Re: Apache reorganization.... make all XML projects top level... future ofXML.apache.org unknown

[dion]

"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 25/10/2002 
11:04:45 PM:

> >
> >
> >> u seen eyebrowse:
> >>
> >> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ViewLists
> >>
> >> It holds all the xml lists. It has a format for a list like this:
> >> http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=47 
though.
> >
> No it doesn't.  It says 0 for POI there have certainly been more 
> than 0 posts
> :-(

So let's get it fixed
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers




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Adding Lists to EyeBrowse - how?

[dion]

EyeBrowse is a great facility - how do we add other Apache mailing lists 
to it?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work:  http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Andrew C. Oliver]

But there should be something adequate in addition to JBoss.

Steve Downey wrote:


LGPL probably isn't bad enough to prevent people from using it. So the drive 
to create a BSD or Apache-style implementation hasn't exceeded the effort.

On Friday 25 October 2002 08:16 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
 

But JBoss is.  JBoss support EJB but has some features as a general app
server that are pretty sweet.

And as much as I wish we had something as good Jingoism asidewe
simply don't.

But I don't think JBoss is crying over not being an apache project at
the moment ;-)

I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like
EOB (eob.sourceforge.net) but had the high performance app server
facillies like JBoss.

Flame away!

-Andy

Paulo Gaspar wrote:
   

Jon's predictions never became truth...
...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

 

-Original Message-
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article

...

Some history info:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=
2


--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   - verba volant, scripta manent -
  (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
   

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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Andrew C. Oliver]

Jon Scott Stevens wrote:


on 2002/10/25 5:16 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

 

I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like
EOB (eob.sourceforge.net)
   


Stuff like this reminds me of Velocity vs. JSP argument.
 

Agreed.  Velocity looks better than JSP.  

People realize that EJB sucks ass, so they develop something that is simple


agreed


to use and implement and makes some real sense...while the whole time, we
have Sun pushing their J2EE crap down our throats.
 

agreed


Maybe once Sun's stock price dips below 1.0 will they wake up...
 

I never had you for an idealest.  What I think they'll do is start 
trying to sell the JDK, lock every thing down grasping for some business 
model...any busines model.then sink slowly into the abyss taking 
java with them...but I think Sun today is the IBM of the 80s brought 
foward into the future given a jewel they have no idea what to do with 
(still).

Sun still has two pistols pointed at each foot daring folks to make them 
pull the trigger..  With the JCA issue they took some bullets out...  

However Jon, we still don't have something with the really "balls" 
behind it.  (excuse the crudity). . I mean something that is documented 
sufficiently, has the performance tools (transaction support, 
hi-performance pooling including connections and objects) behind it and 
has a non-sucky interface like EOB.  EJB sucks, but app servers are 
necessary for a good many people.  We've got bits and pieces of app 
servers...but we don't actually have one.

I plan on riding Paul's a** to finish getting an initial code base 
together and I'll help with more docs so that he can attract enough 
community.  Having this thing here might drive some sort of cohesive app 
server development instead of the little fiefdoms (so far as app server 
stuff goes) we have today.  Otherwise I think we'll kinda forefit our 
b*tching rights for not coming up with something better.  As much as I 
like Marc, I hope we prove you right some day!

-Andy

-jon

 




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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Steve Downey]

On Friday 25 October 2002 08:30 pm, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002/10/25 5:16 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like
> > EOB (eob.sourceforge.net)
>
> Stuff like this reminds me of Velocity vs. JSP argument.
>
> People realize that EJB sucks ass, so they develop something that is simple
> to use and implement and makes some real sense...while the whole time, we
> have Sun pushing their J2EE crap down our throats.
>

Sun has a lot of trouble backing away from the 1.0 decisions they make, even 
when they turn out to be wrong. MSFT does a bit better by renaming the 
technology and walking away from the old one. c.v. DCOM -> MTS -> .NET

Still, container based declarative transactional components are a nice idea. 
Writing data non-transactionally will eventually get you into trouble. 
Reading isn't the same problem. And being able to join many components into a 
single transaction without advance planning make a lot of deep problems 
rather simple.

But the notion that a database row is a good remote object, even without the 
overhead of transactionality, is just BAD.

> Maybe once Sun's stock price dips below 1.0 will they wake up...
>

Nah, I'm sure CA would acquire it then, and then there'd be boardroom pressure 
to use it as the solution to everything.



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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Steve Downey]

LGPL probably isn't bad enough to prevent people from using it. So the drive 
to create a BSD or Apache-style implementation hasn't exceeded the effort.

On Friday 25 October 2002 08:16 pm, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> But JBoss is.  JBoss support EJB but has some features as a general app
> server that are pretty sweet.
>
> And as much as I wish we had something as good Jingoism asidewe
> simply don't.
>
> But I don't think JBoss is crying over not being an apache project at
> the moment ;-)
>
> I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like
> EOB (eob.sourceforge.net) but had the high performance app server
> facillies like JBoss.
>
> Flame away!
>
> -Andy
>
> Paulo Gaspar wrote:
> >Jon's predictions never became truth...
> >...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough!
> >=;o)
> >
> >Have fun,
> >Paulo Gaspar
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
> >>Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM
> >>To: Jakarta General List
> >>Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article
> >>
> >>...
> >>
> >>Some history info:
> >>http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=
> >>2
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> - verba volant, scripta manent -
> >>(discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
> >
> >--
> >To unsubscribe, e-mail:   
> >For additional commands, e-mail: 


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Jon Scott Stevens]

on 2002/10/25 5:16 PM, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like
> EOB (eob.sourceforge.net)

Stuff like this reminds me of Velocity vs. JSP argument.

People realize that EJB sucks ass, so they develop something that is simple
to use and implement and makes some real sense...while the whole time, we
have Sun pushing their J2EE crap down our throats.

Maybe once Sun's stock price dips below 1.0 will they wake up...

-jon

-- 
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/


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Re: I'm a leader of jakarta.apache-korea.org

[Andrew C. Oliver]

P.S. by the way, Andy, how do you think to add to the
"translation" links to Jakarta-Seoul POI project?
 

sure... though I wish that they'd translate more than the front page.
If no one submits a patch/does it in the next couple of days I'll handle 
it in my next
productive cycle.  

-Andy

--

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:51:37 +0900 (KST)
(Subject: I'm a leader of jakarta.apache-korea.org)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 

Hi.
Above all, we appreciate your hard work in jakarta project.
Due to your efforts, we can develop programs in easier, more scalable,
more stable way.

I tried to sent you this mail  two days ago, but I heard your address 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
The mail has returned. Instead I sent the mail to 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Have you ever heard of Jakarta translation site in Korea?
At jakarta.apache-korea.org, we about 30 people are working on
translation project,that is to say, Jakarta-Seoul project.
Java developers in Korea have more interests in jakarta project than all
the time.
But many of them have troulble directly reading original English site.
Most problems we are encounterd during development can be solved only if
we search for site menuals.
So we decided to provide a basis of understanding jakarta project,
and now we are translationg site documents into Korean.
At the end of this year, we plan to finish all documents in Tomcat 4.X,
Struts 1.0.2, POI, JMeter etc.

But our project's works not only have translating, but also helping more
people contributing jakarta project
,further more, open source projects.
In poor surroundings of Korea, open source projects have been not arised
well.
Translating and understanding more, we will first help jakarta project
in various ways.
Most of all, we shall produce many contributors to jakarta project.
Personlly I found many subprojects are very good but lack sample
programs, so real use of the subprojects
seems to be far. We also can contribute more good samples to the
projects.

We want many people directly searching informations by their convenient
languages.
Do you have any intention that have official sites in other
languages
for the purpose of activating the project around the world more?
If you have that idea, I think out project site is adequate for that.
We are all working with pure purpose without any support from commercial
corporation and without any reward.
And we will grow up according to jakarta project parallelly, helping
jakarta project prosper.
How do you think my suggession?

Thanks for reading.

Suribada's Javaworld
http://www.suribada.com

Jakarta-Seoul Project
http://jakarta.apache-korea.org
   




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Tetsuya KitahataPresident of Terra International, Inc.
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  URL : http://www.terra-intl.com/
(BASP21 Pro)   http://www.terra-intl.com/basp21/
(Jakarta no mori)  http://www.terra-intl.com/jakarta/


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Andrew C. Oliver]

But JBoss is.  JBoss support EJB but has some features as a general app 
server that are pretty sweet.

And as much as I wish we had something as good Jingoism asidewe 
simply don't.

But I don't think JBoss is crying over not being an apache project at 
the moment ;-)

I wish we did have something that supported a non-crappy interface like 
EOB (eob.sourceforge.net) but had the high performance app server 
facillies like JBoss.

Flame away!

-Andy

Paulo Gaspar wrote:

Jon's predictions never became truth...
...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

 

-Original Message-
From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article

...

Some history info:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=2


--
Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
   



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Re: I'm a leader of jakarta.apache-korea.org

[Tetsuya Kitahata]

Hi,


I think the translations in Korean will encourage
all the developers and users all over the world!

I'd known the Jakarta-Korean (I mean, Jakarta-Seoul Project) project
by the post from Mr. Henri @ Sat, 14 Sep 2002 01:17:04 -0400 (EDT)
on this ML. (Grep to the archives on this ML, and you can find them)

And, ... this will promote the "sourceforge -> Jakarta
or XML.apache, etc" , for example, Tapestry, JBoss
and so on.
"Internationalization" (aka i18n) is the best way for all of
the open-source projects to go through for the growth, (one of
the step for growth) I believe.

Best Regards,
Tetsuya.

P.S. by the way, Andy, how do you think to add to the
"translation" links to Jakarta-Seoul POI project?

--

On Wed, 23 Oct 2002 10:51:37 +0900 (KST)
(Subject: I'm a leader of jakarta.apache-korea.org)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Hi.
> Above all, we appreciate your hard work in jakarta project.
> Due to your efforts, we can develop programs in easier, more scalable,
> more stable way.
> 
> I tried to sent you this mail  two days ago, but I heard your address 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> The mail has returned. Instead I sent the mail to 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Have you ever heard of Jakarta translation site in Korea?
> At jakarta.apache-korea.org, we about 30 people are working on
> translation project,that is to say, Jakarta-Seoul project.
> Java developers in Korea have more interests in jakarta project than all
> the time.
> But many of them have troulble directly reading original English site.
> Most problems we are encounterd during development can be solved only if
> we search for site menuals.
> So we decided to provide a basis of understanding jakarta project,
> and now we are translationg site documents into Korean.
> At the end of this year, we plan to finish all documents in Tomcat 4.X,
> Struts 1.0.2, POI, JMeter etc.
> 
> But our project's works not only have translating, but also helping more
> people contributing jakarta project
> ,further more, open source projects.
> In poor surroundings of Korea, open source projects have been not arised
> well.
> Translating and understanding more, we will first help jakarta project
> in various ways.
> Most of all, we shall produce many contributors to jakarta project.
> Personlly I found many subprojects are very good but lack sample
> programs, so real use of the subprojects
> seems to be far. We also can contribute more good samples to the
> projects.
> 
> We want many people directly searching informations by their convenient
> languages.
> Do you have any intention that have official sites in other
> languages
> for the purpose of activating the project around the world more?
> If you have that idea, I think out project site is adequate for that.
> We are all working with pure purpose without any support from commercial
> corporation and without any reward.
> And we will grow up according to jakarta project parallelly, helping
> jakarta project prosper.
> How do you think my suggession?
> 
> Thanks for reading.
> 
> Suribada's Javaworld
> http://www.suribada.com
> 
> Jakarta-Seoul Project
> http://jakarta.apache-korea.org



--
Tetsuya KitahataPresident of Terra International, Inc.
E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]  URL : http://www.terra-intl.com/
(BASP21 Pro)   http://www.terra-intl.com/basp21/
(Jakarta no mori)  http://www.terra-intl.com/jakarta/


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RE: Linux Magazine article

[Paulo Gaspar]

Jon's predictions never became truth...
...probably because J2EE is not interesting enough!
=;o)

Have fun,
Paulo Gaspar

> -Original Message-
> From: Nicola Ken Barozzi [mailto:nicolaken@;apache.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 9:09 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article
>
>...
>
> Some history info:
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=2
>
>
> --
> Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  - verba volant, scripta manent -
> (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 25/10/02 19:14, "Scott Sanders" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?
> 
> No, Jboss was not rejected from Jakarta.  IIRC, they wanted to join and
> jakarta said 'can we digest what we have first?', and jboss said, 'no
> thanks', and then switched to LGPL.
> 
> Or something like that :)

True, roughly, as well... The first time someone told about a merger it was
probably 2 weeks after Jakarta was born, and at that time (and as always),
we were covered in , between Sun not coming up with the license
agreements for Tomcat, Jserv still pumping hard but going down as being at
the end of the line...

Those were fun times! :-)

Pier (one of the old ladies, but I don't like tea!)


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Pier Fumagalli]

On 25/10/02 7:17, "James Mitchell" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Is it true that Marc had asked to move JBoss over and that it was not
> accepted?

Question floats around from time to time... It always ends up in someone
being flamed badly and nothing happening...

The "wishy-washy" relationship started when, IIRC, when back in the days
(the first time we were told to "join efforts") he called us something like
"old ladies drinking tea", or some stuff like that...

> I guess I was not around during that time (if it ever was).  I had sensed
> (from monitoring the Jboss-users and dev lists early this year) that there
> was a bit of ill sentiment towards the 'Jakarta Love Train' ;)
> 
> I had heard rumors, but never knew what to make of it until I asked him
> directly myself at a JBoss presentation at the local JUG meeting a few
> months back, and his response was something like"nothing but a bunch of
> Sun guys there", but I couldn't make out exactly what he said.
> 
> Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?

It's not true... I believe that the ASF doesn't want to have JBoss on its
list of projects, and JBoss doesn't want to move along and join the ASF...
>From time to time, someone happening to be in both communities at the same
time, thinks it might be a good idea to push for it, and does so...

But at the end, I believe that both communities are really divided and can't
be brought together... Both communities grew from the same seed, Java and
Open Source, but whilst one (Apache) has always been fond of its BSD roots
and moves along the lines, the Jboss one is actually more tied to GPL and
another vision of open source...

I think they both coexist happily in the world, but at the same time I don't
think any one of those should loose its credos to embrace the other
community way of doing things...

And plus, we're more polite, we don't call them "nothing but a bunch of
Fleury's adepts there", or "young kids drinking cocoa" :-)

Pier



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RE: Linux Magazine article

[Scott Sanders]

> Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?

No, Jboss was not rejected from Jakarta.  IIRC, they wanted to join and
jakarta said 'can we digest what we have first?', and jboss said, 'no
thanks', and then switched to LGPL.  

Or something like that :)

Scott

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RE: Linux Magazine article

[James Mitchell]

I'd like to see that.

James Mitchell
Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not
sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


> -Original Message-
> From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:andy@;superlinksoftware.com]
> Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 8:55 AM
> To: Jakarta General List
> Subject: Re: Linux Magazine article
>
>
> I just wanted to say.  I like Marc.  He's fun :-)
> (but then again I like Jon too for many of the same reasons though I've
> not met him in person so my judgement may be suspect ;-) )
>
> BTW if we can get our act together and I can get the guts together to
> ask my boss for time off just after starting, I could try and bring VCDs
> of Marc vs IBM vs BEA vs Oracle (I couldn't find the right person to ask
> from sun until it was too late) to the apachecon.  Let me know who wants
> them and I'll try.
>
> -Andy
>
> James Mitchell wrote:
>
> >Is it true that Marc had asked to move JBoss over and that it was not
> >accepted?
> >
> >I guess I was not around during that time (if it ever was).  I had sensed
> >(from monitoring the Jboss-users and dev lists early this year)
> that there
> >was a bit of ill sentiment towards the 'Jakarta Love Train' ;)
> >
> >I had heard rumors, but never knew what to make of it until I asked him
> >directly myself at a JBoss presentation at the local JUG meeting a few
> >months back, and his response was something like"nothing but
> a bunch of
> >Sun guys there", but I couldn't make out exactly what he said.
> >
> >Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?
> >
> >
> >James Mitchell
> >Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
> >http://www.open-tools.org
> >
> >"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity,
> and I'm not
> >sure about the former."
> >- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >>-Original Message-
> >>From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@;generationjava.com]
> >>Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:15 AM
> >>To: Jakarta General List
> >>Subject: Linux Magazine article
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>Linux Magazine's backpage article is a little thing on Java and Linux
> >>together etc. [Steve J. Vaughan-Nichols]. Apache Software Foundation's
> >>Jakarta project gets a good mention, however he seems to
> ascribe JBoss as
> >>being a Jakarta project :) Which is a shame that maybe
> Jakarta's brand is
> >>being a bit too overpowering sometimes.
> >>
> >>Tomcat, Ant and POI also get mentions.
> >>
> >>My favourite quote:
> >>
> >>"I know: to many of you Java is this wishy-washy language that's way too
> >>wordy and structured." :)
> >>
> >>Thought it was interest,
> >>
> >>Hen
> >>
> >>
> >>--
> >>To unsubscribe, e-mail:
> 
> >>For additional commands, e-mail:
> 
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >--
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> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
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Re: Apache reorganization.... make all XML projects top level...future of XML.apache.org unknown

[Andrew C. Oliver]

u seen eyebrowse:

http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/ViewLists

It holds all the xml lists. It has a format for a list like this:
http://nagoya.apache.org/eyebrowse/SummarizeList?listId=47 though.



No it doesn't.  It says 0 for POI there have certainly been more 
than 0 posts
:-(



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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Andrew C. Oliver]

I just wanted to say.  I like Marc.  He's fun :-)
(but then again I like Jon too for many of the same reasons though I've 
not met him in person so my judgement may be suspect ;-) )

BTW if we can get our act together and I can get the guts together to 
ask my boss for time off just after starting, I could try and bring VCDs 
of Marc vs IBM vs BEA vs Oracle (I couldn't find the right person to ask 
from sun until it was too late) to the apachecon.  Let me know who wants 
them and I'll try.

-Andy

James Mitchell wrote:

Is it true that Marc had asked to move JBoss over and that it was not
accepted?

I guess I was not around during that time (if it ever was).  I had sensed
(from monitoring the Jboss-users and dev lists early this year) that there
was a bit of ill sentiment towards the 'Jakarta Love Train' ;)

I had heard rumors, but never knew what to make of it until I asked him
directly myself at a JBoss presentation at the local JUG meeting a few
months back, and his response was something like"nothing but a bunch of
Sun guys there", but I couldn't make out exactly what he said.

Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?


James Mitchell
Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist
http://www.open-tools.org

"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not
sure about the former."
- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)


 

-Original Message-
From: Henri Yandell [mailto:bayard@;generationjava.com]
Sent: Friday, October 25, 2002 1:15 AM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Linux Magazine article



Linux Magazine's backpage article is a little thing on Java and Linux
together etc. [Steve J. Vaughan-Nichols]. Apache Software Foundation's
Jakarta project gets a good mention, however he seems to ascribe JBoss as
being a Jakarta project :) Which is a shame that maybe Jakarta's brand is
being a bit too overpowering sometimes.

Tomcat, Ant and POI also get mentions.

My favourite quote:

"I know: to many of you Java is this wishy-washy language that's way too
wordy and structured." :)

Thought it was interest,

Hen


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Re: Linux Magazine article

[Nicola Ken Barozzi]

James Mitchell wrote:

Is it true that Marc had asked to move JBoss over and that it was not
accepted?

I guess I was not around during that time (if it ever was).  I had sensed
(from monitoring the Jboss-users and dev lists early this year) that there
was a bit of ill sentiment towards the 'Jakarta Love Train' ;)

I had heard rumors, but never knew what to make of it until I asked him
directly myself at a JBoss presentation at the local JUG meeting a few
months back, and his response was something like"nothing but a bunch of
Sun guys there", but I couldn't make out exactly what he said.

Is any of this true?  Was Jboss rejected from joining Apache?


Some history info:
http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=java-apache-framework&m=97567909732611&w=2


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Nicola Ken Barozzi   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
- verba volant, scripta manent -
   (discussions get forgotten, just code remains)
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