Re: [gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Kumba wrote: > > So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the > flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the > IAU. Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and > others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you > know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list > ourselves. > > > Anyways, thoughts? > > > --Kumba > I like the idea. - -- Luis F. Araujo "araujo at gentoo.org" Gentoo Linux -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGZ6p3aTNpke9pJcURAkiEAJ0YK3dO0h4182ZHLN91NTK8YiKzBACfbdji XYxB8IyKtqcvjMA+jIJxp3Q= =X3lK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] [RFC]: gentoo-politics ML
So I'm told debian has one of these types of MLs, probably where the flames burn bright enough to have earned a star designation from the IAU. Given what's been going on lately, and with calls from myself and others (i.e., mcummings) to get back on track and actually like, you know, develop something, I think it's high time we create this list ourselves. What goes on it?, why the flames of course. Every last ember, hot coal, glowing developers, and any kittens having reached critical mass. We leave the new developer introductions on -dev, but any developer leaving and wanting to say goodbye, should consider posting their bit on -politics, because that's lately been the reason for leaving. Anything hot button, hot topic, divisive, non-development, etc. Especially license debates. Ohhh yes, the license debates definitely belong here. This'll probably kill -dev off completely, unless we start developing again. But hey, I for once wouldn't mind a quiet gentoo-dev folder in my thunderbird client. So who's up for it? We can even divide ourselves into Red Devs and Blue Devs! Blue Devs will, of course, be liberal, very energy conservative (i.e., no Octanes for you guys!), Pro-Choice (Portage or Paludis or Pkgcore, it's a dev's right to choose!), and most importantly, they'll favour any legislation from the Council that bans devs from smoking. You know, the kind of smoldering that happens before a dev bursts into flames? And the Red Devs? Well, they'll be on the other side of the fence. They'll blow the electric bill like the space shuttle burns fuel. They'll also be Anti-Portage (it's Paludis/Pkgcore or else). And the flames? We're talking Firebats from StarCraft here. Need a light? See, this is fun already! We can hold debates where one side rips the other, conventions where the egos of one side get inflated bigger than the Hindenburg (and lots of confetti is thrown about), And maybe even a few scandals, like discovering one die-hard Blue Dev secretly runs a 8-way Opteron system with a 15-disk RAID6 array and 5 CRT monitors, or something. We will have to fill a few positions, though. We'll need a flip-flopper for starters (the one dev who randomly changes his opinion when cornered). We'll also need a dev who skipped the Freenode War a year or two ago (when Bantown attacked, and they ran away screaming because of the netsplits and Squits and lilo impersonators). And maybe a dev who secretly dabbles in another OSlike Wind...err, Ubuntu! So anyways, I'm all for this list, humour aside. It's blatantly obvious people need a place to vent at times, and I think that by separating the politics from the technical discussion, it might help in some way. Yes, it'll also be the source of many problems too. I can't envision what they might be, but I know they'd exist. Anyways, thoughts? --Kumba -- Gentoo/MIPS Team Lead "Such is oft the course of deeds that move the wheels of the world: small hands do them because they must, while the eyes of the great are elsewhere." --Elrond -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Dawid Węgliński wrote: > Dnia 06-06-2007, śro o godzinie 18:32 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > napisał(a): > > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just > > > > because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. > > > > > > I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the > > > response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? > > > > What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway > > guys caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the > > thread would have died out rather quickly. > > The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the > > fact, that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if > > they were calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. > > Why to stop the topic? IMO it *is* important, and we should make a > correct decision. You blame beejey. Ok, blame him about what he said, > but paradoxically he uncovered that whole mess, that noone was talking > about before. > > ++ for I-will-reply-anyway guys I admit that my wording is not good here, please let me rephrase it: Instead of "thread would have died out rather quickly" read it as "the flame-war part of the thread would have died out rather quickly" What I tried to stress with my replies is, that there is no censorship, in contrast to a forced slow-down. Imagine you are angry, but may only say one sentence per hour. A verbal fight should be harder, than it is in the world as we know it. My own interpretation of what Roy wanted is, that he knew personal "Please calm down everyone"-mails don't help, and therefore he wanted to force people to do so, by delaying the thread for 24 hours. This is not censoring, to my eyes, rather call it "de-escalation" or whatever you like best. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
On Thu, 2007-06-07 at 01:08 +0100, George Prowse wrote: > from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml Look at the Council logs from the CoC being approved and the ones since. We asked for real guidelines so we could specifically avoid this sort of problem from happening. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Chris Gianelloni wrote: On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 19:16 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Wulf C. Krueger wrote: I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's difficult to judge. The guideline, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to ban people who dont abide by the time-outs. What guideline? Where is it? When was it approved by the Council, like we had said that proctors policy would need to be? from http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/coc.xml Consequences Disciplinary action will be up to the descretion of the proctors. What is a proctor? A proctor is an official charged with the duty of maintaining good order. If discplinary measures are taken and the affected person wishes to appeal, appeals should be addressed to the Gentoo Council via email at [EMAIL PROTECTED] To prevent conflicts of interest, Council members may not perform the duties of a proctor. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 13:14 -0500, Steev Klimaszewski wrote: > Great job Chris, way to stick it to them. Yes. It absolutely *is* a great job that I voiced my opinion in a manner that I thought was most beneficial for Gentoo. Shame on me for ever thinking about what might be best for Gentoo. Shame on me! I mean, we should never speak up when we think someone in authority is doing wrong. Yeah, I really stabbed someone in the back by vocalizing my dissenting opinion, publicly, no less. I would say that I am sorry that certain proctors took my observations of the group as a whole personally, but I am not. I didn't mean it to be personal, and am not going to waste my time holding people's hands when their feelings get hurt because I expressed my opinion. Sorry, but it just isn't going to happen. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 14:08 -0300, Mauricio Lima Pilla wrote: > Good luck for the remaining proctors, they will need as they aparently can't > even expect any support from council members. There's a *BIG* difference between support and blind support. Nobody ever promised the proctors blind support. -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 19:16 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Wulf C. Krueger wrote: > > I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear > > guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and > > what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's > > difficult to judge. > The guideline, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to ban people who > dont > abide by the time-outs. What guideline? Where is it? When was it approved by the Council, like we had said that proctors policy would need to be? -- Chris Gianelloni Release Engineering Strategic Lead Alpha/AMD64/x86 Architecture Teams Games Developer/Council Member/Foundation Trustee Gentoo Foundation signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 18:10 +0200, Wulf C. Krueger wrote: > On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote: > [Proctor system] > > a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as > > has been suggested? > > Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. As much as I was a part of the creation of the proctors, I agree. > I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear > guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and > what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's > difficult to judge. Well, they've been asked to write guidelines for Council approval, as well as changes to the Code of Conduct. Neither of which have been done. As it stands now, there are no publicly available guidelines that I am aware of for the proctors. > Furthermore, where do we need them? The Forums are moderated by an, IMHO, > excellent team. IRC is more or less self-moderated. > That basically leaves the mailinglists and among those, the only one that > *might* arguably need supervision could be -dev. One thing I have started to really wonder about is this. Why do we need the -dev mailing list? How much real "development" (or even discussion about it) happens on the mailing list? Most of the traffic on this list is political in nature and simply doesn't belong on this list. Since we've pretty much shown over the past couple years that the development list isn't being used properly, why have it? > Do we really need moderation on the list? Or could we just literally > moderate ourselves instead? Could we try and succeed to be just ignore > some flames instead of adding oil to the fire? Do we really need the list? We tried self-moderation and it simply didn't work. We know it won't work. There's no point in trying again. The situation isn't likely to change. I mean no disrespect to people's age, but I think part of the problem why we have such a hard time, collectively, acting like adults is we aren't adults. A very good number of our developers are in the high school/college age range. This means their life experience isn't as high as a more seasoned adult. They have no real experiences dealing with adults in adult situations. They're simply used to how things are done with people their age. It isn't their fault, it is just simply a lack of life experience. We simply cannot reasonably expect everyone to act like a level-headed thirty year old computer professional. I have heard people say that our lack of being paid developers compounds this, as we have people from all walks of life. I don't think that I believe that, but I do know that paid developers tend to be older and more professional. After all, if they constantly acted like a tool, they'd be fired. > And even if we can't: We still have DevRel we can complain to. Yes, DevRel > is for inter-developer conflicts but let's look back in the archives a > bit - do we really need more than that? Most conflicts arise between > active developers and, well, one active retired-dev. Developer Relations has gone through a few good spots intermixed with lots of failures. They keep improving, but the trust level many developers have with Developer Relations isn't very good. With the recent changes within the group, we might see improvement here, and I think that we will. I don't mean this to sound like I am throwing devrel under the bus or anything. I am not. I know that those guys work hard. However, good intentions and hard work don't necessarily make up for failing to attain goals. Part of the problem has been the fear that Developer Relations has rightly had in using their powers. I have always felt that a properly-running distribution should have the need for a group whose purpose is to resolve internal conflict. We will always need recruiters, but the existence of a group just to make the 300 or so of us play nice together shows that our culture is broken. > Do we really need an entire team for dealing with one former dev in case > he goes too far? Or could we just agree to ignore him if he again behaves > inappropriately (or what some of us *feel* might be inappropriate)? Developer Relations does a bunch more than just deal with problems with Gentoo developers and Ciaran. If it really were just Ciaran that was the cause (or catalyst) of all of our problems, it could be solved very simply. It isn't. Developers simply aren't going to agree all the time. No matter what, there will end up being some group responsible for trying to resolve interpersonal issues. In companies, that would be the Human Resources department. When you think of devrel more as an HR department, you realize there's more to it than dealing with problems. After all, Developer Relations does all the recruiting work. > When I first read the CoC I had just read about the entire Ciaran-incident > on the respective bugs, Forums, mailinglists, blogs and ma
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Anders Hellgren wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > >> On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 >> Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you >>> could keep your fucking trap shut? >> >> If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by >> someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making > > NeddySeagoon has a history of abusing authority? Wow... > > /Anders Ciaran, I know how much you like the forums team, but as Anders has pointed, you're stretching too far by accusing Roy of abusing authority. With all the due respect I have for the other forums team members, Roy is probably the most considerate, polite and helpful individual I've ever met online. He's currently the top poster in the forums and although I can't claim to have read all his posts, I have read quite a few and I've never seen any abuse of power by him. Everyone else, I'm sorry to add one more mail to this thread, but I couldn't remain silent about this accusation. - -- Regards, Jorge Vicetto (jmbsvicetto) - jmbsvicetto at gentoo dot org Gentoo- forums / Userrel -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZzXwcAWygvVEyAIRAnMlAJ0SlTTuizulwXFzU19gW25Oa1QF+QCfSzqZ 9/fxa4femkbVnYiwVVWTy7U= =5faK -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Galevsky wrote: But I do not understand why 7 devs -even elected by the others- could make decisions on other projects and are described as the group in charge of the 'global issues and policies'. The logic is that most organizations are overseen by a board of directors. This system is used in most corporations worldwide, most non-profits, and to some degree most governments. The reason is simple - it generally works fairly well, although this is obviously limited by the makeup of the overall organization. The concept is that the council provides oversight and high-level guidance. If necessary they can step in and micromanage when necessary, but in theory they should be delegating their power whenever possible. The proctors are a body to which the council delegated day-to-day responsibility for enforcing the code of conduct. In most companies if the head of an organization (who reports to the board of directors) makes a decision that a good chunk of the board disagrees with, the board does NOTHING in public. At least not without careful thought. Instead the board just sits down in private with the CEO/president/secretary/whatever and decides what to do about the disagreement. This might ultimately lead to the appointment of a new CEO/president/secretary/whatever - usually without a whole lot of fanfare. The reason for this is that the organization speaks with one voice at all times. The board is in ultimate control, but they don't usually feel the need to step into the limelight. What gentoo needs is a little more patience. If somebody says/does something you disagree with, try talking to them in private about it. If necessary try talking to an appropriate moderator in private. And don't expect a huge change within 8 hours And think about the good of the whole organization, even if you don't agree with every person who is in charge. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Dnia 06-06-2007, śro o godzinie 18:32 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisał(a): > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just > > > because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. > > > > I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the > > response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? > > What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway guys > caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the thread > would have died out rather quickly. > The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the fact, > that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if they were > calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. Why to stop the topic? IMO it *is* important, and we should make a correct decision. You blame beejey. Ok, blame him about what he said, but paradoxically he uncovered that whole mess, that noone was talking about before. ++ for I-will-reply-anyway guys -- ,-. | Dawid Węgliński | | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | cla @ irc.freenode.net | | GPG: 295E72D9 | `-' signature.asc Description: To jest część listu podpisana cyfrowo
[gentoo-dev] Book recommendation: "producing open source software" (Chapter 6: "Communications")
Hi everyone I received a book yesterday with the title "producing open source software", written by Karl Fogel. It's also available online for free: http://producingoss.com/ While reading through the latest messages here I thought that I should recommend that book (especially chapter 6) to you. It will probably take a half an our to read that chapter, but if everyone of us would only follow half of what's written there, we could spend much more time having fun (aka make a good distro even better :-). Cheers, Tiziano signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Wulf C. Krueger wrote: On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote: [Proctor system] a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. Nor do I. Every thread that has gone bad in the last 2 years has been because of the same people. Ban them from -dev and there is no need for the proctors. If they weren't banned from the forums as well then they could have been directed there. It just goes to show how positive their influence on Gentoo is. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] New global use flag, xulrunner
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Raúl Porcel wrote: > Agreed from mozilla. > > firefox and seamonkey already have the global use-flag Is there any guideline from mozilla team about what to do when there are more than one of these flags (firefox/seamonkey/xulrunner) supported by package AND enabled by user? Some of those local flag descriptions suggest that USE="firefox xulrunner" results in using xulrunner (so it has higher priority). So is that recommended, and how about seamonkey? - -- Vlastimil Babka (Caster) Gentoo/Java -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZwt/tbrAj05h3oQRAsJkAJ99aXhbnYoqdtKuud77ZXcPS5MZMwCeNLuu N9/sEqDf7P3/f9v7CGxfy/0= =/OQC -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Grant Goodyear wrote: > > So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm > discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? > > Well reasoned thoughts and opinions welcome. > > -g2boojum- Benjamin Judas has probably been walking on air these past 2 days because his troll worked so easily. Everyone here has intimate knowledge of the ways in which mailing-lists/forums/irc work, so why do people still insist on feeding the trolls? Let the bastards starve and they will go away. It's Internet #101 folks - Don't be a sucker by feeding the trolls. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29 /me goes back to reading eclasses. - -- Jeffrey Gardner Gentoo Developer Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23 hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZwyxiR2KxEpdjyMRAinaAJ9T31pcOHLbnaLIW20Dv8VlVpPSwgCdG1ti UWDrNG1h62wLYquQlRyEVY8= =OLN7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] To all the contributors of the current flame thread
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 13:15:45 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > No can do, its recess time in a few minutes, and then after that, its > naptime! Naptime doesn't sound that bad idea. Or a long good sleep. - Samuli Suominen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
> drawn in flames. drown, please excuse my spelling. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Josh Sled wrote: > I find it disappointing (maybe "telling", if one is less charitable) that > the Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the > message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd > imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public > admonishment and warning. I feel like it was correct to adress the most pressing issue at first: An arising flame war, which, at the time, was still manageable. The actions which followed, namely that certain people did not abide by the 24-hour-delay, might well have made a planned warning for Benjamin Judas drawn in flames. Note I neither have the insight to black up my thesis, nor to proof it wrong. I just wanted to show there might well be another side, Josh maybe didnt know of. (By which, in turn, I dont want to claim he hasnt enough insight or whater.) -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] gnupg2 only vs gnupg-1 & gnupg-2
On Sun, 2007-05-27 at 21:02 +0100, Graham Murray wrote: > Ulrich Mueller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > I would also strongly favor if both gnupg-1 and gnupg-2 could be kept > > in different slots. > > And maybe an eselect (or similar) to select whether external programs > which call use gpg-1 or gpg-2. That's the beauty of both upstream design and reality. THERE IS NO NEED FOR ESELECT Apps will either use and/or be developed for gnupg-1 or gnupg-2. They are different binaries, versioned by upstream. Have different features and functionality. Since gnupg-2 is not a full replacement or supports all of gnupg-1's features. Think gtk vs gtk2 or apache vs apache2. We quite commonly have two versions of something in tree during the transition period. Why that is unacceptable here is beyond me. Not to mention again, we are limiting choice, and forcing one or the other. Which is not a complete solution, and makes our offerings less than all other mainstream distros. -- William L. Thomson Jr. Gentoo/Java signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Josh Sled wrote: > Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >> got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were >> not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to >> be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors >> to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there > > I find it disappointing (maybe "telling", if one is less charitable) that the > Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the > message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd > imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public > admonishment and warning. > The proctors have no power now, thanks to Chris publicly stabbing them in the back after they tried to assert some of their powers - they requested that no one respond to the thread for 24 hours, and people couldn't respect that simple request - and now with what Chris said, it just fuels the flames due to Council "backing" them - as Ciaran has already asserted in a mail earlier in the thread. Great job Chris, way to stick it to them. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZvmA1c+EtXTHkJcRAhgZAJ92BOAq8cd+Tp1cxXSUC8sNvw5eUwCfeOeF Kh4cZO7lgVAleBC5s20zZmY= =0PzG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] To all the contributors of the current flame thread
Hello and welcome to my e-mail, At this time I would like to encourage you to point your web browser to http://bugs.gentoo.org and start fixing some bugs. If you have the time and energy to argue, you have the time and energy to fix some bugs. Stop acting like you're in kindergarten and start acting like Gentoo *Developers* and develop. -- Doug Goldstein -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making NeddySeagoon has a history of abusing authority? Wow... /Anders -- Anders Hellgren (kallamej) Gentoo Forums Administrator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were > not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to > be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors > to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there I find it disappointing (maybe "telling", if one is less charitable) that the Proctors never censured the original poster for either the tone of the message, nor the personal invective it contained, and still haven't. I'd imagine clear violations of the CoC to result in at least a public admonishment and warning. -- ...jsled http://asynchronous.org/ - a=jsled; b=asynchronous.org; echo [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpGFkGVXVXrs.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 07:20:18 PM Josh Saddler wrote: > Wulf C. Krueger wrote: > > IRC is more or less self-moderated. > I'd have to disagree, given the pure insanity and horsepiss the last 48 > hours have been. Clearly, we can't keep ourselves in line. Well, yes, there are exceptions from the general rule, of course. We're still here, though, and will still be in spite of the "phenomena" you describe. > > Do we really need moderation on the list? Or could we just literally > > moderate ourselves instead? Could we try and succeed to be just > > ignore some flames instead of adding oil to the fire? > This doesn't seem possible. We don't seem to be able to moderate > ourselves because it doesn't look like we have any authoritative > figures...or people we listen to. Not often enough to make the > slightest bit of difference, anyway. We shouldn't really need authoritative figures. We've left kindergarden at least a few years ago. If people can't moderate themselves, the rest of us who can should probably just ignore them completely. The trolls *will* give up then rather sooner than later. Believe me, I've seen this over the course of almost 20 years now in many communities I've been a part of and all of these survived quite a few more disgruntled former or even current members. A thicker skin and letting things rest for a while really cools down one's temper. :-) Best regards, Wulf pgpia85b50hYF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Mike Doty wrote: > Perhaps you should go take a long walk off a short pier. > [snip] > Oh, I'm so hurt. You think I'm a hypocrite. Man, what will I ever do? > Newsflash, I know I'm a hypocrite, which is a lot better than the > childish passive-aggressive asshole you are. Mike, Please. You are counsel. Act like it. Stay civil. No matter what. Marijn -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZvJ3p/VmCx0OL2wRApAwAJ9NIyLC65mFm+ugs7FUeRgKQC2g3gCgmAN7 h0FAZ9/Eequ/zritPXNFWOk= =pg/m -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:47AM -0500, Grant Goodyear wrote: > > So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm > > discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors > > clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things > > got out of hand. I whole-heartedly agree with this. It is probably safe to assume that everyone would like Gentoo to find a system that works to prevent and/or put out flames. In the process of figuring out the proper way, we are bound to make mistakes. We can't expect ourselves to come up with a complete and perfect plan in advance and live happily ever after. Why not just assume a mistake was made when you don't agree with something like this and then either wait for the specified period or go to the proctors mailing list to explain how you think it could have been better handled? Why would an action by the proctors like this one make you want to quit Gentoo altogether? Suppose that after discussion the proctors would agree with you that it should have been handled differently and that they made a mistake, would that have had a lasting effect on your motivation? I can't imagine it would have. On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 06:06:14PM +0200, Marien Zwart wrote: > People really need to make up their mind about what the -dev ml *is*. > If the proctors are not supposed to keep the discussions there mostly > focused on technical matters and keep people from attacking each other > (I quote again: "Clean the sand out of your pee-hole..."? does that > really belong on a technical list like this?) then that should be made > a lot more obvious than it currently is. I agree that the proctors should just use their best insight to determine if something is ok for a technical list. This will inevitably mean that sometimes some posts will be incorrectly tagged as over the line, but the worst that will do is to ruin a joke. Of course you'll be annoyed that your joke was misunderstood, but for the good of the list just suck it up and move along. It will not prevent this list from fulfilling its purpose of being a place to discuss technical issues, which is the most important thing if you ask me. Regards, Maurice. -- Maurice van der Pot Gentoo Linux Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org Creator of BiteMe! [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.kfk4ever.com pgppRf0B0qUew.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Hi all, I am not a dev but a Gentoo-addicted user that would be interested in getting involved. So I have no more situation awareness than the website and this ML brought to me. But I have 2 cents I want to share peacefully. First, I am wondering about the exact role of what is known to be: "The elected Gentoo Council decides on global issues and policies that affect multiple projects in Gentoo. It also serves as an appeal court for disciplinary decisions." Many questions come up. How much powerful it is ? Why the council get both a decisional role and a proctor one ? Why do the community of dev needs such a council ? Well, even if I don't have the answers, what I know is there is a need to explain, describe, and provide clear information about this to the whole world. Neither http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/index.xml nor http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0039.html provides enough information. Why it is a need ? Because lots of people want to know where they are. To keep on lack of communication, I would like to share one or two suggestions. The glep page http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/glep/glep-0039.html lists some issues about the TLPs... and I come to that point: I don't know how the dev teams manage their projects, deal with planning, call for new blood and so on... since I just can have an external view, but it is possible to know why there is no public information about Gentoo and its packages/projects/needs/delays/status-of-whatever-that-needs-a-status ? Right, there is an Online Package Database good. But definitely insufficient. Can't we have a kind of https://savannah.gnu.org/ for Gentoo ? A web application providing information like status of packages, needs of dev, planned delivery dates, delays, links to bugs, plus info on projects, stand-alone tasks, with related decisions of the council and so on. What for ? just to have a better view of Gentoo as a whole. The users could better know what is going on, how previous issues turned out and many more info. The dev too, plus maybe extra info that are not public. Because when I see email on this ML like "package johndoe requires new dev", I think wtf this request is not shared on a public location. When I also read the meeting logs of the council, I am wondering about the fact that you need to be member of the council to have a clear global view of the situation. But I can't see why normal user and dev could not have it. So, what's about the council ? A band of proctors, moderating the ML ? Or a powerful and decisional group that leads Gentoo to the directions these 7 devs choose, due to the global overview that only them have ? Why not providing technical solutions to allow the whole dev community to make choices, open new projects, closing others, and providing these info to the users ? What could be the council in such a situation ? I think we need such a council to handle TLPs for example. The council could vote a list of TLPs, and take special care of them, putting high priority (e.g. to make sure that the 2007.0 release project doest not lack devs ), providing official news, and so on. Maybe a so big community of devs needs a secretary, some entity that embodies the executive power, like in most of the democratic regimes. But all the devs could be free to start project, join a dev team or an existing project the way they want... as long as they respect the CoC. For the TLPs, a minimum activity can be required, and the dev responsible for the package/project can take decision to bring solutions together, but not the proctors in their own since the project manager know the devs working in his team and all the related issues. It sounds sensible, isn't it? But I do not understand why 7 devs -even elected by the others- could make decisions on other projects and are described as the group in charge of the 'global issues and policies'. Gal' 2007/6/6, Wulf C. Krueger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote: [Proctor system] > a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as > has been suggested? Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's difficult to judge. Furthermore, where do we need them? The Forums are moderated by an, IMHO, excellent team. IRC is more or less self-moderated. That basically leaves the mailinglists and among those, the only one that *might* arguably need supervision could be -dev. Do we really need moderation on the list? Or could we just literally moderate ourselves instead? Could we try and succeed to be just ignore some flames instead of adding oil to the fire? And even if we can't: We still have DevRel we can complain to. Yes, DevRel is for inter-developer conflicts but let's look back in the archives a bit -
Re: [gentoo-dev] Global USE flag change: wxwindows to wxwidgets?
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 10:02 -0700, Nathan Smith wrote: > I noticed that use.desc includes an entry for "wxwindows." The > wxWindows project changed its name to "wxWidgets" around three years > ago. [1] Perhaps the USE flag should be changed to "wxwidgets" or > simply "wx" to reflect the change. Beside use.desc and affected > ebuilds, there is also a wxwindows herd. I see no hurry in changing the USE flag name, unless I can do it in profile/updates so that it is updated in make.conf, package.use and so on and on. Can I? I vaguely remember sometimes seeing etc-update having updates to package.use, but I think those were for package moves, not USE flag renames. If I can't, a change in the USE flag name will disrupt users without much necessity. I should s/wxWindows/wxWidgets/ in the USE flag description though. A herd name change would be less disruptive, as people (and mostly bug wranglers at that) would have to just figure out they need to assign and CC to [EMAIL PROTECTED] instead of [EMAIL PROTECTED] then. I planned to rename the herd at some point, but it got onto a backburner with certain things being way behind in the wx world in Gentoo and it not being too important compared to the technical things to solve. Will probably have infra and bugzie guys take care of it later this year, though, regarding the herd name... Thanks, -- Mart Raudsepp Gentoo Developer (wxwindows and gnome herds) Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wednesday 06 June 2007 13:48:53 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no > accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of > containing too many of said forums staff. That's bullshit. We are subject to the same rules as the other gentoo devs/staffs. Stop spreading your FUD around (I think I said that before). As for the forum staff in the proctors, I think that some of us could be found in the proctors because we cared and we tried to do something to improve our communication media (if we had any success on it, that's another discussion). But the number of forum staff in the proctors has recently decreased, as amne, jmbsvicetto, and myself decided to step down and leave the proctors. Good luck for the remaining proctors, they will need as they aparently can't even expect any support from council members. Cheers Pilla signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
Wulf C. Krueger wrote: > I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear > guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and > what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's > difficult to judge. The guideline, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to ban people who dont abide by the time-outs. And the guideline for time-outs, as far as I understood it, was (and is?) to use them when a thread, as obviously as this one, is neither technical, nor productive but a flame war. And yes, in my opinion, it already was one to the time the warning was sent out. > Do we really need moderation on the list? Or could we just literally > moderate ourselves instead? Could we try and succeed to be just ignore > some flames instead of adding oil to the fire? As the incidents in the last few months showed, there is a handfull of people who seem to love flame wars, or dont have anything better to do, so: No, ignoring them does not work, as it just is not what people are doing, which is why proctors where brought into existence: To make people calm down by forcing a delay, which likely will make them stop replying. > When I first read the CoC I had just read about the entire Ciaran-incident > on the respective bugs, Forums, mailinglists, blogs and many other > sources. CoC, while not bad in itself, seemed (and still seems) to me > like a "Lex Ciaran" - a document with that what I had just read clearly > in mind and targetted at preventing it. The CoC is the legal basis for the proctors (as well as the other teams). > The problem is, though: In an asynchronous communications medium, you > simply cannot pro-actively do anything without bordering on what some > like to call censorship. You can only *re*act in such a situation. The reaction was to delay the thread, and therefore pro-actively forcing people to calm down. There's the hidden pro-active part. Of course, by anyone who felt the urgent need to reply anyway, this effect was destroyed. Furthermore, it was reversed by those replys containing the self-fulfilling prophecy that there is no effect which got things really going. > If, after both sides were investigated properly, the complaining party is > found to be exaggerating or too easily offended, disciplinary action > should be taken against it. I am strictly against any way to punish a complainer, except where it is slander or similar, where in turn, the slandered person might complain via the same way. Punishment for exaggeration leads to arbitrariness. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] www-servers/boa wants YOU...
On Wednesday 06 June 2007 06:10, Ryan Hill wrote: > ...to maintain it. > > Boa is "a single-tasking HTTP server. That means that unlike > traditional Web servers, it does not fork for each incoming connection, > nor does it fork many copies of itself to handle multiple connections. > It internally multiplexes all of the ongoing HTTP connections, and forks > only for CGI programs (which must be separate processes), automatic > directory generation, and automatic file gunzipping. Tests show boa is > capable of handling up to several hundred hits per second on a 100 Mhz > Pentium, dozens of hits per second on a lowly 20 MHz 386/SX, and > thousands on more powerful CPUs." > > It is currently under the mask of the tree-cleaners. However, Gentoo > user Jochen Schlick has made a case for keeping it around and has gone > as far as providing a fix for bug #102174, the bug that led to its > masking. Upstream appears dead, but boa is still being carried by > several other distros (fedora, debian, freebsd). There is one other > bug, #101600. > > If you or your herd team (www-servers ping) can find a home for this > low-maintenance package, please add yourself to the metadata. > > Thanks. > > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102174 > > > -- > where to now? if i had to guess > dirtyepic gentoo orgi'm afraid to say antarctica's next > 9B81 6C9F E791 83BB 3AB3 5B2D E625 A073 8379 37E8 (0x837937E8) Just want to mention that I'd realy like this package to be kept in portage, i use it on many machines for static content. I dont know how much love this package needs, i use an overlay right now to keep this package available, with some personal changes. If i can help keeping this package i'd be glad to. Bas. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Global USE flag change: wxwindows to wxwidgets?
I noticed that use.desc includes an entry for "wxwindows." The wxWindows project changed its name to "wxWidgets" around three years ago. [1] Perhaps the USE flag should be changed to "wxwidgets" or simply "wx" to reflect the change. Beside use.desc and affected ebuilds, there is also a wxwindows herd. [1] http://wxwidgets.org/about/name.htm -- Nathan Smith Gentoo/PowerPC AT [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Mike Doty wrote: > Ciaran McCreesh wrote: >> On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 >> Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to >>> be a proctor directive.) >> He changed the subject and signed "on behalf of gentoo-proctors". >> >>> Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked >>> entirely, as has been suggested? >> The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the >> proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used >> to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say >> anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can >> be banned permanently with no accountability. > Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. > ++ -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:33:29 -0700 > Mike Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >>> The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the >>> proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so >>> used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who >>> dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective >>> views can be banned permanently with no accountability. >>> >> Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors >> were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews >> everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. > > That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no > accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of > containing too many of said forums staff. > > Perhaps you should take the time to read things properly before > attempting sarcasm... > Perhaps you should go take a long walk off a short pier. >> Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. > > So now you're not content with filing hypocritical devrel bugs > complaining of people swearing in places you yourself regularly swear, > and are escalating the thread to ad hominem? (Note that it isn't ad > hominem if the claims are relevant to the matter at hand, so this > thread was previously ad hominem free.) > Oh, I'm so hurt. You think I'm a hypocrite. Man, what will I ever do? Newsflash, I know I'm a hypocrite, which is a lot better than the childish passive-aggressive asshole you are. -- === Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org Gentoo Council Gentoo Infrastructure Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05 === -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 09:33:29 -0700 Mike Doty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the > > proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so > > used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who > > dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective > > views can be banned permanently with no accountability. > > > Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors > were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews > everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. That wasn't what I said. What I said was that the forums staff have no accountability, and that the proctors were suffering as a result of containing too many of said forums staff. Perhaps you should take the time to read things properly before attempting sarcasm... > Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. So now you're not content with filing hypocritical devrel bugs complaining of people swearing in places you yourself regularly swear, and are escalating the thread to ad hominem? (Note that it isn't ad hominem if the claims are relevant to the matter at hand, so this thread was previously ad hominem free.) -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just > > because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. > > I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the > response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? What I saw was a response to what you as one of the I-will-reply-anyway guys caused, and I bet if people had just stayed quiet for 24 hours the thread would have died out rather quickly. The replys by other devs seem to be allmost exclusivly be based on the fact, that people like you did not take their time calming down, or if they were calm anyway, take their time to do whatever for 24 hours. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 > Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to >> be a proctor directive.) > > He changed the subject and signed "on behalf of gentoo-proctors". > >> Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked >> entirely, as has been suggested? > > The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the > proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used > to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say > anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can > be banned permanently with no accountability. > Thanks for your wonderful insight, No one had any idea the proctors were a group with no accountability. When the council reviews everything they've done in the past month, we're just joking around. Back to reality, go take a long walk off a short pier. -- === Mike Doty kingtaco -at- gentoo.org Gentoo Council Gentoo Infrastructure Gentoo/AMD64 Strategic Lead GPG: E1A5 1C9C 93FE F430 C1D6 F2AF 806B A2E4 19F4 AE05 === -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 18:08:30 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just > because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. I'm claiming it because plenty of other people agree. You *did* see the response that the proctors got from various Gentoo developers, right? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Proctors - improve the concept or discard it?
On Wednesday, June 6, 2007 05:29:47 PM Grant Goodyear wrote: [Proctor system] > a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as > has been suggested? Personally, I think we simply don't need the proctors. I'm sure they have the best intentions but I've never seen any clear guidelines for them. They use their best judgement what to handle and what not to but due to language barriers, cultural differences etc. it's difficult to judge. Furthermore, where do we need them? The Forums are moderated by an, IMHO, excellent team. IRC is more or less self-moderated. That basically leaves the mailinglists and among those, the only one that *might* arguably need supervision could be -dev. Do we really need moderation on the list? Or could we just literally moderate ourselves instead? Could we try and succeed to be just ignore some flames instead of adding oil to the fire? And even if we can't: We still have DevRel we can complain to. Yes, DevRel is for inter-developer conflicts but let's look back in the archives a bit - do we really need more than that? Most conflicts arise between active developers and, well, one active retired-dev. Do we really need an entire team for dealing with one former dev in case he goes too far? Or could we just agree to ignore him if he again behaves inappropriately (or what some of us *feel* might be inappropriate)? When I first read the CoC I had just read about the entire Ciaran-incident on the respective bugs, Forums, mailinglists, blogs and many other sources. CoC, while not bad in itself, seemed (and still seems) to me like a "Lex Ciaran" - a document with that what I had just read clearly in mind and targetted at preventing it. While preventing it is a good goal in itself, writing a CoC based on an actual case which has only recently occurred, usually leads to this result and damages the whatever good intentions were involved because other people will see the similarities as well. More than that, it puts a strain on those who are entrusted with enforcing the CoC because they will try, with the best motives, to prevent anything like that happening again. And they will do it, as the proctors stated themselves, pro-actively. The problem is, though: In an asynchronous communications medium, you simply cannot pro-actively do anything without bordering on what some like to call censorship. You can only *re*act in such a situation. Even *trying* to act pro-actively will lead to unrest as we've only very recently seen it. If we accept my hypothesis of asynchronous communication and the implications I described, we come to the conclusion that reaction is the most likely way not to open Pandora's Box. That leads back to DevRel. We have them to deal reactively with conflicts after a complaint by either party involved. I stated, that on the mailinglists, we mainly see inter-developer conflicts and those can be handled by DevRel. A small improvement to DevRel might be achieved, at least from what I've seen by reading lots and lots of DevRel bugs, by taking action on unfounded complaints, too. I'm speaking of trivial complaints, of course. If, after both sides were investigated properly, the complaining party is found to be exaggerating or too easily offended, disciplinary action should be taken against it. Of course, this should be done light-handedly but it should give the complaining party some time to learn from their mistake. Maybe this is what's already intended - it's just that I haven't found any examples. :) I apologise for the long mail but I wanted to state clearly and without too much emotions why I think we don't need the proctors and why we should thank them for attempting to bring some order to the chaos and give up on the concept as a whole. Best regards, Wulf pgpvi35iN6lHu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Am Mittwoch 06 Juni 2007 17:53 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh: > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 > > Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you > > could keep your fucking trap shut? > > If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by > someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making > insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a > particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees > with them, then no. First: Avoiding a flame war, and shutting it down as soon as it can clearly be seen it will become one, is a very good reason to most of us, i suppose. Second: Noone clamed humor would not be allowed. Third: There was no cencorship. There was a forced delay, after which anyone would have been free to spread his/her ideas again. Last: Just stop claiming others are insane, abusive power-trippers just because you did not abide by a rule and got your punishment for it. If you dont like the way things are, show well-reasons options out of the situation, write an eMail to the user-relations or the Council expressing your problem. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 > Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you >> could keep your fucking trap shut? > > If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by > someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making > insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a > particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees > with them, then no. > Technical prowess you have immensely, which is good because it makes up for your lack of common sense. I am done, and you are now killfiled. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, Jun 06, 2007 at 10:29:47AM -0500, Grant Goodyear wrote:
> Chris Gianelloni wrote: [Tue Jun 05 2007, 05:00:28PM CDT]
> > As a member of the Council, I find it personally offensive that the
> > Proctors have taken this action on what wasn't even a "problem" thread.
> > I'm sick of this. I call for the immediate disbanding of the Proctors.
> >
> > As much as I dislike many of the posts from geoman/ciaranm, they really
> > had not done anything worthy of being banned. I ask that this ban is
> > undone *immediately* and that the Proctors have their powers revoked.
>
> *Sigh* I, too, was quite surprised to see people banned for what
> appeared to be reasonable behavior (in this case). That said, I wish
> you'd started w/ a more temperate response, instead of going all nuclear
> on the proctors. It's likely to create some hard feelings, and that
> just makes things harder to fix.
>
> So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm
> discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors
> clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things
> got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were
> not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to
> be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors
> to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there
> a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as
> has been suggested?
>
> Well reasoned thoughts and opinions welcome.
I was originally planning to send this yesterday, but wanted to delay
it a bit because the list had just calmed down again.
I'm a recent addition to the proctors team, probably pulled in mainly
because I'm a #gentoo op, and have also been involved with conflict
resolution things for the userrel project. This was the first time I
was around as a proctor during an event involving proctors. A
disclaimer: I was a bit tired when I originally wrote this and have
not fully proofread this, so expect the grammar to be a bit bizarre in
places. I probably missed some relevant bits too, but this is more
than long enough already.
An attempt at a "timeline" of what happened with that thread:
An initial mail from Benjamin Judas is sent to the gentoo-dev list
(which is mainly a *technical* list), with a sent date of 20:09 UTC,
arriving in my inbox at 20:15 UTC. It contains pretty much no
technical content, and some things ("small scottish griper brain",
"I'm waiting for the stinky comments from the usual corners." that
seem likely to lead to flames.
The second mail is from Stephen P. Becker, dated 20:18 UTC (less than
10 minutes after the first), arriving in my inbox at 20:25 UTC. It
contains no technical content, but does contain "Clean the sand out of
your pee-hole...", which might be a joke but seems likely to fuel the
flames even if it was meant as one.
More mails follow, with pretty much no technical points in them. I'll
skip them, since they did not really affect the decisions that were
made.
Around this time a proctors member (NeddySeagoon) sends another mail
to the list asking people to stop replying. He was alerted to the
thread via irc at around 20:33 UTC (after which he still had to
actually read the start of the thread). His mail has a sent header of
20:44, arriving in my inbox at 20:55.
This gets two replies that both make it rather obvious they disagree
with this suggestion and definitely do not intend to stop posting to
the thread (one sent 20:52 (*before* Neddy's mail makes it to my
inbox) arriving in my inbox at 21:00, and one sent 21:00 arriving at
21:10). At this point the decision is made to *temporarily* disable ml
access for those two people in an attempt to let the thread die out
(mail from amne, 21:13 sent, 21:20 in my inbox).
Please take a look at the timestamps above. We spend some time reading
the mail sent to the list, discussing what to do, and typing in
replies. Add in the roughly ten minute lag between sending mail to the
list and it reaching most of the subscribers and we're continually
about 15 minutes "behind" no matter how quickly we try to react. And
we do try to react quickly, because it seems likely more flames are
being sent and making their way through the list software while we
decide what to do. Amne actually responded to the second reply to
NeddySeagoon's mail before I had the time to receive and read the
thing.
In hindsight it is obvious this attempt to stop the thread failed. A
flood of replies resulted, most of them taking apart the wording of
NeddySeagoon's original request to stop replying.
And some more flaming later we get the following from a council member
to the -dev list:
From Chris Gianelloni <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> I really have to agree with you. The proctors have completely lost
> their way. They are ineffective. They tend to compound the problems
> they were created to stop.
Yes, they obviously did not manage to stop this particular
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Am Mittwoch 06 Juni 2007 17:42 schrieb Ciaran McCreesh: > > Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked > > entirely, as has been suggested? > > The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the > proctors. I feel like _anyone_* who willingly acts against a dont-reply-warning/thread-time-out which was recognized as such are to be banned, and therefore I dont really see the problem, except that someone maybe did _not_ recognize the warning as such, although Roy changed topic and signed with proctors. To fix this, one could additionally use [EMAIL PROTECTED] or so, which should make it _very_ clear that this is not a personal "please, calm down everybody"-mail It's different, of course, if someone didnt yet recieve the proctors warning, and sent a reply within minutes, which wasn't the case as the mails where sent as reply to Roys mail, so... * council and proctors excepted -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 10:44:49 -0500 Steev Klimaszewski <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you > could keep your fucking trap shut? If I'm asked by someone with a good reason, sure. If I'm told to by someone on a power trip with a history of abusing authority who's making insane claims about humour not being allowed and trying to achieve a particular outcome to a discussion by censoring anyone who disagrees with them, then no. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 > Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to >> be a proctor directive.) > > He changed the subject and signed "on behalf of gentoo-proctors". > >> Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked >> entirely, as has been suggested? > > The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the > proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used > to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say > anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can > be banned permanently with no accountability. > Or... perhaps when asked not to respond to a thread for 24 hours, you could keep your fucking trap shut? -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.7 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGZtZx1c+EtXTHkJcRAosHAJ42XbbNLSEaOVeLtAcEvTFMrmhAvQCggR5l NKfMVHNa0HuInct529dbI0s= =s4+3 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] New global use flag, xulrunner
Agreed from mozilla. firefox and seamonkey already have the global use-flag -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
On Wed, 6 Jun 2007 10:29:47 -0500 Grant Goodyear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to > be a proctor directive.) He changed the subject and signed "on behalf of gentoo-proctors". > Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked > entirely, as has been suggested? The problem is not so much the system as a small number of the proctors. Perhaps it should be restaffed with people who aren't so used to wielding god-like powers on the forums, where anyone who dares say anything that disagrees with a small clique's collective views can be banned permanently with no accountability. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Living in a bubble [gentoo-proctor] Warning^2
Chris Gianelloni wrote: [Tue Jun 05 2007, 05:00:28PM CDT] > As a member of the Council, I find it personally offensive that the > Proctors have taken this action on what wasn't even a "problem" thread. > I'm sick of this. I call for the immediate disbanding of the Proctors. > > As much as I dislike many of the posts from geoman/ciaranm, they really > had not done anything worthy of being banned. I ask that this ban is > undone *immediately* and that the Proctors have their powers revoked. *Sigh* I, too, was quite surprised to see people banned for what appeared to be reasonable behavior (in this case). That said, I wish you'd started w/ a more temperate response, instead of going all nuclear on the proctors. It's likely to create some hard feelings, and that just makes things harder to fix. So, how about using this incident as an opportunity for a calm discussion about the mandate and role of the proctors? The proctors clearly felt that they should shut down this thread _before_ things got out of hand. Perhaps the goal was laudable, but the methods were not? (As an aside, I didn't realize that Roy's e-mail was supposed to be a proctor directive.) Or are people really looking for the proctors to get involved only when behavior is particularly egregious? Is there a way to fix the current system, or should it be chucked entirely, as has been suggested? Well reasoned thoughts and opinions welcome. -g2boojum- -- Grant Goodyear Gentoo Developer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0 9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76 pgphkHI9WqqNz.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New global use flag, xulrunner
On Wed, 2007-06-06 at 17:44 +0300, Samuli Suominen wrote: > use.local.desc:dev-java/swt:xulrunner - Build native browser integration > against xulrunner > use.local.desc:dev-python/gnome-python-extras:xulrunner - Enable support for > xulrunner instead of firefox > use.local.desc:dev-util/devhelp:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner > instead of firefox > use.local.desc:gnome-extra/yelp:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner > instead of firefox > use.local.desc:media-video/totem:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner > instead of firefox > use.local.desc:net-news/liferea:xulrunner - Enable xulrunner as renderer in > liferea > use.local.desc:www-client/epiphany-extensions:xulrunner - Enable support for > xulrunner instead of firefox > use.local.desc:www-client/epiphany:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner > instead of firefox > > List is likely to grow in future. > > Any objections? > > - Samuli Suominen ++ from gnome Daniel -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] New global use flag, xulrunner
use.local.desc:dev-java/swt:xulrunner - Build native browser integration against xulrunner use.local.desc:dev-python/gnome-python-extras:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox use.local.desc:dev-util/devhelp:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox use.local.desc:gnome-extra/yelp:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox use.local.desc:media-video/totem:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox use.local.desc:net-news/liferea:xulrunner - Enable xulrunner as renderer in liferea use.local.desc:www-client/epiphany-extensions:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox use.local.desc:www-client/epiphany:xulrunner - Enable support for xulrunner instead of firefox List is likely to grow in future. Any objections? - Samuli Suominen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [PMS] new dep list (useful just for cross stuff)
Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:24:00 +0200 > Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> PMS overlords what's your take? > > You need to start by identifying use cases. Are you discussing handling > cross compiling, Yes multilib, Ok C++ / python ABIs Aargh, ehm, should we really throw them in the mix? anyway let me see if the same rules apply: - they have to reside in a separate path if possible? - the linker must not pick wrong ones in place of the ones you want to use. - an application using a former abi must link depend on stuff from the same place but MAY use stuff from another place. - is up to the loader pick the right paths on execution - the dep resolver should ignore packages built using the other C++/Python abi. The issue is more complex and I just ignored it basically because the library abi mismatch is an error that should be rectified and not something you want and no it isn't because I don't care about binary only stuff right now, it's just because looks like there is already too much meat w/out something that fits just halfway on the constraints. or all of them? Then you > need to identify what packages would need to do to handle those things. All. > Don't even think about the package manager side until you've worked out > what ebuilds would do. autotooled programs more or less are already doing the right thing, non autotools packages supporting cross development may require some additional checks to pass the right target. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: New global USE flag: gsl
Michael Cummings <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I protest on the grounds that I help maintain PDL, and I'm a > non-conformist, which means no keywords or use flags that might be in > line with conforming to others. On some occasions I think you sometimes smoke that Gentoo Fungus. V-Li signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] New global USE flag: gsl
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Christian Faulhammer wrote: > Hi, > > I propose to create a new global USE flag: > > $ euse -i gsl > > [-] gsl (dev-perl/PDL): > Use the GNU scientific library for calculations > I protest on the grounds that I help maintain PDL, and I'm a non-conformist, which means no keywords or use flags that might be in line with conforming to others. ok, well, i figured we had enough muck being tossed around on here, and no one ever bothers to give positive feedback on these things usually (never) (i don't really know, i didn't really check that assertion.) ++ on the global use flag thingie, though i really don't think those are ever going to catch on... - -- - -o()o-- Michael Cummings |#gentoo-dev, #gentoo-perl Gentoo Perl Dev|on irc.freenode.net Gentoo/SPARC Gentoo/AMD64 GPG: 0543 6FA3 5F82 3A76 3BF7 8323 AB5C ED4E 9E7F 4E2E - -o()o-- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.4 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGZqrcq1ztTp5/Ti4RAhioAJwNcHMkORc4cJj0AbAEEB87LF/dWgCdGEuU XDGdJ1ogk3CwiY+xGHW2JZ4= =gLd4 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] New global USE flag: gsl
Hi, I propose to create a new global USE flag: $ euse -i gsl global use flags (searching: gsl) no matching entries found local use flags (searching: gsl) [-] gsl (dev-perl/PDL): Use the GNU scientific library for calculations [-] gsl (mail-filter/bogofilter): Use the GNU scientific library for calculations [-] gsl (media-gfx/asymptote): Use the GNU scientific library for calculations [-] gsl (media-sound/snd): Use the GNU scientific library for calculations [-] gsl (sci-astronomy/orsa): Use the GNU scientific library for calculations V-Li -- http://www.gentoo.org/ http://www.faulhammer.org/ http://www.gnupg.org/ signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Fact Injection
Kumba wrote: Anyways, we're off the crab guys. Really. We're pulling in blank pots, the crew is getting restless, and we're almost out of coffee and nicotine. Let's get our heads on straight, our asses in gear, fill our tanks and get back to port so we can get paid and go home. I wonder how many people are going to get that reference :) -- Andrew Gaffney http://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Catalyst/Installer + x86 release coordinator -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] What's it about, anyway?
> An excellent former manager of mine once gave me very good advice - > everybody is replaceable. I for one have been a bit annoyed by the "An excellent former manager" of yours either was Joseph Stalin or he just plagiarized this "very good advice". Love, H -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] [PMS] new dep list (useful just for cross stuff)
On Wed, 06 Jun 2007 11:24:00 +0200 Luca Barbato <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > PMS overlords what's your take? You need to start by identifying use cases. Are you discussing handling cross compiling, multilib, C++ / python ABIs or all of them? Then you need to identify what packages would need to do to handle those things. Don't even think about the package manager side until you've worked out what ebuilds would do. -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] [PMS] new dep list (useful just for cross stuff)
yesterday we discussed about cross development and why the gentoo support for it works just to a point (and then has something missing) There are already some convoluted ideas about multiabi/multilib support with patches being discussed and there are some handy scripts that let you cross emerge stuff to a point (it has to be an autotooled package or has to be cross aware, it shouldn't depend on running certain programs). the first way aims at integrate the multiabi concept in a quite tight way, the other just makes portage consider it a completely separated beast and just ignore the rest. The nicer way should be just have another dep list that shows which rdeps should REALLY be run in order to get the package built and which are just deps needed to run the package itself. the simple/dumb way to treat this list is something like: you walk the cross dep list, for each atom in the dep with a run to build dep prepare a list to feed to the host configured package manager and build it first, then move to the cross dep list and threat it as it is a completely separated instance. Sounds too simple to be complete but I think for simple stuff like doc creation and cvs/svn/git/hg.. dep for live ebuilds should work pretty fine. PMS overlords what's your take? lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] What's it about, anyway?
Hi! As I feel it's necessary to clarify: I've *not* made the decision to quite or anything, I didn't wnat to get that notion across in my mail. My point was that it had gotten so bad that I seriously started considering it - which is bad enough and made me think. If that has made half a person think before posting, hey that's great. And now let's get on with doing what we enjoy :) Rgeards, Tobias -- In the future, everyone will be anonymous for 15 minutes. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Re: Fact Injection (was: Living in a bubble)
Kumba <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> posted [EMAIL PROTECTED], excerpted below, on Wed, 06 Jun 2007 00:18:23 -0400: > Ya'll don't hear from me very often, usually because for the last 9 > months or so, I've been pretty apathetic to things that have been going > on. But I keep on truckin' because I have thissense that we're just > having a wee little dark age. You know, like that one back in the last > millennium where there was probably 0 scientific advancement? Well, we > (the world) survived that. We also survived the Cold War. And by the > gods, we're gonna survive Bush too (bloody RAID6 bugs). That means, > Gentoo can survive this this little dark spell quite easily. We won't > be the same organization that we were we this all started, but well, > that's life. Old blood will be leeched, and new blood transfused in. I'm not a mips user, but FWIW from this (amd64) user's perspective, thanks, both for the mail, which I thought was very well put, and for stickin' around. Some of us users found a home with Gentoo, and despite all the "life and times of gentoo-dev" soap opera stuff that seems to go on some of the time, hope it's around for a long while... I imagine myself doing my final sync, fifty years from now or whatever (I'd be ninety), and they come to check on me the next morning, to find death finally synced with me. For that to happen, there'll still need to be some Gentoo devs around creating those packages, so yeah, I'm grateful for all you guys and all your contributions, even when it's "not so fun anymore", and wish you a very long and productive Gentoo devhood! =8^) -- Duncan - List replies preferred. No HTML msgs. "Every nonfree program has a lord, a master -- and if you use the program, he is your master." Richard Stallman -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
