move user lists to mail.html from mail2.html? [WAS Re: mail2.html - mail.html]
On Wednesday, July 23, 2003, at 02:15 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Thank you for the comment, Robert. TO tell the truth, my original motivation to arise this issue was concering to the upcoming newsletter. I published the final Jakarta Newsletter in early this month and I found I made some mistakes. Also, there was something which I got aware: 1 I've forgot to append the URL of Apache Ant. There might be someone who came to jakarta-general, not knowing that Ant had been separated and have own mailng lists. 2 I wrote: 'If you would like to comment further on any of the highlighted discussions then please do so on the appropriate list [4], [4] - http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html' However, at the same time I felt guilty about this .. thinking Oh, how user unfriendly I am! i've been thinking about this and i think that maybe there's a way to change the pages that will improving things for users whilst still preventing problems with people not reading the rules. this is really only a major problem for developer lists. maybe we could try moving the user lists to the bottom of the first page and then leave the link to the developer lists on the second page. maybe the extra space could be used to add some links that of interest for potential contributors. - robert - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:02:57 +0100 Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, I'm still dead against this, and likely to remain so until someone can explain to me why it would be better than what we currently have. 1. Current pages are user-*un*friendly: My proposal is user-friendly: *user* means future developer, who might devote to the jakarta activities and the ASF activities in the future. I can not find any good reasons to keep current pages unchanged, in other words. 2. Please see Andrew and Henri's comments. These implied the *reason* what you wanted, I think. What we have is (as far as I'm aware) the result of responding to the actions of people in respect of the mailing lists, and intended to reduce the amount of brain-dead misuse. I'd worrry that changing it would re-introduce problems. I am not sure whether all the subscribers have read the guideline completely and have respect to mailing lists. If they are wise enough and given that people had read mail.html page, http://jakarta.apache.org/site/micromail.html would not have dead linked pages * at all*, I think. (This page is now linked by site/mail.html, as you all can see. And .. sorry I do not use any mail clients/ servers created by MS, so I won't/can't apply any changes to this page) Also, I am not sure whether it would re-introduce problems. Aren't there any alternative method which fulfill these two? : 1. Keep User-Friendli-ness 2. Avoid Trouble I suggested various approaching methods in the past. Probably, there might be much *better* way. If there is an issue with lists being hard to find, or instructions unclear lets hear it. *chicken* and *egg*. Who felt hardness to find *appropriate list* won't come to this list and can not comment to your line. You'll not be able to hear their voices. Also, it takes at least 10-30 seconds to find the *appropriate* lists out even though using *Ctrl+F* at current site/mail2.html. What would happen after directly, simply indicating the *appropriate* lists??? (again) e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#general -- I think the policy of Apache (Jakarta) might have had A Patchy spirits, providing experimental space for all the people. There are no reason for letting the beginners feel unease, enforce them to wander off and get lost in the jakarta desert. Why not adopting Easy to entry: Learn more here approaching method?? I am trying to reduce the user-*un*friendli-ness from jakarta gradually... Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mail2.html - mail.html
Hi Tetsuya, What is wrong with the pages as they are? There are thousands of people who have subscribed to the lists using the current method, and luckily there are not too many misdirected posts. Furthermore, a search for jakarta mailing lists http://www.google.com/search?q=jakarta+mail+archivessourceid=mozilla-search start=0start=0 takes you straight to mail2.html. I still fail to see the problem -- it is good to make future posters go through a little extra effort. There are many important issues to tackle, please don't waste your time with this one. (Where is Jon Stevens when you need him?) Un saludo, Alex.
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
jakarta came round to having two pages for mail subscriptions after having years of regular problems with people joining the lists who had no idea about how to behave. the pages are user unfriendly but the old solution (ie publically and vocally humiliating posters on list) was worse (since it discouraged many lurkers with valuable opinions from speaking out for fear of being shot down in flames). i don't think that reading through a page of instructions is too much to ask for the benefit of the community not having to waste time and energy shooting down ignorant and disruptive posters. one proof that this policy works is that the last occasion that i can remember this being necessary was with somebody who'd subscribed via news. i would support a move of the other information on the deeper page (about the archives, for example) to a better location. i'd also be happy to support some alternative system (maybe using ezmlm) which was equally effective. i'd also support any sub-project who was happy about being listed on the front page being moved there. - robert On Tuesday, July 22, 2003, at 10:50 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 20:02:57 +0100 Danny Angus [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, I'm still dead against this, and likely to remain so until someone can explain to me why it would be better than what we currently have. 1. Current pages are user-*un*friendly: My proposal is user-friendly: *user* means future developer, who might devote to the jakarta activities and the ASF activities in the future. I can not find any good reasons to keep current pages unchanged, in other words. 2. Please see Andrew and Henri's comments. These implied the *reason* what you wanted, I think. What we have is (as far as I'm aware) the result of responding to the actions of people in respect of the mailing lists, and intended to reduce the amount of brain-dead misuse. I'd worrry that changing it would re-introduce problems. I am not sure whether all the subscribers have read the guideline completely and have respect to mailing lists. If they are wise enough and given that people had read mail.html page, http://jakarta.apache.org/site/micromail.html would not have dead linked pages * at all*, I think. (This page is now linked by site/mail.html, as you all can see. And .. sorry I do not use any mail clients/ servers created by MS, so I won't/can't apply any changes to this page) Also, I am not sure whether it would re-introduce problems. Aren't there any alternative method which fulfill these two? : 1. Keep User-Friendli-ness 2. Avoid Trouble I suggested various approaching methods in the past. Probably, there might be much *better* way. If there is an issue with lists being hard to find, or instructions unclear lets hear it. *chicken* and *egg*. Who felt hardness to find *appropriate list* won't come to this list and can not comment to your line. You'll not be able to hear their voices. Also, it takes at least 10-30 seconds to find the *appropriate* lists out even though using *Ctrl+F* at current site/mail2.html. What would happen after directly, simply indicating the *appropriate* lists??? (again) e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#general -- I think the policy of Apache (Jakarta) might have had A Patchy spirits, providing experimental space for all the people. There are no reason for letting the beginners feel unease, enforce them to wander off and get lost in the jakarta desert. Why not adopting Easy to entry: Learn more here approaching method?? I am trying to reduce the user-*un*friendli-ness from jakarta gradually.. . Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Michael Davey wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: No, my original intention was derived from just this simple question: Why doesn't each subprojects' left-side navi point to the *appropriate* section in mail2.html? I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, but I think Like Danny, I still am. I am coming round to Tetsuya's way of thinking. Perhaps ezmlm could be changed so that the confirm subscription and welcome email messages start with some text similar to that used on the mail.html page. I'm sure it could. But people would completely ignore that text. That's exactly the point of having mail and mail2 separated as they are. Additionally, the -dev lists could warn that -user should be used for questions including developer questions, where appropriate. Some Apache lists already do one or both of these, but many don't do either. You mean the lists themselves, or the people on them? The struts-dev list gets a fair number of messages that should have been sent to struts-user instead, and it's really pretty annoying. The more we can do to get people to use the right list in the first place, the better. Hopefully few novices will be inclined to post to a list without first subscribing They may subscribe, but they are also likely to ignore any instructions they are given, even if those instructions are repeated at the end of every message to the list. How many times have you seen unsubscribe messages on lists whose message footers include the instructions? (I know that many here do post to lists to which they aren't subscribed, which is fine as they aren't new to the community, so they know what to do and what not to do). In any case, I don't think we can protect ourselves completely from fools ;) Sad but true. ;-( -- Martin Cooper -- Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 06:19 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: Hi all, I am wondering how it might be if deleting jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html and putting all the contents to jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html All the Apache TLPs (Top Level Projects) do not separate the mail list explanation pages like jakarta, AFAICS. cf. http://ant.apache.org/mail.html http://httpd.apache.org/lists.html I think that each subprojects can indicate the direct/appropriate subscribe/unscribe section from each subprojects' pages. (Now: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat future: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) Any thoughts? I think the motivation is to force people to read the first page before they get to the second. geir -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203-247-1713(m) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 06:21:13 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that each subprojects can indicate the direct/appropriate subscribe/unscribe section from each subprojects' pages. (Now: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat future: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) Any thoughts? I think the motivation is to force people to read the first page before they get to the second. Yes, I think so. However, there are many many mailing list in mail2.html and we did not point out the *appropriate* mail list in the past, it seems. (We often use this phrase, subscribe to the *appropriate* lists ... not user-friendly phrase...) Promoting to point out directly the *appropriate* mail lists (e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat or http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) might be better than now, I think. If httpd, ant or whatever in apache.org had failed to let people read the MailList *guideline*, I am willing to withdraw my proposal. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mail2.html - mail.html
I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. d. -Original Message- From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 July 2003 11:20 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mail2.html - mail.html Hi all, I am wondering how it might be if deleting jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html and putting all the contents to jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html All the Apache TLPs (Top Level Projects) do not separate the mail list explanation pages like jakarta, AFAICS. cf. http://ant.apache.org/mail.html http://httpd.apache.org/lists.html I think that each subprojects can indicate the direct/appropriate subscribe/unscribe section from each subprojects' pages. (Now: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat future: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) Any thoughts? -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:19 AM, Danny Angus wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) +1 d. -Original Message- From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 July 2003 11:20 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mail2.html - mail.html Hi all, I am wondering how it might be if deleting jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html and putting all the contents to jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html All the Apache TLPs (Top Level Projects) do not separate the mail list explanation pages like jakarta, AFAICS. cf. http://ant.apache.org/mail.html http://httpd.apache.org/lists.html I think that each subprojects can indicate the direct/appropriate subscribe/unscribe section from each subprojects' pages. (Now: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat future: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) Any thoughts? -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203-247-1713(m) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) I know this and the purpose. Alternatively, e.g.-site/mail.html GUIDELINE(#guideline) (brief description) . Tomcat User List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline(jump to #guideline) Dev List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline .. This might be enough, I think. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
The nice thing about the current approach is that you can't get to see the links w/o having to have read enough of the first page to understand that you have to click through to the next page. Otherwise, people will just skip down until they find what they want and then have missed what is some good prelim info for our community. It's not much of a burden on people, as once you've done it, you just know to skip to bottom and go to the mail for new lists... geir On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) I know this and the purpose. Alternatively, e.g.-site/mail.html GUIDELINE(#guideline) (brief description) . Tomcat User List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline(jump to #guideline) Dev List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline .. This might be enough, I think. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Geir Magnusson Jr 203-956-2604(w) Adeptra, Inc. 203-434-2093(m) [EMAIL PROTECTED] 203-247-1713(m) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
Presently they give up reading it and email me personally. -Andy On 7/20/03 11:57 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The nice thing about the current approach is that you can't get to see the links w/o having to have read enough of the first page to understand that you have to click through to the next page. Otherwise, people will just skip down until they find what they want and then have missed what is some good prelim info for our community. It's not much of a burden on people, as once you've done it, you just know to skip to bottom and go to the mail for new lists... geir On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) I know this and the purpose. Alternatively, e.g.-site/mail.html GUIDELINE(#guideline) (brief description) . Tomcat User List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline(jump to #guideline) Dev List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline .. This might be enough, I think. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Andrew C. Oliver http://www.superlinksoftware.com/poi.jsp Custom enhancements and Commercial Implementation for Jakarta POI http://jakarta.apache.org/poi For Java and Excel, Got POI? - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mail2.html - mail.html
That's all very well and good. But why do I have to read the rules to go look at the archives? That frustrates me every time I want to search the archives. Hen On Sun, 20 Jul 2003, Danny Angus wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. d. -Original Message- From: Tetsuya Kitahata [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 July 2003 11:20 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: mail2.html - mail.html Hi all, I am wondering how it might be if deleting jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html and putting all the contents to jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html All the Apache TLPs (Top Level Projects) do not separate the mail list explanation pages like jakarta, AFAICS. cf. http://ant.apache.org/mail.html http://httpd.apache.org/lists.html I think that each subprojects can indicate the direct/appropriate subscribe/unscribe section from each subprojects' pages. (Now: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#tomcat future: e.g. http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html#tomcat) Any thoughts? -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:57:10 -0400 (Subject: Re: mail2.html - mail.html) Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The nice thing about the current approach is that you can't get to see the links w/o having to have read enough of the first page to understand that you have to click through to the next page. Otherwise, people will just skip down until they find what they want and then have missed what is some good prelim info for our community. It's not much of a burden on people, as once you've done it, you just know to skip to bottom and go to the mail for new lists... geir No, my original intention was derived from just this simple question: Why doesn't each subprojects' left-side navi point to the *appropriate* section in mail2.html? For example, if Jakarta-Poi's website have the direct link (http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail2.html#poi) in its' left side navigator, people will not wander the mail.html/mail2.html and be satisfied surely. Next, in this situation, I thought the current mail.html is meaningless, so why not conjoin mail.html and mail2.html? (Also, please see the sample below) For me, subscribe/unsubscribe is very easy, because I remember *-subscribe*/*-unsubscribe* suffix :D However, there are many people who can not find the way to unsubscribe each mailing lists :D, even though each mails has *appripriate* mail trailer (signature). Things might be better to become simpler. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) On Sunday, July 20, 2003, at 11:48 AM, Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 11:33:20 -0400 Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I believe the idea is to make people read the rules first, I wouldn't advise changing it unless you have a good reason to, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Yes, that's what i was trying to hint at :) I know this and the purpose. Alternatively, e.g.-site/mail.html GUIDELINE(#guideline) (brief description) . Tomcat User List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline(jump to #guideline) Dev List SubscribeUnsubscribe ArchiveGuideline .. This might be enough, I think. Sincerely, -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: No, my original intention was derived from just this simple question: Why doesn't each subprojects' left-side navi point to the *appropriate* section in mail2.html? I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, but I think I am coming round to Tetsuya's way of thinking. Perhaps ezmlm could be changed so that the confirm subscription and welcome email messages start with some text similar to that used on the mail.html page. Additionally, the -dev lists could warn that -user should be used for questions including developer questions, where appropriate. Some Apache lists already do one or both of these, but many don't do either. Hopefully few novices will be inclined to post to a list without first subscribing (I know that many here do post to lists to which they aren't subscribed, which is fine as they aren't new to the community, so they know what to do and what not to do). In any case, I don't think we can protect ourselves completely from fools ;) -- Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: mail2.html - mail.html
I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, I'm still dead against this, and likely to remain so until someone can explain to me why it would be better than what we currently have. What we have is (as far as I'm aware) the result of responding to the actions of people in respect of the mailing lists, and intended to reduce the amount of brain-dead misuse. I'd worrry that changing it would re-introduce problems. If there is an issue with lists being hard to find, or instructions unclear lets hear it. d. but I think I am coming round to Tetsuya's way of thinking. Perhaps ezmlm could be changed so that the confirm subscription and welcome email messages start with some text similar to that used on the mail.html page. Additionally, the -dev lists could warn that -user should be used for questions including developer questions, where appropriate. Some Apache lists already do one or both of these, but many don't do either. Hopefully few novices will be inclined to post to a list without first subscribing (I know that many here do post to lists to which they aren't subscribed, which is fine as they aren't new to the community, so they know what to do and what not to do). In any case, I don't think we can protect ourselves completely from fools ;) -- Michael - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: mail2.html - mail.html
On Sun, 20 Jul 2003 18:48:16 +0100 (Subject: Re: mail2.html - mail.html) Michael Davey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tetsuya Kitahata wrote: No, my original intention was derived from just this simple question: Why doesn't each subprojects' left-side navi point to the *appropriate* section in mail2.html? I was dead against this when Tetsuya first raised the issue, but I think I am coming round to Tetsuya's way of thinking. Perhaps ezmlm could be changed so that the confirm subscription and welcome email messages start with some text similar to that used on the mail.html page. Additionally, the -dev lists could warn that -user should be used for questions including developer questions, where appropriate. Some Apache lists already do one or both of these, but many don't do either. Thank you. I think so. If possible, additional mail trailer (footer) might be preferable. These below are *sample* of the mail (message) trailers. Any comments, improvements are welcomed :D e.g. Jakarta-General - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Apache Jakarta Website http://jakarta.apache.org/ e.g. Jakarta-Tomcat-Dev - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mailing List Guidelines :http://jakarta.apache.org/site/mail.html e.g. Jakarta-Tomcat-User - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jakarta Tomcat Website http://jakarta.apache.org/tomcat/ In any case, I don't think we can protect ourselves completely from fools ;) Ditto :D -- Tetsuya ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
