Re: [Freedos-user] Networking FreeDOS 1.3 on QEMU

[Darrin M. Gorski]

I've found that the ADM PCNet adaptor in QEMU (-device pcnet) with the
matching DOS drivers work well under FreeDOS.  I wasn't able to get any of
the other QEMU emulated ethernet devices to work properly under DOS.

I spent a lot of time fighting with the Intel adaptors - it seems the QEMU
emulated Intel adaptors are pretty new, and the Intel DOS drivers are
pretty old.  I finally gave up and went back to AMD PCNet.

I was able to use NDIS2 drivers with MSNET (using TCP/IP bindings and
talking to a Samba server) as well as packet drivers with the DOS based TCP
stacks.  Also works well with etherdfs.

Hopefully that saves you some time (I spent a lot of time troubleshooting
these adaptors on the DOS side.)

- Darrin

On Tue, Sep 6, 2022 at 3:41 PM Jerome Shidel  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > On Sep 6, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Phil Reynolds <
> phil-free...@tinsleyviaduct.com> wrote:
> >
> > I had FreeDOS 1.2 working quite nicely, networking included, on qemu,
> > but I am lost as to (a) how I originally achieved it (b) how I might do
> > likewise with 1.3 - is there any specific documentation I can follow?
>
> By default during the boot process, FDAUTO runs "FDNET.BAT start”
>
> The “start” option tells FDNET to only run on known compatible virtual
> machines (ie. VirtualBox and VMware).
>
> You will need to configure QEMU with an appropriate network card. I don’t
> use QEMU much to run DOS. Can’t help you there.
>
> Then if it is one of the Network cards supported by FDNET, you can just
> remove the “start” option.
>
> Otherwise, you could create a custom batch called FDNETPD.BAT that knows
> how to configure your packet driver. You would then place both your custom
> FDNETPD.BAT and Packet Driver in the FDNET directory. Then running FDNET
> should bring up your networking. This prevents the need for customizing the
> FDCONFIG and/or FDAUTO every time you reinstall, upgrade the OS or update
> packages.
>
> Hope that helps at least a little.
>
> :-)
>
> Jerome
>
> >
> > --
> > Phil Reynolds
> > mail: phil-free...@tinsleyviaduct.com
> > Web: http://phil.tinsleyviaduct.com/
> >
> >
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>
>
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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking FreeDOS 1.3 on QEMU

[Jerome Shidel]

Hi, 

> On Sep 6, 2022, at 11:43 AM, Phil Reynolds  
> wrote:
> 
> I had FreeDOS 1.2 working quite nicely, networking included, on qemu,
> but I am lost as to (a) how I originally achieved it (b) how I might do
> likewise with 1.3 - is there any specific documentation I can follow?

By default during the boot process, FDAUTO runs "FDNET.BAT start” 

The “start” option tells FDNET to only run on known compatible virtual machines 
(ie. VirtualBox and VMware).

You will need to configure QEMU with an appropriate network card. I don’t use 
QEMU much to run DOS. Can’t help you there.

Then if it is one of the Network cards supported by FDNET, you can just remove 
the “start” option.

Otherwise, you could create a custom batch called FDNETPD.BAT that knows how to 
configure your packet driver. You would then place both your custom FDNETPD.BAT 
and Packet Driver in the FDNET directory. Then running FDNET should bring up 
your networking. This prevents the need for customizing the FDCONFIG and/or 
FDAUTO every time you reinstall, upgrade the OS or update packages. 

Hope that helps at least a little.

:-)

Jerome

> 
> -- 
> Phil Reynolds
> mail: phil-free...@tinsleyviaduct.com
> Web: http://phil.tinsleyviaduct.com/
> 
> 
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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Alain M.]

No, I made a distributable cd with qemu for XP. Now it is not needed any 
more. I just found this:

version 1.3.0pre10:
- Changed license to GPL version 2

It will certainly make my life easier.

Alain

Robert Riebisch escreveu:
> Alain M. wrote:
> 
>> I have already done this for Kqenu (the accelerator for Qemu) which is
>> also non-distributable.
> 
> a. As of version 1.3.0pre10 KQEMU is released under GNU GPL v2.
> b. Do you mean, that you made a KQEMU port for use in plain DOS?
> 
> Robert Riebisch

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Robert Riebisch]

Alain M. wrote:

> I have already done this for Kqenu (the accelerator for Qemu) which is
> also non-distributable.

a. As of version 1.3.0pre10 KQEMU is released under GNU GPL v2.
b. Do you mean, that you made a KQEMU port for use in plain DOS?

Robert Riebisch
-- 
BTTR Software
http://www.bttr-software.de/

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Alain,

Alain M. schrieb:
>> (PROTMAN.DOS, PROTMAN.EXE) and the Bind utility (NETBIND.COM). This is 
>> unfree software, the files are included in MS Client, LAN Manager and Co.
> 
> Here I disagree. MS-Client is free software, even if not GPL or 
> distributable. But it can be used along with free software: include a 
> small batch-or-script that 1) downloads the original files with wget, 2) 
> extract what is neeed, 3) once there, anyone can "intenaly distribute" 
> his copies. This is legaly within the licence limits.

Yes, sorry, I meant free as in FSF not as in free beer. I also think 
the above would be perfectly legal. It would be a good idea anyway if 
the user sees the license before he downloads MS software, at least 
when FreeDOS is involved (which he could assume to be free as in FSF).

Another thought: The download of the MS files should be initiated with 
or directly after the *download* of the main software (bootdisk, 
network application, whatever) and NOT with the *start* of this 
software. Otherwise the user could be in a catch-22 situation (he'd 
have to download a file to be able to download files).

> We (Andreas and I) have losta a lot of time with Watt-32, I recommend 
> WatTcp which is small and fast. Unfornunatly WatTcp is 16 bits, I don't 
> know if it is feasible to por it to WatcomC compiler.

This is an interesting point for me, as I am not a programmer and have 
no practical experience with these libraries - I only use them when 
they are already working in an application. Thanks for the inside view!
Uli

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Alain M.]

Hi Ulrich,

Thanks for the nice explanation, 2nd version. I would like to make a few 
comments.

> 3. To activate the hardware driver and the DIS_PKT converter we need 
> other parts from the NDIS 2 universe: The Protocol Manager driver 
> (PROTMAN.DOS, PROTMAN.EXE) and the Bind utility (NETBIND.COM). This is 
> unfree software, the files are included in MS Client, LAN Manager and Co.

Here I disagree. MS-Client is free software, even if not GPL or 
distributable. But it can be used along with free software: include a 
small batch-or-script that 1) downloads the original files with wget, 2) 
extract what is neeed, 3) once there, anyone can "intenaly distribute" 
his copies. This is legaly within the licence limits.

I have already done this for Kqenu (the accelerator for Qemu) which is 
also non-distributable. I can send information to anyone that is 
interested in making a package of it.

> Yes, sorry, bad idea. WatTCP and Watt-32 are free and widely used 
> TCP/IP stacks that work great against the packet driver interface.

We (Andreas and I) have losta a lot of time with Watt-32, I recommend 
WatTcp which is small and fast. Unfornunatly WatTcp is 16 bits, I don't 
know if it is feasible to por it to WatcomC compiler.

Alain

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Tom!

>> So on the driver side, PKT and ODI drivers fade out, which only
>> leaves NDIS2.
> And packet driver over NDIS
>> Which means we are stuck with MS Client / LAN Manager 

> this is unrelated.
> NDIS (or packet driver) is a network driver (layer 2)
> MS client is a protocol handler (layer 3/4), which is something entirely 
> different

Thanks for correcting me! I really was too unspecific. Of course 
"NDIS" means a whole architecture which is structured according to the 
ISO model you quoted. NDIS specifies a) drivers for the network card, 
b) protocol drivers and c) the Protocol Manager driver and d) some 
other layers in between, like bridges (see 
).

So I try again. ;-) What I meant to say:

1. Most network drivers that card manufacturers still release for DOS 
(and hopefully continue to write) are supposed for the NDIS 2 
architecture.

2. Hardware drivers for the NDIS 2 architecture can be used as packet 
drivers through a free converter called "DIS_PKT". This is a good 
thing, as most TCP/IP applications for DOS need a packet driver interface.

3. To activate the hardware driver and the DIS_PKT converter we need 
other parts from the NDIS 2 universe: The Protocol Manager driver 
(PROTMAN.DOS, PROTMAN.EXE) and the Bind utility (NETBIND.COM). This is 
unfree software, the files are included in MS Client, LAN Manager and Co.

> Teach DIS_PKT to talk directly to NDIS, and you are done.

Yes. The current situation is a bit absurd: We have a multiprotocol 
driver (the packet driver) working atop of another multiprotocol 
driver (NDIS). And the only protocol still needed is TCP/IP.

> probably easier (and much more useful) than teaching Arachne NDIS

Yes, sorry, bad idea. WatTCP and Watt-32 are free and widely used 
TCP/IP stacks that work great against the packet driver interface.

So the only missing free link is that from DIS_PKT to the NDIS2 
hardware driver.

I did a bit of googling.

DIS_PKT 9 incl. source (used by many people):
ftp://ftp.cc.umanitoba.ca/software/pc_network/dis_pkt9.zip

or DIS_PKT 11 (newer, there's no difference for me as user): 


The NDIS documentation


Much harder to find are source code examples of ndis2 hardware 
drivers. There was a "NDIS device driver kit" (NDDK) about NDIS 2. It 
was part of the OS/2 Device Driver Kit (OS2 DDK) that IBM once offered 
for download, but has been withdrawn from their website.

Things seem to be really historic. People desperately asked for 
example source code for NDIS2 hardware drivers more than 10 years ago. 
So this is not really a new territory.  ;-) (But I am writing this to 
people developing a free version of *DOS* so this might be not new to 
them either). :-)

Ulrich

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Eric Auer]

Hi again,

> So on the driver side, PKT and ODI drivers fade out, which only
> leaves NDIS2. Which means we are stuck with MS Client / LAN Manager
> Client. Unless there is some new free networking software for DOS.
...
> MS Client's protman (PROTMAN dot DOS / EXE) to configure a) the NDIS
> driver of the card and b) the free DIS_PKT shim and then MS Client's
> NETBIND.COM to bind these two...
...
> Wishlist (it's nearly christmas, OK?) Let Arachne directly talk to the
> NDIS driver. Or better: Let there be a free external TSR TCP/IP kernel
> (stack) that communicates directly to the NDIS driver, so everything
> else could use this kernel.

This would only help Arachne, not the rest. Why not write a free
replacement for NETBIND and PROTMAN?  I am sure only a fraction
of their functionality is actually used to send configuration
parameters to DIS_PKT. And Arachne and other DOS apps are happy
with the packet driver side of DIS_PKT, so there is no need to
teach them how to talk with NDIS directly.

So basically I agree with Tom:

> Teach DIS_PKT to talk directly to NDIS, and you are done.
> probably easier (and much more useful) then teaching Arachne NDIS
...
> Pointless. Noone will ever talk to this (hypothetical) TCP/IP kernel
> this millenium ;)

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Eric Auer]

Hi Uli,

> > There is a DOS version of the Linux smbclient, a FTP style
> > Samba / "Windows network neighborhood" client...

> Unfortunately the site http://mik.mkw.ru/dos-stuff/ is down.

It was on that site - a separate smbclient download was there.

> Maybe this info from OpenAFS could be useful?

AFS is something exotic and I think a BIOS API on int 5c is
exotic, too. I wonder which BIOSes support it...

> Maybe the developers of WatTCP/Watt-32 could answer this.

I hope you can convince them to add some connection persistence
data kept in a resident block of DOS memory to their library :-)

>> 2. Using a NDIS driver for TCP/IP networking (with DIS_PKT).

> AFAIK DIS_PKT and DIS_PKT9 are already free

Interesting, then why do you have to get MS Client to get them?
How about ODI PKT drivers / adapters?

> not free is NDIS3PKT (NDIS3NT, NDIS3CE) which provides a packet driver
> interface in Windows 9x/NT/CE.

No real problem if you ask me :-).

Eric



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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Tom Ehlert]

Hi Ulrich,

> So on the driver side, PKT and ODI drivers fade out, which only
> leaves NDIS2.
And packet driver over NDIS

> Which means we are stuck with MS Client / LAN Manager 
> Client. Unless there is some new free networking software for DOS.
this is unrelated.

NDIS (or packet driver) is a network driver (layer 2)
MS client is a protocol handler (layer 3/4), which is something entirely 
different

> Concerning applications, you mention that instead of using MS Client,
> applications could directly talk to NDIS.


> This would make things a lot more easier. At the moment I use MS 
> Client's protman (PROTMAN.DOS, PROTMAN.EXE) to configure a) the NDIS 
> driver of the card and b) the free DIS_PKT shim and then MS Client's 
> NETBIND.COM to bind these two. Pretty complicated, just to use a NDIS 
> driver as packet driver, just to use Arachne...
Teach DIS_PKT to talk directly to NDIS, and you are done.
probably easier (and much more useful) then teaching Arachne NDIS


> Wishlist (it's nearly christmas, OK?) Let Arachne directly talk to the
> NDIS driver. Or better: Let there be a free external TSR TCP/IP kernel
> (stack) that communicates directly to the NDIS driver, so everything 
> else could use this kernel.
Pointless. Noone will ever talk to this (hypothetical) TCP/IP kernel
this millenium ;)

> And, of course, a free DOS smbclient.
don't hold your breath ;)

Tom


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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Tom,

thanks a lot for your answers!

So on the driver side, PKT and ODI drivers fade out, which only 
leaves NDIS2. Which means we are stuck with MS Client / LAN Manager 
Client. Unless there is some new free networking software for DOS.

Concerning applications, you mention that instead of using MS Client, 
applications could directly talk to NDIS.

This would make things a lot more easier. At the moment I use MS 
Client's protman (PROTMAN.DOS, PROTMAN.EXE) to configure a) the NDIS 
driver of the card and b) the free DIS_PKT shim and then MS Client's 
NETBIND.COM to bind these two. Pretty complicated, just to use a NDIS 
driver as packet driver, just to use Arachne...

Wishlist (it's nearly christmas, OK?) Let Arachne directly talk to the 
NDIS driver. Or better: Let there be a free external TSR TCP/IP kernel 
(stack) that communicates directly to the NDIS driver, so everything 
else could use this kernel.

And, of course, a free DOS smbclient.

;-)

Uli


Tom Ehlert schrieb:
>> The other idea is to write a free replacement for MS Client.
>> I think this would be a big task, so let's ask: How urgently is it 
>> needed?
> this would be very nice and useful.
> OTOH noone is ever going to implement this, irrelevant how 'urgent'
> you'd call it.
> 
> So we'll have to use use MS Client to access Windows/Samba servers
> for the next few hundred years.
> 
>> *Drivers*: How are other peoples experiences with modern network 
>> cards?
> So far I found a NDIS driver for *every* card, with the notable
> exception of DLINK cards. Solution is easy: avoid DLINK.
> 
>> Are there still packet drivers or at least ODI drivers 
>> included?
> some provide ODI, very few provide packet drivers.
> So generally you're left with DIS_PKT.
> 
> 
>> Or is NDIS2 the only DOS driver left that is still supported
>> by manufacturers?
> in general, yes.
> 
>> Then you need indeed at least PROTMAN.DOS, 
>> PROTMAN.EXE and NETBIND.COM or free replacements for these three files
>> to get the network up.
> or teach your application to talk to NDIS directly (a bit more
> complicated then packet, but not really difficult either)
>
>> But what, if they even stop to support NDIS2?
> then we are in trouble. fortunately this won't happen soon
> 
>> I mean, it is also pretty old, isn't it?
> younger then packet or ODI
> 
>> Instead: Couldn't we just get the network drivers from GNU/Linux to
>> work under FreeDOS and to provide a packet driver interface?
> not really
> 
> Tom

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Eric!

> There is a DOS version of the Linux smbclient, a FTP style
> Samba / "Windows network neighborhood" client... 

Sorry, I can't find it. So far I only found the following links:

A port of the SMB library by Richard Sharpe, GNU GPL:
http://www.bgnett.no/~giva/misc/dossmb02.zip

I read on Club DR-DOS Wiki about a DJGPP port of Mplayer which should 
have this feature:
"Input: ftp dvdread(external) smb network"
Unfortunately the site http://mik.mkw.ru/dos-stuff/ is down.

Maybe this info from OpenAFS could be useful?
http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/dev/user/amb/openafs/src/TechNotes-WIN9X

snip---
The main program of the Win9x client, afsd.exe, is implemented as a 
32-bit DOS program.  It is compiled using the DJGPP compiler and runs 
in a Windows 9x DOS virtual machine.
  [...]
The Windows AFS clients communicate with user applications using the 
SMB protocol, as described above.  SMB communication is done using the 
Netbios interface.  In Win32, there is a built-in function Netbios() 
which accomplishes this.  In a DOS program, however, this function is 
unavailable.  However, Netbios functionality is available in the BIOS 
by calling interrupt 0x5c.  The NCB (Netbios Control Block) and data 
buffer must be in conventional DOS memory, i.e., below 1 MB.  This 
memory can only be accessed in DJGPP by using the DOS memory access 
functions: dosmemget(), dosmemput(), _farpeekX() and _farpokeX().  [...]
-snap--


> It WOULD be nice to have a driver which
> keeps running, but afair, the current Watt32 stack is just
> a library which is loaded each time when you start a program
> compiled for Watt32 use. The problem here is that this means
> that the config has to be processed each time. Maybe somebody
> could modify Watt32 so that it allocates some shared area of
> DOS memory to store the current config? 

Maybe the developers of WatTCP/Watt-32 could answer this.



There's also Trumpets freeware NTCPDRV kernel (no source).

  >> 2. Using a NDIS driver for TCP/IP networking (with DIS_PKT).
> 
> This part is alledgedly very simple: I think it would be
> very good to write a free replacement for DIS_PKT! 

AFAIK DIS_PKT and DIS_PKT9 are already free (maybe the "binary must 
show modification message" restriction wouldn't be OK for Richard M. 
Stallman, but a fish is not as big as a Gnu ;-).

---snip from DIS_PKT9
; DIS_PKT.ASM - Adapter provides Packet Driver v1.09 interface over
; NDIS.
; Version 1.07  18 May 1991  by Joe R. Doupnik, Utah State Univ.
; Version 1.08  9 Aug 1991 by Dan Lanciani, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
; Version 1.09  3 Nov 1991 by Joe R. Doupnik, Utah State Univ.
; Copyright (C) 1988 - 1991 FTP Software, Inc.
;
; This unmodified source file and it's executable form may be used and
; redistributed freely.  The source may be modified, and the source or
; executable versions built from the modified source may be used and
; redistributed, provided that this notice and the copyright displayed
; by the exectuable remain intact, and provided that the executable
; displays an additional message indicating that it has been modified,
; and by whom.
---snap

What's not free is NDIS3PKT (NDIS3NT, NDIS3CE) which provides a packet 
driver interface in Windows 9x/NT/CE. (f.i. if you want to run Arachne 
in a DOS Box.)

Uli


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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Eric Auer]

Hi all,

> >> files from MS Client...

There is a DOS version of the Linux smbclient, a FTP style
Samba / "Windows network neighborhood" client... You could
also make something which runs in the background and gives
you a drive letter for the remote drive, but it would use
a lot of RAM. Actually MS Client uses much RAM, too ;-).
Of course you could try to solve this by using protected
mode. A DJGPP port maybe.

> > How hard would it be to port Linux's TCP/IP stack to Freedos?

There already are some nice TCP/IP stacks for DOS, like the
Wattcp and Watt32 ones. Note that they are NOT part of the
kernel in any way. It WOULD be nice to have a driver which
keeps running, but afair, the current Watt32 stack is just
a library which is loaded each time when you start a program
compiled for Watt32 use. The problem here is that this means
that the config has to be processed each time. Maybe somebody
could modify Watt32 so that it allocates some shared area of
DOS memory to store the current config? Then it could re-use
this config for the whole DOS session until you reboot. That
would make starting of networked DOS apps faster and it would
avoid flooding your DHCP server with requests while using DOS.

> > a very simple, albeit limited OS.  For some things such as
> > kiosks though, a network booted dos would be very nice.

That is easy - the Arachne browser supports various network
things such as web browsing, FTP, news, email... in DOS :-).

> > freedos 1.1 progresses I'd like to see a free replacement
> > for Microsoft Client get developed.

This client is usually meant for sharing drive letters and
printers with other Windows computers, so it is completely
different to a typical kiosk activity such as web surfing.

> IMHO MS Client is useful for two things:
> 1. Accessing SMB shares from a DOS machine.

Correct.

> 2. Using a NDIS driver for TCP/IP networking (with DIS_PKT).

This part is alledgedly very simple: I think it would be
very good to write a free replacement for DIS_PKT! While
we are at it, there should also be a free replacement for
ASPIDISK which uses SCSI/ASPI interface to access a disk
and give it a DOS drive letter. Note that there already is
a free ODI PKT driver which lets you use ODI drivers for
TCP/IP networking in DOS :-).

> Everything else is already there, as free software or public domain:
> A TCP/IP stack (internal: WatTCP, Watt-32 (LGPL); external: NTCPDRV
> (PD)), packet drivers and packet driver shims, and last but not least
> a lot of useful packet driver based TCP/IP applications.

> The other idea is to write a free replacement for MS Client.
> I think this would be a big task, so let's ask ... is it
> needed?

The DIS_PKT thing would be really good. The network drive thing
could wait a bit longer: In the meantime, you could use the
smbclient to fetch some files into a ramdisk at boot time if
you want a DOS "diskless client" :-).

> *Drivers*: How are other peoples experiences with modern network
> cards? Are there still packet drivers or at least ODI drivers
> included? Or is NDIS2 the only DOS driver left...

It seems that Ghost (disk imaging / backup) is still popular so
vendors still include ODI or NDIS but no packet drivers today?
I noticed that even several nForce chipsets come with DOS drivers
for ODI or NDIS. Unfortunately newer versions of the driver CDs
drop the drivers even though they still work. Instead, you only
get 1 Vista and 1 XP CD and have to fetch anything else online?

> by manufacturers? Then you need indeed at least PROTMAN.DOS,
> PROTMAN.EXE and NETBIND.COM or free replacements for these
> three files to get the network up.

I am not sure that you actually need all three to get DIS PKT up.
Maybe you or Alain already know more :-).

> But what, if they even stop to support NDIS2?

Then Ghost users will be unhappy ;-).

> Then FreeDOS had to write its own free drivers,
> like people do for GNU/Linux.

Not FreeDOS but all DOS in general. Drivers from the
crynwr collection already are free and open source.
Some vendors use them when writing DOS drivers for
their new hardware, but some fail to make the result
open source after that...

> Instead of NDIS, wouldn't it be better
> to write packet drivers then, which are already a free standard

I would already be happy with a free DIS PKT :-)

> So FreeDOS would need another "packet driver king".

There are some nice driver collections out there, for example
the Crynwr and Georg Potthast Sioux ones :-).

> Or can GNU/Linux network drivers somehow be used in FreeDOS?

Depends on their "layers". You do not want to port a driver
which is connected to complex aspects of Linux at many places.
But newer Linux is often quite modular, so you might be able
to get only the part needed for DOS. For another example, I do
NOT think that we should port Alsa sound drivers. Instead, a
port of only a SMALL number of small generic drivers like the
MPXPLAY AC97 and HDA sound drivers would be better. Because
many DOS games do not acc

Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

someone schrieb:
> Quoting Ulrich Hansen:

>> The legal situation is unfortunate: Some packages seem to include
>> files from MS Client, while Microsoft's license does not allow such
>> distribution.
> 
> How hard would it be to port Linux's TCP/IP stack to Freedos?  Dos is
> supposedly a very simple, albeit limited OS.  For some things such as
> kiosks though, a network booted dos would be very nice.  As work on
> freedos 1.1 progresses I'd like to see a free replacement for
> Microsoft Client get developed.  I hope there is careful consideration
> that dos's simplicity is it's strongest selling point.

I'd like to write down a few ideas about it. I know here are people 
with *much more* experience in DOS networking and I am not a 
programmer as well. So please correct me, if I'm wrong.

IMHO MS Client is useful for two things:
1. Accessing SMB shares from a DOS machine.
2. Using a NDIS driver for TCP/IP networking (with DIS_PKT).

Everything else is already there, as free software or public domain: A 
TCP/IP stack (internal: WatTCP, Watt-32 (LGPL); external: NTCPDRV 
(PD)), packet drivers and packet driver shims, and last but not least 
a lot of useful packet driver based TCP/IP applications.

The problem: MS Client's license "permits you to make and use an 
unlimited number of copies [...] for your internal use". You may 
"transfer the SOFTWARE on a permanent basis provided you retain no 
copies". So distribution is NOT allowed. There are two ideas to solve 
that problem.

For creating network bootdisks, Alain M. suggested (in PM) to write a 
script that runs on the user side. As I understand it, this script 
would ask the user to accept MS Client's license and then 
automatically download the appropriate MS Client files from their 
original download location, expand them and merge them into the 
bootdisk. It may be comparable to "PE Builder". This would respect the 
copyright.

The other idea is to write a free replacement for MS Client.
I think this would be a big task, so let's ask: How urgently is it 
needed?

*Drivers*: How are other peoples experiences with modern network 
cards? Are there still packet drivers or at least ODI drivers 
included? Or is NDIS2 the only DOS driver left that is still supported 
by manufacturers? Then you need indeed at least PROTMAN.DOS, 
PROTMAN.EXE and NETBIND.COM or free replacements for these three files 
to get the network up.

But what, if they even stop to support NDIS2? I mean, it is also 
pretty old, isn't it? Then FreeDOS had to write its own free drivers, 
like people do for GNU/Linux. Instead of NDIS, wouldn't it be better 
to write packet drivers then, which are already a free standard for 
DOS networking? So FreeDOS would need another "packet driver king". 
That's a bit utopic. Or can GNU/Linux network drivers somehow be used 
in FreeDOS?

*SMB*: I know everybody seems to be pretty enthusiastic on the web 
about MS Client and accessing and providing SMB shares from DOS to 
Windows XP or GNU/Linux Samba. Maybe everything worked well for them. 
I had a hard time with it. MS Client with TCP/IP protocol consumes a 
lot of memory, everything gets sluggish and if I want to make a DOS MS 
Client communicate with GNU/Linux Samba (from Debian Etch) I have to 
configure Samba in a way that we don't need to talk about security 
afterwards, as there isn't any left.

So is this really worth the effort?

Instead: Couldn't we just get the network drivers from GNU/Linux to 
work under FreeDOS and to provide a packet driver interface? DOSEMU 
emulates a DOS packet driver. And once Zipslack ran atop of DOS. Or is 
this a silly idea?

And now I have to go and buy some nice christmas gifts or I will have 
a bad time next week...
:-)
Uli

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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Ulrich Hansen]

Hi Alain,

thanks for your friendly feedback!

Alain M. schrieb:
> I believe that you should add a refernce to www.netbootdisk.com because 
> it is a very prectical way of putting it all toghether, including brand 
> new MotherBoards !

Thanks for the suggestion. I made some changes to chapter 
http://lazybrowndog.net/freedos/#Applicatio

I included the following lines and links:

--snip--
Another special type of applications are network bootdisks, which 
combine several network techniques. These bootdisks are mostly used 
for backup, restore and repair. They can be extremely helpful.

Examples are:

 * Bart's Network Boot Disk
 * Drivesnapshot
 * Netbootdisk

The legal situation is unfortunate: Some packages seem to include 
files from MS Client, while Microsoft's license does not allow such 
distribution.
--snap--

Is this OK?
Uli


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Re: [Freedos-user] Networking Freedos

[Alain M.]

Hi,

very interesting stuff. Thanks for compiling it.

I believe that you should add a refernce to www.netbootdisk.com because 
it is a very prectical way of putting it all toghether, including brand 
new MotherBoards !

Alain

Ulrich Hansen escreveu:
> Today I finished writing a long guide called "Networking FreeDOS".
> Maybe you like to take a look at it?
> 
> http://www.lazybrowndog.net/freedos
> 
> I would be happy to receive your feedback.
> 
> Thanks! Have a nice chrismas time!
> Ulrich Hansen
> 
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