Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
Thanks Chris, Mea culpa. You’re right and I’m wrong and we’ll look into fixing the release process so PPMC only are binding. I will work with the project on its community. Cheers, Antoine > On Dec 22, 2022, at 12:57 AM, Christofer Dutz > wrote: > > Sooo … assuming we let Tuweni graduate, > > If you could only release with binding votes from the incubator. > How would you be able to release without it? > > Because technically as a TLP there is nowhere, where you could get those > missing votes. > > And if a project can’t release because there are too little PMC members able > to vote, that’s the direct path to the Attic. > > So please invest some time and effort into growing and engaging your > community. > Trust them with making changes and decisions. > Promote your project publicly and promote that people are welcome to come and > contribute. > Offer them to be their mentor for their first contributions. > > That’s my advice and happy to chat if you want some help with that all. > (Help like in guidance, not help, like in doing the work) > > Chris > > From: Antoine Toulme > Date: Thursday, 22. December 2022 at 08:48 > To: general > Subject: Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > > >> On Dec 21, 2022, at 12:55 AM, Christofer Dutz >> wrote: >> >> Hi all, >> >> I still think just because a resolution is added that it doesn’t mean the >> board will accept it. >> >> Having barely 3 +1 votes also seems an indicator that the rest of the IPMC >> doesn’t clearly believe Tuweni is ready for graduation. >> The incubator is for projects to learn how to do things the Apache way and >> to grow its community into a sustainable project. >> I see that the first part seems to be done, but the second part is >> completely missing. >> >> I also don’t agree that being in the incubator will keep anyone from >> contributing, I even think that most people know that incubating projects >> are usually the ones easiest to get involved in. >> So I would like to bring the counter-argument to the table, that growing the >> community might become harder, once Tuweni is a TLP. >> >> The problem I see is perfectly reflected by this: >> https://github.com/apache/incubator-tuweni/graphs/contributors >> >> Has anyone besides you – Antoine – ever done a release? >> Also did I have a look at your last release thread: >> There you had exactly 3 +1 votes, however one of them was from “Danno >> Ferrin” who seems to “only” be a Committer. >> A PPMC +1 vote would have been required here, so technically this release >> wasn’t ok. > Because this release didn’t have enough votes, we moved it to the general > incubator list where it was duly voted. > >> >> I think this project should focus on building the community, having others >> be the Release Manager for one or two releases and then to aim for >> graduation. >> >> Maybe I should make my opinion a bit more explicit by officially voting -1 >> >> So here goes: >> >> -1 binding >> >> Chris >> >> >> From: Antoine Toulme >> Date: Wednesday, 21. December 2022 at 07:02 >> To: general >> Subject: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation >> Folks, >> >> Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. >> >> The results are as follows: >> +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher (binding) >> +0: 0 >> -1: 0 >> >> Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and >> drafting a resolution for the board. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Antoine >> >>> On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: >>> >>> I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance >>> for final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Antoine >>> >>>> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: >>>> >>>> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is projects >>>> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new features on >>>> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that deep >>>> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. >>>> >>>> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. >>>> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and >>&g
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
Sooo … assuming we let Tuweni graduate, If you could only release with binding votes from the incubator. How would you be able to release without it? Because technically as a TLP there is nowhere, where you could get those missing votes. And if a project can’t release because there are too little PMC members able to vote, that’s the direct path to the Attic. So please invest some time and effort into growing and engaging your community. Trust them with making changes and decisions. Promote your project publicly and promote that people are welcome to come and contribute. Offer them to be their mentor for their first contributions. That’s my advice and happy to chat if you want some help with that all. (Help like in guidance, not help, like in doing the work) Chris From: Antoine Toulme Date: Thursday, 22. December 2022 at 08:48 To: general Subject: Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > On Dec 21, 2022, at 12:55 AM, Christofer Dutz > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I still think just because a resolution is added that it doesn’t mean the > board will accept it. > > Having barely 3 +1 votes also seems an indicator that the rest of the IPMC > doesn’t clearly believe Tuweni is ready for graduation. > The incubator is for projects to learn how to do things the Apache way and to > grow its community into a sustainable project. > I see that the first part seems to be done, but the second part is completely > missing. > > I also don’t agree that being in the incubator will keep anyone from > contributing, I even think that most people know that incubating projects are > usually the ones easiest to get involved in. > So I would like to bring the counter-argument to the table, that growing the > community might become harder, once Tuweni is a TLP. > > The problem I see is perfectly reflected by this: > https://github.com/apache/incubator-tuweni/graphs/contributors > > Has anyone besides you – Antoine – ever done a release? > Also did I have a look at your last release thread: > There you had exactly 3 +1 votes, however one of them was from “Danno Ferrin” > who seems to “only” be a Committer. > A PPMC +1 vote would have been required here, so technically this release > wasn’t ok. Because this release didn’t have enough votes, we moved it to the general incubator list where it was duly voted. > > I think this project should focus on building the community, having others be > the Release Manager for one or two releases and then to aim for graduation. > > Maybe I should make my opinion a bit more explicit by officially voting -1 > > So here goes: > > -1 binding > > Chris > > > From: Antoine Toulme > Date: Wednesday, 21. December 2022 at 07:02 > To: general > Subject: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > Folks, > > Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. > > The results are as follows: > +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher (binding) > +0: 0 > -1: 0 > > Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and > drafting a resolution for the board. > > Cheers, > > Antoine > >> On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: >> >> I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance for >> final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Antoine >> >>> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: >>> >>> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is projects >>> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new features on >>> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that deep >>> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. >>> >>> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. >>> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and >>> contribute on mailing list discussion, prs, code contributions, etc is the >>> most important part of building a self-sustaining community. >>> >>> >>> I’ll get off my soapbox now. >>> >>> - Josh >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 2:40 AM Christofer Dutz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry for asking, >>>> >>>> but Dave, could you please explain that reply … admittedly I didn’t >>>> understand what you wanted to say >>>> (Guess I would consider it advanced English and I simply didn’t understand >>>> it). >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> From: Dave Fisher
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
HI, > Because this release didn’t have enough votes, we moved it to the general > incubator list where it was duly voted. Sorry, that’s not how it works, the PPMC needs to vote on it first, and then once that has passed, vote for it on the IPMC list. If you don’t get enough votes on the podling's list, that may indicate a community issue. Either you need to find more PPMC members or try and engage existing ones. Kind Regards, Justin
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
> On Dec 21, 2022, at 12:55 AM, Christofer Dutz > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I still think just because a resolution is added that it doesn’t mean the > board will accept it. > > Having barely 3 +1 votes also seems an indicator that the rest of the IPMC > doesn’t clearly believe Tuweni is ready for graduation. > The incubator is for projects to learn how to do things the Apache way and to > grow its community into a sustainable project. > I see that the first part seems to be done, but the second part is completely > missing. > > I also don’t agree that being in the incubator will keep anyone from > contributing, I even think that most people know that incubating projects are > usually the ones easiest to get involved in. > So I would like to bring the counter-argument to the table, that growing the > community might become harder, once Tuweni is a TLP. > > The problem I see is perfectly reflected by this: > https://github.com/apache/incubator-tuweni/graphs/contributors > > Has anyone besides you – Antoine – ever done a release? > Also did I have a look at your last release thread: > There you had exactly 3 +1 votes, however one of them was from “Danno Ferrin” > who seems to “only” be a Committer. > A PPMC +1 vote would have been required here, so technically this release > wasn’t ok. Because this release didn’t have enough votes, we moved it to the general incubator list where it was duly voted. > > I think this project should focus on building the community, having others be > the Release Manager for one or two releases and then to aim for graduation. > > Maybe I should make my opinion a bit more explicit by officially voting -1 > > So here goes: > > -1 binding > > Chris > > > From: Antoine Toulme > Date: Wednesday, 21. December 2022 at 07:02 > To: general > Subject: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > Folks, > > Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. > > The results are as follows: > +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher (binding) > +0: 0 > -1: 0 > > Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and > drafting a resolution for the board. > > Cheers, > > Antoine > >> On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: >> >> I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance for >> final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Antoine >> >>> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: >>> >>> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is projects >>> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new features on >>> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that deep >>> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. >>> >>> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. >>> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and >>> contribute on mailing list discussion, prs, code contributions, etc is the >>> most important part of building a self-sustaining community. >>> >>> >>> I’ll get off my soapbox now. >>> >>> - Josh >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 2:40 AM Christofer Dutz >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Sorry for asking, >>>> >>>> but Dave, could you please explain that reply … admittedly I didn’t >>>> understand what you wanted to say >>>> (Guess I would consider it advanced English and I simply didn’t understand >>>> it). >>>> >>>> Chris >>>> >>>> From: Dave Fisher >>>> Date: Monday, 12. December 2022 at 06:19 >>>> To: general@incubator.apache.org >>>> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation >>>> Thanks. I think you are onto an idea of community that could be somehow >>>> explicitly part of the incubator’s curriculum. That’s a separate >>>> discussion. >>>> >>>> Best, >>>> Dave >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>> On Dec 11, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Willem Jiang >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> I agree we don't need to hold the Tuweni graduation for the release >>>> checking. >>>>> But if we want to build a sustainable Open Source project, we still >>>>> need to pay lots of attention to com
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
I agree with Christofer Dutz. I expressed my concerns about the diversity of the community, mainly because the community highly dependent on single contributor(Antoine Toulme), I did not directly vote -1 because I think it's better for Tuweni could continue to build community in Incubator and continue to vote when grows diverse community. If it is necessary to vote now, I give my vote -1(binding). I still think it is a good way to build diverse community in the Incubator, because mentors and other IPMC members can give more guidences and help. Christofer Dutz 于2022年12月21日周三 16:55写道： > Hi all, > > I still think just because a resolution is added that it doesn’t mean the > board will accept it. > > Having barely 3 +1 votes also seems an indicator that the rest of the IPMC > doesn’t clearly believe Tuweni is ready for graduation. > The incubator is for projects to learn how to do things the Apache way and > to grow its community into a sustainable project. > I see that the first part seems to be done, but the second part is > completely missing. > > I also don’t agree that being in the incubator will keep anyone from > contributing, I even think that most people know that incubating projects > are usually the ones easiest to get involved in. > So I would like to bring the counter-argument to the table, that growing > the community might become harder, once Tuweni is a TLP. > > The problem I see is perfectly reflected by this: > https://github.com/apache/incubator-tuweni/graphs/contributors > > Has anyone besides you – Antoine – ever done a release? > Also did I have a look at your last release thread: > There you had exactly 3 +1 votes, however one of them was from “Danno > Ferrin” who seems to “only” be a Committer. > A PPMC +1 vote would have been required here, so technically this release > wasn’t ok. > > I think this project should focus on building the community, having others > be the Release Manager for one or two releases and then to aim for > graduation. > > Maybe I should make my opinion a bit more explicit by officially voting -1 > > So here goes: > > -1 binding > > Chris > > > From: Antoine Toulme > Date: Wednesday, 21. December 2022 at 07:02 > To: general > Subject: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > Folks, > > Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. > > The results are as follows: > +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher > (binding) > +0: 0 > -1: 0 > > Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and > drafting a resolution for the board. > > Cheers, > > Antoine > > > On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: > > > > I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance > for final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Antoine > > > >> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: > >> > >> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is > projects > >> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new > features on > >> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that > deep > >> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. > >> > >> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. > >> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and > >> contribute on mailing list discussion, prs, code contributions, etc is > the > >> most important part of building a self-sustaining community. > >> > >> > >> I’ll get off my soapbox now. > >> > >> - Josh > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 2:40 AM Christofer Dutz < > christofer.d...@c-ware.de> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Sorry for asking, > >>> > >>> but Dave, could you please explain that reply … admittedly I didn’t > >>> understand what you wanted to say > >>> (Guess I would consider it advanced English and I simply didn’t > understand > >>> it). > >>> > >>> Chris > >>> > >>> From: Dave Fisher > >>> Date: Monday, 12. December 2022 at 06:19 > >>> To: general@incubator.apache.org > >>> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation > >>> Thanks. I think you are onto an idea of community that could be somehow > >>> explicitly part of the incubator’s curriculum. That’s a separate > discussion. > >>> > >>>
Re: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
Hi all, I still think just because a resolution is added that it doesn’t mean the board will accept it. Having barely 3 +1 votes also seems an indicator that the rest of the IPMC doesn’t clearly believe Tuweni is ready for graduation. The incubator is for projects to learn how to do things the Apache way and to grow its community into a sustainable project. I see that the first part seems to be done, but the second part is completely missing. I also don’t agree that being in the incubator will keep anyone from contributing, I even think that most people know that incubating projects are usually the ones easiest to get involved in. So I would like to bring the counter-argument to the table, that growing the community might become harder, once Tuweni is a TLP. The problem I see is perfectly reflected by this: https://github.com/apache/incubator-tuweni/graphs/contributors Has anyone besides you – Antoine – ever done a release? Also did I have a look at your last release thread: There you had exactly 3 +1 votes, however one of them was from “Danno Ferrin” who seems to “only” be a Committer. A PPMC +1 vote would have been required here, so technically this release wasn’t ok. I think this project should focus on building the community, having others be the Release Manager for one or two releases and then to aim for graduation. Maybe I should make my opinion a bit more explicit by officially voting -1 So here goes: -1 binding Chris From: Antoine Toulme Date: Wednesday, 21. December 2022 at 07:02 To: general Subject: [RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation Folks, Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. The results are as follows: +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher (binding) +0: 0 -1: 0 Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and drafting a resolution for the board. Cheers, Antoine > On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: > > I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance for > final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. > > Cheers, > > Antoine > >> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: >> >> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is projects >> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new features on >> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that deep >> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. >> >> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. >> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and >> contribute on mailing list discussion, prs, code contributions, etc is the >> most important part of building a self-sustaining community. >> >> >> I’ll get off my soapbox now. >> >> - Josh >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 2:40 AM Christofer Dutz >> wrote: >> >>> Sorry for asking, >>> >>> but Dave, could you please explain that reply … admittedly I didn’t >>> understand what you wanted to say >>> (Guess I would consider it advanced English and I simply didn’t understand >>> it). >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> From: Dave Fisher >>> Date: Monday, 12. December 2022 at 06:19 >>> To: general@incubator.apache.org >>> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation >>> Thanks. I think you are onto an idea of community that could be somehow >>> explicitly part of the incubator’s curriculum. That’s a separate discussion. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dave >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Dec 11, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Willem Jiang >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> I agree we don't need to hold the Tuweni graduation for the release >>> checking. >>>> But if we want to build a sustainable Open Source project, we still >>>> need to pay lots of attention to community building. >>>> >>>> >>>> Willem Jiang >>>> >>>> Twitter: willemjiang >>>> Weibo: 姜宁willem >>>> >>>>> On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 9:24 AM Antoine Toulme >>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hello folks, >>>>> >>>>> Apache Tuweni had a much smaller community when it started its >>> incubation at Apache. The path of this project has been impacted by the >>> domain it applies to and the pandemic certainly hasn't helped. Still it has >>> managed to create enough momentum to make regular releases and check off >>> all incubation checks. >>>>> Community bu
[RESULT][VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation
Folks, Thank you for your participation in the Apache Tuweni graduation vote. The results are as follows: +1: 3 Antoine Toulme (binding), Larry Mccay (binding), Dave Fisher (binding) +0: 0 -1: 0 Thanks all! We will proceed to the next step of voting for a PMC chair and drafting a resolution for the board. Cheers, Antoine > On Dec 20, 2022, at 8:45 AM, Antoine Toulme wrote: > > I’ve let the vote go on for a bit. I’d like to make sure we get a chance for > final votes and comments and I will close it by tonight PT time. > > Cheers, > > Antoine > >> On Dec 19, 2022, at 6:45 AM, Josh Fischer wrote: >> >> To build on what Dave is saying (from my experience at least) is projects >> will enter the incubator and they tend to focus on building new features on >> top of new features. Instead of focusing on how they can transfer that deep >> knowledge of the system to anyone who is willing to learn. >> >> Getting those people to feel comfortable stepping up can be a challenge. >> Making new comers (whoever they are) feel welcome to ask questions and >> contribute on mailing list discussion, prs, code contributions, etc is the >> most important part of building a self-sustaining community. >> >> >> I’ll get off my soapbox now. >> >> - Josh >> >> >> >> On Mon, Dec 19, 2022 at 2:40 AM Christofer Dutz >> wrote: >> >>> Sorry for asking, >>> >>> but Dave, could you please explain that reply … admittedly I didn’t >>> understand what you wanted to say >>> (Guess I would consider it advanced English and I simply didn’t understand >>> it). >>> >>> Chris >>> >>> From: Dave Fisher >>> Date: Monday, 12. December 2022 at 06:19 >>> To: general@incubator.apache.org >>> Subject: Re: [VOTE] Apache Tuweni graduation >>> Thanks. I think you are onto an idea of community that could be somehow >>> explicitly part of the incubator’s curriculum. That’s a separate discussion. >>> >>> Best, >>> Dave >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> On Dec 11, 2022, at 7:17 PM, Willem Jiang >>> wrote: I agree we don't need to hold the Tuweni graduation for the release >>> checking. But if we want to build a sustainable Open Source project, we still need to pay lots of attention to community building. Willem Jiang Twitter: willemjiang Weibo: 姜宁willem > On Sun, Dec 11, 2022 at 9:24 AM Antoine Toulme >>> wrote: > > Hello folks, > > Apache Tuweni had a much smaller community when it started its >>> incubation at Apache. The path of this project has been impacted by the >>> domain it applies to and the pandemic certainly hasn't helped. Still it has >>> managed to create enough momentum to make regular releases and check off >>> all incubation checks. > Community building is definitely still on the menu - right now and >>> later as well. We will continue building and including folks. We have >>> onboarded successfully multiple committers and have received contributions. >>> I expect this trend to continue and mature. > > The question is whether the best place for us to continue growing is >>> the incubator. The incubator adds additional checks on our releases and >>> slows down our cycles, which has historically driven folks to fork and move >>> away from the project. > > The incubator doesn't offer opportunities for community building, from >>> what I know. We will need to continue to build our image and presence to >>> attract contributors on our own. > > The project mentors have been nothing short of fantastic. They have >>> been helpful in maturing the project. In my opinion, we are using their >>> precious time when they should be engaged in helping other projects of the >>> incubator. > > With this, I want to thank the incubator. We had a great experience >>> building with you all. I personally believe we should free the incubator's >>> time and attention to concentrate on other projects. I also believe the >>> project is mature enough to function outside of the incubator. > > I vote +1 to graduate Tuweni from the incubator. > > Thanks, > > Antoine > >>> On Dec 7, 2022, at 3:37 PM, larry mccay wrote: >> >> We have also recently seen long term incubating projects with >>> considerable >> adoption falter. >> I consider the fact that they did not graduate early enough a >>> contributing >> factor here. >> >> Nothing wrong with incubation but staying in the incubator and >>> encountering >> attrition is different from TLP >> with some churn with new folks coming into an official TLP project >>> while >> others can fall off in a healthy way. >> >> Again, having the community test and release 14 separate releases >> demonstrates contributors in the community >> even if they aren't all materially contributing code. >> >> >> >> On Wed, Dec 7, 2022 at 3:45 AM Christofer Dutz < >>>
