Re: [FRIAM] recap on Rosen

. But, I admit that I'm not as well-versed in computability as I should (or would like to) be. How does the recursion theorem refute RR's claim? Can you be a bit more precise? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com A government that is big enough to give you all you want

Re: [FRIAM] The quintessence of complexity thinking

. For that, I'd say studying fractals is the best way to get the point across. Cellular automata might be a close second. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Liberty is the only thing you can't have unless you give it to others. - -- William Allen White -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE

Re: [FRIAM] cultural universals, continued

differentiation of anthro from bio - social transmission. Culture is transmitted from one person to another, and more importantly from one generation to another via social mechanisms, not biological. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The only good is knowledge

Re: [FRIAM] questions continued - reply to glen

ignorant to know _how_? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The world henceforth will be run by synthesizers, people able to put together the right information at the right time, think critically about it, and make important choices. - E.O. Wilson -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE

Re: [FRIAM] questions

be a little bit biological and a little bit cultural (e.g. as with intertwined feedback), which is what we see everywhere else in biology and medicine. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I don't know why we are here, but I'm pretty sure that it is not in order to enjoy ourselves

Re: [FRIAM] ABM - OO

the time, don't have the money, don't have the energy, hate to fail, etc. to actually _waste_ your time trying to do the work yourself, then you already have the answer. If you're thinking that way, then most everyone else is thinking that way, too. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

, it will _merely_ produce one of those prescribed 10 possible answers. (I live for the day when I ask a computer: Is this true or false? And it answers: Neither, it's _blue_! ;-) - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com A government which robs Peter to pay Paul, can always

Re: [FRIAM] enough of Robert Rosen

think we should categorize RR terms as a dead-end... not yet, anyway. However, if you don't like speculative theoretical discussions, then feel free to avoid them! [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com If people never did silly things, nothing intelligent would ever

Re: [FRIAM] not enough of Robert Rosen

any basic flaw in them. But, as said, being non-schooled in these matters that doesn't necessarily mean very much. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Government never furthered any enterprise but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. -- Henry David

Re: [FRIAM] enough of Robert Rosen

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marcus G. Daniels on 01/08/2008 02:18 PM: Glen E. P. Ropella wrote: Well, correct me if I'm wrong, but GP currently requires a human to set up the objective function. And even in the cases where a system is created so that the objective function

Re: [FRIAM] not enough of Robert Rosen

-computation, then perhaps sporadic interactions with the environment can help a computer resolve unexpected exceptions gracefully. - From that perspective the phrase holarchy of formal systems may well be self-contradictory and only reality is capable of forming holarchies. - -- glen e. p. ropella

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

. In case (2), the _statement_ might not be informal but the system in which it's stated would become informal (in this new softer sense of the word). - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

. The presentation in Fundamentals ... is more explicit. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com There's no sense in being precise when you don't even know what you're talking about. -- John Von Neumann -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

that others are far more credible and correct. * I'll try to use complex_rr when talking specifically about RR's definition of complexity. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. -- Socrates -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

=937dc8c7b72003e57bbd2971e7ae71be - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com One of the symptoms of an approaching nervous breakdown is the belief that one's work is terribly important. -- Bertrand Russell -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

. [grin] I'm not saying that any of these are true; but they are certainly defensible positions... as defensible as the assertion that the loops have no efficient cause. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first

Re: [FRIAM] complexity and emergence (was: FRIAM and causality)

match R1-R4 in the first place. But, a good multi-modeling selection methodology will use all of R1-R4 (if not more, as Marcus haphazardly points out). It helps to use the word apply rather than the word use... as if you were applying a predicate to pre-existing models. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

that toast over my next pint. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance. -- Socrates -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

, it would be reasonable to assume that the more autistic and rational of us learn best through the development of compressed descriptions, whereas those of us addicted to getting our hands dirty learn best through the use of bad models and direct experience of applying those bad models. - -- glen e. p

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

in order to understand the system. I'd say that goes somewhere. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda. -- George W. Bush

Re: [FRIAM] Judith Rosen website

have a more basic understanding from Rosen himself. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Men who are unhappy, like men who sleep badly, are always proud of the fact. -- Bertrand Russell -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG

Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen

to. If I apologize for being an ill-educated bounder, could you provide me with a netref or two to work with? I apologize. Nick (if you give me the reference, will that be an instance of causality?) - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The ultimate result

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

purpose). By such selection we can _approach_ an accurate understanding of the system; but it is a limit process. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com There is nothing as permanent as a temporary government program. -- Milton Friedman -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version

Re: [FRIAM] Natural Design as a primitive property (was FRIAM and Causality)

for) the formalization you're looking for? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The fear of death follows from the fear of life. A man who lives fully is prepared to die at any time. -- Mark Twain -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG

Re: [FRIAM] VOIP Security

), but the silly carriers are trying to stop it, but eventually telephony, television, and all forms of networking (cellular and internet for now) will be a single system. Ugh! Don't you think that such homogeneity will inevitably lead to a collapse of that single system? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

accumulation and canalization of causes, i.e. where and how ignorance (particularly of negligible influences e.g. events very FAR away in space or time) affects causality. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Reprove not an arrogant man, lest he hate you; reprove a wise man, and he

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

by partial order. This will be true as long as the locality is not small enough to hit the quantum discretization boundary. Does that make more sense? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com People with courage and character always seem sinister to the rest. -- Hermann

Re: [FRIAM] FRIAM and causality

. If someone wants to be skeptical of a model that has never made a bad call in a millions of circumstances, that's fine but at some point one has to wonder if they are philosophy students. No truer words were ever spoken. [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com

Re: [FRIAM] retrocausality...forgotten attachments

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Those attachments didn't come through to me. They seem to be Mac files and binhex reports Short file. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com If you haven't found something strange during the day, it hasn't been much of a day

Re: [FRIAM] Kudos to the social scientists

, and bombs. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Think not those faithful who praise all thy words and actions; but those who kindly reprove thy faults. -- Socrates -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http

Re: [FRIAM] Kudos to the social scientists

, memorizing poems and such. After the printing press, any yahoo with a little money could work the machine and generate piles of arguments. So, rather than deeper delusion/deception, I think what we'll see is a higher quantity of delusion/deception but a lower _quality_ of delusion/deception. - -- glen e

[FRIAM] Kudos to the social scientists

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Army Enlists Anthropology in War Zones http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/05/world/asia/05afghan.html?_r=2ref=worldoref=sloginoref=slogin - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Liberty is meaningless if it is only the liberty

Re: [FRIAM] Kudos to the social scientists

them). Further, of any batch of newly trained scientists, some will go to the dark side. But, some will also go to the light side. Ultimately, even the evil scientists do good if they are actually scientists and not shills for their institution. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http

Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex

of complexity rather than a definition of it. And if that's the case, it brings us back to complexity being an ascribed attribute rather than an inherent property. == - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I believe in only one thing: liberty; but I do not believe in liberty

Re: [FRIAM] politics and cliques

your point, then I'm starting to get it. Thanks for sticking with it. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Know ten things. Say nine. -- unknown -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http

Re: [FRIAM] politics and cliques

for heuristic value. Pure semantics is best for understanding but near useless for prediction. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over good intentions

Re: [FRIAM] politics and cliques

. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com We think in generalities, but we live in detail. -- Alfred North Whitehead -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG3xnKZeB+vOTnLkoRAm

Re: [FRIAM] politics and cliques

place along side fire, nuclear power and genetic engineering. All are amoral. It's how we use them for our benefit that will exercise our morals (ethics). - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com There is a tragic flaw in our precious Constitution, and I don't know what

[FRIAM] politics and cliques

. But, given the recent conversation about networks and cliques, I figured I'd throw this out and see what came back. [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I have an existential map. It has 'You are here' written all over it. -- Steven Wright -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE

Re: [FRIAM] politics and cliques

. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf. -- Robert Bloch -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFG2IEJZeB

[FRIAM] facebook for spooks

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6957828.stm - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted. -- Bertrand

[FRIAM] like mind = trading (was Reed's law)

the network you want them to come to. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I have an existential map. It has 'You are here' written all over it. -- Steven Wright -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http

Re: [FRIAM] Reed's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Glen E. P. Ropella wrote: what you'll say next? Can dialog occur asynchronously? Real, dirty, concrete, human dialog where it's clear when you've offended someone or it's clear that they're body chemistry is off that day? The above

Re: [FRIAM] Reed's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

is exactly analogous with the technique of e-mail distribution lists. And they are both forms of abstraction. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Whenever we depart from voluntary cooperation and try to do good by using force, the bad moral value of force triumphs over

Re: [FRIAM] Reed's law - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

: Reality - Receiver Let s be in Sender and r be in Receiver. If ToInterpret^-1(r) ~= ToPosit(s), then one can argue globally. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Of the tyrant, spies and informers are the principal instruments. War is his favorite occupation, for the sake

Re: [FRIAM] Facebook? iPhone?

in a social network and these threads would be preserved for future readers. If this is interest in this, I'll build one. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. -- H. L. Mencken -BEGIN PGP

Re: [FRIAM] Facebook? iPhone?

network to people I actually know quite well. This makes facebook seem more useful even though it's not. But, facebook (unlike linkedin) has reduced the frequency of the thought I wonder what XYZ's up to these days? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com If you are not free

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: Cheney on why we shouldn't invade Iraq -- 1994

league more synoptically. When he finally committed to being a loyal member of the executive team, he bought into the war-time power grab play. Since Bush is an experienced yell leader, perhaps Bush invoked some team spirit from Cheney? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http

[FRIAM] speed vs. rpm (was English and conservatism)

professes to really really care about doing something about climate change yet doesn't start driving along freeways at 55 mph instead of 75 mph is - like Gore - nothing more than a posturing demagogue. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com But what no person has a right

Re: [FRIAM] speed vs. rpm (was English and conservatism)

] wrote: Or, you drive your whatever gas guzzling car to work at 75mph to be productive ASAP, and make big $$$. Which you then use to by $100k Tesla sports car which you drive at 130mph creating no emissions. Such a person should get many tax breaks, IMO. ;-) - -- glen e. p

Re: [FRIAM] Information Technology Judiciary

, and restrict government to a tiny portion of political activities. But I have no evidence that would result in a more civil society. [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com A government that is big enough to give you all you want is big enough to take it all away. -- Barry

Re: [FRIAM] Information Technology Judiciary

like John Yoo, Steven Aftergood, and Ray Kurzweil? Not to mention a pleasant fattening of the old wallet ... And to reap all that reward directly from the free money doled out by the taxpayer to boot?!? - From that perspective, it's easy to see the attraction. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846

Re: [FRIAM] Information technology judiiciary.

who refer to themselves as experts) seem to have WAY more GAS than ordinary people. So, an IT-Judiciary would essentially be a bunch of pompous ... [cough] ... experts with more flatulence than a normal political/ideological discussion amongst non-experts. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846

Re: [FRIAM] simulation and mathematics

in that they must _represent_ some other thing, a referent. Unless the symbols being manipulated by the calculating machine refer to the properties/variables of some referent, then it's not a simulation... it's just a computation. And your questions are not tedious at all. - -- glen e. p

Re: [FRIAM] Intuition-geometry-computation-mathematics

-asses to get your humour, you have to be simple and state them in close proximity something like: Mathematics cannot be explained graphically! -- Peter Lissaman, Da Vinci Ventures! da Vinci, indeed. [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com There is all

Re: [FRIAM] Despite the Web, Americans Remain Woefully Ill-Informed

know many more things but know less about any single thing. And such a conclusion would be supported by rampant diagnoses of ADD and autism (where ADD is a symptom and autism is an attempt to correct). - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com In all affairs it's a healthy thing

Re: [FRIAM] cognitive largess (was Re: reductionism)

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marcus G. Daniels wrote: Glen E. P. Ropella wrote: To be clear, the process works this way: 1) casual observation and psychological induction leads to a (usually mental) model 2) an experiment is designed based on that model 3) data are taken

Re: [FRIAM] Article on Epstein

help the _person_ explain that thing, then it's a misuse of the model. Likewise, if a person is attempting to predict something with a model and the model doesn't help the person predict anything, then it's a misuse of the model. Models are thinking tools, nothing more nor less. - -- glen e. p

Re: [FRIAM] Seminal Papers in Complexity

it is.) As such, there are plenty of people out there who actively resist the development of and application of rigorous method. Those are not (always) mathematicians. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com ... given any rule, however fundamental or necessary for science

[FRIAM] cognitive largess (was Re: reductionism)

myopia. The humble myopic is less myopic than the arrogant myopic. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Seek simplicity, and distrust it. -- Alfred North Whitehead -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http

Re: [FRIAM] Seminal Papers in Complexity

out of the plane. It's a kind of closure in that sense. A composition where a line _did_ cross another or jump out of the plane would be non-affine-planar (similar to non-linear). - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com A day an hour of virtuous liberty is worth a whole

[FRIAM] another idea for a generalized nonlinearity (was Re: Seminal Papers in Complexity)

(as in the affine plane described previously). So the linear algebra balanced set doesn't generalize very well, especially to vague descriptions of spaces and mappings between them. Glen E. P. Ropella wrote: But, there's no reason you couldn't define the same _type_ of thing with other composition operators

Re: [FRIAM] reductionism

taken via self-reporting is highly suspect (and usually misleading or flawed). So statements of preference are not to be trusted! Hence, though I may _say_ my preference is to flip-flop, it's probably not true. [grin] - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Men who

Re: [FRIAM] emergence as stop gap

named Terry Bristol claim that the universe is a kind of emergent cycle where the emergent things at the bottom emerge from the emergent things at the top in a kind of ourboros. And that makes the word emergent completely useless. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Those

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

differences that continue to make things interesting. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Philosophy is a battle against the bewitchment of our intelligence by means of language. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

the same flocking phenomenon in pop music, roller shoes, tikcle me elmo dolls, and the popularity of tv. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule. -- H. L. Mencken -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Robert Howard wrote: Some quotes from the same person: So, what's your point? - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Do I contradict myself? Very well, then, I contradict myself; (I am large -- I contain multitudes

[FRIAM] gepr introduction

at a defense contractor, ~2 years at SFI, ~3 years at SwarmCorp, ~2 years farting around in silicon valley, ~5 years at my current company. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com When buying and selling are controlled by legislation, the first things to be bought and sold

Re: [FRIAM] gepr introduction

Tertulia (which, as I understand, is no longer there). Stephen Guerin wrote: Hey Glen! Cool to see you here. Ed Regis has a book Who Got Einstein's Office?...We don't have Einstein's office but we can at least say we got Glen and Chris's office at 624 Agua Fria :-) - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

that frameworks might lead to question begging results circular arguments. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com I have the heart of a child. I keep it in a jar on my shelf. -- Robert Bloch -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using

Re: [FRIAM] Fwd: ABM

programmer did when the modeler wasn't looking. - -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-219-3846, http://tempusdictum.com Cynics regarded everybody as equally corrupt... Idealists regarded everybody as equally corrupt, except themselves. -- Robert Anton Wilson -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU

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