Re: Code conventions

[Andrew C. Oliver]

>>> It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s,
>> > Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.
>> > Don't you know?
>> > The less space your source code takes, the less space
>> your class file will take.
>> And smaller classes run faster.
>> > It must be true - 90% of people I've worked with seem
>> to live by that principle.
>
>Add to that the fact that if it was hard to write, it should be hard to
>read...

>:)

Someone told me if you use a really small font like courier 6pt then 
you don't even need an optimizing compiler.

-Andy



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http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!


The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
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Re: Code conventions

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/8/02 6:12 PM, "Tim Vernum" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s,
> 
> Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.
> 
> Don't you know?
> 
> The less space your source code takes, the less space
> your class file will take.
> And smaller classes run faster.
> 
> It must be true - 90% of people I've worked with seem
> to live by that principle.

Add to that the fact that if it was hard to write, it should be hard to
read...

:)

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
Be a giant.  Take giant steps.  Do giant things...


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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/8/02 2:49 PM, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I want to remove my name from this page:
> 
>   
> 
> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> 
> -jon
> 

This may be all over by now, but +1 from me...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Code conventions

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 1/8/02 8:53 AM, "Endre Stølsvik" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> 
> | My question is what are the consequences to forcing me to do #2 when #1 is
> | perfectly acceptable throughout the professional world?
> 
> That syntax is so bleedin' ugly that I would suspect you were a novice not
> knowing how to code.. ;)
> 
> PROFESSIONALS don't code using really, really ugly standards...

No, they consult the coding manual from the technology vendor.

 :D


> 
> if (something)
> {
>   Some block;
> }
> 
> That's so ugly I have a hard time parsing it.
> 
> The _only_ way which is worse, is:
> 
> if (something)
>   {
>   Some block;
>   }
> 
> How is is possible to devise such a _fantastically_ ugly way of writing a
> block? I have a hard time trying to _write_ that example there. It is so
> utterly incredible. I have to go through it, parsing all such code char by
> char, hitting the del key until a "{" appears after the if clause..!
> 
> ;)
> 

I'm glad that you put your own health and well-being on the line, assuming
the risks for your compatriots, by actually typing if blocks different from
your usual.  Since you did it in the context of an Apache public discussion,
you may apply for funding from the ASF for counseling and therapy, but
remember the out of network co-pay.


> But then, on a serious note, the un-enclosed "block" like this
> 
> if (something)
>   this;
> else
>   that;
> 
> is a bit dangerous.


I think it can be very dangerous, especially in a multi-programmer
environment. (Seriously...)

> If you start, kind of mindlessy, to play around with
> the code there, you all of a sudden insert a line extra after the that
> part, thinking that it will execute only in the else part. Which, of
> course, it won't, as it executes all the time..
> 
> It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s, IF you of course
> don't use "the really ugly standard", or worse, "the _fantastically_ ugly
> standard", mentioned above.
> 
> if (something) {
>   this;
> }
> else {
>   that;
> }

Foul!  Heathen!  Gaak!
 
> You could, if the this and that parts were very small, do this
> 
> if (something) { this; }
> else { that; }

Ug!  Please stop!  I beg you.
 
> Or prettify that as
> 
> if (something) { this; }
> else   { that; }


Hey!  You stole my code :)
 
> but now you're really moving along the edge..
> 
> :)
> 
> 
> 
> | "On your resume, I see that you were terminated for cause at Sun?"
> |
> | "Yes, I created too many classes with the opening brace on a separate
> | line..."
> 
> "WHAT?  You DARE coming in here, wasting my time, being an
> opening-brace-on-separate-line-ASSHOLE? You get the f*** outta here!!"
> ---
> "GUARDS! - Could you please shove this thing into the incer...  Erhm, I
> meant; show this ... person ... to the door?"
> 

LOL

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the
freeness of speech." - Benjamin Franklin



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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Jeff Turner]

On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 10:48:42AM -, Danny Angus wrote:
>  Jon wrote:
> 
> > My opinion is that there are to many peers in the process and that is what
> > is breaking Jakarta. This wasn't a problem until now. We are starting to
> > explode under our own ever growing weight.
> 
> I've been involved in other organisations that tried, from best intentions,
> to have a non hierarchical structure.
...

This is a meritocracy. In some projects, the 'merit slope' is so steep
you could ski down it :) Don't let the lack of obvious hierarchy blind
you to the very strong internal hierarchy. Even if people are cheeky to
Jon, they know where on the slope he sits ;)


--Jeff

> 
> d.

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Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Jeff Turner]

On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:29:18PM +1100, Peter Donald wrote:
...
> > To drive this point home, the subject line of this thread identifies
> > exactly one such set of duplication - between Turbine and Struts.  My
> > nagging lead Berin to propose moving the Avalon collections code into
> > commons, to which you responded, and I quote, "+/- 0".
> 
> I was hoping Jeff would do it as he seemed to be involved over there ;)

I saw the "+/- 0", and that Berin hadn't voted, and then thought of how
this would look to Commons people: as a code "dump"; abandoned by it's
authors, singlehandedly maintained by someone who might disappear at any
moment (from their POV; I'm not going anywhere;). Quite a big ask.

Though if you're okay with it (forking is a bit.. impolite:), I'll make
an attempt sometime late Feb (after holidays.. wheee).

> I have no time atm and no real motiviation to do it. Last time I was
> on the list I watched 3 things be proposed to commons - nobody even
> voted !!! There was no response whatsoever. Apparently Jeff has
> similar comments when he offered some of the avalon bits over there.

'twasn't Avalon code, but yes.. it pains me to think of all those XML
doctype decls flying around, unchanged.. ;)

The lack of project-wide sense of responsibility is the biggest problem
for Commons (and jakarta-taglibs, incidentally). It's something I aim to
help solve the old-fashioned way.

> * I no longer care about duplication and wheel reinvention (it will happen 
> anyway)

Yep, to a degree. Though without a simultaneous commitment to document
the resulting forks/duplications and preferably cull the old code, then
Jon's worst predictions will come true and we can kiss Jakarta goodbye
now. 

> > You can say all you want that you predicted how commons would turn out -
> > but lack of participation by people such as yourself have made such
> > predictions self fulfilling prophesies.
> 
> Heres what sucks about commons;
> 
> 1. People who are not associated with codebase nor ever contributed to it get 
> voting rights over codebase (who needs meritocracy anyways)

Has that turned out to be a problem in practice? Say if you think so,
and we can propose a modification to the charter: "The votes of those
who haven't committed to a project are non-binding".

> 2. Stable packages still have to go via sandbox and go through that whole 
> painful voting process (yet more non-contributors getting votes over codebase)
> 3. Im not a committer

You are. 'donaldp' listed for jakarta-commons and
jakarta-commons-sandbox.


--Jeff

> Change (1) and I will migrate the majority of excaalibur across in time (and 
> bitch and moan till (2)/(3) is changed). Change (1), (2) and (3) and I will 
> move stuff across tomorrow (though still take time to actually do releases).
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> ---
>  "Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your 
>  dancehall and bowling alley"   -- Dharma Montgomery
> ---
> 
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License change for new year ?

[Vincent Massol]

I have 2 questions :

1/ Now that we are in 2002, do we need to change the text in all our
license files to be : "Copyright (c) 1999-2002 The Apache Software
Foundation" instead of "Copyright (c) 1999-2001 The Apache Software
Foundation" ?

2/ Some license files only have "Copyright (c) 1999 The Apache Software
Foundation" and some others have a year range as in "Copyright (c)
1999-2001 The Apache Software Foundation". Should one be preferred over
the other ? Are they both valid ?

Thanks
-Vincent



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I'm tired of noise...

[Stefano Mazzocchi]

... so I go back to action.

When Forrest powers xml.apache.org, you'll know about it.

[I'll remain subscribed here, but don't expect much participation from
me: I'd rather spend my time doing something more useful than crying
about why this project isn't the project I dream about]

Take care.

-- 
Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
  able to give birth to a dancing star.
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche




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RE: Code conventions

[Ylan Segal]

> -Original Message-
> From: Tim Vernum [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:12 PM
> To: 'Jakarta General List'
> Subject: RE: Code conventions
>
>
> > It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s,
>
> Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.
>
> Don't you know?
>
> The less space your source code takes, the less space
> your class file will take.
> And smaller classes run faster.
>
> It must be true - 90% of people I've worked with seem
> to live by that principle.
>
How about having your code with a nice format. Then running it through a
utility that strips all formatting and makes the source file compact, and
then compile that.
This would make the code-format-promoting people happy, and also the
need-for-speed-at-every-cost people.
I remember somewhere looking at a utility like this once... but don't know
where.

Just a thought.

Ylan Segal.


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RE: Code conventions

[Tim Vernum]

> It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s, 

Yeah, but those two lines will make my code run slower.

Don't you know?

The less space your source code takes, the less space
your class file will take.
And smaller classes run faster.

It must be true - 90% of people I've worked with seem
to live by that principle.

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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Scott Sanders]

I am also willing to volunteer.  Please use the [EMAIL PROTECTED] account.  
Reading email is one of the things that I can do :)

Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Paulo Gaspar [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:58 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Volunteer Wanted
> 
> 
> Ok Ted,
> 
> At the moment I do not have enough time to assume the 
> responsibility for the whole thing but I am willing to help. 
> (I also do not have the time for flaming days like yesterday.)
> 
> One more making some of the work must be of some help.
> 
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted
> >
> >
> > The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to 
> share. Just hit 
> > reply-all so the other "webmasters" know you replied.
> >
> > Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer 
> helps out 
> > now and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I 
> > thought I would float the offer since it came up.
> >
> > I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages,
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html
> >
> > which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now).
> >
> > It's really not a problem.
> >
> > -T.
> >
> >
> > Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> > >
> > > First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta.
> > Second, acting as a receptionist at desk with a million 
> visitors a day 
> > is not what I call a dream job. The task should left to one 
> person but 
> > shared on a rotational basis.
> > >
> > > I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any
> > other volunteers? Regards, Ceki
> > >
> > > At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > > >I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >
> > > >and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with 
> the Webmaster 
> > > >emails, that would be great.
> > > >
> > > >Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > > >>
> > > >> I want to remove my name from this page:
> > > >>
> > > >> 
> > > >>
> > > >> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can 
> > > >> start contributing more than just being a pain in my 
> ass. Is that 
> > > >> cool?
> > > >>
> > > >> -jon
> > > >>
> > > >> --
> > > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> > >> For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> > >
> > >-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> > >-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> > >-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> > >-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > >For 
> additional commands, e-mail: 
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> > 
> 
> -- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> -- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> -- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> -- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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RE: email issues..

[Scott Sanders]

I did reply to him.   I told him that no License issues would prevent
it, but to just let people know that he was doing it.

Scott Sanders

> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] 
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:19 AM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: FW: email issues..
> 
> 
> Someone want to reply to this person directly?
> 
> -jon
> 
> -- Forwarded Message
> From: "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:43:09 -0600
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: email issues..
> 
> hi,
> 
>   i suspect that a recent attempt to block out spam
>   on my mail server might have inadvertantly blocked
>   out legitimate correspondence.
> 
>   if you have tried to reply to my last email,
>   i did not receive it.  i believe the problem is fixed
>   now.  i apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
> sincerely,
> / eitan suez
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Eitan Suez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: publishing question..
> 
> 
> Hi Jon,
> 
>   i visited the apache preFAQ at:
>http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html#java
> 
>   which mentioned your email address as a human contact
>   for non-technical questions concerning the apache java project.
> 
>   i have been working on a side project recently and am
>   working on a site that i hope to publish in the near
>   future.  the site is essentially an online reference
>   of javadocs (similar to jakarta's own alexandria project).
> 
>   i am trying to find out the procedure for obtaining
>   permission for publishing online the javadocs of existing
>   apache java api's (such as oro, xerces, etc..).
> 
>   for a more precise idea of the site that i intend
>   to publish, you may visit the following url:
>http://www.uptodata.com:8080/dbdoc/
> 
>   which is a temporary demonstration (password-protected)
>   version of the site.  you may use these credentials to
>   gain access:
> 
>username: dbdoc
>password: demo
> 
> Sincerely,
>   Eitan Suez
>   programmer
> 
> -- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> For 
> additional commands, 
> e-mail: 
> 
> 

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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> Could you please add
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> to the list of people receiving [EMAIL PROTECTED] mail

Done.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Ted Husted]

apmail,

Could you please add 

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

to the list of people receiving [EMAIL PROTECTED] mail

Thanks!

-- Ted husted ([EMAIL PROTECTED]).


Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> 
> Ok Ted,
> 
> At the moment I do not have enough time to assume the responsibility
> for the whole thing but I am willing to help. (I also do not have
> the time for flaming days like yesterday.)
> 
> One more making some of the work must be of some help.
> 
> Have fun,
> Paulo Gaspar
> 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> > Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 PM
> > To: Jakarta General List
> > Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted
> >
> >
> > The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to share. Just hit
> > reply-all so the other "webmasters" know you replied.
> >
> > Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer helps out now
> > and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I thought I
> > would float the offer since it came up.
> >
> > I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages,
> >
> > http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html
> >
> > which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now).
> >
> > It's really not a problem.
> >
> > -T.

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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Paulo Gaspar]

Ok Ted,

At the moment I do not have enough time to assume the responsibility
for the whole thing but I am willing to help. (I also do not have
the time for flaming days like yesterday.)

One more making some of the work must be of some help.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Ted Husted [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 9:21 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted
>
>
> The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to share. Just hit
> reply-all so the other "webmasters" know you replied.
>
> Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer helps out now
> and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I thought I
> would float the offer since it came up.
>
> I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages,
>
> http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html
>
> which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now).
>
> It's really not a problem.
>
> -T.
>
>
> Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> >
> > First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta.
> Second, acting as a receptionist at desk with a million visitors
> a day is not what I call a dream job. The task should left to one
> person but shared on a rotational basis.
> >
> > I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any
> other volunteers? Regards, Ceki
> >
> > At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
> > >I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > >
> > >and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
> > >emails, that would be great.
> > >
> > >Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > >>
> > >> I want to remove my name from this page:
> > >>
> > >> 
> > >>
> > >> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> > >> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> > >>
> > >> -jon
> > >>
> > >> --
> > >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:

> >> For additional commands, e-mail:

> >
> >-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> >-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> >-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> >-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
> --
> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Paulo Gaspar]

LOL

I am willing to help but I will not stop being a pain in your ass
when I find it necessary.

Please remember that I do not systematicaly disagree with you. I 
just disagree when I can not agree.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar


> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 8:50 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Volunteer Wanted
> 
> 
> I want to remove my name from this page:
> 
> 
> 
> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> 
> -jon
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 

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RE: Volunteer Wanted

[Marc Saegesser]

I was actually thinking along those same lines.  Tomcat 3.2.x is history and
I haven't found another place to stick my fingers into the code, yet, so I
wouldn't mind helping out a little bit with this.  BUT, I have NO desire to
hold such a position indefintely.  

I like the idea of a rotation.  Depending on the load and the number of
volunteers a two week rotation might be better.  How many messages per day
are we talking about.


Marc Saegesser 

> -Original Message-
> From: Ceki Gülcü [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 2:14 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Volunteer Wanted
> 
> 
> 
> First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta. 
> Second, acting as a receptionist at desk with a million 
> visitors a day is not what I call a dream job. The task 
> should left to one person but shared on a rotational basis. 
> 
> I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. 
> Any other volunteers? Regards, Ceki
> 
> At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> >
> >and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
> >emails, that would be great.
> >
> >Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >> 
> >> I want to remove my name from this page:
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> >> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> >> 
> >> -jon
> >> 
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> >
> >-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> >-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> >-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> >-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 
> --
> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
> 
> 
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> 
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> 
> 



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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Ted Husted]

The Webmaster box is a group account, and its easy to share. Just hit
reply-all so the other "webmasters" know you replied.

Peir used to help out, but he's off now. Another committer helps out now
and again, but its mostly just me now. Which is fine, but I thought I
would float the offer since it came up. 

I also just put up one of Jon's famous gatekeeper pages, 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/contact.html

which may cut down the traffic a bit (which isn't much now). 

It's really not a problem.

-T.


Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> 
> First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta. Second, acting as a 
>receptionist at desk with a million visitors a day is not what I call a dream job. 
>The task should left to one person but shared on a rotational basis.
> 
> I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any other volunteers? 
>Regards, Ceki
> 
> At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
> >emails, that would be great.
> >
> >Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> >>
> >> I want to remove my name from this page:
> >>
> >> 
> >>
> >> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> >> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> >>
> >> -jon
> >>
> >> --
> >> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >> For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
> >-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
> >-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
> >-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
> >-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> --
> Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Ceki Gülcü]

First, the page is outdated, Java Apache is not Jakarta. Second, acting as a 
receptionist at desk with a million visitors a day is not what I call a dream job. The 
task should left to one person but shared on a rotational basis. 

I am willing to be the first and take over for *one* month. Any other volunteers? 
Regards, Ceki

At 14:57 08.01.2002 -0500, you wrote:
>I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
>emails, that would be great.
>
>Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>> 
>> I want to remove my name from this page:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
>> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
>> 
>> -jon
>> 
>> --
>> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
>-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
>-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
>-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 

--
Ceki Gülcü - http://qos.ch



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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/8/02 11:57 AM, "Ted Husted" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Good idea. Done.

> and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
> emails, that would be great.

Maybe you will get lucky and get a volunteer.

-jon


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Re: FW: email issues..

[Ted Husted]

Eitan, 

All of the Jakarata source code and documenmtation is subject to the
Apache Software License. 

http://apache.org/LICENSE

So long as you follow the terms of those license, no additional notice
is required. 

Any additional non-technical questions concerning the Apache Jakarta
Project may be addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

-- Ted Husted


> -- Forwarded Message
> From: "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:43:09 -0600
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: email issues..
> 
> hi,
> 
>   i suspect that a recent attempt to block out spam
>   on my mail server might have inadvertantly blocked
>   out legitimate correspondence.
> 
>   if you have tried to reply to my last email,
>   i did not receive it.  i believe the problem is fixed
>   now.  i apologize for the inconvenience.
> 
> sincerely,
> / eitan suez
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Eitan Suez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:55 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: publishing question..
> 
> Hi Jon,
> 
>   i visited the apache preFAQ at:
>http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html#java
> 
>   which mentioned your email address as a human contact
>   for non-technical questions concerning the apache java project.
> 
>   i have been working on a side project recently and am
>   working on a site that i hope to publish in the near
>   future.  the site is essentially an online reference
>   of javadocs (similar to jakarta's own alexandria project).
> 
>   i am trying to find out the procedure for obtaining
>   permission for publishing online the javadocs of existing
>   apache java api's (such as oro, xerces, etc..).
> 
>   for a more precise idea of the site that i intend
>   to publish, you may visit the following url:
>http://www.uptodata.com:8080/dbdoc/
> 
>   which is a temporary demonstration (password-protected)
>   version of the site.  you may use these credentials to
>   gain access:
> 
>username: dbdoc
>password: demo
> 
> Sincerely,
>   Eitan Suez
>   programmer
> 
> -- End of Forwarded Message
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

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Re: Volunteer Wanted

[Ted Husted]

I'd say it should be the [EMAIL PROTECTED] 

and if anyone, including Paulo, want to help out with the Webmaster
emails, that would be great.

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> 
> I want to remove my name from this page:
> 
> 
> 
> I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
> contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?
> 
> -jon
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Volunteer Wanted

[Jon Scott Stevens]

I want to remove my name from this page:



I nominate Paulo to put his name there instead so that he can start
contributing more than just being a pain in my ass. Is that cool?

-jon


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.

Wrong guess.
=;o)

I am noisy but not a committer in any Apache projects.
Just posted a few patches on a couple of projects.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 7:01 PM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)
>
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.
> >
> > Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
> > =:o)
>
> My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
> demands required.
>
> - Sam Ruby
>
>
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 
>


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Re: Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Sam Ruby]

Paul Hammont wrote:
>
> There is some romance to extending the 'honor system' to the whole of
> Jakarta.  When we became committers we all treaded tentatively until
> we'd fully earned the respect of the seasoned veterans in the project in
> question.  An 'open' Jakarta would be nice, but even with a code of
> conduct , we'd inevitably get problems with
> incorrect/faulty/inappropriate commits.  How about for those that have
> been here for say two years?

First, this is not an issue that I plan to campaign strongly for.  I doubt
that there is a project or subproject under the Apache umbrella that I
could not get committer status in a relatively short order if I were to
demonstrate a sustained interest in that code base.

Second, a personal side note, possibly humorous to some.  What you
described is pretty much the opposite of how I joined this project.  Tomcat
was plain broken unless you ran on Solaris and with the latest JDK.  Same
thing was true for Watchdog.  Ant was barely useable.  And that was pretty
much all that existed on Jakarta at the time (anybody remember moo?).
Seeing as things were not getting done, and the PMC at the time was very
political and contained a number of non-coder types, I simply went about my
business of correcting what needed to be done.  For a while, I was also the
release manager of all things Jakarta - something that is hard to
comprehend today, but one thing that was for sure, when a release was made
- all the latest versions of everything worked together!

Ant was a particular focus of mine.  For a long stretch, I was essentially
the only committer.  Eventually I found capable successors, and let them
take over.  The reason I bring this up is that my current relation with
that team has evolved.  While I am still a committer, unless I am fairly
certain of what the implications of a change are, I may choose to submit a
patch instead and let someone else determine if my proposed change is the
right way to address a problem.

Third, I happen to have cvsroot authority.  There isn't a codebase around
that, given a sufficient emergency, I wouldn't choose to act first and deal
with the ramifications later.  I don't recall ever having exercised this
authority.

 - - -

Note: none of this contradicts anything you said.  In these circles, I
clearly qualify as a seasoned veteran, and it is exactly because I have
demonstrated enough judgement in these areas that people are willing to
give me more latitude.

- Sam Ruby


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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.
>
> Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
> =:o)

My guess then is that you have not read down the page far enough then.  No
demands required.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons ValidatorPackaging/Content)

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/8/02 5:17 AM, "Jeff Turner" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Yep, to a degree. Though without a simultaneous commitment to document
> the resulting forks/duplications and preferably cull the old code, then
> Jon's worst predictions will come true and we can kiss Jakarta goodbye
> now. 

That isn't my point. My point is that unless we do something now, it will
eventually die.

-jon


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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 1/8/02 3:13 AM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> so would collaboration on a web framework
> 
> Pete

This happened a long time ago (May 2000) on the PMC list:

When Craig originally proposed Struts, I -1'd it. He assured me that he
would be willing to collaborate together on Turbine and Struts (see the
Third point below), so I changed to a +1 based on that point alone (there is
another message where I made that clear).

Needless to say, Craig lied. So, don't give me anymore shit Peter. I'm tired
of it.

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: "Craig R. McClanahan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Tue, 30 May 2000 12:45:17 -0700
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PROPOSAL/VOTE] New Jakarta Subproject - "Struts"

Jon Stevens wrote:

> on 5/30/2000 11:19 AM, Craig R. McClanahan at [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> wrote:
>
> > Adding JSP-related stuff into Turbine is also a good idea; it's just not on
my
> > list of interesting things to work on.
> >
> > Craig
>
> Why not just add Struts into Turbine?
>

In my mind, there are several issues:

First, (somewhat paradoxically), is the fact that Turbine does so much for
you. It's comprehensive nature, like any good framework, makes it
correspondingingly tough to get your hands around.  Struts focuses on the
MVC architecture (slightly different approach than Action Events but the
same basic idea) plus the use of some JSP custom tags that interact with the
action classes in synergistic ways.  One of the ways to view Turbine is
"this is what you graduate to, once you understand what an MVC-architectured
web application looks like."

Second, some of the functionality supported by Turbine is done in ways that
differ from the emerging J2EE standards (for example, connection pools).
Granted, you got there first -- but some of the people who want to build
MVC-based web applications will be doing so with a J2EE server as the target
platform, so they will need to utilize the J2EE approach to things like this
where such an approach exists.  This is a philosophy issue for Turbine in
general -- do you want to blaze your own trail in how services are provided,
or do you want to become more J2EE-like?  (I don't have the personal energy
or passion needed to productively participate in this discussion -- that's
for the people who really care about Turbine to decide.)

Third, it is a little early to think that anyone (including myself) has a
clear handle on what the optimum integration of JSP into a full-featured
application framework like Turbine should look like.  One of the ways to
view Struts is "an incubator for exploring how to do Model 2 apps, using
JSPs and custom tags, in an optimum way."  Once the pattern is clear, it
will be lots easier to integrate the final result into Turbine, rather than
doing the integration over and over again as the patterns get refined.

Fourth, over the last year or so on JSP-INTEREST a considerable amount of
discussion has taken place about how to do Model-2 based app designs, using
the fundamental patterns that are implemented in Struts ("similar but
different" to corresponding things in Turbine).  Large numbers of people
have asked for a working example because they are new to the whole concept
of writing web apps (to say nothing of the implications of writing code that
works in a multithreaded server environment :-) -- I wish to meet that need
without making them have to learn too much at once.

Finally, longer term, I would not be at all surprised to see the two
approaches merged.  That just doesn't help meet a short term need to publish
code so that I can stop describing the pattern over and over again in words
on the mailing lists.  A hyperlink to a download is much more concise and
easier to type :-).

>
> -jon

Craig



-- End of Forwarded Message


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FW: email issues..

[Jon Scott Stevens]

Someone want to reply to this person directly?

-jon

-- Forwarded Message
From: "Eitan Suez" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Tue, 8 Jan 2002 08:43:09 -0600
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: email issues..

hi,

  i suspect that a recent attempt to block out spam
  on my mail server might have inadvertantly blocked
  out legitimate correspondence.

  if you have tried to reply to my last email,
  i did not receive it.  i believe the problem is fixed
  now.  i apologize for the inconvenience.

sincerely,
/ eitan suez

-Original Message-
From: Eitan Suez [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2001 10:55 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: publishing question..


Hi Jon,

  i visited the apache preFAQ at:
   http://www.apache.org/foundation/preFAQ.html#java

  which mentioned your email address as a human contact
  for non-technical questions concerning the apache java project.

  i have been working on a side project recently and am
  working on a site that i hope to publish in the near
  future.  the site is essentially an online reference
  of javadocs (similar to jakarta's own alexandria project).

  i am trying to find out the procedure for obtaining
  permission for publishing online the javadocs of existing
  apache java api's (such as oro, xerces, etc..).

  for a more precise idea of the site that i intend
  to publish, you may visit the following url:
   http://www.uptodata.com:8080/dbdoc/

  which is a temporary demonstration (password-protected)
  version of the site.  you may use these credentials to
  gain access:

   username: dbdoc
   password: demo

Sincerely,
  Eitan Suez
  programmer

-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Paul Hammant]

Sam,

>I have quietly stated several times that I would prefer that a Jakarta
>committer is a Jakarta committer.  Gaging by the response I got each time,
>I figured that then was not the time to push the issue.
>

There is some romance to extending the 'honor system' to the whole of 
Jakarta.  When we became committers we all treaded tentatively until 
we'd fully earned the respect of the seasoned veterans in the project in 
question.  An 'open' Jakarta would be nice, but even with a code of 
conduct , we'd inevitably get problems with 
incorrect/faulty/inappropriate commits.  How about for those that have 
been here for say two years?

Regards,

- Paul H


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Re: Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Sam Ruby]

Ted Husted wrote:
>
> As it stands, both are simply subprojects, and so a Commons committer is
> a Commons committer. Ditto for Taglibs.

It is also fair to point out that an Avalon committer is a committer to the
framework itself as well as to testlet, logkit, phoenix, cornerstone,
excalibur, and site.  So, one could draw a conclusion that anybody who
choses not to participate in Commons due to this structure would also chose
to withdraw from Avalon until this is corrected.

> In a way, the Commons and Taglibs subproject represent the other
> approach to Jakarta that people sometimes advocate, but so far a strong
> leader has not stepped up to fulfill the other half of that model.

I have quietly stated several times that I would prefer that a Jakarta
committer is a Jakarta committer.  Gaging by the response I got each time,
I figured that then was not the time to push the issue.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Ted Husted]

Jeff Turner wrote:
> Has that turned out to be a problem in practice? Say if you think so,
> and we can propose a modification to the charter: "The votes of those
> who haven't committed to a project are non-binding".

That would be a matter to be discussed on the Commons (and/or Tablibs)
lists., 

As it stands, both are simply subprojects, and so a Commons committer is
a Commons committer. Ditto for Taglibs. 

This was discussed at length when the Commons was founded. The consensus
was that since the Commons is trying to build codebases that can safely
interact with each other, then every Commons Comitter has a vested
interest in every Commons codebase. Another point was that the Commons
(and Taglibs) do not require a full community behind each component, and
so other Committers to the subproject need the karma/authority to step
up as needed.

Of course, you do still need to at least be a Committer to either
subproject to have a binding vote. The expectation is that the community
can handle the decision making in the same way it is handled on a larger
codebase, where Committers have binding votes over parts of the codebase
(packages or classes) that they may never have worked on personally. 

In a way, the Commons and Taglibs subproject represent the other
approach to Jakarta that people sometimes advocate, but so far a strong
leader has not stepped up to fulfill the other half of that model.

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Paulo Gaspar]

I was not demanding karma, just stating what I thought were obstacles.

Now I have some clues and it looks like I can help even without karma.
=:o)


Have fun,
Paulo

> -Original Message-
> From: Sam Ruby [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 11:54 AM
> 
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >
> > No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> > =:o/
> >
> > But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> > minutes for someone who does know.
> 
> karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma.
> 
> A good place to start is by going to "http://jakarta.apache.org";, and
> clicking on "About this site".
> 
> One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are
> literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "couple of minute" tasks 
> that come
> up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the 
> mailing lists,
> chasing down build breakages.
> 
> - Sam Ruby


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Paulo Gaspar]

Turbine and Avalon serve very distinct purposes, uses and users.

They just have a load of components trying to do the same thing.

Those could be shared and unified by placing them in the commons.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:13 PM
> 
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:04, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> > on 1/7/02 2:45 AM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> > >> Peter,
> > >>
> > >> So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
> > >
> > > Would there be a point to that?
> >
> > 
> > Exactly. Collaboration on a single logging tool would be a 
> terrible idea.
> > 
> 
> so would collaboration on a web framework
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> -
> Clarke's Third Law: "Any technology distinguishable from 
> magic is insufficiently advanced".
> -


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RE: crushed

[Paulo Gaspar]

> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good over there. 

Keep in mind (maybe not Peter but other readers of this post) that:

 1) Both groups always had common long term objectives but disagreed on the
way to achieve them or had different short term targets;

 2) If there had been a strict imposition from above, TC3.3 could have been
forked and a lot of that group could have gone elsewhere. Maybe this
would have permanently destroyed many synergies between the 2 groups 
that were always there (like with the connectors) and others that are
now evolving.

In the process, maybe some TC3.3 ideas proved their worth to some TC4
guys, which means increased cross pollination.

In this case strict control would have prevented several positive things 
from happening.


Similar situation with the Logging APIs, just that this time on separate
projects:

 1) Now both groups are quite a bit incompatible and forcing a merge would
destroy or send away one of the projects;

 2) Still, some projects prefer Log4J and others LogKit;

 3) Each of these Logging libraries seems to have its advantages and 
different strong and week spots. I am quite sure of this since at the
company I work for we have been using LogKit and Log4J for different
projects and I have been doing some logging work with both;

 4) The need of other projects (e.g.: commons components) to use both is
already putting some pressure into cross pollination. With time, it 
can happen that:
  - They will finally be able to merge;
  - One of them will learn all the advantages from the other and 
become dominant.
Either way, positive cross pollination is bound to happen.

This is why I would prefer to have both projects around instead of just
forcing them to merge. Lets put some peer pressure on them without 
destroying them.

Many general strict rules - like forcing to merge what seems to be the 
same thing - would be very destructive in this kind of situation. 

Common sense must be applied (like: "no, you can not fork Tomcat in 
another project") on a case by case basis.

And yes, I am aware of how uncommon common sense seems to be but I still
believe there is enough of it around here.


Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Peter Donald [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 12:12 PM
> 
> 
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> > I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> > on design:
> >
> >   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
> >   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
> >   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
> >   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
> >   not like we know that B is our final destination."
> >
> >-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398
> 
> Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much 
> prefer that all 
> Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are 
> talking about. 
> Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev 
> list and the 
> relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
> were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now 
> all is good 
> over there. 
> 
> Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side 
> "competing"? 
> Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the 
> end (though 
> maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> -
> First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
> -


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Re: Code conventions

[Endre Stølsvik]

On Fri, 4 Jan 2002, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

| My question is what are the consequences to forcing me to do #2 when #1 is
| perfectly acceptable throughout the professional world?

That syntax is so bleedin' ugly that I would suspect you were a novice not
knowing how to code.. ;)

PROFESSIONALS don't code using really, really ugly standards...

if (something)
{
Some block;
}

That's so ugly I have a hard time parsing it.

The _only_ way which is worse, is:

if (something)
{
Some block;
}

How is is possible to devise such a _fantastically_ ugly way of writing a
block? I have a hard time trying to _write_ that example there. It is so
utterly incredible. I have to go through it, parsing all such code char by
char, hitting the del key until a "{" appears after the if clause..!

;)

But then, on a serious note, the un-enclosed "block" like this

if (something)
this;
else
that;

is a bit dangerous. If you start, kind of mindlessy, to play around with
the code there, you all of a sudden insert a line extra after the that
part, thinking that it will execute only in the else part. Which, of
course, it won't, as it executes all the time..

It's only two little lines extra to include the {}'s, IF you of course
don't use "the really ugly standard", or worse, "the _fantastically_ ugly
standard", mentioned above.

if (something) {
this;
}
else {
that;
}

You could, if the this and that parts were very small, do this

if (something) { this; }
else { that; }

Or prettify that as

if (something) { this; }
else   { that; }

but now you're really moving along the edge..

:)



| "On your resume, I see that you were terminated for cause at Sun?"
|
| "Yes, I created too many classes with the opening brace on a separate
| line..."

  "WHAT?  You DARE coming in here, wasting my time, being an
opening-brace-on-separate-line-ASSHOLE? You get the f*** outta here!!"
 ---
  "GUARDS! - Could you please shove this thing into the incer...  Erhm, I
meant; show this ... person ... to the door?"


-- 
Mvh,
Endre


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Avalon, Commons, once again (Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content)

[Jeff Turner]

On Tue, Jan 08, 2002 at 09:29:18PM +1100, Peter Donald wrote:
...
> > To drive this point home, the subject line of this thread identifies
> > exactly one such set of duplication - between Turbine and Struts.  My
> > nagging lead Berin to propose moving the Avalon collections code into
> > commons, to which you responded, and I quote, "+/- 0".
> 
> I was hoping Jeff would do it as he seemed to be involved over there ;)

I saw the "+/- 0", and that Berin hadn't voted, and then thought of how
this would look to Commons people: as a code "dump"; abandoned by it's
authors, singlehandedly maintained by someone who might disappear at any
moment (from their POV; I'm not going anywhere;). Quite a big ask.

Though if you're okay with it (forking is a bit.. impolite:), I'll make
an attempt sometime late Feb (after holidays.. wheee).

> I have no time atm and no real motiviation to do it. Last time I was
> on the list I watched 3 things be proposed to commons - nobody even
> voted !!! There was no response whatsoever. Apparently Jeff has
> similar comments when he offered some of the avalon bits over there.

'twasn't Avalon code, but yes.. it pains me to think of all those XML
doctype decls flying around, unchanged.. ;)

The lack of project-wide sense of responsibility is the biggest problem
for Commons (and jakarta-taglibs, incidentally). It's something I aim to
help solve the old-fashioned way.

> * I no longer care about duplication and wheel reinvention (it will happen 
> anyway)

Yep, to a degree. Though without a simultaneous commitment to document
the resulting forks/duplications and preferably cull the old code, then
Jon's worst predictions will come true and we can kiss Jakarta goodbye
now. 

> > You can say all you want that you predicted how commons would turn out -
> > but lack of participation by people such as yourself have made such
> > predictions self fulfilling prophesies.
> 
> Heres what sucks about commons;
> 
> 1. People who are not associated with codebase nor ever contributed to it get 
> voting rights over codebase (who needs meritocracy anyways)

Has that turned out to be a problem in practice? Say if you think so,
and we can propose a modification to the charter: "The votes of those
who haven't committed to a project are non-binding".

> 2. Stable packages still have to go via sandbox and go through that whole 
> painful voting process (yet more non-contributors getting votes over codebase)
> 3. Im not a committer

You are. 'donaldp' listed for jakarta-commons and
jakarta-commons-sandbox.


--Jeff

> Change (1) and I will migrate the majority of excaalibur across in time (and 
> bitch and moan till (2)/(3) is changed). Change (1), (2) and (3) and I will 
> move stuff across tomorrow (though still take time to actually do releases).
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> 
> Pete
> 
> ---
>  "Remember, your body is a temple; however, it's also your 
>  dancehall and bowling alley"   -- Dharma Montgomery
> ---
> 
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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Ted Husted]

Danny Angus wrote:
> In my experience the best compromise is often to fragment the community,
> have lots of small groups where concensus will get the job done, and hang
> these together, but as this is pretty much what we have here already I find
> myself asking the question; what role do the PMC members see for the PMC? Is
> it simply a sub-project charged with developing communication/process
> between sub-projects, or do you want to exert control and leadership over
> the sub-projects?

As a PMC member, it's my feeling that while the PMC is responsible for
the "active management" of the Jakarta Project, we are not directly
resonsible for the active management of the subprojects. Them that make
the code make the decisions. 

As a PMC member, I try to encourage subprojects to work together, but
don't believe that this can be dictated without sacrificing the core
Apache mission:

"to ensure that the Apache projects continue to exist beyond the
participation of individual volunteers, to enable contributions of
intellectual property and funds on a sound basis, and to provide a
vehicle for limiting legal exposure while participating in open-source
software projects."

I believe that the best way to ensure that our Project and subprojects
continue to exist is to allow Meritocracy to work. And I believe that
Meritocracy is working here. 

I also recognize that there is a community within Jakarta that would
like to create a web of strongly-aligned subprojects. I can see why this
would be a good thing, but feel that pursuing ~only~ that goal means
that we will have fewer codebases with fewer committers. This would not
not serve the implicit Apache mission of promoting Meritocracy as a
popular way to manage open source projects.

I was quite sincere when I suggested that perhaps there is room for a
Tigris-style Apache project. As they say, the third time is the charm.


-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:04, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 1/7/02 2:45 AM, "Peter Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 21:33, Ceki Gulcu wrote:
> >> Peter,
> >>
> >> So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
> >
> > Would there be a point to that?
>
> 
> Exactly. Collaboration on a single logging tool would be a terrible idea.
> 

so would collaboration on a web framework

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

-
Clarke's Third Law: "Any technology distinguishable from 
magic is insufficiently advanced".
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Re: crushed

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 09:02, Jeff Turner wrote:
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' emails
> on design:
>
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
>
>-- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

Choice is fine and the more the better. However I would much prefer that all 
Xs were implemented by one project where X is whatever we are talking about. 
Look at TC3 vs TC4 - I subscribed about a year ago to their dev list and the 
relationships between the two groups were less than good and a few people 
were trying to make the division even greater .. apparently now all is good 
over there. 

Isn't that a better solution than having projects side by side "competing"? 
Sure it may be rocky for a bit but it is better for Apache in the end (though 
maybe less ego stroking for the individual developers).

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

-
First, we shape our tools, thereafter, they shape us.
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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:30, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >> I do what I can at the pace I am able.
> >
> >Which is quite impressive. Especially considering that you probably have
> >other duties and a live.
>
> Thanks.  And I do have both.
>
> http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/People/Tech_Board.html#sam
> http://www.zend.com/zend/hof/sam.php

Damn you get around! :)

-- 
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Pete

*--*
| "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want |
| to test a man's character, give him power."  |
|   -Abraham Lincoln   |
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Re: Not able to put classes in the class path

[Ted Husted]

The best place to post a question like this is the Tomcat USER list. 

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html



"[EMAIL PROTECTED]" wrote:
> 
> I have installed , tomcat 4.0.1, and i have added an context in the webapps..
> 
> but when i m trying to use the class files it is not picking up.., saying nopt 
>found...
> 
> i have put the class files in web-inf/classes
> 
> pls help me... what to do...
> 
> vikas
> 
> 
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .
> 
> --
> To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> For additional commands, e-mail: 

-- Ted Husted, Husted dot Com, Fairport NY USA.
-- Building Java web applications with Struts.
-- Tel +1 585 737-3463.
-- Web http://www.husted.com/struts/

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RE: Jakarta code search engine? (Re: crushed)

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
> No karma, no clue on how to change a Jakarta web page!
> =:o/
>
> But at least puting the URL on the list should be a couple of
> minutes for someone who does know.

karma follows clue, i.e., get a clue, and you get karma.

A good place to start is by going to "http://jakarta.apache.org";, and
clicking on "About this site".

One thing that a handful of us are painfully aware of... there are
literally hundreds, if not thousands, of "couple of minute" tasks that come
up a week - granting someone karma, moderating spam from the mailing lists,
chasing down build breakages.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Not able to put classes in the class path

[Peter Donald]

maybe you would be better served asking on the Tomcat-user mailing list

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 21:42, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I have installed , tomcat 4.0.1, and i have added an context in the
> webapps..
>
> but when i m trying to use the class files it is not picking up.., saying
> nopt found...
>
> i have put the class files in web-inf/classes
>
>
> pls help me... what to do...
>
> vikas
>
>
> 
> mail2web - Check your email from the web at
> http://mail2web.com/ .

-- 
Cheers,

Pete


My opinions may have changed, 
but not the fact that I am right


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Danny Angus]

 Jon wrote:

> My opinion is that there are to many peers in the process and that is what
> is breaking Jakarta. This wasn't a problem until now. We are starting to
> explode under our own ever growing weight.

I've been involved in other organisations that tried, from best intentions,
to have a non hierarchical structure.
In the end, as they grew, they almost always either:
a) fade away as people get bored with endless discussion of procedure and
leave,
or
b) develop leadership structures which can make snap decisions and represent
the community externally

the problem with "a" is self evident, in the case of Jakarta I suspect this
would (is?) manifesting itself as increasing insularity of the sub-projects.
After all the software is still wanted, its the community that most users
and developers see as a cost or by-product of free stuff, most of us don't
have all that much time to spare on community issues, we also have project
related stuff, jobs, family, beer etc.

the problem with "b" is that it is a "sell out", by appointing leaders we
sacrifice a much loved principle, and ordinary members start asking "who the
hell do they think they are, to speak on my behalf?"

In my experience the best compromise is often to fragment the community,
have lots of small groups where concensus will get the job done, and hang
these together, but as this is pretty much what we have here already I find
myself asking the question; what role do the PMC members see for the PMC? Is
it simply a sub-project charged with developing communication/process
between sub-projects, or do you want to exert control and leadership over
the sub-projects?


d.


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Not able to put classes in the class path

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I have installed , tomcat 4.0.1, and i have added an context in the webapps..

but when i m trying to use the class files it is not picking up.., saying nopt found...

i have put the class files in web-inf/classes


pls help me... what to do...

vikas



mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web.com/ .


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RE: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Sam Ruby]

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
>
>> I do what I can at the pace I am able.
>
>Which is quite impressive. Especially considering that you probably have
>other duties and a live.

Thanks.  And I do have both.

http://www.activestate.com/Corporate/People/Tech_Board.html#sam
http://www.zend.com/zend/hof/sam.php

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Jeff Turner wrote:
>
> Incidentally, the other statement Craig made in that email sums it all
> up for me:
>
>> The point from Jon that I *do* dismiss is his feeling that there
>> should be one and only one implementation of any particular
>> functionality -- "one size fits all" is a very rare phenomenon in my
>> experience, and having some choice is helpful.
>
> I would encourage people (esp. Jon, Ceki, Peter) to read Linus' email
> on design:
>
>   "The problem with "singlemindedness and strict control" (or "design")
>   is that it sure gets you from point A to point B in a much straighter
>   line, and with less expenditure of energy, but how the HELL are you
>   going to consistently know where you actually want to end up?  It's
>   not like we know that B is our final destination."
>
>   -- http://kerneltrap.org/article.php?sid=398

Excellent quotes.  It is my opinion that had this project been operating
with "singlemindedness and strict control" there never would be a
jakarta-velocity.  See:

   http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
>
> At the macro level you have to stand back a bit and let the
> secretary spend 30 cents too much on the paperclips.

+1

- Sam Ruby


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Re: crushed

[Sam Ruby]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> A good one that Sam worked on
> resolving fairly successfully is the one about Gump. Another issue which I
> see as a failure is the failure of projects to communicate with each other.

Thanks for the kind words.  If you take a moment and read the first
paragraph of text on , you will see that
it is my intent that what you see in Gump is my first installment towards
addressing the larger issue you describe in the second sentence described
above.  And there are a lot of people who can testify that it has sparked a
number of meaningful conversations between subprojects.

There have been numerous references in this mailing list to what form the
second installment is likely to take, many of which with URL references to
other discussions and mock ups.  If you care to participate or are merely
curious, take a look at
.

- Sam Ruby


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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 01:40, Sam Ruby wrote:
> Peter Donald wrote:
> > > > > So are you proposing to become a log4j committer?
> > > >
> > > > Would there be a point to that?
> > >
> > > It depends on whether and how you want to contribute.
> > > There still is a lot of work to do. Ceki
> >
> > And theres the rub.
>
> These one (or two) line answers don't do much to illuminate the issues.
> Let me try to rectify this:

actually thats not the point I was trying to get across (but an interesting 
one none the less). The point I was trying to get across was about Cekis 
attitude is precisely why Jakarta is the way it is and why it is going to 
only get "worse". 

He has no problem with me working for Log4j but the idea of actual 
collaboration is foreign. Now wouldn't it have been more interesting 
if he had said "lets get together and collaborate on Log4j v2" as you suggest 
or even just sharing the common infrstructure. However he didn't. He wants me 
to work on his project.

I wonder if Jon asked Craig to work on turbine whether he would accept? 
hm I wonder.

> Ceki, fundamental to Avalon is a design pattern that is referred to as
> "Inversion of Control".  This is fairly concisely described at the
> following web page:
> http://jakarta.apache.org/avalon/framework/inversion-of-control.html ,
> including an example which maps this concept into exactly this domain. 

IOC is not really the stop gap - Log4j could easily layered over the top of 
LogKit with very few issues. 

> Can
> you conceive of any possibility where you and Peter could work together on
> a "log4j v2.0" which conforms to what amounts to a set of restrictions on
> what a component can do?  Your answer above indicates that you have
> preconceived notions as to how you would limit Peter's freedom to
> participate.  Care to elaborate?

This is what I initially proposed to Ceki after it became obvious he was not 
willing to enable what we needed. This was a few months before he even came 
to Apache IIRC and I sent him at least 3 different proposals on how to 
integrate our work - though I believe he claims he only received 2. However 
at no stage did he even bother to acknowledge the proposals.

I would be very surprised if Ceki was willing to work with anyone else though 
I could be surprised .. I suspect the answer is "no" though ;)

> Peter, as you are well aware, I'm not overly thrilled with the way that
> Avalon has participated in commons either. 

I weren't aware we were participating ? ;)

> I have been unable to locate an
> adequate archive to point to, but recently I felt compelled recently
> (2001-12-26) to write the following words:
>
>There are quite a few projects under the Apache umbrella that I see as
>simultaneously unwilling to depend on others, and puzzled that more
>people are not willing to depend on them.

And if you recall I agreed with you in a reply ... or at least I seem to 
recall doing so ;)

> To drive this point home, the subject line of this thread identifies
> exactly one such set of duplication - between Turbine and Struts.  My
> nagging lead Berin to propose moving the Avalon collections code into
> commons, to which you responded, and I quote, "+/- 0".

I was hoping Jeff would do it as he seemed to be involved over there ;) I 
have no time atm and no real motiviation to do it. Last time I was on the 
list I watched 3 things be proposed to commons - nobody even voted !!! There 
was no response whatsoever. Apparently Jeff has similar comments when he 
offered some of the avalon bits over there.

I m not willing to do the work for some simple reasons 
* I don't like the management style (see below)
* I am lazy and don't like creating more work for myself (bet you knew that 
already though)
* I no longer care about duplication and wheel reinvention (it will happen 
anyway)

> You can say all you want that you predicted how commons would turn out -
> but lack of participation by people such as yourself have made such
> predictions self fulfilling prophesies.

Heres what sucks about commons;

1. People who are not associated with codebase nor ever contributed to it get 
voting rights over codebase (who needs meritocracy anyways)
2. Stable packages still have to go via sandbox and go through that whole 
painful voting process (yet more non-contributors getting votes over codebase)
3. Im not a committer

Change (1) and I will migrate the majority of excaalibur across in time (and 
bitch and moan till (2)/(3) is changed). Change (1), (2) and (3) and I will 
move stuff across tomorrow (though still take time to actually do releases).

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Pete

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Mon, 7 Jan 2002 20:55, Peter Donald wrote:
> The best way to describe it was something I think Craig said, something
> like - it doesn't much matter if there is an existing project with same
> aims, what matters is what committers are willing to commit to.

err maybe it was Ted ;)

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 mean you're an artist.
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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 12:36, Ceki Gülcü wrote:
> The JBoss guys are very smart. Scott Stark is extremely high caliber. Mark
> is no idiot either. Jboss is successful because it is so fucking good. From
> where I stand, the other appservers are just copying JBoss. Where do you
> think the MBean architecture in Weblogic 6.x came from?

What a laff! JBoss and Weblogics MBean use is completely and utterly 
different - JBoss uses JMX as a services architecture while Weblogic uses JMX 
as a management interface (you know - what it was designed for). 

The only way that BEA could possibly decide to use the standard 
management interface to manage its server is to see JMX used in a completely 
different manner - I am not sure how I missed that. It really is innovative 
how BEA decided to use the standard management API when it built its 
management interface. They had no idea that JMX was going to be integrated 
into J2EE at that stage - how could they.

> The problem with JBoss is that while they innovate BEA and IBM make all the
> dough. Such is the nature of opensource. Bloody fucking hell!

gotta love experts.

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Pete

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warriors go to battle first, and then seek to win." 
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Re: proposal for the jakarta startpage

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 15:29, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
> I also will say I haven't seen community crosstalk between XML and Jakarta,
> from the point of view as communities.  I know there are individuals who
> contribute greatly to both communities, and many of us here in Jakarta
> depend on XML projects.  But in the sense of us really having discussion of
> cross-community issues, the only one I can recall seeing is Stefano's
> request to disband PMCs because of his  issues with XML's.

You would be surprised. The majority of avalon developers are from XML land 
for one. Other projects have more or less communication - but thats not 
really different from inter-jakarta projects.

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Re: Commons Validator Packaging/Content

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 8 Jan 2002 03:03, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> In this email, all I hear you doing is pointing fingers.

It has nothing to do with that. I keep hearing you and other people say 
jakarta is broken. However as far as I can tell it is just talk whenever 
someone steps on your toes. You don't really care when other peoples toes get 
stepped on or when you do th stepping. So how can really expect anyone to 
care about your issues?

> As for me fixing Jakarta...I'm not sure I have enough people interested in
> helping fixing Jakarta. For example, Sam (our current leader) and others
> see nothing wrong with the current process. I'm also not certain I have
> enough energy to fight anymore...especially now that we have so many people
> willing to give their $0.00 opinion and not back that up with action.
>
> Honestly, I'm considering leaving entirely...or at least doing what I see
> everyone else doing...putting their head in a hole and just doing whatever
> the fuck they want to do. Not helpful, but like all of you, I don't have
> time either.
>
> The failure of Jakarta will be in the reality that no one has the time or
> energy to keep it running.

It really doesn't take much energy or effort. It takes a few minor 
compromises by people like yourself. Re: build.xml format again - it was your 
insistence that your way is right and screw everyone else who conflicted with 
you that led me to not bother pursuig it. If jakarta is failing it is because 
of people like you who are unwilling to compromise. 

When I see you change your attitude to match your words then I will be 
interested, till then I just see you whining when someone does to you, what 
you do to other projects.

Anyways personally I have watched this change occur. I would prefer that 
Jakarta conformed to your vision but I don't think it will. So instead of 
seeing it as a failure I prefer to see it a sa different version of success ;)

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
Murphy's law - "Anything that can go wrong, will." 
(Actually, this is Finagle's law, which in itself 
shows that Finagle was right.)
---


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