Re: Recasting Apache license

[Stefan Bodewig]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Andrus Adamchik <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I am going to recast standard Apache license to change the
> definitions of copyright holders to our project team. Now, the
> problem is that the project site, objectstyle.org , is not an
> officially registered foundation like Apache.

I think the original license - before the Apache Software Foundation
has been founded - said copyright by "The Apache Group", even though
there hasn't been a legal entity of that name.  Not sure wether this
has been legaly binding.

Isn't this waybackmachine.org site cool?  See www.apache.org from
1996: 

The license back then: 


Quite different from today's 8-)

Stefan

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Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[Morgan Delagrange]

Congratulations to the new PMC members!  We couldn't ask for a more
qualified group.  :)

- Morgan


- Original Message -
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 12:02 PM
Subject: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.


> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>
>
> Thanks for voting.
>
> We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462
> votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of
> 7x75=525 votes).
>
> None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found
> during the verification of the email sender/messages.
>
> The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):
>
>   Stefan Bodewig
>   Craig McClanahan
>   Diane Holt
>   Conor MacNeill
>   Geir Magnusson Jr.
>   Costin Monolache
>   Sam Ruby
>
> The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately
> and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF
> board meeting.
>
> Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please
> contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dw.
>
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
> Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
> Charset: noconv
>
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> OlvkCShXJBnsvN5glDkKhzPPLVDZMSuPEXRusT7B08hxoqyzLWhe9AXV2QPx3gUI
> nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1
> e1m8VWWhOds=
> =f3Ef
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
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>
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Re: Recasting Apache license

[Andrew C. Oliver]

We did this originally for POI and used Marc/me and the POI
contributers.  I just got each to agree that it could be transferred to
ASF before accepting donations.  (because POI was originally intended to
all be part of cocoon but that is a really long boring story)...  I'm
not sure of all of the legality but it is what every APL project on
sourceforge does.  ("why invent when you can steal" - paraphrase of M$)

-Andy

On Mon, 2002-02-25 at 17:41, Andrus Adamchik wrote:
> License question.
> 
> I am going to recast standard Apache license to change the definitions 
> of copyright holders to our project team. Now, the problem is that the 
> project site, objectstyle.org , is not an officially registered 
> foundation like Apache. Can it be a copyright holder? Is this legally 
> binding to anyone? I can't just put my name on it, since it was a 
> collaborative work of a group of developers.
> 
> Any suggestions how to handle situations like that?
> 
> 
> -- 
> ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-
> - Andrei (a.k.a. Andrus) Adamchik
> http://objectstyle.org
> list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
> personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org
> 
> 
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- fix java generics!
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 2/24/02 13:45, "Micael Padraig Og mac Grene" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
> amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?

Troll.

.:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson




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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[James Duncan Davidson]

On 2/24/02 01:28, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/

I admit that I have fear and loathing of the .NET moniker and all that
Microsoft is associating it with. But as far as the CLI and the class
libraries, well, quite frankly they don't suck. They're not great, I prefer
Java, but they don't suck.

Java will still be around for a long time no matter what happens. It's been
too important an event in software engineering to become dead. But the
licensing issues are going to have a non trivial effect on what happens.

> Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> avoid all this.

Heh. :) 

.:..:.:.:::.:::...:..:::.::.::...:::x180:james duncan davidson




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Recasting Apache license

[Andrus Adamchik]

License question.

I am going to recast standard Apache license to change the definitions 
of copyright holders to our project team. Now, the problem is that the 
project site, objectstyle.org , is not an officially registered 
foundation like Apache. Can it be a copyright holder? Is this legally 
binding to anyone? I can't just put my name on it, since it was a 
collaborative work of a group of developers.

Any suggestions how to handle situations like that?


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http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: Re: adding my project to jakarta

[Nathaniel G. Auvil]

thanks everyone for all the info.  i see i have a lot of work to do.  ;)

if anyone would like help out or give more advice, please do so.



--- acoliver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:13:50  1100 Peter Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
> 
> No offense to commons but if one can make ones project move up the list on
> sourceforge, I would venture to guess they'd get far more exposure then as a
> new package under commons.  There is a hump to travel up on sourceforge, but
> once you're over it your project gets in this reinforcing loop that causes
> it to stay on the front page.  Heck, after POI moved to jakarta it still
> managed to stay in the 96 percentile on Sourceforge and we've not released
> in like a month or so.  Just my opinion.  One does have to market an
> opensource project...there is no getting around it.  On sourceforge that
> means you have to get enough going to get in the top 50.  (both by getting
> traffic for the site and by committing enough to help raise the activity
> rating).  If you do that the rest will follow (in my experience).  Being in
> Commons won't help you in this respect as much as being front page on
> sourceforge I'd venture to guess.
> 
> --
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Re: Re: adding my project to jakarta

[acoliver]

>On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 07:13:50  1100 Peter Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.

No offense to commons but if one can make ones project move up the list on
sourceforge, I would venture to guess they'd get far more exposure then as a
new package under commons.  There is a hump to travel up on sourceforge, but
once you're over it your project gets in this reinforcing loop that causes
it to stay on the front page.  Heck, after POI moved to jakarta it still
managed to stay in the 96 percentile on Sourceforge and we've not released
in like a month or so.  Just my opinion.  One does have to market an
opensource project...there is no getting around it.  On sourceforge that
means you have to get enough going to get in the top 50.  (both by getting
traffic for the site and by committing enough to help raise the activity
rating).  If you do that the rest will follow (in my experience).  Being in
Commons won't help you in this respect as much as being front page on
sourceforge I'd venture to guess.

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Re: adding my project to jakarta

[Peter Donald]

On Tue, 26 Feb 2002 02:41, Nathaniel G. Auvil wrote:
> My name is Nathaniel Auvil and I run the jCharts project hosted at
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/jcharts/
>
> I was wondering if there would be any possibility of jCharts joining the
> Jakarta project.  I have been carrying all the weight of this project since
> its inception have trouble finding people who want to contribute to the
> project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the Jakarta project, help
> would be easier to find.

I would suggest you look into first becoming part of the commons project and 
going from there

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

---
The difference between genius, and stupidity? Genius has limits
---

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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

acoliver wrote:
> I think this would be less contentious then you think.  Basically if you add
> the *oh the power of those who do* principal then you'll probably get some
> list chatter but just say "are you volunteering" and they'll nearly
> immediately shutup. 
+1

  If you get two volunteers in the same area then its
> quite simple: you have an alternative which will make for a better
> distribution anyhow!  (You'll have the opportunity to develop better
> interfaces and coupling etc in the "distribution" or "platform")...  
> 
> 



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Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[robert burrell donkin]

On Monday, February 25, 2002, at 06:46 PM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:

> On 2/25/02 1:02 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>>
>>
>> Thanks for voting.
>
> Thanks Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem for coming up with such a good process and
> carrying it out...

definitely +1

a job well done :)

-robert


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Re: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[Geir Magnusson Jr.]

On 2/25/02 1:02 PM, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> 
> Thanks for voting.

Thanks Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem for coming up with such a good process and
carrying it out...

-- 
Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED]
System and Software Consulting


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RE: Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[Stephane Bailliez]

> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):
> 
>   Stefan Bodewig
>   Craig McClanahan
>   Diane Holt
>   Conor MacNeill
>   Geir Magnusson Jr.
>   Costin Monolache
>   Sam Ruby
> 
> The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately
> and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF
> board meeting.

Congrats to all of them.
The Ant team is well represented. Ant rules ! :-)


Stephane

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Re: Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[acoliver]

Darn...and I was saving that one for April 1 :-)

>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 09:43:05 -0800 Micael Padraig Og mac Grene
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Thanx, Andy.  There have been such rumours! ;-)
>
>At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
>>Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
>>big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
>>Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
>>group!
>>
>>-Andy
>>
>>On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
>> > Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
>> > amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
>> >
>> > At 10:28 AM 2/24/02  0100, you wrote:
>> > >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI
implementation, a
>> > > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
>> > > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
>> > > >
>> > > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying 
>> something
>> > > > like this about June of 2002.
>> > >
>> > >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
>> > >
>> > > > 
>> > > >
>> > > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes 
>> it's not
>> > > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
>> > >
>> > >Wise words, brother, wise words.
>> > >
>> > >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
>> > >
>> > >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day
to
>> > >avoid all this.
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
>> > >   able to give birth to a dancing star.
>> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >--
>> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:  

>> > >For additional commands, e-mail:

>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:  

>> > For additional commands, e-mail:

>> >
>>--
>>http://www.superlinksoftware.com
>>http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
>> format to java
>>http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
>> - fix java generics!
>>The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
>>vote.
>>-Ambassador Kosh
>>
>>
>>--
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>>For additional commands, e-mail: 
>
>
>
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Jakarta PMC 2002: Results of the Ballot.

[dirkx]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-


Thanks for voting.

We received 75 valid ballot forms (from 219 committers). There where 462
votes casted on nominees and 63 abstaining votes (i.e. with a total of
7x75=525 votes).

None of the received ballot forms where rejected. No issues where found
during the verification of the email sender/messages.

The 7 people with the largest number of votes (in alphabetical order):

  Stefan Bodewig
  Craig McClanahan
  Diane Holt
  Conor MacNeill
  Geir Magnusson Jr.
  Costin Monolache
  Sam Ruby

The above people thus compose the Jakarta PMC effective immediately
and will be confirmed as the Jakarta PMC for 2002 at the next ASF
board meeting.

Should you have issue with those elections or its procedure then please
contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your vote counters: Ben, Jim and Dirk-Willem.

Thanks,

Dw.

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: PGPfreeware 5.0i for non-commercial use
Comment: Made with pgp4pine 1.76
Charset: noconv

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nju20ZfQhn8a9OiLKbUEa8i4kP7bd8jXmRHmyTyYrC22ZE7ejvyQni4uvm98S5W1
e1m8VWWhOds=
=f3Ef
-END PGP SIGNATURE-



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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

Thanx, Andy.  There have been such rumours! ;-)

At 08:02 AM 2/25/02 -0500, you wrote:
>Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
>big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
>Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
>group!
>
>-Andy
>
>On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> > Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That
> > amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
> >
> > At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> > >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > > >
> > > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying 
> something
> > > > like this about June of 2002.
> > >
> > >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> > >
> > > > 
> > > >
> > > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes 
> it's not
> > > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> > >
> > >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> > >
> > >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> > >
> > >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> > >avoid all this.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> > >   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> > ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >--
> > >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> > For additional commands, e-mail: 
> >
>--
>http://www.superlinksoftware.com
>http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document
> format to java
>http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html
> - fix java generics!
>The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
>vote.
>-Ambassador Kosh
>
>
>--
>To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
>For additional commands, e-mail: 



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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Andrus Adamchik]

Tim Hyde wrote:
> Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the packaging
> and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
> pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
> Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but there
> again ...

I haven't suggested this myself since I had a feeling that the project 
must materialize first before anybody would vote +1 to make it Jakarta. 
There was also a "borg" concern. I think you address it well in the next 
paragraph.

> 
> There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
> toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
> difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
> Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
> 
> Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
> which Jakarta is missing ?

We are seeing now the main problem here: getting a consensus on what to 
include. For instance I would offer Cayenne ( 
http://objectstyle.org/cayenne/ ) as a data layer and o/r mapping tool 
for this project, someone else would offer Torque or Osage, etc.

Maybe this needs to be organized by use case. For example we have a use 
case : "writing a database aware web application". Say a bug tracking 
system. Volunteers working on the OED project make design proposals. One 
(or maybe 2 or 3 that are chosen) are used to implement such a system 
(or a prototype of such system to cut on time). Implementations are done 
in a way separating OED part from custom code so that. By evaluating 
custom code and what it takes to write and maintain it we may be coming 
  with a winner combination.

I mentioned bug tracking since I started one such system now to evaluate 
Cayenne. I will start doing it in such a "OED format" fashion to see 
what comes out.

Also Somebody donating existing end user projects for such a case study 
would speed up things a lot.


> Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
> papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
> of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
> that getting too altruistic ?-)

This is a good idea, but this is a different issue. I was thinking more 
of a package with documentation rather then a paper on how to write apps.


> - Tim




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http://objectstyle.org
list email: andrus-jk at objectstyle dot org
personal email: andrus at objectstyle dot org


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Re: adding my project to jakarta

[Stefan Bodewig]

Hi Nathaniel,

thank you for your offer, please read
.

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Nathaniel G. Auvil <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:

> I have been carrying all the weight of this project since its
> inception have trouble finding people who want to contribute to the
> project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the Jakarta project,
> help would be easier to find.

Note, that this is the best argument to vote NO on any proposal, no
matter how cool the project is, see the paragraph starting with
*Community* on the page above.

Stefan

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Re: adding my project to jakarta

[Matt Egyhazy]

fyi, i have noticed that jakarta will only take projects if they already
have an active community to avoid dead projects floating around.

matt
- Original Message -
From: "Nathaniel G. Auvil" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Monday, February 25, 2002 10:41 AM
Subject: adding my project to jakarta


> My name is Nathaniel Auvil and I run the jCharts project hosted at
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/jcharts/
>
> I was wondering if there would be any possibility of jCharts joining the
Jakarta project.  I have
> been carrying all the weight of this project since its inception have
trouble finding people who
> want to contribute to the project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the
Jakarta project, help
> would be easier to find.
>
> I have some big changes in store for the 0.4 release so check the project
out!
>
>
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
> http://sports.yahoo.com
>
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Re: adding my project to jakarta

[Michael A. Smith]

For information on proposing new Jakarta subprojects, please read:

http://jakarta.apache.org/site/newproject.html

regards,
michael

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002, Nathaniel G. Auvil wrote:
> My name is Nathaniel Auvil and I run the jCharts project hosted at
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/jcharts/
> 
> I was wondering if there would be any possibility of jCharts joining the Jakarta 
>project.  I have
> been carrying all the weight of this project since its inception have trouble 
>finding people who
> want to contribute to the project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the Jakarta 
>project, help
> would be easier to find.
> 
> I have some big changes in store for the 0.4 release so check the project out!
> 
> 
> __
> Do You Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
> http://sports.yahoo.com
> 
> --
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adding my project to jakarta

[Nathaniel G. Auvil]

My name is Nathaniel Auvil and I run the jCharts project hosted at
http://sourceforge.net/projects/jcharts/

I was wondering if there would be any possibility of jCharts joining the Jakarta 
project.  I have
been carrying all the weight of this project since its inception have trouble finding 
people who
want to contribute to the project.  My hopes are that if I could joing the Jakarta 
project, help
would be easier to find.

I have some big changes in store for the 0.4 release so check the project out!


__
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Yahoo! Sports - Coverage of the 2002 Olympic Games
http://sports.yahoo.com

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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Guillaume Rousse]

Ainsi parlait GOMEZ Henri :
> >> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were
> >
> >available,
> >the
> >
> >> number of independent consultants who could offer their
> >
> >support services
> >
> >> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example,
> >
> >eliminating that
> >
> >> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'.
> >
> >Well, we can
> >
> >> dream, anyway.
>
> That's one of the goal of jpackage project, providing
> a coherent set of java software packages for RPM enabled systems :
>
> http://www.jpackage.org
And Mandrake is planning inclusion of several of these packages into next 
release, now that the biggest work (harmonisation and cross-dependencies 
computing) is done.
-- 
Guillaume Rousse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
GPG key http://lis.snv.jussieu.fr/~rousse/gpgkey.html

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Re: Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[acoliver]

I think this would be less contentious then you think.  Basically if you add
the *oh the power of those who do* principal then you'll probably get some
list chatter but just say "are you volunteering" and they'll nearly
immediately shutup.  If you get two volunteers in the same area then its
quite simple: you have an alternative which will make for a better
distribution anyhow!  (You'll have the opportunity to develop better
interfaces and coupling etc in the "distribution" or "platform")...  

>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 15:32:12 - "Tim Hyde" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote.
>Moving slightly retrograde on the proposal (in case we missed something
...)
>
>I think my suggestion for 'alternative to J2EE' probably muddies the
waters.
>There are a lot of candidates for inclusion, and it would be a horrible
>mail-fest even to think about choosing them. One focus must be to make
>selecting and evaluation a tool a relatively lightweight task for the
>intending user - because if it's part of this platform, (s)he will *know*
it
>delivers.
>
>GJT comes to mind as something to be added to Leo's list of similar
efforts,
>and I expect the list would end up quite long.
>
>Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the
packaging
>and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
>pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
>Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but
there
>again ...
>
>There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
>toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
>difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
>Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.
>
>Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
>which Jakarta is missing ?
>
>Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
>papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
>of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
>that getting too altruistic ?-)
>
>- Tim
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Leo Simons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: 25 February 2002 11:00
>Subject: RE: The Complete Server Platform?
>
>
>>
>> 'kay. Summary:
>> (everyone, please correct and add to?)
>>
>> ---
>> SIMILAR EFFORTS
>> ---
>> Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
>> (requirments:
>>1) some kind of application platform
>>2) 100ava
>>3) open source)
>>
>> JBoss
>> Jahia
>> Enhydra
>> EAS
>> OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>>
>> Candidate Components For Inclusion
>> --
>> Jakarta:
>> Apache XML:
>> SourceForge:
>> Exolab:
>> (...)
>>
>> Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Tim Hyde]

Moving slightly retrograde on the proposal (in case we missed something ...)

I think my suggestion for 'alternative to J2EE' probably muddies the waters.
There are a lot of candidates for inclusion, and it would be a horrible
mail-fest even to think about choosing them. One focus must be to make
selecting and evaluation a tool a relatively lightweight task for the
intending user - because if it's part of this platform, (s)he will *know* it
delivers.

GJT comes to mind as something to be added to Leo's list of similar efforts,
and I expect the list would end up quite long.

Perhaps one thing that could be sensibly done is to strengthen the packaging
and market visibility of the things in the Jakarta family ? A great deal of
pre-selection has already been done, and there is already a project name -
Jakarta. 'Jakarta Development Kit' might not be the best proposal, but there
again ...

There needn't be any intention on 'family' grounds to exclude any other
toolset that was seen to be useful, but I can't quite get my head round the
difficulties of choosing candidates or the weakness of too much dilution.
Again, these are things that Jakarta has inherently worked through.

Does this make the proposal any more practical ? Are there serious areas
which Jakarta is missing ?

Perhaps one of the more useful things we might be able to add are design
papers un-biassed by the issues of market orthodoxies - even to the extent
of pointing out areas where the Jakarta technologies aren't the best. Or is
that getting too altruistic ?-)

- Tim

- Original Message -
From: Leo Simons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Jakarta General List <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: 25 February 2002 11:00
Subject: RE: The Complete Server Platform?


>
> 'kay. Summary:
> (everyone, please correct and add to?)
>
> ---
> SIMILAR EFFORTS
> ---
> Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
> (requirments:
>1) some kind of application platform
>2) 100% java
>3) open source)
>
> JBoss
> Jahia
> Enhydra
> EAS
> OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>
> Candidate Components For Inclusion
> --
> Jakarta:
> Apache XML:
> SourceForge:
> Exolab:
> (...)
>
> Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.





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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Yes!  Actually Apache is funded fully by Microsoft and its all been this
big farce..  We'll be close sourcing everything and handing it back to
Bill!  Don't worry, Soon we'll have Microsoft leadership for the whole
group!

-Andy

On Sun, 2002-02-24 at 16:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> Do you really thing that C# is going to be a competitor to Java?  That 
> amazes me.  Do you guys work for Microsoft?
> 
> At 10:28 AM 2/24/02 +0100, you wrote:
> >James Duncan Davidson wrote:
> > >
> > > On 2/5/02 08:24, "Stefano Mazzocchi" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > My position: give me a solid (possibly GPL-ed) CLI implementation, a
> > > > Java2C# porting tool, a BSD-licensed library of .NET classes and
> > > > java-cloning classes and I say let's kiss java good bye.
> > >
> > > Heh. You are ahead of schedule. I figured that you'd be saying something
> > > like this about June of 2002.
> >
> >uh, I take this as a compliment :)
> >
> > > 
> > >
> > > You're right you know. Stay flexible. Go with the flow. Sometimes it's not
> > > worth fighting all the battles at once.
> >
> >Wise words, brother, wise words.
> >
> >But my fear is that .NET might be even worse in the long run :/
> >
> >Gosh, I think I'll have to write my own programming platform one day to
> >avoid all this.
> >
> >--
> >Stefano Mazzocchi  One must still have chaos in oneself to be
> >   able to give birth to a dancing star.
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Friedrich Nietzsche
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >--
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> >For additional commands, e-mail: 
> 
> 
> 
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http://jakarta.apache.org - port of Excel/Word/OLE 2 Compound Document 
format to java
http://developer.java.sun.com/developer/bugParade/bugs/4487555.html 
- fix java generics!
The avalanche has already started. It is too late for the pebbles to
vote.
-Ambassador Kosh


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FW: BugZilla back up... :)

[Pier Fumagalli]

FYI...

-- Forwarded Message
> From: Pier Fumagalli <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Organization: Apache Software Foundation
> Date: Mon, 25 Feb 2002 12:08:51 +
> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: BugZilla back up... :)
> 
> Database restored, no data lost, everything is running fine...
> 
>   Pier
> 
-- End of Forwarded Message


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Re: The Complete Server Platform?

[Paul Hammant]

Leo,

>Jahia
>-
>goal:provide portal solution built on J2EE components.
>notes:   Paul, seems like a shrink-wrap commercial
> solution to me???
>
It is.  I was just pointing to it as some of the described 
plans/proposal were sounded like what it had done.

>Enhydra
>---
>license: Enhydra Public License (Mozilla-style)
>
No so, forked into proprietary I think.

Similar story to http://www.simpledb.org/ I think.

>EAS
>---
>goal:provide BSD-style license J2EE server.
>offers:  Servlets/JSP, EJB, Avalon
>license: BSD-Style
>url: http://eas.betaversion.org
>status:  alpha
>note:been dead a while now as backing company went
> bankrupt.
>
>
>OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION
>
>
I kinda have a problem with a project that pulls toegther other projects 
(as it's aim).  I would hope that we will one day be able to download 
blocks and SARs for server applications and just drop them into an apps/ 
dir of Phoenix.  Maye my issue is that I am unsure whether this is a 
project hoping to make RFC complaint servercomps in one 'product' or 
whether it is something else.

>Candidate Components For Inclusion
>--
>Jakarta:
>   Avalon
>   Struts
>   Turbine
>   Velocity
>   James
>   Jetspeed
>   Slide
>   Tomcat
>
Some of there are dependant on the Servlet API and thus are WebApps or 
tools used to build webapps.  Therefore they are no so big an issue as 
the contract for containment of a webapp is quite well defined (WAR 
file).  Resin, Orion, Tomcat(s) Jetty, Jo can all mount them.

>Apache XML:
>   Cocoon
>   SOAP
>
>SourceForge:
>   Enterprise Object Broker
>
Just to remind everyone this is a "transparent bean publisher" that some 
people might want to use instead of J2EE app servers.  We have three 
demos that work now.

>
>

>
>This e-mail is now officially more than long
>enough.
>
Then trim out the previous quoted stuff dude ;-)



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Re: Problems

[Gerhard Froehlich]

Aha and which? Wrong group, eh?

 ~Gerhard




   

Thomas.Masing@ 

bgs-ag.deTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

 cc:   

25.02.2002   Subject: Problems 

11:16  

Please respond 

to "Jakarta

General List"  

   

   




Hi,
the database is not available at the moment.

Best regards

Thomas


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RE: The Complete Server Platform?

[GOMEZ Henri]

>> One small extra: if a RedHat style toolkit distribution were 
>available,
>the
>> number of independent consultants who could offer their 
>support services
>> would exceed the number available to BEA, for example, 
>eliminating that
>> argument that 'I buy where I can depend on getting support'. 
>Well, we can
>> dream, anyway.

That's one of the goal of jpackage project, providing 
a coherent set of java software packages for RPM enabled systems :

http://www.jpackage.org

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Problems

[Thomas . Masing]

Hi,
the database is not available at the moment.

Best regards

Thomas


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RE: The Complete Server Platform?

[Leo Simons]

'kay. Summary:
(everyone, please correct and add to?)

---
SIMILAR EFFORTS
---
Here's a list of similar efforts that I know of...
(requirments:
   1) some kind of application platform
   2) 100% java
   3) open source)

JBoss
-
goal:provide open source J2EE server.
offers:  J2EE compliance, EJB, JMS, O/R-mapping, JNDI,
 JCA, JTA/JTS, JAAS, GUI Management (JMX),
 Servlet/JSP, Database, JDO
license: LGPL
url: http://www.jboss.org
status:  release
notes:   huge developer community

Jahia
-
goal:provide portal solution built on J2EE components.
offers:  JBoss, Database, Servlet/JSP, custom portal
 server (dunno what it does as the installer
 fails on my win2000 box)
license: Jahia License (commercial)
url: http://products.xo3.com:8080/
status:  (preliminary) release
notes:   Paul, seems like a shrink-wrap commercial
 solution to me???

Enhydra
---
goal:provide open source web application server.
offers:  Servlets/JSP, Template Engine (XMLC), Sessions,
 Database connectivity, MVC Framework
license: Enhydra Public License (Mozilla-style)
url: http://www.enhydra.org
status:  release
note:dying slowly it seems, as Lutris is pulling out

EAS
---
goal:provide BSD-style license J2EE server.
offers:  Servlets/JSP, EJB, Avalon
license: BSD-Style
url: http://eas.betaversion.org
status:  alpha
note:been dead a while now as backing company went
 bankrupt.


OPEN ENTERPRISE DISTRIBUTION

goal:provide an open source alternative architecture to
 J2EE.
offers:  Database, Pooling, Logging, Management, etc.
 (to be defined)
license: Apache-style
url: none (will be sourceforge)
status:  conceptual

Candidate Components For Inclusion
--
Jakarta:
Avalon
Struts
Turbine
Velocity
James
Jetspeed
Slide
Tomcat

Apache XML:
Cocoon
SOAP

SourceForge:
Enterprise Object Broker
Simper (soon, anyway)
HSQL
Ozone
JBoss
Maverick
Jetty
Niggle
OpenCMS
Pi
(...the list goes on and on...)

Exolab:
OpenEJB
OpenJMS
OpenORB
Castor
Tyrex

(...)

Clearly, there are loads. We need some criteria.

Architecture

One thing I think OEB needs is formalization of
the patterns of choice in the form of core
interfaces. The two projects I know that deal
with that are Avalon and Turbine.

Another thing it needs is a definition of how it
"glues". Options are JNDI, SOAP, JMX, Avalon
Service framework, Turbine Services Framework,
CORBA...and I'm sure I'm missing a few.

Of those, of course _I_ am in favor of the
setup Avalon uses, but hey ;)

This e-mail is now officially more than long
enough.

cheers,

- Leo

-Oorspronkelijk bericht-
Van: Andrus Adamchik [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Verzonden: maandag 25 februari 2002 1:27
Aan: Jakarta General List
Onderwerp: Re: The Complete Server Platform?




Tim Hyde wrote:
> Andrus,
>
> I'm 100% behind the idea of the complete platform, but I'm worried that
your
> proposal talks about 'Web Applications'.
>
> I believe that what's needed is an alternative to the very idea that J2EE
> (or even J2SE) is *the* definitive collection of java libraries, and that
> the project should offering a number of sensible alternatives for use in
any
> architecture.

We still will depend on certain commercial JVM's (Sun or IBM), right?



> Database access, Logging, and Development Process are three things that
> you've specifically mentioned that aren't particularly Web or Server
> oriented.
>
> Web Applications, or Server Applications, are more part of today's
'fashion'
> than inherent categories of how you make a computing solution, and we can
> expect things to move on during the lifetime of Java. Well, we can hope,
> anyway. :-)

You are right. I was mentioning Web applications just cause I wanted to
limit initial scope to something sane. And I guess because I am myself
is a better expert in this area then in any other. This would've helped
to concentrate on a certain solution-based approach from the beginning.
But I agree we can widen the scope as long as we can outline the
problems being solved.

>
> So, if possible, why not talk about a 'development and deployment platform
> for Java applications' - and then start off by assembling both the
> underlying 'component' toolsets and a number of combination-examples, such
> as the jGuru one Ted mentioned, and whatever else might emerge during the
> project as perhaps 'miniature live examples'.

+1, like I said above, I am for it if we define use cases we are going
after.


> Naturally, server applications are the primary interest point initially,
but
> it would be nice to think that the collection of tools being provided for
> dist

Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Peter Donald]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 21:45, Micael Padraig Og mac Grene wrote:
> Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code
> than Sun Microsystems?  

err ... you trolling ? guess so.

> I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with
> their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more
> restrictive. 

actually the C# language is less restrictive. The PMC head of jakarta 
actually sits as a spec lead (or chair or whatever the ECMA calls it) on one 
of the standardization groups.

Compare this to the Java language which can not be reimplemented outside of 
sun legally. Fun eh?

Of course no need to lets facts get in the way pof a good religion.

> Why don't we get a dialogue going on
> why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem

a few people have tried that and look where it got. 

> rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter,
> if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.

intelligent argument. I think you left out phrases like "Microshaft" or 
"Micro$loth" or whatever it is you kiddies use these days. 

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Micael Padraig Og mac Grene]

Let's see: Microsoft is going to be a better deal in terms of open code 
than Sun Microsystems?  Hmmm?  Guess I must have missed the banana boat on 
this one.

I guess since I am fed up because Sun won't let me have free rein with 
their code, I should ballyhoo C#, which will be 100 times more 
restrictive.  Yah, that's the ticket.  Why don't we get a dialogue going on 
why Sun is doing what it is doing and work towards solving the problem 
rather than supporting Mickey Mouse who would trade us for a pad of butter, 
if it were not for Sun's competition looming in the background.

Micael

At 07:12 PM 2/25/02 +1100, you wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
> > It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
> > because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
> > seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
> > thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???
>
>"mickysoft" ? Hmmm ...
>
>The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the
>steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot
>to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.
>
>Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an
>open platform but wont be because it is not.
>
> > Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
> > no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
> > is a bit premature don't you think?
>
>Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both
>already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of
>other parts of these projects aswell.  There is also external ports of other
>projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I
>am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.
>
>I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements
>in the core framework that it will be "good enough" for almost all my needs.
>However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other
>opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would
>definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also
>do so.
>
>Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really
>depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.
>
>--
>Cheers,
>
>Pete
>
>Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
> -- Voltaire
>
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Re: Java is dead... but it could still be saved!

[Peter Donald]

On Mon, 25 Feb 2002 18:29, Colin Chalmers wrote:
> It's good to know your enemy but lets not talk Java into it's grave. Just
> because MickySoft comes out with something to compete against Java people
> seem to be taking fright and already talking about ditching Java for C#
> thereby playing into Mickys hand. Has Micky got so powerful???

"mickysoft" ? Hmmm ... 

The Java people are not running scared - however many are fed up with the 
steward of Java. There is plenty of people who would be willing to do a lot 
to make java a betweer platform but due to licensing restraints can not.

Theres plenty of crap features in java that could be easily fixed given an 
open platform but wont be because it is not.

> Let's look on it positively, a bit of competition for Java/Sun is perhaps
> no bad thing in itself :-) But already to be thinking about swinging to C#
> is a bit premature don't you think?

Whos thinking? Of the two Apache projects that I am most involved with - both 
already have C# ports of parts or all of them. There is ongoing porting of 
other parts of these projects aswell.  There is also external ports of other 
projects I rely upon (namely a net port of junit). When the time comes when I 
am forced to switch then it will be easy enough to do.

I don't plan to ditch java just yet. JDK1.5 will contain enough improvements 
in the core framework that it will be "good enough" for almost all my needs. 
However thats a long way off - if the mono team or one of the other 
opensource C# clones were to get hald as good as java is now then I would 
definetly consider switchin - and I know a lot of other people who would also 
do so.

Its about putting control back into the developers hands and all really 
depends on the way Sun handles it from here on in.

-- 
Cheers,

Pete

Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd.
-- Voltaire

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