Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Peter Donald]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 09:53, Daniel Rall wrote:
> Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> > I know, but reading it without the "full" introduction to the quote makes
> > it appear as we're talking about M$-ASP, and makes us look "bad" (not
> > that I care much about M$ anyway, but...). Another option is "expanding"
> > it and replacing it with application service provider in full...
>
> Expanding it is a good idea.

But the question remains - why do we need to even mention ASP. Can't we just 
say the FooMarket for the FooProduct has dried up ? ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
For every complex problem there is a solution that 
is simple, neat and wrong
---

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Re: ASPizer

[Sam Ruby]

Peter Donald wrote:
>
> (BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?)

I've gotten real close.  All Apache projects compiling clean, just one non-Apache 
project failing...

> One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is
> OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to see at Apache and I think the two
> main developers are Apache-esque ;)

That's the one.

http://openejb.exolab.org/list-archive/msg01404.html

It's a one line patch.  Forward and backward compatible.  Not even
acknowledged.  Of course, now it is moot as their Tyrex bretheren keep
reintroducing calls to long since deprecated and now removed methods in
log4j.  Of course, the original reason that I added Tyrex in the first
place is to support Tomcat 4.0, but the class that Tomcat 4.0 depends on
were removed seven months ago...

It's like herding cats, I tell ya. ;-)

- Sam Ruby


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Re: ASPizer

[Peter Donald]

Hi,

had a browse through all the documentation and it seems like an interesting 
and useful product. There is parts where it clearly overlaps existing 
products at Apache but there is other parts that look good.

They have a BuisnessObjects layer which is similar in role to torque (from 
turbine) - basically a cut down lightweight version of EJBs,

They also have a workflow layer which sounds similar to the workflow 
component in commons. However it looks like it is more fully matured and that 
the view / transitions / model are completely separated from controller. 
Looks interesting anyways.

It is difficult to asses the rest without having a look at the code but the 
rest of the framework looks monolithic to a degree. I am not sure how easy it 
would be to incorporate bits into a struts/turbine or other style setup but 
it is interesting.

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

--
 Where ignorance is bliss, 'tis folly to be wise.
--

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Re: ASPizer

[Peter Donald]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:52, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Endre Stlsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
> > thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.
>
> Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there?
>
> Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss discussion predated my
> involement, for example). who now is the chair of the PMC: introducing new
> thoughts, ideas, and ways of doing things is most definately possible.
> I've had my own agenda, but I started by understanding and contributing to
> the codebases that I wanted to influence first.
>
> In other words, I became part of the community.

I tried another technique - I complained loudly and often about things ;) For 
instance a while back, the process of project proposals was done on a private 
list. I complained because it wasn't open and it got changed ;)

Annoying people can be an effective convincing method if non-aggresive. 
Consider gump and it's mail-outs - that uses the same technique - ant it is 
relatively effective ;) (BTW Sam - have we ever had a clean build yet ?)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*--*
| "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want |
| to test a man's character, give him power."  |
|   -Abraham Lincoln   |
*--*

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Re: ASPizer

[Peter Donald]

On Sat, 20 Oct 2001 00:09, Endre Stølsvik wrote:
> | Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before
> | JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon
> | was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists...
>
> I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment
> would have been really _really_ cool.
>
> But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad.

One really kool and very good technically project you may want to look at is 
OpenEJB. Thats a project I would love to see at Apache and I think the two 
main developers are Apache-esque ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

"Artists can color the sky red because they know it's blue.  Those of us who
 aren't artists must color things the way they really are or people might 
 think we're stupid." -- Jules Feiffer 

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Re: ASPizer

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 22:56, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?
>
> Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long
> flamewar forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...

Oh good - so it wasn't just me ... ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

*---*
PROGRAM: n.  a magic spell cast over a computer allowing it to turn
one's input into error messages.  v.t.  to engage in a pastime similar
to banging one's head against a wall, but with fewer opportunities for 
reward.
*---*


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Daniel Rall]

Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> I know, but reading it without the "full" introduction to the quote makes it
> appear as we're talking about M$-ASP, and makes us look "bad" (not that I
> care much about M$ anyway, but...). Another option is "expanding" it and
> replacing it with application service provider in full...

Expanding it is a good idea.

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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Daniel F. Savarese]

+1 

daniel



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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Pier Fumagalli]

Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> on 10/19/01 5:50 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> +1... Just remove the word ASP between "decline" and "market" in the little
>> boxed text :)
>> 
>>   Pier
> 
> Why? That was a direct quote.
> 
> That isn't M$ ASP, it is 'application service provider'.

I know, but reading it without the "full" introduction to the quote makes it
appear as we're talking about M$-ASP, and makes us look "bad" (not that I
care much about M$ anyway, but...). Another option is "expanding" it and
replacing it with application service provider in full...

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Jon Stevens]

on 10/19/01 5:50 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> +1... Just remove the word ASP between "decline" and "market" in the little
> boxed text :)
> 
>   Pier

Why? That was a direct quote.

That isn't M$ ASP, it is 'application service provider'.

-jon


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Re: ASPizer

[Gunnar Rønning]

* Endre Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
|
| I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment
| would have been really _really_ cool.
| 
| But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad.

The jakarta process is not right for everybody and it is not the end of
the world if we have other successfull projects. Linux, PostgreSQL, 
JBoss, MySQL, Perl, X, etc. 

If you don't fit the requirements of Jakarta, why try to force it ? People
are different and there should be room for different styles of development. 
Dictatorship type ala MySQL and Linux wouldn't fit very well with Jakarta.

-- 
Gunnar Rønning - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Senior Consultant, Polygnosis AS, http://www.polygnosis.com/

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Re: ASPizer

[Sam Ruby]

Endre Stølsvik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
> thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.

Do I detect a bit of sarcasm in there?

Speaking as a relative newcomer (the entire JBoss discussion predated my
involement, for example). who now is the chair of the PMC: introducing new
thoughts, ideas, and ways of doing things is most definately possible.
I've had my own agenda, but I started by understanding and contributing to
the codebases that I wanted to influence first.

In other words, I became part of the community.

I am not unique in this manner, others have done it before me, and others
have done it since.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: ASPizer

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001, Pier Fumagalli wrote:

| > Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
| > every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
| > talking about?
|
| Actually, Jon was pro...

I've understood this by now, I kind of just threw that out there.. Just
for the fun of it. Didn't hit.. To bad..

| Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like Mark Fleury... Before
| JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge even existed) Jon
| was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists...

I'm just thinking that Jakarta having a full-fledged J2EE environment
would have been really _really_ cool.

But apparently not. People hate each other too much. How sad.

;-D

|
| > It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to
| > what you - the *main* man - want..
|
| Actually, not... The list of people is here
|  under the PMC section... But
| given that we're working together since a vry long time (some of us
| since 97), 90% of the times we simply agree on most topics...

Sounds like a nice, open structure, always glad and happy for new
thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things.


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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FW: looking for ASL material

[Pier Fumagalli]

We should link this  from the website.

Pier



-- Forwarded Message
From: David Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Organization: SRI International
Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2001 13:58:20 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: looking for ASL material

Hi -

One of the Web pages for Lucene says this:

Lucene is free software and is governed by the Apache Software License
(ASL)
and thus it is free. You can find more information about the ASL at the
Jakarta site
at http://jakarta.apache.org.

I've browsed the jakarta web pages for about 10 minutes, but haven't
found the ASL yet.  Could you please let me know where to look?

Thanks,

- David Martin
-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: ASPizer

[Pier Fumagalli]

robert burrell donkin at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> anybody can donate code to the Apache Software Foundation simply by
> creating code under The Apache Software License.

Err... Actually not. You can't... The ASL implies a copyright, and only with
the assignment of the copyright to the foundation you can "donate" code to
the ASF. The only problem is that you can't put copyright ASF on anything
you like, we have to accept that donation... If you still do it (basically
endorsing our name on something we don't want), we can sue you :)

Pier


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Re: ASPizer

[Pier Fumagalli]

Tim Vernum at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> How do you know that JBoss would have worked within Jakarta?

Simply, it wouldn't have... We would have been stuck in a very long flamewar
forever :) That's why Jboss is not @ Jakarta...

Pier


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Re: ASPizer

[Pier Fumagalli]

Endre Stølsvik at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> | Put your project on SourceForget.net. There is another project there that is
> | now hugely successful that we also rejected here and which I hosted for a
> | number of years on my own dime, the Jboss project. Hope is not lost.
> 
> So you (Jakarta) rejected Jboss. I didn't know that. How incredibly smart
> of you. Think about the synergies between Tomcat and Jboss!!! Wow!
> Incredible.

It was an incredible smart move indeed... I am still happy we didn't make it
happen... The two kinds of communities were (and still are) too different,
would have been a big clash...

> Were you (Jon) the front figure in that rejection too, hurling shit in
> every direction, handing out your minus one before knowing what you were
> talking about?

Actually, Jon was pro... Me and Stefano were against since we didn't like
Mark Fleury... Before JBoss moved over to SourceForge (before SourceForge
even existed) Jon was hosting all their CVS and mailing lists...

> It's just that Jakarta seems to be accepting and rejecting according to
> what you - the *main* man - want..

Actually, not... The list of people is here
 under the PMC section... But
given that we're working together since a vry long time (some of us
since 97), 90% of the times we simply agree on most topics...

Pier


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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Pier Fumagalli]

Jon Stevens at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Here is my proposal for new project creation guidelines. I have not linked
> it into the main site until I can get 3 +1 votes from the PMC and 0 -1 votes
> from the PMC.
> 
>   
> 
> I will accept any patches against this document and/or direct commits from
> PMC members.
> 
> :-)

+1... Just remove the word ASP between "decline" and "market" in the little
boxed text :)

Pier


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BCEL@Apache

[Markus Dahm]

Hi,

I wonder whether there has been met an agreement  by now to move BCEL 
(bcel.sourceforge.net) project over to Jakarta-commons. I know that Jason 
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> has broad up the subject, but since then I didn't 
receive any "stop or go" message.

I'm sorry, if I'm too impatient, but I'm a person who wants to get things 
rolling all the time ... ;)

Cheers
Markus

P.S. A first "migrated" version is available at
-- 
Email:  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   Phone: +49 30 838 75141
WWW:http://www.berlin.de/~markus.dahm/

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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Vincent Massol]

- Original Message - 
From: "Jon Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2001 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines


> Sam,
> 
> I have integrated the changes that you suggested, please take a look.
> 
> 
> 
> -jon

+1



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Re: [PROPOSAL] New Project Creation Guidelines

[Peter Donald]

On Fri, 19 Oct 2001 08:48, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Jon Stevens wrote:
> > Sam,
> >
> > I have integrated the changes that you suggested, please take a look.
> >
> >
>
> +1 on the proposal

+1 from me too 

though I guess I would prefer a less agresive tone ;)

>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> -
> To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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-- 
Cheers,

Pete


"Liberty means responsibility. That is 
  why most men dread it." - Locke



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