Re: Forum Software.
Robert Simmons typed the following on 03:20 24/01/2003 +0100 I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions. Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing. So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever. Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it. A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and eliminates choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you do want. Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Very well said! Mvgr, Martin On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 10:47, Kief Morris wrote: So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever. Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it. A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and eliminates choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you do want. Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
On Fri, 2003-01-24 at 04:47, Kief Morris wrote: So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever. Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it. Not always a great thing unfortunately. Not when a noob posts to the wrong list, then insists _HE_ is not reading a mailing list because _HE_ accessed the list via a forum from some web site. ;) -- Dan Trevino [EMAIL PROTECTED] bluemagnet, llc -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
Yes, what you're saying makes sense. From my perspective, being quite active with ant-user (and ant-dev), but mostly only lurking on apache-general, commons-users, turbine-maven with occasional posts, I'd say that mailing lists are better for active involvement, but news is better for lurking and the occasional question to a list. This is why I thought Gmane would be ideal for the latter; unfortunately it doesn't allow posting on non-public lists, like Apache lists requiring registration. Once Gmane implements this feature, lurking with occasional post will be easy (as I find using news and mail together inconvenient). My $.02, --DD -Original Message- From: Kief Morris [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Friday, January 24, 2003 3:47 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Forum Software. Robert Simmons typed the following on 03:20 24/01/2003 +0100 I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions. Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing. So, read the archive. The great thing about mailing lists is ithey're open - anyone who wants to can put whatever interface they like onto it - web, news, whatever. Don't like the search engine? What search engine would you use if it was a forum? Why not use that on an archive? Do you prefer the threading in your favorite forum package to that in an archive? Implement it. A forum is a closed system, it limits access to a single point, and eliminates choice. Rather than stripping functionality away from people who use it just because you don't like it, ignore those features and implement whatever you do want. Kief -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Jon Scott Stevens wrote: on 2003/1/22 12:28 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite an effort just to download and delete). You should be so lucky to only get 5-10 a day. I get around 400. Yes, but you are a ASF member, and your address is much bettern known than mine: http://www.google.com/search?q=jon%40latchkey.comie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8hl=esbtnG=B%C3%BAsqueda+en+Googlelr= returns approx 2930 hits, while http://www.google.com/search?hl=esie=UTF-8oe=UTF-8q=sgala%40hisitech.combtnG=B%C3%BAsqueda+en+Googlelr= return approx 258 hits. This says it all ;-) (I don't even count apache.org addresses, etc.) -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
This should be the Jakarta tagline. I think use Jakarta dogmeet. -doug ;] -Original Message- From: V. Cekvenich [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 7:17 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forum Software. And I volunteer to write a Struts/Tomcat based one ( I have most of functionality in basicPortal.com that uses a lot of jakarta project). I think use Jakarta dogmeet. .V Jeff Schnitzer wrote: On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote: We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up to speed... It's on nagoya. If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims Online. However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards Apache. I don't see any reason to fix what isn't broken. IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community. What purpose that leaves, I don't know. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
As far as I could follow when it was set up, people were more keen on the idea to get usefull threads up there (was on tomcat-dev afaik, but Pier should probably remember it better), so they wouldn't be lost in the somethimes enormous mails on the mailinglist and prevent most commons questions from being asked over and over again. I think that it could be usefull for that purpose anyway. Btw love mailinglists and don't do forums much. Mvgr, Martin On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 01:13, Jeff Schnitzer wrote: On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote: We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up to speed... It's on nagoya. If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims Online. However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards Apache. I don't see any reason to fix what isn't broken. IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community. What purpose that leaves, I don't know. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
I say that forum software would be useful because I am in three mailing lists at apache that I use in order to ask questions. Tomcat, Cocoon and this one. as a result i get an enormous amount of mail. Aout 95% of it is irrelevant to me. Im having to filter hundreds of messages per day and that is annyoing. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Martin van den Bemt [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 23, 2003 11:29 PM Subject: Re: Forum Software. As far as I could follow when it was set up, people were more keen on the idea to get usefull threads up there (was on tomcat-dev afaik, but Pier should probably remember it better), so they wouldn't be lost in the somethimes enormous mails on the mailinglist and prevent most commons questions from being asked over and over again. I think that it could be usefull for that purpose anyway. Btw love mailinglists and don't do forums much. Mvgr, Martin On Thu, 2003-01-23 at 01:13, Jeff Schnitzer wrote: On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote: We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up to speed... It's on nagoya. If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims Online. However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards Apache. I don't see any reason to fix what isn't broken. IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community. What purpose that leaves, I don't know. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Try gmane http://www.gmane.org/ then you can use your favourite news reader software to browse the already existing mail lists - it supports replies too. James --- http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/ - Original Message - From: Robert Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 4:07 PM Subject: Forum Software. Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Most forums have subscribe services. However what the devs really need to check is bug tracking more than forums. Forums are a place to discuss things whereas bug tracking is the place to fix things. PhpBB2 has all of those features and is free. It takes about 15 min to configure. You could even, with a bit of work, dump all of the mailing list archives into the forum. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 5:41 PM Subject: Re: Forum Software. So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
-Original Message- From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:41 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Forum Software. So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org/ The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain (1835-1910) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Then how do you answer the following issues: 1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be inundated with email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of potential developers that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but didn't know about the issue. 2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple days of deleting conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop answering questions and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't have the benefit of your expertise. 3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for information a hit and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just aren't sufficient. 4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the software from being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, especially for a popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails they don't care about. After they get their specific question answered, than they unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other qualified people to answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own tasks. Once I'm answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the knowledge in my head that I could have given to another user asking a question is out of the community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could pick and choose what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions that I don't care about. All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for an online project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software. -- Robert - Original Message - From: James Mitchell [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: 'Jakarta General List' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 6:02 PM Subject: RE: Forum Software. -Original Message- From: Henri Yandell [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 2003 11:41 AM To: Jakarta General List Subject: Re: Forum Software. So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org/ The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain (1835-1910) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
-1 Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Are they? I can't agree... I find them non-intrusive (my mail client quiet files them in a folder) and non-spammy (most Jakarta lists stay more or less on topic). Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. I find forums inconvenient compared to mailing lists - too much clicking around is required. And there's always the mailing list archives if you want to dig something up from the past. Which I almost never do. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. -1 When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. I'm not convinced that that conclusion follows from that premise. -- 3 thats in one sentence! What an accomplishment! Yours, Tom -- Robert Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
I'm just a lurker, but: -1 -Original Message- From: Robert Simmons To: Jakarta General Sent: 1/22/2003 8:07 AM Subject: Forum Software. Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be inundated with email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of potential developers that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but didn't know about the issue. Right, users don't want to be inundated with email. They don't have to be unless they subscribe to the lists. Even then they can have their mail client route the email to appropriate folders for future perusal. 2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple days of deleting conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop answering questions and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't have the benefit of your expertise. I disagree - email need not be disruptive; just resist the urge to immediately open and read every email. 3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for information a hit and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just aren't sufficient. A good point here; perchance the search engine could be improved? 4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the software from being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, especially for a popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails they don't care about. After they get their specific question answered, than they unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other qualified people to answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own tasks. Once I'm answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the knowledge in my head that I could have given to another user asking a question is out of the community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could pick and choose what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions that I don't care about. If there was indeed a forum, would non-developer casual users frequent it? Hard to say. All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for an online project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software. Mm, difficult to say what the best comms strategy is. I'm not dogmatically opposed to forums, but I feel the mailing lists work pretty well. Yours, tom -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
James Mitchell wrote: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. +1 I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Same here. Costin Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org/ The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain (1835-1910) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail-news gateway which would expose the lists as news groups. I know Pier tried doing this, (and stopped because it was eating up his bandwidth??) Most importantly if people want it there are free public mail-news gateways they can use right now, no set-up required by Apache. d. -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
From: Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail-news gateway which would expose the lists as news groups. They already are. Point your browser/newsreader at news://news.gmane.org/ or in particular here and follow this thread in your news reader... news://news.gmane.org/gmane.comp.jakarta.general James --- http://radio.weblogs.com/0112098/ __ Do You Yahoo!? Everything you'll ever need on one web page from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts http://uk.my.yahoo.com -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Date: Wed, 22 Jan 2003 18:52:12 +0100 From: Robert Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Forum Software. Then how do you answer the following issues: 1) The vast majority of Jakarta users will not want to be inundated with email on a daily basis. They either wont bother to read it or will unsubscribe. This will ultimately cost us hundreds of potential developers that might have wanted to work on a part of a project but didn't know about the issue. If users can't be bothered to figure out how to use folders and filter rules, they are perfectly free to use the various mail archive sites to search through the messages for previously posted information. An alternative to folders+filters for folks who have crippled mail readers is to subscribe in digest mode instead - that way you only get one message per day per list. A third alternative, as others have pointed out, is to use sites that mirror the mailing lists as newsgroups. 2) The emails are intrusive and disruptive. Its as bad as getting advertising. You care for a while but then after a couple days of deleting conversations not relevant to you. Subsequently you stop answering questions and then you just unsubscribe. This means other users don't have the benefit of your expertise. Forums are totally useless to me, becuase it forces me to go *ask* to participate. Mailing lists get fed to my machine (nicely filtered into a folder for each list, with the default sort sequence set to threading) in the background, and I can go scan a few messages from interesting lists whenever I feel like it. No mailing list message is *ever* sitting in my INBOX, so they don't bother my normal flow. To say nothing of the fact that, since I operate quite often from a laptop, I can read and answer mailing list messages when I'm offline and then send them later when I reconnect. 3) The lack of a complex search engine makes looking for information a hit and miss gesture at best. The archive search engines just aren't sufficient. Search engines for forums can't do any better when the keywords you are looking for are not present in the underlying messages. 4) Mailing lists exclude non-developer casual users of the software from being able t ask questions. If they do subscribe to one, especially for a popular product, they get blasted with hundreds of emails they don't care about. After they get their specific question answered, than they unsubscribe to the list. This robs the list of other qualified people to answer questions. Say, for example, I was an advanced Ant user and subscribed t the list to ask a question about writing my own tasks. Once I'm answered, if ever, I unsubscribe to the list. Now all the knowledge in my head that I could have given to another user asking a question is out of the community. On the other hand, if there was a forum, I could pick and choose what to reply and not be intrusively bothered with questions that I don't care about. I've been a heavy participant in STRUTS-USER (2616 subscribers) and TOMCAT-USER (2410 subscribers), the two largest user lists at Jakarta, for many years, and have not had your experience. Proper configuration of your mail reader can give you the organization and sorting capabilities that you like about forum based software, without eliminating the advantages for people like me. All of this boils down to the best communication strategy for an online project. That would be Bugzilla + forum software. Well, the mailing list volume would certainly go down by the number of questions *I* would not be answering any more if the user lists switched to forums. -- Robert Craig McClanahan -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Costin Manolache wrote: James Mitchell wrote: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. +1 +1 too. Though, I'm not *against* forums, I simply want to keep the mailing lists and the hours of procmail editing that gave me exactly what I needed/wanted. If there can be a web-based/news stuff as well, +0, as long as the mailing lists still exist. I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Same here. Both can coexist, IMHO. Stéphane -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 10:13:20AM -0800, Costin Manolache wrote: James Mitchell wrote: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. +1 +1 too. Though, I'm not *against* forums. I simply want to keep the mailing lists and the hours of procmail editing that gave me exactly what I needed. If there can be a web-based and/or news stuff as well, +0, as long as the mailing lists are still there. I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Same here. Both can coexist, IMO. Stéphane -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons One suggestion and one idea: 1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite an effort just to download and delete). 2. During the ApacheCon I had an interesting discussion with Cocoon and Subversion people (I'm too bad to remember names, but i *do* remember the faces, OK? ) about a dream: A MTA that would show threads folded into a kind of diffs, where each mail in a thread would be coloured in a different way, could be ignored, collapsed etc. Quoted parts should be collapsed together. I don't know if you see it, but I like it! This would save a lot of effort I need to extract the relevant portions of, for instance, mee too posts, side jokes, etc in a long thread. It would be similar to a LXR listing (http://lxr.linux.no/) or cvs view, There is, in fact, whre I got the idea. BTW, a LXR would also be handy to have for our repositories, to enable view of temporal evolution of code, etc. Regards, Santiago -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Danny Angus wrote: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. I think this is a terrible idea, unless... we had a mail-news gateway which would expose the lists as news groups. I like the way perl.org does just this. Their lists are available as both mailing lists and as newsgroups. It seems much of the reason people want to have forums is for the search abilities. There are mail archives available but I must I agree many are so limited in their search abilities and/or interface that they do not help much. Maybe the following combination would keep all happy. lists + lists as newsgroups + really good interface/search of archives R.Parr Temporal Arts -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Hi Robert, First off, I can sympathize with your idea. Users being able to casually drop in on a list with a minimum amount of hassle, e.g. not subscribing for firing up a news reader, a web-based forum makes sense. However, as you can see, I don't think Apache will ever move away from email lists, for all of the great reasons that have already been posted. So, my suggestion is that given that email lists and web forums do the same root function (allowing people to communicate in an asynchronous, threaded post/reply manner), why not investigate using/building a web-based front end for the email lists? Then all of the old-school developers/users can keep the great means of communication that drives Apache but easily browsing/posting from a web browse could still be available to the casual user. Eyebrowse has made a great start of being a better mail archive interface, e.g. with thread support, searching, and the like, but it is not nor tries to be a forum-like interface. Given their existing functionality of reading in mbox or what not email, if you really feel passionately about this web-forum thing (which you must to bring up the topic again), either join the Eyebrowse community or start your own extension to it that implements a convential forum interface. - Stephen -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
on 2003/1/22 12:28 PM, Santiago Gala [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 1. Install spamassassin and server-side filtering (with procmail, for instance). ;-) (It saves me between 5 and 10 spam messages a day, quite an effort just to download and delete). You should be so lucky to only get 5-10 a day. I get around 400. -jon -- StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment 314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco http://studioz.tv/ -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 01:08:56PM -0800, Randall J. Parr wrote: It seems much of the reason people want to have forums is for the search abilities. There are mail archives available but I must I agree many are so limited in their search abilities and/or interface that they do not help much. We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up to speed... It's on nagoya. Pier -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
Ick, I don't want a forum unless it also is a mailing list -- dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting Blog: http://www.freeroller.net/page/dion/Weblog Work: http://www.multitask.com.au Henri Yandell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 23/01/2003 03:41:27 AM: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ForwardSourceID:NT000A6782 -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software.
And I volunteer to write a Struts/Tomcat based one ( I have most of functionality in basicPortal.com that uses a lot of jakarta project). I think use Jakarta dogmeet. .V Jeff Schnitzer wrote: On Wed, Jan 22, 2003 at 11:15:22PM +, Pier Fumagalli wrote: We have a license and an installation of Jive, if someone wants to get it up to speed... It's on nagoya. If you need a volunteer to maintain it, I'll be happy to do so - among other things, I develop and maintain the Jive-based forums for The Sims Online. However, I'm firmly in the mailing-list camp, at least as regards Apache. I don't see any reason to fix what isn't broken. IMHO, the forums will be useful to the extent that their purpose does not overlap with the mailing list and thus split the community. What purpose that leaves, I don't know. Jeff Schnitzer [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: Forum Software.
On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Costin Manolache wrote: James Mitchell wrote: So the suggestion is: All Users lists become forums. Developer lists stay. I will fight to my dying breath to make sure this DOESN'T happen (with what little persuation I can muster). I have come to rely deeply on these lists. +1 +1 Omigosh! I just agreed with Costin! I spend my offline hours (daily commute, boring meetings, vacations, etc) going over the list discussions. I have accumulated a large amount of data that I transform into documentation just from this single source of knowledge transfer. PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE DON'T DO THIS! Same here. +1 Twice in one message! What's the world coming to? ;-) -- Martin Cooper Costin Only problem I see there is that Developers won't check the forums as much as they should, unless the Users forum has a mail list interface. Hen On Wed, 22 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: Well, once again I would like to bring up the concept of forum software for Jakarta. The reason I am bringing it up again is that mailing lists are intrusive and spammy. Daily I get flooded with a ton of email that I have absolutely no interest in reading. However if I unsubscribe to the lists than when there is something that I would like to know about or answer, I will miss it. In addition, if I unsubscribe I'm not able to post my own issues. With a mailing list, the communication mechanism is just too intrusive. On a forum I can pick and choose what I want to read and reply to. As for them being used, its a simple matter of retiring mailing lists for forum software. When we consider that at least 90% of Jakarta users are not Jakarta developers but will often have a question or an important insight, than the folly of communicating only in mailing lists becomes clear. -- Robert Simmons -- James Mitchell Software Engineer/Struts Evangelist http://www.open-tools.org/ The man who does not read good books has no advantage over the man who cannot read them. - Mark Twain (1835-1910) -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
Brian Ewins wrote: I'd disagree. I've yet to see a web based forum that has searching/threading of discussions that are as good as what a mail client can do, or one where I can have the entire forum offline with me while I read/reply at my leisure. I've setup many forum, and my preference goes to YABBSE (www.yabbse.org). Another things I'd like to see on apache.org, and something used by many jakarta developpers, ie weblogs, and for instance MT from moveabletype.org, (www.movabletype.org). Should it be possible to install MT 2.51 on apache.org ? -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote: It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the Jakarta site. checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;) -- Cheers, Peter Donald *-* | Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It | | just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship | | with. | | - Richard Cook| *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it. Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication. --Robert - Original Message - From: Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta? On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote: It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the Jakarta site. checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;) -- Cheers, Peter Donald *-* | Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It | | just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship | | with. | | - Richard Cook| *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
I'd disagree. I've yet to see a web based forum that has searching/threading of discussions that are as good as what a mail client can do, or one where I can have the entire forum offline with me while I read/reply at my leisure. Since you mention a specific example, I've experienced phpBB (on the shatters.net forum for celestia) . Its got a very weak discussion model; there is one message at the 'top' of a discussion within a forum, and all other messages are assumed to be replies to that one. This makes it more difficult to follow what short messages are in reply /to/. A further problem with forums is that they would balkanize discussion of projects. You end up having to read /both/ the mailing list and the forum to find things out. An example of something like this is the irc channels that the maven project uses[1] - more than once you'll see folk being referred from irc to the eyebrowse mail archives, or from the mailing list to irc, to get background on whats going on. Web forums would do the same, and I can't see a single advantage of web forums other than getting a cartoon character at the side of your message? If you want something more forum-y, you could try using the newsfeed version of the mailing lists on gmane? Cheers, Baz Disclaimer - not a committer, so my opinion doesnt even matter to me ;) [1] I'm not arguing against IRC here. It provides real-time comms, while mail/news/forums allow responses to be delayed until sunup in your TZ. Robert Simmons wrote: What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it. Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication. --Robert - Original Message - From: Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta? On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote: It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the Jakarta site. checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;) -- Cheers, Peter Donald *-* | Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It | | just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship | | with. | | - Richard Cook| *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Privacy and Confidentiality Notice The information contained in this E-Mail message is intended only for the person or persons to whom it is addressed. Such information is confidential and privileged and no mistake in transmission is intended to waive or compromise such privilege. If you have received it in error, please destroy it and notify us on the telephone number printed above. If you do not receive complete and legible copies, please telephone us immediately. Any opinions expressed herein including attachments are those of the author only. i-documentsystems Ltd. does not accept responsibility for the accuracy or completeness of the information provided or for any changes to this Email, however made, after it was sent. (Please note that it is your responsibility to scan this message for viruses). -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
[Someone else just emailed this, but sending to show my agreement] There's that GMane thing that lets you view the mailing lists as a forum? Personally I've not found any forums as easy to use as a mailing list. Communication in a community is in three ways: 1) Multi-cast 2) Direct communication, 1 to 1 3) Specific broadcast to a select group Mailing lists are good at 1), via a list like this, they can do 2 via simple email and 3 via specific mailing lists. It's hard to run a thread across them though. A forum is worse. It can do 1 well. 3 can be done, though a bit of a pain. 2 usually relies on internal mail on the forum, or external links into your email. IRC is good for all three, but lacks another important aspect, persistence. I prefer the 'mud' communication, but they're analagous to irc I guess. IRC also lacks the concept of threading. This is descending into my pointless opinion on communication :) Hen On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Robert Simmons wrote: What I meant is on the main Jakarta site. I have used Jakarta for a while and never even knew about that address. Probably the reason no one uses it. Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication. --Robert - Original Message - From: Peter Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Jakarta General List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 15, 2003 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Forum Software for Jakarta? On Wed, 15 Jan 2003 20:26, Robert Simmons wrote: It would seem to me that the installation of a forum on the Jakarta site would dramatically improve communication and the ability of the users to collaborate on using and improving Jakarta software. PhpBB, for example, is free and can be downloaded from www.phpBB.com and offers many of the features users would find helpful. I would highly suggest this move for the Jakarta site. checkout nagoya.apache.org. It has a forum ... no one uses it ;) -- Cheers, Peter Donald *-* | Contrary to popular belief, UNIX is user-friendly. It | | just happens to be selective on who it makes friendship | | with. | | - Richard Cook| *-* -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
on 2003/1/15 3:12 AM, Robert Simmons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mailing lists are not as good as forums for communication. --Robert That is your opinion. They have worked well here since 1997. I hate the idea that I would have to go check a website to read discussions and I hate the text input fields on web browsers as an editor. Part of why I also hate wiki...same problem. I can have the website email me when there is an update, but then that defeats the purpose. -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Henri Yandell wrote: IRC is good for all three, but lacks another important aspect, persistence. IRC Persistence: http://irc.werken.com/channels/maven/ -Kurt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
Part of why I also hate wiki...same problem. I can have the website email me when there is an update, but then that defeats the purpose. Note the wiki isn't for that purpose or I'd agree with you. Its for creating documentation (something we are still lacking in). I hate it for the purpose of discussion, preferring mail lists for that, and the talking points summed up (I hate searching through 6 years of archive to find out why a particular decision was made)... Note that the wiki is also not for the pretty stuff. Once the wiki generates a page worth formalizing, it should be dumped into XML (IMHO) for convenient transform. I find forums really inconvienient for discussion. Heck mozilla annoys me enough (long story why I'm back on it)... No spell checker. (which is why I misspell everything lately) -Andy -jon -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Forum Software for Jakarta?
Note the wiki isn't for that purpose or I'd agree with you. Its for creating documentation (something we are still lacking in). I hate it for the purpose of discussion, preferring mail lists for that, and the talking points summed up (I hate searching through 6 years of archive to I'm a big fan of http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?ThreadMode, great for distilling discussion into document content since the refactoring is naturally iterative. find out why a particular decision was made)... Note that the wiki is also not for the pretty stuff. Once the wiki generates a page worth formalizing, it should be dumped into XML (IMHO) for convenient transform. Ugh, turning a succinct readable format like wiki markup into XML? What a shame. (insert plug for reStructuredText here) -- jt -- To unsubscribe, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
