensing, and all the fee-loaded lawyer-stuff that has NO need to exist in a technical discussion brought Flash where it is today: Flash is abused as a replacement of HTML, mostly by professional program managers and script kiddies. HTML5 browsers would need to be able to play video content out of the box, WITHOUT the need for installing additional codecs that are illegal to use in my country - you know what I mean. It's like requiring a plugin at OS kernel level to display text in bold face, or showing a PNG image in a web page! I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still NEED Java support in their browsers - and not of their own choice. I think the initial suggestion to move on was directed exactly at the reasons you mentioned in the next sentence: Banks, insurances, digital signature services etc. Still frequently use Java as carrier for their services. Often this cannot be changed easily as such organizations have long turn-around times and make investments in the long term. Good software can always be changed easily. :-) Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run signed code it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just one of the reasons/scenarios. It's also very famous in education. For example, basic programming courses (not BASIC programming courses!) often use Java to teach the basics of programming. This produces bad programmers. :-) I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons. I'm using FreeBSD *exclusively* on the desktop since version 4.0. I never had issues with Java - it always worked. I admit that it wasn't very easy in the first years due to Sun's licensing politics (again, politics are the enemy of every educated technical consi- deration), but it worked. Both in Opera (my main browser) and Firefox, among many testing bed browsers I had to use in the past. Since Flash works on FreeBSD, I also tried this out. After one week, I removed it. Reason: No need for it. You are right that Java is still needed in some places on the web, but it's far more easy to deal with Java problems than with Flash problems, I think. So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop can as well be ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for servers, where it already excels. First of all, please see the big difference between what people need and what people want, and who those people are. I'm sure I don't have to elaborate on this. :-) Second, FreeBSD is an excellent MULTI-purpose operating system that can be used on terminals, workstations, servers, and on all kinds of mixed forms. I would be sad to lose only one of those functionalities. For a more desktop-centric FreeBSD that has all the stuff what people need, refer to PC-BSD. Some sites make accessing them difficult without Flash, but I consider that their problem and move on. Yes, same here. FreeBSD isn't just good for servers. As I said. -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Fri, 10 Sep 2010 17:49:56 -0600, Chad Perrin per...@apotheon.com wrote: These days, it seems like the only places people *really* think they still need Java are smartphones and enterprise systems running on overpriced servers -- neither of which makes a difference for Firefox on the desktop. Let me add another field: There are applicances like all-in-one DSL modem telephone splitter router DHCP server NAT firewall boxes that are very common in german households. Those usually use Java to present their control elements to the user; Applet loading is often seen when connected to that box in order to change some setting. I think the initial developers found it better to put a Java applet in there than some PHP generated HTML served by a little web server... they could have used an efficient and professional programming language, too, but that's something you won't find in home consumer crap devices. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 9/11/2010 1:10 AM, Polytropon wrote: Let me add another field: There are applicances like all-in-one DSL modem telephone splitter router DHCP server NAT firewall boxes that are very common in german households. Those usually use Java to present their control elements to the user; Applet loading is often seen when connected to that box in order to change some setting. I think the initial developers found it better to put a Java applet in there than some PHP generated HTML served by a little web server... they could have used an efficient and professional programming language, too, but that's something you won't find in home consumer crap devices.:-) So to configure your router, you need a java enabled browser, and odds are you get the jar file from the router, so it has an http server, and probably another server just to process configuration requests? Now your router has two servers running, one to get the jar, one to deal with config, instead of one http server with one cgi script. Java has/had its uses, but I don't recall the last time I ran something using java. At the moment when it comes to the browser, flash is more important and that's only for all the websites that want to stream instead of give you a file like they used to. I remember years and years ago starting to learn java. I got really frustrated by spending a few hours going through documentation to find the proper way to read a text file. Writing the gui seemed easy, the rest wasn't. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Sat, 11 Sep 2010 03:17:49 -0500, Joshua Isom jri...@gmail.com wrote: So to configure your router, you need a java enabled browser, and odds are you get the jar file from the router, so it has an http server, and probably another server just to process configuration requests? Now your router has two servers running, one to get the jar, one to deal with config, instead of one http server with one cgi script. Yes, such complicated devices exist. Accessing it with Java switched off, you can't do anything. Very overcomplicated, and slow. Java has/had its uses, but I don't recall the last time I ran something using java. As it has been mentioned, Java is often required in online banking, but as far as I've noticed, it's also less and less important in those fields. I'm not using online banking myself so my opinion is very little substanciated. At the moment when it comes to the browser, flash is more important and that's only for all the websites that want to stream instead of give you a file like they used to. Not only that. Whole suites of development tools are arranged around Flash in order to replace dealing with HTML at all. Navigational elements, as well as non-AV content is enclosed in Flash to limit accessibility (which of course makes the web less barrier-free, but who cares except cripples - they don't count, majority wins). Also content protection is a field where Flash is heavily used, like No, you can't select this text and copy it somewhere else! What animated GIFs were in the past, that's Flash today, but much more ressource-intensive, proprietary, dangerous, and annoying. I remember years and years ago starting to learn java. It was hard for me to learn Java at university when I had already years of C experience. :-) I got really frustrated by spending a few hours going through documentation to find the proper way to read a text file. I didn't know there was one. :-) Writing the gui seemed easy, the rest wasn't. That's the basic idea: Make it look good on the outside, so it appeals to users using the first sight effect. Don't care for the internals, nobody can see them anyway. :-) -- Polytropon Magdeburg, Germany Happy FreeBSD user since 4.0 Andra moi ennepe, Mousa, ... ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 10 Sep 2010 at 18:20, Jason C. Wells wrote: Subject:Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask... On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Java is not just for browsers. Regards, Jason C. Wells I can't help wondering if half of you are talking about the JavaScripting language that runs in a browser, while the rest are talking about the Java Run Time Engine that some (cross platform) standalone app's (and some browser apps) use. All I know is they are very different beasts. dit dit. Dave B. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 10 Sep 2010 at 18:20, Jason C. Wells wrote: Subject:Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask... On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Java is not just for browsers. Regards, Jason C. Wells I can't help wondering if half of you are talking about the JavaScripting language that runs in a browser, while the rest are talking about the Java Run Time Engine that some (cross platform) standalone app's (and some browser apps) use. All I know is they are very different beasts. dit dit. Dave B. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 09/09/2010 22:02, Jules Gilbert wrote: About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Looks like you might be in luck the thread here http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-gecko/2010-September/001099.html shows that there are 2 ports of icedtea including a plugin for firefox 3.6 in progress. It looks like the one at http://lists.freebsd.org/pipermail/freebsd-java/2010-September/008806.html is in a better state at the moment. Vince Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS? Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Look, I'm just a user. I'm not a Java developer, not a language developer, not a run-time specialist. But folks, we got problems! I say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a browser. I didn't even know that Google and Oracle weren't getting along, I really am out of date. (All I do is code.) But here's the thing: almost no one can make a java enabled browser, and lot's of us need exactly that, java running on our browsers. So obviously this means that something is seriously wrong -- and worse, when I asked how, no one came back and said Oh, you obviously didn't install such-and-such a patch, do that and everything will work. No, and worse, the responses are all about possible solutions in the distant not-known-when-and-only-maybe future. I do think we should all get behind this Beat fellow, he's b...@freebsd.org, his work seems closest to bringing up a java-enabled browser, with zero or at least few problems. --jg On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Randal L. Schwartz mer...@stonehenge.com wrote: Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look Jules around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something Jules that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. You mean something that looks like Java but isn't Java? That's precisely what the Oracle v. Google suit is about. Dangerous road to go down at this point. Or do you mean something that isn't even Java, but has a lot of Java-like features? I think you're describing everything else already available in production. Plenty of choices. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion -- Fellow Christians!, Read Galatians, chapter three, verse 14. Here Paul documents that Christians have been made part of God's original promise to Abraham, and that, because of Jesus, we are tied to these same promises. But don't for a moment imagine that God is done with the Jews!, no, God is even today working to fulfill every promise he made, even to save every person in Israel -- which God declares will be the case, for he say's that all Israel will be saved. About this business with Iran... Don't fret. Jeremiah, who probably wrote the most about modern day Iran, advises us, beginning in chapter 34, verse 49, that Iran is going to lose big. Yes, one day both Egypt and Iran, in fact all of south-Asia be a community of Christian nations. (Both Isaiah and Zechariah make similar statements.) In fact Zechariah say's that Gazan's will one day be elected, freely elected by Jews, to high offices in Israel. Imagine that! But as my wife just told me! when I tried this on her, people aren't saved (or even helped,) by knowledge of prophecy, no, real assistance from the God of the Bible comes only one way; By tying oneself to Jesus, by asking to partner with him. He is the basis of help, of love, and change that brings with it God's love and assistance. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Thu, 9 Sep 2010 16:43:36 -0500 Adam Vande More amvandem...@gmail.com articulated: On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.comwrote: About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Works fine for me as long as you stick with firefox35 Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. I believe the FreeBSD Foundation is still accepting donations. Excepting donations != producing results. I will be happy to donate $100 US dollars to their fund once they distribute a fully up-to-date version of JAVA, not some reworked, deprecated version, that is fully compatible with Firefox on FreeBSD. I believe the current version of Java is Version 6 Update 21. It simply goes counter to my basic business model to contribute any monetary assistance to any open ended project. -- Jerry ✌ freebsd.u...@seibercom.net Disclaimer: off-list followups get on-list replies or get ignored. Please do not ignore the Reply-To header. __ ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Look, I'm just a user. I'm not a Java developer, not a language Jules developer, not a run-time specialist. But folks, we got problems! I Jules say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a Jules browser. And that's why I challenged you as to why. We needed Java to run in the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets. But with HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, why Java? Java had its day. Time to move on. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 9/10/10 7:46 AM, Randal L. Schwartz mer...@stonehenge.com wrote: Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Look, I'm just a user. I'm not a Java developer, not a language Jules developer, not a run-time specialist. But folks, we got problems! I Jules say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a Jules browser. And that's why I challenged you as to why. We needed Java to run in the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets. But with HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, why Java? Java had its day. Time to move on. That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. ~Mark ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Mark == Mark Sommer msom...@somware.com writes: Mark That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. Mark I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across Mark browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Mark Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe. (Flash too.) There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead. Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. We needed Java before we had good JavaScript. Now we have good JavaScript. I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Friday, 10 September 2010: Mark == Mark Sommer msom...@somware.com writes: Mark That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. Mark I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across Mark browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Mark Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe. (Flash too.) There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead. Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. We needed Java before we had good JavaScript. Now we have good JavaScript. I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the only good solution? I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is evident. I have yet to miss Java in any way. What problems would it solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach? -- Sterling (Chip) Camden| sterl...@camdensoftware.com | 2048D/3A978E4F http://camdensoftware.com | http://chipstips.com| http://chipsquips.com pgpLCAfdiSQYm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: Mark == Mark Sommer msom...@somware.com writes: Mark That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. Mark I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across Mark browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Mark Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe. (Flash too.) There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead. Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. We needed Java before we had good JavaScript. Now we have good JavaScript. I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still NEED Java support in their browsers - and not of their own choice. Banks, insurances, digital signature services etc. Still frequently use Java as carrier for their services. Often this cannot be changed easily as such organizations have long turn-around times and make investments in the long term. Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run signed code it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just one of the reasons/scenarios. I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons. I'm sure it would be a great choice in an ideal world but we are unfortunately living in a real one. So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop can as well be ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for servers, where it already excels. /Eirik -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-j...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-java To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-java-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 5:48 AM, Jerry freebsd.u...@seibercom.net wrote: Excepting donations != producing results. I will be happy to donate $100 US dollars to their fund once they distribute a fully up-to-date version of JAVA, not some reworked, deprecated version, that is fully compatible with Firefox on FreeBSD. I believe the current version of Java is Version 6 Update 21. It simply goes counter to my basic business model to contribute any monetary assistance to any open ended project. Did you contribute back when it was up to date? Or do you contribute now based on all the other features you find useful in FreeBSD? So you won't write code, you won't donate money, but constantly complain about it. I guess I fail to see the logic in your basic business model. I've donated fairly regularly, and things I've requested like HA and XEN support are at least partially here now. If you're in the US your donations are tax deductible, at least monetary donations are, so there is even less argument against donations. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Fri, 2010-09-10 at 08:16 -0700, Chip Camden wrote: Quoth Randal L. Schwartz on Friday, 10 September 2010: Mark == Mark Sommer msom...@somware.com writes: Mark That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. Mark I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across Mark browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Mark Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe. (Flash too.) There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead. Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. We needed Java before we had good JavaScript. Now we have good JavaScript. I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the only good solution? I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is evident. I have yet to miss Java in any way. What problems would it solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach? One that springs to mind for me is alom/ilo/drac console redirection... It requires java unfortunately. I suspect there are a lot of legacy applications that use javaws... It will take time for them to catch up once html5 is proper mainstream if at all. Cheers Craig B ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
- From: Eirik Øverby ltn...@anduin.net Subject:Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask... Date: 10th September 2010 16:20 On 10. sep. 2010, at 16:29, mer...@stonehenge.com (Randal L. Schwartz) wrote: Mark == Mark Sommer msom...@somware.com writes: Mark That's a pretty idealistic view of the upcoming release of HTML5. Mark I have yet to see a release of HTML that is compatible across Mark browsers, i.e. adapted universally by all browsers uniformly. Mark Java is still a very viable platform, even on the browser. Whenever I see Java firing up on my browser, I cringe. (Flash too.) There are darn few things either of these do that a good modern cross-platform library, like jQueryUI, can't do instead. Except for video playback, which HTML5 fixes as well. And yes, until then, we're stuck with Flash. We needed Java before we had good JavaScript. Now we have good JavaScript. I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. You are forgetting - or conveniently ignoring - that many still NEED Java support in their browsers - and not of their own choice. Banks, insurances, digital signature services etc. Still frequently use Java as carrier for their services. Often this cannot be changed easily as such organizations have long turn-around times and make investments in the long term. Java is still very much alive, and until html5 can validate and run signed code it'll stay that way even on the client. And that is just one of the reasons/scenarios. I'm not using FreeBSD on the desktop for just this kind o reasons. I'm sure it would be a great choice in an ideal world but we are unfortunately living in a real one. So either one takes the time to implement what people _need_ in addition to what you would prefer them to need, or the desktop can as well be ditched and focus moved to improving FreeBSD for servers, where it already excels. /Eirik I've been running FreeBSD as my sole desktop since 5.2.1. I bank and shop online. I do not have either Java or Flash installed. I have yet to find any functionality missing because of the lack of Java. Some sites make accessing them difficult without Flash, but I consider that their problem and move on. FreeBSD isn't just good for servers. Peter Harrison www.4harrisons.blogspot.com -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-j...@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-java To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-java-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 06:46, Randal L. Schwartz mer...@stonehenge.com wrote: Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Look, I'm just a user. I'm not a Java developer, not a language Jules developer, not a run-time specialist. But folks, we got problems! I Jules say this because it's becoming really hard to make Java run on a Jules browser. And that's why I challenged you as to why. We needed Java to run in the browser back before we had cross-platform DHTML widgets. But with HTML5 around the corner, I've got to again ask, why Java? Java had its day. Time to move on. Why Java? I've worked with several SSL VPNs (SonicWall, Juniper, Aventail) for $WORK, and they all require a java-enabled browser - so unless you're suggesting that DHTML and HTML5 can replace that, I need a java-enabled browser. Aside from that, there are some really nice apps written in Java - including Data Crow, which is a pretty decent cataloging utility for my books and movies and such, and I haven't seen anything nearly as good as that written in a cross-platform language, so that I can move it between my FreeBSD machine and my family's Windows machines. Kurt ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 08:16:51AM -0700, Chip Camden wrote: Perhaps someone could provide specific use cases for which Java is the only good solution? I guess the only answer to that is running applications someone wrote in Java -- but I know that's *not* what you meant. I don't have Flash installed on my browser, and what I lack from that is evident. I have yet to miss Java in any way. What problems would it solve for people that can't be solved using a different approach? I have intentionally avoided installing Java for a long time. This has caused some issues with getting OpenOffice.org running, but the single use I've had for it in the last year (give or take) dried up a couple months or so ago, so that reason to care went away. I sure as heck have never actually *needed* Java in my browser, for any reason. Who still uses Java in the browser without some alternative for those who don't have it, these days? These days, it seems like the only places people *really* think they still need Java are smartphones and enterprise systems running on overpriced servers -- neither of which makes a difference for Firefox on the desktop. -- Chad Perrin [ original content licensed OWL: http://owl.apotheon.org ] pgptlaEGLrQCm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Java is not just for browsers. Regards, Jason C. Wells ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jason == Jason C Wells j...@speakeasy.net writes: Jason On 09/10/10 07:29, Randal L. Schwartz wrote: I repeat... Java had its day. Time to move on. Jason Java is not just for browsers. Indeed. And I still stand by my statement. Java makes everyone equally incompetent, which is why managers like it. It helps the beginner, hurts the advanced. Managers can swap programmers in and out strictly on head count, not on experience. Friends don't let friends make greenstarts with Java. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
this is probably a little touchy to ask...
About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS? Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On Thu, Sep 9, 2010 at 4:02 PM, Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.comwrote: About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Works fine for me as long as you stick with firefox35 Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. I believe the FreeBSD Foundation is still accepting donations. -- Adam Vande More ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
Jules == Jules Gilbert jules.sto...@gmail.com writes: Jules Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look Jules around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something Jules that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. You mean something that looks like Java but isn't Java? That's precisely what the Oracle v. Google suit is about. Dangerous road to go down at this point. Or do you mean something that isn't even Java, but has a lot of Java-like features? I think you're describing everything else already available in production. Plenty of choices. -- Randal L. Schwartz - Stonehenge Consulting Services, Inc. - +1 503 777 0095 mer...@stonehenge.com URL:http://www.stonehenge.com/merlyn/ Smalltalk/Perl/Unix consulting, Technical writing, Comedy, etc. etc. See http://methodsandmessages.vox.com/ for Smalltalk and Seaside discussion ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
Re: this is probably a little touchy to ask...
On 09/09/10 14:02, Jules Gilbert wrote: About Java. Using java with freebsd/mozilla or another browser. Some questions: Is GNU java sufficient? I need to be able to run a browser with Java. No alternative -- and no I don't want to run windoz. I'm trying to do an 8.1 install. Does this problem exist with Sun's x86 OS? Does anyone have a website or even a set of notes as to the right way to do this. cd /usr/ports/java/jdk make make install Now an opinion. If Oracle isn't going to help us, we should look around for an alternative, even inventing something else, something that isn't Sun/Oracle/Java. Because this problem has been getting progressively worse for the past three or four years or so (longer?,) and, look around, it's hurting the FreeBSD community. Help you with what? Their silly little distribution policy is annoying. It doesn't prevent you from running java. Regards, Jason ___ freebsd-questions@freebsd.org mailing list http://lists.freebsd.org/mailman/listinfo/freebsd-questions To unsubscribe, send any mail to freebsd-questions-unsubscr...@freebsd.org
