Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
I was merely asking if anyone had given a thought to the question of legal issues and how they relate to Wiki + ASF. I think that it is a reasonable question, and I was surprised that no one had raised this issue. Audit trail...? The same issues are in the wiki as are in the CVS repository and with Bugzilla. Anyone could do the things you say. Is there an audit train, go look. hit Recent changes. The thing about the wiki is we just delete inapporpriate content. Wiki's have a long and proud history and so far as I know have NEVER gotten anyone sued. It is important to keep reminding yourself that Apache is a corporation of Delaware, and it is subject to real IP law. If you've been watching some of the dev lists I've been watching, there have been some small copyright violations of late that, luckily, have been settled amicably.This coupled with the fact that ASF wants to start raising more operational funds (Attachment A, November board minutes), makes legal questions very important. I'd ask you to look up the word indemnity, and meditate. You want FUD? Open source software has *very* well funded enemies. :-( Right, however I don't see how this is any different. Anyone can post an illegal patch into bugzilla with relative ease. If that little password thing makes you comfortable, go get a yahoo address with a fake name and post the secret sauce in a patch. I call this FUD because you're concerned with something that hasn't ever happened before (as far as I know, please point me to a case if you know otherwise), Ward Cunningham has been running a wiki for like 10 years or so, you're concerned with something highly correctable (easily deleteable content). And lastly the main threat on an Apache wiki is that someone posts something from a book on an Apache topic. Somehow I doubt the publisher of such a book would want to shut Apache down (kinda hard for them to sell books that way). Any other IP would probably be too off topic and would probably be deleted just by WTF does that have to do with anything... (Not that I think we should be too strict). So by the well funded enemies I must presume you mean Microsoft primarily. Yes if they are our enemy that is a problem indeed. It seems like something that is particularly remediable. We should seek their friendship and work on getting some .NET projects started. PS: You are right about Wiki's effective self regulation, I'm astonished that Wikipedia still adheres to the neutrality policy on topics that deal with current events - (if only major world conflicts could be settled on Wiki?). I started a Wikipedia page on Jakarta, it is sparse, and hardly accurate SO FIX IT: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_Project Notice how expansive that wikipedia is? I would presume that Britannica and friends have a vested interest in not seeing it grow. AFAIK they have yet to be sued. Bottom line, we can be sued for anyhthing, there are things that are of greater risk (hosting source code for instance, I'm sure by now 'IF' statements violate someone's patent somewhere). Wikis have a proven long track record, and I would rather NOT argue legal issues with software developers. Its a big fat waste of time. This isn't a comment on your worth as a human being or whatever, just IANAL and AFAIK you aren't either, so we both don't know WTF we're talking about which leads to a conversation of pure conjecture and speculation which has no logical conclusion. If you honestly feel this is going to be a problem (despite it never having happened in the history of the net so far google is aware of), its your right, responsibility and duty to bring it to the boards attention. -jAndy.NET Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? O'brien, Tim wrote: A non-member, non-commiter, doc patch submitter with three questions here, Would this Wiki be limited to those with commit status? If not, how does this jive with the whole merit-based Apache-way? Does a public wiki have any legal ramifications for ASF? If Wiki is open to the public and someone puts GPL'd or copyrighted material on Wiki, who would bear responsibility? Lets not start with the FUD.. If it happens, we'll remove them. What if someone puts the detailed information on how to produce Anthrax, and hides the secret location of Osama Bin Ladin in a patch submitted which also brilliantly makes Velocity run 300x faster than it does currently so that we have to choose between making the CIA happy or velocity running fast... Wiki's self regulate. You'll see. Lets not What if problems that don't exist. Go see http://www.wikipedia.org/ and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki to see what can happen and on what scale, without those things being a problem... Lets
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
James Mitchell wrote: No JSP does indeed suck. It just sucks less with Struts. LOL..ok, we'll leave it at that. You gotta understand Andy, he's got his own language: - it sucks == I don't get it - the idea is good but implementation sucks == I'm not able to use it - it sucks but with this and that it sucks less == I'm able to use it - it's very good == I wrote it - you should use it == it simply works, dunno why but I like it - it rocks == I've never used it but it makes me salivate ;-P -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: James Mitchell wrote: No JSP does indeed suck. It just sucks less with Struts. LOL..ok, we'll leave it at that. You gotta understand Andy, he's got his own language: - it sucks == I don't get it - the idea is good but implementation sucks == I'm not able to use it - it sucks but with this and that it sucks less == I'm able to use it - it's very good == I wrote it - you should use it == it simply works, dunno why but I like it - it rocks == I've never used it but it makes me salivate Oh, I made a mistake, that's me :-) -- Nicola Ken Barozzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] - verba volant, scripta manent - (discussions get forgotten, just code remains) - -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote: James Mitchell wrote: No JSP does indeed suck. It just sucks less with Struts. LOL..ok, we'll leave it at that. You gotta understand Andy, he's got his own language: - it sucks == I don't get it Damn. I thought you did understand me Ken -- guess not. I've written 10x as many JSP pages as most of the JSP-lovers. My first JSP page was in version 0.8 (or so) with Netscape Application Server. It used to corrupt the pages at random and require you to go touch the files (funn!)... Before that I was writing ASP pages. JSP sucks slightly less than ASP. But I prefer to call JSP: InvertedServlets. Just because I understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't suck. - the idea is good but implementation sucks == I'm not able to use it My ass. This means that conceptually I like it, but that either its crappy code with 900 levels of inheritence tree to sort though. It throws random exceptions. - it sucks but with this and that it sucks less == I'm able to use it No. It means the suckiness is mitigated. - it's very good == I wrote it No. I'm the author of something called SuckyViewer... I don't think thats justified. If I write something that sucks I incorporate the suck into its name. Therefore its clearly labeled (which makes it suck less I suppose). I renamed it sheet viewer after someone refactored it not to suck anymore. - you should use it == it simply works, dunno why but I like it No.. I typically know why. - it rocks == I've never used it but it makes me salivate Ummm name something I've noted Rocks that I haven't used? ;-P glare -Andy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Again, I watch, and prod Andrew, Wiki is a good idea - I've got OJB docs to publish asap. Getting a committer to notice doc patches can be difficult (programmers rarely love to stop and write detailed, grammatically correct documentation - we're all guilty). I was merely asking if anyone had given a thought to the question of legal issues and how they relate to Wiki + ASF. I think that it is a reasonable question, and I was surprised that no one had raised this issue. Audit trail...? It is important to keep reminding yourself that Apache is a corporation of Delaware, and it is subject to real IP law. If you've been watching some of the dev lists I've been watching, there have been some small copyright violations of late that, luckily, have been settled amicably.This coupled with the fact that ASF wants to start raising more operational funds (Attachment A, November board minutes), makes legal questions very important. I'd ask you to look up the word indemnity, and meditate. You want FUD? Open source software has *very* well funded enemies. :-( PS: You are right about Wiki's effective self regulation, I'm astonished that Wikipedia still adheres to the neutrality policy on topics that deal with current events - (if only major world conflicts could be settled on Wiki?). I started a Wikipedia page on Jakarta, it is sparse, and hardly accurate SO FIX IT: http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jakarta_Project Tim O'Brien -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 8:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? O'brien, Tim wrote: A non-member, non-commiter, doc patch submitter with three questions here, Would this Wiki be limited to those with commit status? If not, how does this jive with the whole merit-based Apache-way? Does a public wiki have any legal ramifications for ASF? If Wiki is open to the public and someone puts GPL'd or copyrighted material on Wiki, who would bear responsibility? Lets not start with the FUD.. If it happens, we'll remove them. What if someone puts the detailed information on how to produce Anthrax, and hides the secret location of Osama Bin Ladin in a patch submitted which also brilliantly makes Velocity run 300x faster than it does currently so that we have to choose between making the CIA happy or velocity running fast... Wiki's self regulate. You'll see. Lets not What if problems that don't exist. Go see http://www.wikipedia.org/ and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki to see what can happen and on what scale, without those things being a problem... Lets be eXtereme just for this and have courage. If wikis are dangerous then Ward Cunningham is an evil evil man. -Andy Tim O'Brien W 847-574-2143 M 847-863-7045 -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? +1 Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? If not, what about servlet engine + database access? If so. I will select one based on ease of maintenence, setup, security and set it up by the end of next week. Thank you, -Andy Tom Copeland wrote: Love 'em. Let's pick one and set it up... they're very cool tom -Original Message- From: Rodney Waldhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:36 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: A Jakarta wiki? On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Scott Eade wrote: So how about some feedback: 1. Wiki's - love 'em or hate 'em? Love 'em, and think they would provide (a) a good way to write ad hoc documentation, (b) a good way to host certain discussions. At my day job we use an internal wiki for documentation almost exclusively, and sometimes as an effective public brainstorming tool. (And we're fairly centrally located--for distributed, asynchronous discussion a wiki is even more useful.) 2. JSPWiki - good choice or bad choice? Never used it, so no real opinion, although there seem to be a number of wiki's that are much more popular (perhaps not in java though). There's a big list of wiki impls on Ward's Wiki at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines, of course. (Most wiki clones, JSPWiki included, seem to be GPLed, if that matters to anyone.) 3. Scope of the wiki(s) - ((Turbine) and (Avalon)), Jakarta or Apache? I'd like to see a wiki with at least jakarta scope. One option might be to use a wiki that supports namespaces, or a federation
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Thanks Pier and Andrew - you made Andrew's suggested deadline with a week to spare ;-) Scott -- Scott Eade Backstage Technologies Pty. Ltd. http://www.backstagetech.com.au .Mac Chat/AIM: seade at mac dot com On 21/12/2002 5:51 PM, Pier Fumagalli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 21/12/02 2:34 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? Your definition of ACTION is AskSam? AFAIK, your authority and mine with respect to being able to execute cgi scripts on a machine like cvs.apache.org are the same. I just did a few tests, and apparently I don't have permission. That's called defensive programming (ehem... Administration) :-) If not, what about servlet engine + database access? Not on any BSD machine. You will find a more receptive set of sysadmins on nagoya. In any case, the right place to pursue this is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Done... http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/ I'd still prefer a Java/MySQL based approach, but It's up and running... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Done... http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/ I'd still prefer a Java/MySQL based approach, but It's up and running... No reason not to if you have the drive and ambition to set one up (obviously do so now before too much content is generated). This one has the advantage of being gentle on the server while being easy to set up. I literally spent 5 minutes on it. I don't actually care what technology my tools are in provided they work and meet my requirements, but I'm an odd person. -Andy Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
*looks down at his cookie monster house slippers* ... Okay. I guess I'm normal then ;-) (In which case many of y'all are weird) ... LOL.my kids have those!!! Though the irony of Anyone who thinks differently is selling something from someone with Struts Evangelist written in his tag line is kinda funny... Yes, I've been told on occasion that I'm funny (then they mumble something that sounds like looking ;) In all honesty, I've been smoking the Open Source weed for about 2 years now, and its really gotten intense in the last few months. Guess I'm just hooked on rollin it the Struts way ;) Perhaps I should change the flag I fly to the higher cause!! (see below) (Not a struts slam, just a ironic...struts is the most humane way to do JSP...I've used it myself.) I agree. If its one thing that pisses me off, its %=this%. I cringe every time I see JSP sucks!!!. I just want to scream NO, YOU HATE IT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY wiki msg=Holy Crap This is FUN http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsProjectPages /wiki -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. - Bjarne Stroustrup -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 4:10 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? I disagree, that's not odd at all. You've just quoted (more or less) every employer/contract I've ever had. Anyone who thinks differently is selling something!!! *looks down at his cookie monster house slippers* ... Okay. I guess I'm normal then ;-) (In which case many of y'all are weird) ... Though the irony of Anyone who thinks differently is selling something from someone with Struts Evangelist written in his tag line is kinda funny... (Not a struts slam, just a ironic...struts is the most humane way to do JSP...I've used it myself.) -Andy -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. - Bjarne Stroustrup -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 7:44 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? Done... http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/ I'd still prefer a Java/MySQL based approach, but It's up and running... No reason not to if you have the drive and ambition to set one up (obviously do so now before too much content is generated). This one has the advantage of being gentle on the server while being easy to set up. I literally spent 5 minutes on it. I don't actually care what technology my tools are in provided they work and meet my requirements, but I'm an odd person. -Andy Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
No JSP does indeed suck. It just sucks less with Struts. LOL..ok, we'll leave it at that. -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. - Bjarne Stroustrup -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, December 21, 2002 9:59 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? (Not a struts slam, just a ironic...struts is the most humane way to do JSP...I've used it myself.) I agree. If its one thing that pisses me off, its %=this%. I cringe every time I see JSP sucks!!!. I just want to scream NO, YOU HATE IT BECAUSE YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO LEARN HOW TO DO IT CORRECTLY wiki msg=Holy Crap This is FUN http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/apachewiki.cgi?StrutsProjectPages /wiki No JSP does indeed suck. It just sucks less with Struts. -Andy -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Open Source Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot; C++ makes it harder, but when you do, it blows away your whole leg. - Bjarne Stroustrup -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
A non-member, non-commiter, doc patch submitter with three questions here, Would this Wiki be limited to those with commit status? If not, how does this jive with the whole merit-based Apache-way? Does a public wiki have any legal ramifications for ASF? If Wiki is open to the public and someone puts GPL'd or copyrighted material on Wiki, who would bear responsibility? Tim O'Brien W 847-574-2143 M 847-863-7045 -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? +1 Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? If not, what about servlet engine + database access? If so. I will select one based on ease of maintenence, setup, security and set it up by the end of next week. Thank you, -Andy Tom Copeland wrote: Love 'em. Let's pick one and set it up... they're very cool tom -Original Message- From: Rodney Waldhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:36 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: A Jakarta wiki? On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Scott Eade wrote: So how about some feedback: 1. Wiki's - love 'em or hate 'em? Love 'em, and think they would provide (a) a good way to write ad hoc documentation, (b) a good way to host certain discussions. At my day job we use an internal wiki for documentation almost exclusively, and sometimes as an effective public brainstorming tool. (And we're fairly centrally located--for distributed, asynchronous discussion a wiki is even more useful.) 2. JSPWiki - good choice or bad choice? Never used it, so no real opinion, although there seem to be a number of wiki's that are much more popular (perhaps not in java though). There's a big list of wiki impls on Ward's Wiki at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines, of course. (Most wiki clones, JSPWiki included, seem to be GPLed, if that matters to anyone.) 3. Scope of the wiki(s) - ((Turbine) and (Avalon)), Jakarta or Apache? I'd like to see a wiki with at least jakarta scope. One option might be to use a wiki that supports namespaces, or a federation of wikis with intra-wiki links, so that one could create a sub-wiki per project but still support global cross-linking. For example, a intra-wiki link might look like Turbine:OracleHowTo versus plain ol' OracleHowTo. Alternatively, a simple convention of prefixing the project name might be sufficient for a shared wiki namespace, but might need support from some WikiGnomes. 4. Hosting - apache.org or external Something internal would seem official. 5. Timing - now, soon, later or never Soon. If I can use this wiki (or this makes it easier to set up another wiki) for other jakarta/apache projects, I'd be more than happy to help out however I can. Please keep me posted, either via jakarta-general, by pointing out where this discussion is happening, or via a direct note. - Rod -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Andrew, ACTION is good mm'kay. I think we should at least consider a Java based wiki: - JSPWiki at http://www.ecyrd.com/JSPWiki/Wiki.jsp is used by Cocoon (I installed this locally and had it running in about 5 minutes). - Micael mentioned Chiki (http://chiki.emaho.org/) - this looks pretty good too (but I haven't tried installing it yet). Rodney Waldhoff's comment concerning namespaces is very important. For JSPWiki I think we would need to go down the federation of wikis with intra-wiki links path (prefixing with project names becomes a PITA fairly quickly IMO). It looks like Chiki's nodes provide independent namespaces, but it wasn't obvious how to go about creating a node (it is worth looking into this though as the federation model may require more effort to set up new sub-wikis, but perhaps this is not such a bad thing). Twiki is an excellent cgi based wiki (http://www.twiki.org), but I think we are better off adopting a solution that we can more easily contribute to if we so desire (note that both JSPWiki and Chiki are GPL). I am unsure of the legal ramifications that Tim O'Brien raises, but the whole point of wanting a wiki is to allow update access by non-committers. A more subtle point is whether or not to allow anonymous postings - I myself prefer people to register before they can make changes, it only takes a few seconds, and provides at least some form of (albeit easily circumvented) author trail. It is excellent to see that you are so keen - targeting the end of next week sounds great. Scott -- Scott Eade Backstage Technologies Pty. Ltd. http://www.backstagetech.com.au .Mac Chat/AIM: seade at mac dot com On 21/12/2002 6:25 AM, Andrew C. Oliver [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: +1 Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? If not, what about servlet engine + database access? If so. I will select one based on ease of maintenence, setup, security and set it up by the end of next week. Thank you, -Andy Tom Copeland wrote: Love 'em. Let's pick one and set it up... they're very cool tom -Original Message- From: Rodney Waldhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:36 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: A Jakarta wiki? On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Scott Eade wrote: So how about some feedback: 1. Wiki's - love 'em or hate 'em? Love 'em, and think they would provide (a) a good way to write ad hoc documentation, (b) a good way to host certain discussions. At my day job we use an internal wiki for documentation almost exclusively, and sometimes as an effective public brainstorming tool. (And we're fairly centrally located--for distributed, asynchronous discussion a wiki is even more useful.) 2. JSPWiki - good choice or bad choice? Never used it, so no real opinion, although there seem to be a number of wiki's that are much more popular (perhaps not in java though). There's a big list of wiki impls on Ward's Wiki at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines, of course. (Most wiki clones, JSPWiki included, seem to be GPLed, if that matters to anyone.) 3. Scope of the wiki(s) - ((Turbine) and (Avalon)), Jakarta or Apache? I'd like to see a wiki with at least jakarta scope. One option might be to use a wiki that supports namespaces, or a federation of wikis with intra-wiki links, so that one could create a sub-wiki per project but still support global cross-linking. For example, a intra-wiki link might look like Turbine:OracleHowTo versus plain ol' OracleHowTo. Alternatively, a simple convention of prefixing the project name might be sufficient for a shared wiki namespace, but might need support from some WikiGnomes. 4. Hosting - apache.org or external Something internal would seem official. 5. Timing - now, soon, later or never Soon. If I can use this wiki (or this makes it easier to set up another wiki) for other jakarta/apache projects, I'd be more than happy to help out however I can. Please keep me posted, either via jakarta-general, by pointing out where this discussion is happening, or via a direct note. - Rod -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
O'brien, Tim wrote: A non-member, non-commiter, doc patch submitter with three questions here, Would this Wiki be limited to those with commit status? If not, how does this jive with the whole merit-based Apache-way? Does a public wiki have any legal ramifications for ASF? If Wiki is open to the public and someone puts GPL'd or copyrighted material on Wiki, who would bear responsibility? Lets not start with the FUD.. If it happens, we'll remove them. What if someone puts the detailed information on how to produce Anthrax, and hides the secret location of Osama Bin Ladin in a patch submitted which also brilliantly makes Velocity run 300x faster than it does currently so that we have to choose between making the CIA happy or velocity running fast... Wiki's self regulate. You'll see. Lets not What if problems that don't exist. Go see http://www.wikipedia.org/ and http://c2.com/cgi/wiki to see what can happen and on what scale, without those things being a problem... Lets be eXtereme just for this and have courage. If wikis are dangerous then Ward Cunningham is an evil evil man. -Andy Tim O'Brien W 847-574-2143 M 847-863-7045 -Original Message- From: Andrew C. Oliver [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 1:26 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki? +1 Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? If not, what about servlet engine + database access? If so. I will select one based on ease of maintenence, setup, security and set it up by the end of next week. Thank you, -Andy Tom Copeland wrote: Love 'em. Let's pick one and set it up... they're very cool tom -Original Message- From: Rodney Waldhoff [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, December 20, 2002 12:36 PM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: A Jakarta wiki? On Sat, 21 Dec 2002, Scott Eade wrote: So how about some feedback: 1. Wiki's - love 'em or hate 'em? Love 'em, and think they would provide (a) a good way to write ad hoc documentation, (b) a good way to host certain discussions. At my day job we use an internal wiki for documentation almost exclusively, and sometimes as an effective public brainstorming tool. (And we're fairly centrally located--for distributed, asynchronous discussion a wiki is even more useful.) 2. JSPWiki - good choice or bad choice? Never used it, so no real opinion, although there seem to be a number of wiki's that are much more popular (perhaps not in java though). There's a big list of wiki impls on Ward's Wiki at http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiEngines, of course. (Most wiki clones, JSPWiki included, seem to be GPLed, if that matters to anyone.) 3. Scope of the wiki(s) - ((Turbine) and (Avalon)), Jakarta or Apache? I'd like to see a wiki with at least jakarta scope. One option might be to use a wiki that supports namespaces, or a federation of wikis with intra-wiki links, so that one could create a sub-wiki per project but still support global cross-linking. For example, a intra-wiki link might look like Turbine:OracleHowTo versus plain ol' OracleHowTo. Alternatively, a simple convention of prefixing the project name might be sufficient for a shared wiki namespace, but might need support from some WikiGnomes. 4. Hosting - apache.org or external Something internal would seem official. 5. Timing - now, soon, later or never Soon. If I can use this wiki (or this makes it easier to set up another wiki) for other jakarta/apache projects, I'd be more than happy to help out however I can. Please keep me posted, either via jakarta-general, by pointing out where this discussion is happening, or via a direct note. - Rod -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:general- [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? Your definition of ACTION is AskSam? AFAIK, your authority and mine with respect to being able to execute cgi scripts on a machine like cvs.apache.org are the same. I just did a few tests, and apparently I don't have permission. If not, what about servlet engine + database access? Not on any BSD machine. You will find a more receptive set of sysadmins on nagoya. In any case, the right place to pursue this is [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Sam Ruby -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
On Friday, December 20, 2002, at 09:26 PM, Andrew C. Oliver wrote: O'brien, Tim wrote: A non-member, non-commiter, doc patch submitter with three questions here, Would this Wiki be limited to those with commit status? If not, how does this jive with the whole merit-based Apache-way? Does a public wiki have any legal ramifications for ASF? If Wiki is open to the public and someone puts GPL'd or copyrighted material on Wiki, who would bear responsibility? Lets not start with the FUD.. If it happens, we'll remove them. What if someone puts the detailed information on how to produce Anthrax, and hides the secret location of Osama Bin Ladin in a patch submitted which also brilliantly makes Velocity run 300x faster than it does currently so that we have to choose between making the CIA happy or velocity running fast... Then it would be 300x JSP :) -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-355-2219(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-247-1713(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
Lets not start with the FUD.. If it happens, we'll remove them. What if someone puts the detailed information on how to produce Anthrax, and hides the secret location of Osama Bin Ladin in a patch submitted which also brilliantly makes Velocity run 300x faster than it does currently so that we have to choose between making the CIA happy or velocity running fast... Then it would be 300x JSP :) But it would have to run CIA sniffer code right? ;-) -Andy -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACTION not WORDS Re: A Jakarta wiki?
On 21/12/02 2:34 Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew C. Oliver wrote: Sam, do you or someone have the abillity/will to give me sufficient rights to install a small cgi script on an apache webserver somewhere with filesystem access? Your definition of ACTION is AskSam? AFAIK, your authority and mine with respect to being able to execute cgi scripts on a machine like cvs.apache.org are the same. I just did a few tests, and apparently I don't have permission. That's called defensive programming (ehem... Administration) :-) If not, what about servlet engine + database access? Not on any BSD machine. You will find a more receptive set of sysadmins on nagoya. In any case, the right place to pursue this is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Done... http://nagoya.apache.org/wiki/ I'd still prefer a Java/MySQL based approach, but It's up and running... Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
