Re: nice
On 30/1/03 13:26 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache? In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person being discriminated against because of their employer. Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met in my entire life: From http://www.lyra.org/greg/: Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development Manager, in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder and the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic commerce software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Right but he's not AFAIK working there now and potentially exposed to NDA-tainted individuals :-) -Andy - Original Message - From: Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 30, 2003 4:31 PM Subject: Re: nice On 30/1/03 13:26 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 10:03 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache? In my brief association with the ASF, I have never heard of a person being discriminated against because of their employer. Let's not forget that our CHAIRMAN (Greg Stein) worked for quite an extensive period at Microsoft... And he's one of the nicest guys I've met in my entire life: From http://www.lyra.org/greg/: Between 1996 and 1998, Mr. Stein worked at Microsoft as a Development Manager, in the Commerce Server and Site Server groups. He was also a co-founder and the Corporate Technologist of eShop, one of the first electronic commerce software companies, before its acquisition by Microsoft in 1996. Pier - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Robert Simmons wrote: Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your way. You get to choose between a mass of political bullshit and having no choice at all. you have a choice: open source software. And it's a good choice for real life business, too. cheers :D - Leo - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Robert Simmons wrote: JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and that is why .NET will win. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP]. Hen On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys tery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. -jon +1 Well said Jon. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 08:32 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: It's only by understanding the JCP and infiltrating it that we have much chance to try and change it though. The whole thing is just one opaque block from here. We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so. There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be saying anything against the negative views of the JCP. FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so. This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP. There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all members via your companies? As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues with employers? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court that decides whether to recount the votes... decides everything. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software . strategy . design http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
On Wednesday, January 29, 2003, at 09:38 AM, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be saying anything against the negative views of the JCP. Of course we/I can/will. It's no secret that Apache had significant problems with the managing process of the JCP, and much effort was invested to improve it. If you remember, Jason Hunter was on stage at last year's JavaOne's announcement of the changes. While there are still plenty of valid issues that people have with the JCP as a whole, or JSRs in specific, the intent of the ASF's participation is to be a constructive advocate of the way we think that standards and software should be developed. We are just one vote of many - we can say our piece, lobby and try to convince others, support our representatives on JSRs, but at the end of the day, we are just one voice. FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so. This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP. What else would you like to know? What are your specific problems? is there a specific technology/spec that you are interested in participating in? have you ever interacted with the expert group of a JSR via their interest list or during a public, community review? I started my participation by just sending comments to the servlet EG, and I found them extremely responsive, far more responsive that I would have expected for a random comment from the ether. Of course, this differs from EG to EG, just like different communities differ on OSS projects. There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all members via your companies? The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed. Remember, it's up to the expert group to accept members for participation. You are free to represent your company, if you choose. As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues with employers? That depends upon your employment agreement/contract with your employer. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns, anthrax, etc.? At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court that decides whether to recount the votes... decides everything. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software . strategy . design http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] LEGAL NOTICE This electronic mail transmission and any accompanying documents contain information belonging to the sender which may be confidential and legally privileged. This information is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to whom this electronic mail transmission was sent as indicated above. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or action taken in reliance on the contents of the information contained in this transmission is strictly prohibited. If you have received this transmission in error, please delete the message. Thank you - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: nice
http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/godwin_s_law.html Tom -Original Message- From: Micael [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 12:20 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: nice I think the next improvement on who decides should mention guns, anthrax, etc.? At 10:08 AM 1/29/03 -0500, you wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Those who cast the votes decide nothing. Those who count the votes decide everything. --Josef Stalin Actually, the latest update to this is, The court that decides whether to recount the votes... decides everything. -- Serge Knystautas President Lokitech software . strategy . design http://www.lokitech.com p. 301.656.5501 e. [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed. Correct. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the agreement thing and be an ASF representative? Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed. Correct. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: (...) Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. IMO, the closeness of the JCP process brings most of the bullshitness of it. Even having open (to read, not to post) lists for the different groups would change a lot of the JCP procedures and results, by making obvious dark political moves attackable from the outside. Regards, Santiago -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: (...) What else would you like to know? What are your specific problems? is there a specific technology/spec that you are interested in participating in? have you ever interacted with the expert group of a JSR via their interest list or during a public, community review? I started my participation by just sending comments to the servlet EG, and I found them extremely responsive, far more responsive that I would have expected for a random comment from the ether. Of course, this differs from EG to EG, just like different communities differ on OSS projects. How did you get a base for your comments? I imagine you were commenting on, let's say, Servlet2.2 when they were working on Servlet2.3, or something similar, maybe a public draft. But when a group gets formed in Jan-2002 (http://www.jcp.org/en/jsr/detail?id=168), and there is no single line of output from it till (http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?PlutoProposal), Jan 2003, I don't see a way to send a meaningful comment.Comment on what? When a Draft is published, I expect a response like It's too late to make major changes now, we'll consider for release 2 to any serious comment. You can see what I meant with my previous post about closeness of the process. (...) geir - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
on 2003/1/29 10:26 AM, Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the agreement thing and be an ASF representative? Hen Correct. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Yeah, for instance, I was once interviewed for a contract to hire gig at Microsoft. (This was circa '97 prior to my involvment in Java). Had I sold my soul, would I still be able to be a member of Apache? While I do not subscribe to the jcp ot apache det org mailing list due to the NDA contractual obligations surrounding it (hear no evil, see no evil, and therefore speak no evil), what if Jon said Hi Andy, fellow member, here is the scoop on whats going on with JSR-1234 or moreover what if he didn't? Maybe I'm tainted by merely speaking (electronically) with Jon due to his indemic taint of JCPness. So then I go back to work at M$ and start hacking on I dunno ASP or something. Sun gets wind of it and says HEY ASP is stealing our stuff (though we stole it from them) Or since the JCP seeks to create a spec for everything, what if I work for some other company which say puts out anything to do with Micro devices (pdas, etc) or portals. Am I a potential object of litigation just through my association with Apache and Apache's association with the JCP? I'd sure feel a lot less fear, uncertainty and doubt if all my fellow apache members weren't under NDAs carrying around tainted knowledge which is proprietary of Sun. It seems an open process would sure make the JCP a whole lot more appealing. But then I'm weird like that. -Andy - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 9:38 AM Subject: Re: nice On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote: We have 'infiltrated' it. The ASF is a member of the J2SE/J2EE executive committee (I am the current representative), and we have many members (and non-members) participating in various JSRs. Yeah I know. Thus my questions as to whether Apache/you should/could be saying anything against the negative views of the JCP. FYI - Through the significant efforts of Jason Hunter, the previous JCP rep, and others (Chuck Murko, for example), the ASF was instrumental in fostering change in the JCP process, and will continue to do so. This is about all I do hear regarding ASF/JCP. There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. Just the FAQs. Like, does Apache have a non-profit membership? So that anyone who is an ASF member is able to be on multiple JSRs, or are you all members via your companies? As a member through Apache, does that cause any legal contractual issues with employers? Hen - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
And they would not be able to collaborate with their fellow members who are not in the expert group due to NDAs. -Andy - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 1:26 PM Subject: Re: nice So the solution for committers who would like to be involved in the JCP is to hand around their announce list and website, when a particular new JSR is announced they can go volunteer. If successful, then they would do the agreement thing and be an ASF representative? Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2003/1/29 7:16 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The ASF is a member. Any ASF member is covered by that agreement, and can thus, if they choose, represent the ASF on the EG if the EG accepts. IIRC, non-members can also represent the ASF on an expert group, but it does require JCP agreements to be signed. Correct. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
There is a JCP mail list, but because of various non-disclosure agreements made by the ASF, it's limited to ASF members, who are bound by the same agreements. If there is sufficient interest in an open JCP discussion list, I'm sure we can set that up. +1 - especially if a goal of it is to foster change within the JCP and promote an open model for the JCP and Java. -Andy geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP]. Hen On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mystery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and that is why .NET will win. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP]. Hen On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys tery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
But who speaks for JCP? While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the registration]. Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs. Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark picture it is often portrayed as? Or is it a loose federation. In which case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the JCP and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money and not a better future for Java. To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a large, probably political and argumentative body of powerful entities. While it may be a good thing compared to Microsoft's dictatorship, it's almost definitely less efficient, and not the open system it should be. Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: JCP is the Java community process. A federation of hundreds of companies that produces standards (such as EJB) for the Java community. Anyone can be a member and your vote counts. JCP is what Java has that .NET never will and that is why .NET will win. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP]. Hen On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys tery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
will and that is why .NET will win. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 3:12 AM Subject: Re: nice Interesting points. Who runs the JCP? Is Apache just a member, or an actual runner? If so, is it Apache's role to comment in anyway on the current disatisfaction with the hidden-ness of the JCP? Or is that the JCP themselves [if such exists] role? [Apache's role, along with all the other top-level members of the JCP]. Hen On Tue, 28 Jan 2003, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: http://rasmussen.homeip.net:8088/fileblog/blog/computers/java/culture#jcp_mys tery -Andy - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: But who speaks for JCP? Those who chose to be involved. I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer, I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP. While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee. You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon. Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership commercial entities: $5000 educational/non-profit organizations: $2000 individuals: $0 existing licensees: $0 If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend such money. An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the registration]. That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue are the errant employees. I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF at work. I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed one JSR at a time? Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs. Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time. Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I see no JCP-wide voting. Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark picture it is often portrayed as? Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it isnt common enough to qualify as often. I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively. Or is it a loose federation. In which case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the JCP Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United Nations. Dissenters are abounds. And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a natural speaker. and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money and not a better future for Java. *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can stop the huge coporates than you need a reality check. I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :) The thing that stops them is popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a different nature than you percieve. Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal official for that company? The drive to open source the JDK is being driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a growing belief that Sun doesnt have the resources needed to handle all of the changes in java. Where are the mail archives to back this up? Where do the members of the JCP discuss the state of the Java world? To those of us who have not seen the insides of the JCP, it looks like a large, probably political and argumentative
Re: nice
Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your way. You get to choose between a mass of political bullshit and having no choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of political bullshit but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Jon Scott Stevens [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 29, 2003 6:37 AM Subject: Re: nice Don't bother questioning or wondering about the JCP. Fact of the matter is that it is just one big fucked mess full of all the political bullshit you could ever imagine. It isn't worth your time. -jon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
on 2003/1/28 9:50 PM, Robert Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Welcome to real life business. In the real world, not everything goes your way. You get to choose between a mass of political bullshit and having no choice at all. I opt for choice even if the choice is flawed. You can put your future in the hands of Microsoft if you want. Problem is that you are trusting them in a way they shouldn't be trusted. You gain the lack of political bullshit but loose the future.As long as Sun continues to respect the voting of the JCP, I will continue to support the JCP. Fact of the matter is that they don't unless you bitch loudly enough that they are disrespecting the purpose of the JCP. But then again, you probably don't see all the discussion that goes on the Servlet API and the other JSR that I'm on. If it wasn't for people like myself, Pier, Jason Hunter other ASF members (and other OSS people), the JCP would be producing specifications that we would never be able to implement here. What good is that? How is that any different than what M$ does? Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: nice
[Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP in a text browser the mail archives are at: http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html Time for more spam :) Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: But who speaks for JCP? Those who chose to be involved. I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer, I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP. While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee. You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon. Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership commercial entities: $5000 educational/non-profit organizations: $2000 individuals: $0 existing licensees: $0 If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend such money. An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the registration]. That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue are the errant employees. I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF at work. I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed one JSR at a time? Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs. Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time. Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I see no JCP-wide voting. Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark picture it is often portrayed as? Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it isnt common enough to qualify as often. I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively. Or is it a loose federation. In which case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the JCP Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United Nations. Dissenters are abounds. And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a natural speaker. and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money and not a better future for Java. *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can stop the huge coporates than you need a reality check. I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :) The thing that stops them is popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP does have its issues but they are of a different nature than you percieve. Popular opinion of the JCP members? How many members are individual developers? Are developers working for corporate members able to discuss at the JCP, or are they held back by having to go through a single legal official for that company? The drive to open source the JDK is being driven not by an attempt to stop the corporations but by a
Re: nice
To continue having fun replying to myself: This mail list seems to be akin to a JCP-announce list. It seems to be Harold Ogle sending out announcements that new documents are available at the JCP. Useful, but not really what I was asking Robert to show existence of. Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote: [Electricity outages tonight mean my DNS is down. But looking at the JCP in a text browser the mail archives are at: http://archives.java.sun.com/archives/jcp-interest.html Time for more spam :) Hen On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote: On Wed, 29 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: But who speaks for JCP? Those who chose to be involved. I'm not sure I'm conveying the question properly. As an Apache committer, I am unable to speak on behalf of the ASF. Equally, as a JCP member I would not be able to speak on behalf of JCP. While you offer a nice brochure view of the JCP, the other side is that the JCP is a large company dominated organisation which conducts its business behind closed doors and has a high cost to effective entry. High cost ? Last I checked you could be a voting member for a nominal fee. You could be on a single expert comittee for free. Any fees are the bare minimum for the administration of the site and services in my opinon. Source: http://www.jcp.org/en/participation/membership commercial entities: $5000 educational/non-profit organizations: $2000 individuals: $0 existing licensees: $0 If your company or institution cannot afford those fees than they have bigger problems to deal with. I wouldn't be surprised if 5000 is more than most places spend on tools for an individual in a year. For a place with a lot of developers, the money probably quickly vanishes, but small shops are unlikely to spend such money. An individual can join one project without having to pay ridiculous sums [for the individual] and the individual cannot join a project which is to do with their work for their company [due to an effective NDA in the registration]. That is the fault of the company, not the JCP. If the company doesnt want you giving out their intellectual property than you probably wont be able to submit it to the JCP. The jcp intellectual rights rules are there because if some bozo joined and submitted intellectual property from microsoft for example, the JCP could get sued for releasing it in a JSR. The way it is, you give the JCP rights to the info. In which case only people microsoft can sue are the errant employees. I was reading the registration smallprint the other day. If I have an individual membership, it states that I am not allowed to release information to my company gained from my membership. So, if I work on JSP at work, and were to join the JSF JSR, it would seem tricky to work on JSF at work. I've also not seen much at the JCP that details what happens to my individual membership once I finish on a JSR. Is that it? Or am I allowed one JSR at a time? Projects appear to stagnate in the JCP and others appear to fast track through due to Java?Sun?JCP's marketing needs. Thats the bitch of a democracy. Things are voted on in the JCP. If oyu loose the vote *shrug* campaign harder next time. Where are the results of these votes? The site shows the major members of the JCP voting initially, and then shows the panel of experts voting. I see no JCP-wide voting. Do the JCP have official PR people to show why the JCP is not the dark picture it is often portrayed as? Hmm never seen it protrayed that way. Im sure some have that opinion but it isnt common enough to qualify as often. I can't say I've ever seen an article or blog that speaks lovingly of the JCP, whereas I've seen quite a few that portray it negatively. Or is it a loose federation. In which case, should the ASF be picking up those threads as a spokeperson for the JCP Hmm, that would be tough. Sort of like speaking for the entire United Nations. Dissenters are abounds. And yet to use your anology, the ASF are on the Security Council, so would seem a major speaker for the JCP process. Indeed, due to the publicity over the ASF's stance to open up the JCP process, they would seem a natural speaker. and explaining just why the ASF and Doug Lea are able to stop the huge corporates from turning Java into some system designed to make them money and not a better future for Java. *Yanks the soapbox out from under his feet.* Your view on things is rediculously naive. If you think one person or one company can stop the huge coporates than you need a reality check. I'm happy to accept a cynical: They can't be :) The thing that stops them is popular opinion. If they try to do somethign lame, he JCP smacks them in the teeth for it. Life is grand. The JCP
Re: nice
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: Real life business shouldn't be bullshit. I'm not going to buy into that. It is people like you who opt into the flawed choices instead of speaking up that allow the flawed choices to continue on longer than they should. Yay! +1 Cluetrain might be the naive interpretation of that, but still it's a good way to deal with the so-called 'real-life' without becoming a cynic. /Steven -- Steven Noelshttp://outerthought.org/ Outerthought - Open Source, Java XML Competence Support Center Read my weblog athttp://blogs.cocoondev.org/stevenn/ stevenn at outerthought.orgstevenn at apache.org - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
