Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:27:46PM +, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:28:29 +, Alec Warner anta...@gentoo.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. ??I think there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater and switch it to the new python. ??At that point, it is going to hit the fan. ??I know because this is what I always do. ??News item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected. If you don't bother reading news items or messages from packages, there is nothing we can do. I don't feel that this is an excuse for holding up stabilization. * Messages for package dev-lang/python-3.1.2: * * WARNING! * Many Python modules haven't been ported yet to Python 3.*. * Python 3 hasn't been activated and Python wrapper is still configured to use Python 2. * You can manually activate Python 3.1 using `eselect python set python3.1`. * It is recommended to currently have Python wrapper configured to use Python 2. * Having Python wrapper configured to use Python 3 is unsupported. The message above looks pretty clear to me. It works, but don't make it the default. Having it marked stable and being able to use it as the default python are two separate things, and the maintainer is making it very clear in this message that it can't be the default python. William pgp5kJU5CN4ta.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Thursday 25 March 2010 20:05:17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote: The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. That's really good news! Why not wait a little bit until this is accomplished? I know it would make me feel a lot more comfortable with having python 3 in stable. Marijn
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
El jue, 25-03-2010 a las 11:37 -0400, Richard Freeman escribió: On 03/24/2010 11:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. I don't have strong feelings on whether having v3 installed by default is a big problem, but the last bit here probably should be addressed. The current news item only shows up for people with python 3.1 already installed. Would it make sense to have it show up for anybody with any version of python installed? Otherwise it is news after-the-fact. Rich Hello Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all python apps :-/ Thanks for the info signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/26/2010 02:02 AM, Pacho Ramos wrote: El jue, 25-03-2010 a las 11:37 -0400, Richard Freeman escribió: On 03/24/2010 11:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. I don't have strong feelings on whether having v3 installed by default is a big problem, but the last bit here probably should be addressed. The current news item only shows up for people with python 3.1 already installed. Would it make sense to have it show up for anybody with any version of python installed? Otherwise it is news after-the-fact. Rich Hello Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all python apps :-/ Thanks for the info If you don't want to run python-updater, then you'd better mask python3 and uninstall it. Otherwise, you'll encounter build failures due to new packages trying to build for python3 when their dependencies haven't been rebuilt with python3 support. There's no harm done since it's easy to mask and uninstall python3 at this point, thereby avoiding the need to run python-updater. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/26/2010 12:59 AM, Marijn Schouten (hkBst) wrote: On Thursday 25 March 2010 20:05:17 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote: The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. That's really good news! Why not wait a little bit until this is accomplished? I know it would make me feel a lot more comfortable with having python 3 in stable. I don't see any gain in delaying the stabilization except that people who decide they don't have resources to spare for python3 will have more time before they need to mask it locally. This subset of people probably won't change much whether it's stabilized now or a year from now. So, it's mostly a question of whether these people need to mask in now or mask it later. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
El vie, 26-03-2010 a las 05:10 -0700, Zac Medico escribió: Hello Maybe I have misunderstood anything (since I don't know much about python stuff) but, what would occur if I forget to mask python-3 and don't run python-updater. My plans would be to try to delay python-updater running until I switch to use python3, because some machines I maintain are quite old and takes some time to re-emerge all python apps :-/ Thanks for the info If you don't want to run python-updater, then you'd better mask python3 and uninstall it. Otherwise, you'll encounter build failures due to new packages trying to build for python3 when their dependencies haven't been rebuilt with python3 support. There's no harm done since it's easy to mask and uninstall python3 at this point, thereby avoiding the need to run python-updater. Thanks a lot Zac for the explanation Arfrever, could this be noted in news item? I mean, since you are clearly in favor of python3 stabilization, you have prepared news item and *seems to me* that you prefer to not suggest or recommend its local masking in that news item, maybe you could find a way to write news informing users that they will need mask new python if they prefer to postpone python-updater run (since I think some users, like me, will prefer to not rebuild lots of packages until most of them will work with newer python), that way it wouldn't sound as much like a generic recommendation but more like a needed step for users not wanting to run python-updater yet (that would be like a special case common enough to take care of it). Would it be ok for you? Maybe that way most of us could reach a consensus on this :-) Thanks a lot signature.asc Description: Esta parte del mensaje está firmada digitalmente
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/24/2010 08:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:12:55 -0500 William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. Again, if it *cannot* be the default python, then it *should not* be installed by default, which is what will happen if it's marked stable and users aren't told to p.mask it. Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. Do we have a precedent on this, if for example, we look at the last time that a new slot of java (like 1.5) came out that wasn't supported by all packages and therefore couldn't be set as the default system jvm? -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a): 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. My script was wrong. More correct data: About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared. 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared. About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared. About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:35:19AM -0700, Zac Medico wrote: On 03/24/2010 08:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:12:55 -0500 William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. Again, if it *cannot* be the default python, then it *should not* be installed by default, which is what will happen if it's marked stable and users aren't told to p.mask it. Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. Do we have a precedent on this, if for example, we look at the last time that a new slot of java (like 1.5) came out that wasn't supported by all packages and therefore couldn't be set as the default system jvm? There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version. ~harring pgpH4KkiKHK0p.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a): 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. My script was wrong. More correct data: About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared. 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared. About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared. About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared. I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter. I'm betting you mean support multi-abi, meaning if you've got py2.6 and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of a difference. Kindly clarify- if over half of the raw dev-python pkgs are py3k parsable I'm going to be very, very surprised. ~harring pgpfRI69sDmfN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a): There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version. Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a): On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a): 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. My script was wrong. More correct data: About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared. 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared. About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared. About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared. I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter. I'm betting you mean support multi-abi, meaning if you've got py2.6 and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of a difference. These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs and packages which call python_set_active_version(). -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a): There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version. Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1. As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is going to hit the fan. I know because this is what I always do. News item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected. If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently portage is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan. Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. Then I'm going to sit back and see what happens, good or bad. I can't imagine anything good but I sure can imagine bad things. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:04:28PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a): On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a): 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. My script was wrong. More correct data: About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared. 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared. About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared. About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared. I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter. I'm betting you mean support multi-abi, meaning if you've got py2.6 and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of a difference. These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs and packages which call python_set_active_version(). Bleh. So in other words a third of the pkgs that dep on python have the minimal basics for dealing w/ py3k landing. I'd question what percentile have proper locked deps also (stating they're py2k only), but that's a seperate discussion. That *still* doesn't answer the question of how many can be *ran* by py3k also. Note in the past when breakages of this sort have been unleashed, the percentile of prepared pkgs has been generally a helluva lot higher- having 90% prepared is one thing, but y'all aren't at that point and you've got 3 weeks (after what, 3 months?) to bring the percentile higher then a third? What's the minimal percentile you're aiming for prior to the unmasking? ~harring pgpw4WC7Xap3H.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a): There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version. Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1. As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is going to hit the fan. I know because this is what I always do. News item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected. My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3 as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid environment variables or similar.) If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently portage is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan. Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. Then I'm going to sit back and see what happens, good or bad. I can't imagine anything good but I sure can imagine bad things. Such faith ;) Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-26 17:15:42 Brian Harring napisał(a): On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 05:04:28PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-26 16:43:57 Brian Harring napisał(a): On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 03:22:52PM +0100, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis 2010-03-25 20:05:17 napisał(a): 2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. My script was wrong. More correct data: About 55% of packages in dev-python category belonging to python herd are prepared. 100% of packages in net-zope category belonging to python herd are prepared. About 60% of packages belonging to python herd are prepared. About 47% of packages in dev-python category not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 13% of packages not belonging to python herd are prepared. About 34% of all packages depending on Python are prepared. I get the feeling your phrasing here is a bit misleading- 'support setting py3k as main active python' implies that the stats above are the # of pkgs in the tree supporting *using* a py3k interpretter. I'm betting you mean support multi-abi, meaning if you've got py2.6 and py3.1, it'll install into py2.6, while avoiding py3k. Fair bit of a difference. These numbers include packages which support installation for multiple Python ABIs and packages which call python_set_active_version(). Bleh. So in other words a third of the pkgs that dep on python have the minimal basics for dealing w/ py3k landing. I'd question what percentile have proper locked deps also (stating they're py2k only), but that's a seperate discussion. That *still* doesn't answer the question of how many can be *ran* by py3k also. Note in the past when breakages of this sort have been unleashed, the percentile of prepared pkgs has been generally a helluva lot higher- having 90% prepared is one thing, but y'all aren't at that point and you've got 3 weeks (after what, 3 months?) to bring the percentile higher then a third? What's the minimal percentile you're aiming for prior to the unmasking? Python ebuilds will start automatically setting Python 3 as main active version of Python when all bugs blocking bug #308257 are fixed. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, 26 Mar 2010 16:28:29 +, Alec Warner anta...@gentoo.org wrote: On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is going to hit the fan. I know because this is what I always do. News item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected. My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3 as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid environment variables or similar.) Alec, don't assume ;) * Messages for package dev-lang/python-3.1.2: * * WARNING! * Many Python modules haven't been ported yet to Python 3.*. * Python 3 hasn't been activated and Python wrapper is still configured to use Python 2. * You can manually activate Python 3.1 using `eselect python set python3.1`. * It is recommended to currently have Python wrapper configured to use Python 2. * Having Python wrapper configured to use Python 3 is unsupported. %% sudo eselect python set python3.1 %% python --version Python 3.1.2 -Jeremy
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Alec Warner wrote: On Fri, Mar 26, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Dalerdalek1...@gmail.com wrote: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 2010-03-26 16:40:37 Brian Harring napisał(a): There really isn't a precedent since upgrades of this sort typically either have extremely locked down deps, or just plain don't happen till the vast majority of depndencies are updated. If in doubt, look at the past python upgrades- they've been delayed till all of the major consumers played nice w/ the targeted python version. Main active version of Python was automatically updated during previous Python upgrades, but it's not updated during installation of Python 3.1. As a user, I still think this could turn into a real mess. I think there will be quite a few that will see python being updated, run python-updater and switch it to the new python. At that point, it is going to hit the fan. I know because this is what I always do. News item or not, when python gets updated, I run python-updater and make sure it is selected. My assumption here is that eselect-python will not let you select v3 as your python version without some prodding (eg setting stupid environment variables or similar.) r...@smoker ~ # eselect python list Available Python interpreters: [1] python2.6 * [2] python3.1 r...@smoker ~ # eselect python set 2 r...@smoker ~ # eselect python list Available Python interpreters: [1] python2.6 [2] python3.1 * r...@smoker ~ # That was pretty easy to select the new python. Everything I did was right there. Two commands and it is switched. This is where problems will start. If this somehow breaks portage, which it shouldn't since apparently portage is fine with the new python, then it is going to really hit the fan. Me, I'm going to make SURE nothing changes on my system. Then I'm going to sit back and see what happens, good or bad. I can't imagine anything good but I sure can imagine bad things. Such faith ;) Dale :-) :-) It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list. Also, if python3 is marked as stable, people will assume it is safe to switch to. That's what stable means. Back to my hole. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote: It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list. Also, if python3 is marked as stable, people will assume it is safe to switch to. That's what stable means. Back to my hole. Dale :-) :-) It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything newest, highest and shiniest.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
George Prowse wrote: On 26/03/2010 17:43, Dale wrote: It's not faith, its reality. There will be some people that don't subscribe to this list that will do what is above. This IS the reason I subscribed to this list. I wanted to know what the devs were doing under the hood that would lead me to screw up my system. It's amazing how much fewer problems I have had since I started watching this list. Also, if python3 is marked as stable, people will assume it is safe to switch to. That's what stable means. Back to my hole. Dale :-) :-) It's Gentoo and naturally users are like magpies, they like everything newest, highest and shiniest. Yep and they will mess up not realizing what they are doing until it is to late. That's what some of us are worried about, the ones that are clueless. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/24/2010 11:47 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. I don't have strong feelings on whether having v3 installed by default is a big problem, but the last bit here probably should be addressed. The current news item only shows up for people with python 3.1 already installed. Would it make sense to have it show up for anybody with any version of python installed? Otherwise it is news after-the-fact. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. It could be argued that he is just assuming that users are intelligent enough to figure out that they need to mask python-3 if they do not want it on their systems. Basically this is a case of how much hand-holding do we want to do? William The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Should we advise users of stable to mask it, we will get a lot of pleas for help when Python-3 is required because many users will have forgotten all about package.mask In my view, its better to avoid these future unmasking issues as stable users tend to be very wary of unmasking things and let them have Python-3 unless they are already comfortable with the contents of /etc/ portage ... in which case they are not using stable anyway. -- Regards, Roy Bamford (Neddyseagoon) a member of gentoo-ops forum-mods trustees pgpivXFtPOgsk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-25 19:34:24 Roy Bamford napisał(a): On 2010.03.24 21:12, William Hubbs wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. It could be argued that he is just assuming that users are intelligent enough to figure out that they need to mask python-3 if they do not want it on their systems. Basically this is a case of how much hand-holding do we want to do? William The case where Python-3 cannot be used as the default Python is transitory (it may be a long time). Gentoo Python Project will soon start supporting setting Python 3 as main active version of Python. Currently about 57% of our packages from dev-python category are prepared. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 24 March 2010 17:43, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. Are you saying that you are just going to brush aside all concerns that have been voiced about this issue? You will upset a lot of people if you do that. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:43:56 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-24 17:57:35 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:43:56 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-24 17:56:48 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 24 March 2010 17:43, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. Are you saying that you are just going to brush aside all concerns that have been voiced about this issue? You will upset a lot of people if you do that. All valid concerns about text already included in the news item have been addressed. We don't need to include any unofficial recommendations. Proposed news item is better than no news item. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:14:44 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-24 17:57:35 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:43:56 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 24 March 2010 18:23, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-24 17:56:48 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 24 March 2010 17:43, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. Are you saying that you are just going to brush aside all concerns that have been voiced about this issue? You will upset a lot of people if you do that. All valid concerns about text already included in the news item have been addressed. We don't need to include any unofficial recommendations. I'll take that as a yes then, you are indeed disregarding the concerns and recommendations of your fellow Gentoo developers. CC'ing devrel because this is getting out of hand. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:14:44 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-24 17:57:35 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:43:56 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. I am still of the mind that telling users python3 is here is sufficient. Users should already know how to mask packages; I am unconvinced that this update is any different from any other update where I get a news item that foo is out; I don't want to use foo, so I mask foo. If you want to recommend masking python 3 yourself I suggest you blog about it. -A
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: On 24 March 2010 18:23, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-24 17:56:48 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 24 March 2010 17:43, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-23 20:28:38 Ben de Groot napisał(a): On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. Are you saying that you are just going to brush aside all concerns that have been voiced about this issue? You will upset a lot of people if you do that. All valid concerns about text already included in the news item have been addressed. We don't need to include any unofficial recommendations. I'll take that as a yes then, you are indeed disregarding the concerns and recommendations of your fellow Gentoo developers. Except he is under no obligation to follow said recommendations; he is the Python maintainer, not you. -A CC'ing devrel because this is getting out of hand. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:35:21 +0100 Ben de Groot yng...@gentoo.org wrote: I'll take that as a yes then, you are indeed disregarding the concerns and recommendations of your fellow Gentoo developers. CC'ing devrel because this is getting out of hand. Looks like an extremely productive thread... /me points at the dependency/python handling bugs filed by the python maintainer and unfixed for like 2+ weeks - http://tinyurl.com/yhlmcq8 I'd assume getting proper dependencies into the tree would make more sense than this pissing contest about a news item. Cheers, DN signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-24 18:32:37 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:14:44 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: 2010-03-24 17:57:35 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 17:43:56 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: Python maintainers do not recommend to mask Python 3. But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. People, who don't object to given suggestions, less often reply to them. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:32:37 -0700, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. I hate to get into the mix of this, but I suggest researching on vocal minority and/or silent majority - the most vocal ones on this thread are the minority of the population. I'm not attacking anyone, mind you. I haven't expressed anything on this thread but I'm ok with marking it stable and having concerned users mask it. The stages might get kinda funky with both python-2 and 3 on them, but..if they are not BROKEN, I don't care. -Jeremy
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 3/24/10 6:35 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: All valid concerns about text already included in the news item have been addressed. We don't need to include any unofficial recommendations. I'll take that as a yes then, you are indeed disregarding the concerns and recommendations of your fellow Gentoo developers. CC'ing devrel because this is getting out of hand. I think it's a purely technical issue. The arguments against Python 3 are mostly in the form I don't feel it's ready. If it can't be resolved on the list (some people want Python 3, some don't), shouldn't the council decide? The elected Gentoo Council decides on global issues and policies that affect multiple projects in Gentoo. Paweł Hajdan jr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Am 24.03.2010 18:45, schrieb Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis: 2010-03-24 18:32:37 Joshua Saddler napisał(a): On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 18:14:44 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. People, who don't object to given suggestions, less often reply to them. I am only a user and read this thread for quite some time. Because I use ~amd64 I already had python 3 on my screen to install. I knew that I don't need it and don't want it so I put it into package.mask. No harm done. I really don't see where the problem is at all. Publish a news message and let all users decide, package.mask is no black magic or rocket science . Just my 2 cent Greetings Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-24 18:51:48 Paweł Hajdan, Jr. napisał(a): On 3/24/10 6:35 PM, Ben de Groot wrote: All valid concerns about text already included in the news item have been addressed. We don't need to include any unofficial recommendations. I'll take that as a yes then, you are indeed disregarding the concerns and recommendations of your fellow Gentoo developers. CC'ing devrel because this is getting out of hand. I think it's a purely technical issue. The arguments against Python 3 are mostly in the form I don't feel it's ready. If it can't be resolved on the list (some people want Python 3, some don't), shouldn't the council decide? People, don't want Python 3, probably have already masked it. There is no reason to waste Council's time for decision on what sentence should be included in the news item. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 05:47:18PM +, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:32:37 -0700, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Really? I've seen a few people object, but not everyone in gentoo. Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. I hate to get into the mix of this, but I suggest researching on vocal minority and/or silent majority - the most vocal ones on this thread are the minority of the population. I'm not attacking anyone, mind you. I haven't expressed anything on this thread but I'm ok with marking it stable and having concerned users mask it. The stages might get kinda funky with both python-2 and 3 on them, but..if they are not BROKEN, I don't care. I tend to agree with this. I don't think it is right to force everyone to wait until most of the tree works with python3 before it goes stable. That is why python is slotted; it is possible to have both versions installed at the same time. If we have packages in the tree that are pulling in both versions of python but are not compatible with them, their dependencies need to be fixed. If users do not want python-3 on their systems, that is what /etc/portage/package.mask is for. If we are going to make everyone wait until python-3 works with most packages in the tree, let's un-slot all versionf of python and hard mask python-3. William pgpynPDRGw8JU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:04:51 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: People, don't want Python 3, probably have already masked it. There is no reason to waste Council's time for decision on what sentence should be included in the news item. Not the folks running the stable tree, because they don't know about it. They're not following the discussion here on -dev. They're going to get unpleasantly surprised when it shows up in their next world update. Include instructions on how to mask it if desired in the news item. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/24/2010 02:28 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:04:51 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesisarfre...@gentoo.org wrote: People, don't want Python 3, probably have already masked it. There is no reason to waste Council's time for decision on what sentence should be included in the news item. Not the folks running the stable tree, because they don't know about it. They're not following the discussion here on -dev. They're going to get unpleasantly surprised when it shows up in their next world update. Include instructions on how to mask it if desired in the news item. Will not masking python-3 cause anything to break in any way? Do users need to do anything to make python-2.6 or whatever the default interpreter (instructions for using eselect python are not given in the news item)? If the only potential issue is that users might have a few extra files installed that they don't need but which won't cause them problems, then I don't know that we need to instruct users to create masks. If having python-3 will cause stable users problems, then we probably shouldn't be stabilizing it anyway. Compared to the KDE 3-4 migration this is probably going to be a fairly minor issue for most stable users, unless we're expecting breakage. Rich
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 24 March 2010 19:41, Richard Freeman ri...@gentoo.org wrote: On 03/24/2010 02:28 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:04:51 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesisarfre...@gentoo.org wrote: People, don't want Python 3, probably have already masked it. There is no reason to waste Council's time for decision on what sentence should be included in the news item. Not the folks running the stable tree, because they don't know about it. They're not following the discussion here on -dev. They're going to get unpleasantly surprised when it shows up in their next world update. Include instructions on how to mask it if desired in the news item. Will not masking python-3 cause anything to break in any way? Do users need to do anything to make python-2.6 or whatever the default interpreter (instructions for using eselect python are not given in the news item)? If the only potential issue is that users might have a few extra files installed that they don't need but which won't cause them problems, then I don't know that we need to instruct users to create masks. If having python-3 will cause stable users problems, then we probably shouldn't be stabilizing it anyway. Compared to the KDE 3-4 migration this is probably going to be a fairly minor issue for most stable users, unless we're expecting breakage. Rich Did you even read the whole thread? And the other one named Packages pulling in python-3*, also they dont require it? -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 02:41:28PM -0400, Richard Freeman wrote: On 03/24/2010 02:28 PM, Joshua Saddler wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 19:04:51 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesisarfre...@gentoo.org wrote: People, don't want Python 3, probably have already masked it. There is no reason to waste Council's time for decision on what sentence should be included in the news item. Not the folks running the stable tree, because they don't know about it. They're not following the discussion here on -dev. They're going to get unpleasantly surprised when it shows up in their next world update. Include instructions on how to mask it if desired in the news item. Will not masking python-3 cause anything to break in any way? Do users need to do anything to make python-2.6 or whatever the default interpreter (instructions for using eselect python are not given in the news item)? I'm not the python maintainer, but as I understand it,python-2.6 will be the default interpretor until it is changed manually. If the only potential issue is that users might have a few extra files installed that they don't need but which won't cause them problems, then I don't know that we need to instruct users to create masks. AFAIK, this is the issue. If python-3 is installed, it will cause extra files to be installed, not justin python-3, but any packages that support both python-2 and python-3 will potentially get files installed for both versions of python. If having python-3 will cause stable users problems, then we probably shouldn't be stabilizing it anyway. AFAIK, the only problem we are debating about is the extra files being installed. William pgpeYHKQY34MQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Am 24.03.2010 19:03, schrieb William Hubbs: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 05:47:18PM +, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:32:37 -0700, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Really? I've seen a few people object, but not everyone in gentoo. Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. I hate to get into the mix of this, but I suggest researching on vocal minority and/or silent majority - the most vocal ones on this thread are the minority of the population. I'm not attacking anyone, mind you. I haven't expressed anything on this thread but I'm ok with marking it stable and having concerned users mask it. The stages might get kinda funky with both python-2 and 3 on them, but..if they are not BROKEN, I don't care. I tend to agree with this. I don't think it is right to force everyone to wait until most of the tree works with python3 before it goes stable. That is why python is slotted; it is possible to have both versions installed at the same time. If we have packages in the tree that are pulling in both versions of python but are not compatible with them, their dependencies need to be fixed. If users do not want python-3 on their systems, that is what /etc/portage/package.mask is for. If we are going to make everyone wait until python-3 works with most packages in the tree, let's un-slot all versionf of python and hard mask python-3. William Who said, that we are against a stable python-3 version? The main point (as already pointed out in my previous thread about python-3) is, that it is not in any way required or used. But there are still wrong dependencies (where Arfrever just closes bugs as invalid) and packages like the mentioned setuptools, which will always pull in python-3. Why should we pull in python-3 for ever user, force the usual user to install a useless python-3 and additional files in python-3 path for many python packages? The minimum would be to tell them, that this python version is currently useless and they have the option to mask it locally. And i really dont think, that the default stable user knows, that python-3 is not really needed and can be masked, usually the pulled in dependencies are required, so he will expect the same for python-3. -- Thomas Sachau Gentoo Linux Developer signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 08:57:20PM +0100, Thomas Sachau wrote: Am 24.03.2010 19:03, schrieb William Hubbs: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 05:47:18PM +, Jeremy Olexa wrote: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 10:32:37 -0700, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: But everyone else in Gentoo does, so . . . Really? I've seen a few people object, but not everyone in gentoo. Some Gentoo developers/users, who aren't Python maintainers, said that they didn't object to have Python 3 installed. They're in the minority, judging by the replies in this thread. I hate to get into the mix of this, but I suggest researching on vocal minority and/or silent majority - the most vocal ones on this thread are the minority of the population. I'm not attacking anyone, mind you. I haven't expressed anything on this thread but I'm ok with marking it stable and having concerned users mask it. The stages might get kinda funky with both python-2 and 3 on them, but..if they are not BROKEN, I don't care. I tend to agree with this. I don't think it is right to force everyone to wait until most of the tree works with python3 before it goes stable. That is why python is slotted; it is possible to have both versions installed at the same time. If we have packages in the tree that are pulling in both versions of python but are not compatible with them, their dependencies need to be fixed. If users do not want python-3 on their systems, that is what /etc/portage/package.mask is for. If we are going to make everyone wait until python-3 works with most packages in the tree, let's un-slot all versionf of python and hard mask python-3. William Who said, that we are against a stable python-3 version? The main point (as already pointed out in my previous thread about python-3) is, that it is not in any way required or used. But there are still wrong dependencies (where Arfrever just closes bugs as invalid) and packages like the mentioned setuptools, which will always pull in python-3. That is because setuptools works with both versions of python, and if a user wants both versions of python on their system they will need setuptools installed for both versions. You say there are wrong dependencies. How are they wrong? I mean, do the packages with dev-lang/python in their deps not work with both versions of python? If they don't, they need to be fixed. If they do, they are correct. Why should we pull in python-3 for ever user, force the usual user to install a useless python-3 and additional files in python-3 path for many python packages? The minimum would be to tell them, that this python version is currently useless and they have the option to mask it locally. And i really dont think, that the default stable user knows, that python-3 is not really needed and can be masked, usually the pulled in dependencies are required, so he will expect the same for python-3. If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. William pgpD4DbnmimhD.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. Not so cheerful, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. It could be argued that he is just assuming that users are intelligent enough to figure out that they need to mask python-3 if they do not want it on their systems. Basically this is a case of how much hand-holding do we want to do? William pgp50bYAOCUx5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: On 24 March 2010 21:25, William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: If we make it clear in the news item that python-3 cannot be used as the default python, so if users do not want it they should mask it, we have done our job imho. In other words, this is just a matter of informing users. We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. Not so cheerful, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer Another user here. Couldn't this issue with the news item be resolved by wording it differently? The way I've understood the python maintainers is that they don't want the news item to recommend masking it. So couldn't a compromise be phrasing along the lines of ... it is safe to mask python-3* at the moment... and perhaps also ... a news item will be released when python-3* will become necessary. To be honest I don't think the last bit is quite as relevant if people do pay heed to the fact that python-3* can be masked without any consequence. Can all parties agree to something of this sort? -- Zeerak Waseem pgphFNYVk8q45.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 16:12:55 -0500 William Hubbs willi...@gentoo.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 09:36:52PM +0100, Ben de Groot wrote: We agree that this is the minimum that should be done. But our Python lead stubbornly refuses to honor this reasonable request. On the other hand, I can see his point as well. The news item makes it very clear that python-3 cannot be the default python and that python-2 needs to be installed. Again, if it *cannot* be the default python, then it *should not* be installed by default, which is what will happen if it's marked stable and users aren't told to p.mask it. Even then, it'll likely get installed first, as users will probably learn about p.masking it only *after* they install it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
2010-03-04 19:38:12 Paweł Hajdan, Jr. napisał(a): On 3/4/10 7:22 PM, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: 'eselect python COMMAND --python3 [ARGUMENTS]' can be used to manage configuration of active version of Python 3. I'm confused by the above paragraph. I had to spend a longer while to see that it really means if you want to use eselect-python to manage your python3 configuration, pass the --python3 switch. Before that I wondered what is the meaning of COMMAND and ARGUMENTS. Would be nice to make it more clear. This paragraph is probably not needed for average users, so I will remove it. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. Stabilization has been delayed to 2010-04-21, but members of architecture projects can start testing now, to ensure that all potential problems have been found and fixed. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis Title: Python 3.1 Author: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain Posted: 2010-03-23 Revision: 1 News-Item-Format: 1.0 Display-If-Installed: =dev-lang/python-3.1* Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so Python 2 still needs to be installed. You can benefit from having Python 3 installed without setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python. Currently you should not set Python 3.1 as main active version of Python. When setting it becomes recommended, a separate news item will be created to notify users. Although Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python, you should run python-updater after installation of Python 3.1. By default, modules, which support both Python 2 and Python 3, are installed for both active version of Python 2 and active version of Python 3, when both Python 2 and Python 3 are installed. It is recommended to use a UTF-8 locale to avoid potential problems. Especially C and POSIX locales are discouraged. If locale has not been explicitly set, then POSIX locale is used, so you should ensure that locale has been set. Problems occurring only with non-UTF-8 locales should be reported directly to upstream developers of given packages. See http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/utf-8.xml for more information about UTF-8. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 23 March 2010 20:13, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: I'm attaching updated news item, which will be committed soon. As mentioned in the other thread, this news item should mention that users who do not need python-3 should mask it locally to prevent it from being pulled into the dependency graph. -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux Qt project lead developer
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org said: On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed. Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19. #python on Freenode still reads It's too early to use Python 3.x. Are they wrong? I'd believe them. Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code out there to Python 3 without problems? Doesn't seem that way. Has QA given their blessing to this? Absolutely not. Its actually the opposite. Until 90+% of the tree just works with the new version of python, it should not be stabilized. The stable tree should all Just Work together. Stabilizing python-3 at this point would be the equivalent of me stabilizing gcc-4.5 after its been in the tree for a few months and nothing else works with it. Sure, gcc works just fine, but it can't compile half of the tree. I hope everyone can see that this is a terrible idea and of no use to our stable users. If a stable user really needs Python-3, they will have the technical ability to unmask it and use it properly. -- Mark Loeser email - halcy0n AT gentoo DOT org email - mark AT halcy0n DOT com web - http://www.halcy0n.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/07/2010 07:11 PM, Mark Loeser wrote: Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org said: On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed. Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19. #python on Freenode still reads It's too early to use Python 3.x. Are they wrong? I'd believe them. Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code out there to Python 3 without problems? Doesn't seem that way. Has QA given their blessing to this? Absolutely not. Its actually the opposite. Until 90+% of the tree just works with the new version of python, it should not be stabilized. The stable tree should all Just Work together. Stabilizing python-3 at this point would be the equivalent of me stabilizing gcc-4.5 after its been in the tree for a few months and nothing else works with it. Sure, gcc works just fine, but it can't compile half of the tree. I hope everyone can see that this is a terrible idea and of no use to our stable users. If a stable user really needs Python-3, they will have the technical ability to unmask it and use it properly. +1 no need to stabilize experimental python, not even convinced it should be in ~arch yet (but package.masked for testing)
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/07/2010 07:11 PM, Mark Loeser wrote: Absolutely not. Its actually the opposite. Until 90+% of the tree just works with the new version of python, it should not be stabilized. The stable tree should all Just Work together. Stabilizing python-3 at this point would be the equivalent of me stabilizing gcc-4.5 after its been in the tree for a few months and nothing else works with it. Sure, gcc works just fine, but it can't compile half of the tree. Bad analogy in my opinion. You don't really want to mix and match gcc versions while compiling packages but with python packages you can continue installing and running under 2* just fine. If a stable package uses 2* it's not a blocker for 3*. I hope everyone can see that this is a terrible idea and of no use to our stable users. If a stable user really needs Python-3, they will have the technical ability to unmask it and use it properly. In my opinion python-3 should go stable when there's enough ebuilds needing it as a dependency. It doesn't need to nowhere near 90% of python packages in the tree. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/07/2010 07:32 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote: +1 no need to stabilize experimental python, not even convinced it should be in ~arch yet (but package.masked for testing) I don't think upstream considers python 3 experimental so when it can be installed side by side with 2.6 so that ebuilds don't break it belongs in ~arch. Regards, Petteri signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Sun, 07 Mar 2010 20:26:24 +0200 Petteri Räty betelge...@gentoo.org wrote: On 03/07/2010 07:32 PM, Samuli Suominen wrote: no need to stabilize experimental python, not even convinced it should be in ~arch yet (but package.masked for testing) I don't think upstream considers python 3 experimental so when it can be installed side by side with 2.6 so that ebuilds don't break it belongs in ~arch. Fine, then let's leave it in ~arch. Don't stabilize it yet. See below: Mark Loeser halc...@gentoo.org wrote: The stable tree should all Just Work together. That's why. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Thu, 4 Mar 2010 19:22:41 +0100 Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org wrote: Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python. Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported. When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users. So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there, SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app. Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of Python. (emphasis and grammar fix mine) So . . . why the heck are you stabilizing it? Please don't spam me or the other users by sticking us with a useless new version. Leave it in ~arch -- it's not at all necessary to force the upgrade by stabilizing it. We're completely dependent on the hundreds of upstream Python-coded projects to switch on their timetable. Forcing a useless Python version to be the default in Gento doesn't force *them* to write 3.x-compatible code. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 09:25, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: So . . . why the heck are you stabilizing it? Because 'stable' denotes that it works as intended, that it can be installed easily, etc. All of these are true now for python3. There are applications being written for it. We want to package those too. I'm fine with people masking it, and maybe we should make that easier somehow, but 3.x should definitely be stable. We're completely dependent on the hundreds of upstream Python-coded projects to switch on their timetable. Forcing a useless Python version to be the default in Gento doesn't force *them* to write 3.x-compatible code. It will *NOT* under this proposal be the default. Please formulate more carefully if you want to make an argument. Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:10:00 +0100 Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: Because 'stable' denotes that it works as intended, that it can be installed easily, etc. All of these are true now for python3. There are applications being written for it. We want to package those too. I'm fine with people masking it, and maybe we should make that easier somehow, but 3.x should definitely be stable. It does *not* work as intended. Here, since your selective quoting missed every point I made, lemme make 'em again: Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python. Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported. When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users. So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there, SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app. Like I said before, like it says *in the news item*, stuff does not work with it. How does that qualify as works as intended when it will not work with all my packages that use Python? If you believe stabilizing a package should be done in a vacuum, in an idealized world where no other package cares about another, then congrats, you're on the right track. Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of Python. This is in the friggin' news item itself. If it should not be used, then don't force stable users to install it. It will *NOT* under this proposal be the default. Please formulate more carefully if you want to make an argument. If it's stable, then users get it by default, assuming they run the stable tree. They install a recent stage3, build their system, run emerge -uD world. Bam, a useless version of Python is now installed. Nothing on their systems will use it, so it's bloat. but 3.x should definitely be stable No one has said yet why this is. So . . . direct question, gimme a direct answer: why? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 10:41, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python. Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported. When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users. So nothing uses it yet, and it's completely incompatible with 90% of the numerous python/pygtk apps already on my system, so it'll just sit there, SLOTted, doing nothing but taking up more space on my very limited SSD, while Python 2.6 is the version that's actually in use by every single app. Like I said before, like it says *in the news item*, stuff does not work with it. How does that qualify as works as intended when it will not work with all my packages that use Python? Because it's a frigging major revision that breaks some backwards compatibility! Currently Python 3.1 should *NOT* be set as [the] main active version of Python. This is in the friggin' news item itself. If it should not be used, then don't force stable users to install it. I don't want to force stable users to install it. I *do* however want to install it as part of the stable tree on some of my servers. And I don't think it's sensible that I have to force it to be stable somehow, I want my packagers to say, hey, we checked this and it should just work (for the intended purpose, which is NOT running code written for python2). If it's stable, then users get it by default, assuming they run the stable tree. They install a recent stage3, build their system, run emerge -uD world. Bam, a useless version of Python is now installed. Nothing on their systems will use it, so it's bloat. I agree that that's bad, but I do not agree that not stabilizing it is the right solution. No one has said yet why this is. So . . . direct question, gimme a direct answer: why? Because in my opinion stable means that the people who package this are stating that hey, we did some testing with this, it works with all of the other packages you have installed that want to use it. It does not mean everyone should have it installed, which is what it appears you think it means. Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/05/2010 01:41 AM, Joshua Saddler wrote: If it's stable, then users get it by default, assuming they run the stable tree. They install a recent stage3, build their system, run emerge -uD world. Bam, a useless version of Python is now installed. Nothing on their systems will use it, so it's bloat. In portage-2.1.7.x (current stable), there is support for pseudo-version-ranges in dependencies. This allows you use a dependency like dev-lang/python-3 in a package that doesn't support python3, and that will prevent it from getting pulled into the dependency graph. If a package that supports python3 gets pulled into the depedency graph, then either it's the user's responsibility to mask it or else we could provide the ability to disable python3 support with a USE flag setting. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, 5 Mar 2010 10:56:23 +0100 Dirkjan Ochtman d...@gentoo.org wrote: No one has said yet why this is. So . . . direct question, gimme a direct answer: why? Because in my opinion stable means that the people who package this are stating that hey, we did some testing with this, it works with all of the other packages you have installed that want to use it. Aaaand none of my packages that are installed want to use it. That's what I'm sayin'. Maybe if I ran ~arch they'd ask for Python 3.x, but I run stable, so *nothing* wants to use it. Every other stable user is in the same situation. You seem to be ignoring us, the stable users, in favor of rushing 3.x out of ~arch, like that makes some kind of perceived problem go away. It does not mean everyone should have it installed, which is what it appears you think it means. Yet that's the net effect -- everyone *will* have it installed. . . unless folks start getting crafty with pseudo version ranges, as Zac mentioned. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Fri, Mar 5, 2010 at 11:14, Joshua Saddler nightmo...@gentoo.org wrote: Aaaand none of my packages that are installed want to use it. That's what I'm sayin'. Maybe if I ran ~arch they'd ask for Python 3.x, but I run stable, so *nothing* wants to use it. Every other stable user is in the same situation. You seem to be ignoring us, the stable users, in favor of rushing 3.x out of ~arch, like that makes some kind of perceived problem go away. I *am* a stable user, and I do want to install python3 (without having to override keywords -- because my packager, the gentoo python team, says it works!). I recognize the cruft problem, but I don't think keeping things in unstable is the right solution for solving it, because they should IMO be orthogonal. Yet that's the net effect -- everyone *will* have it installed. . . unless folks start getting crafty with pseudo version ranges, as Zac mentioned. I guess we'll have to do that then. Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Friday 05 of March 2010 11:22:18 Dirkjan Ochtman wrote: I *am* a stable user, and I do want to install python3 (without having to override keywords -- because my packager, the gentoo python team, says it works!). I recognize the cruft problem, but I don't think keeping things in unstable It's testing :) Now on more serious note, ideally python could be treated just like any other non-leaf package (in dependency tree), just like library. In such case it's completely reasonable to stabilize the newest version of such 'library', especially when it's slotted and doesn't conflict in any way with the rest. However, because of being used by package manager, python is leaf application really and it's going to be immediately pulled for everyone. It would be nice if portage didn't automatically pull newest available packages with new SLOTs unless explicitly referenced in dependencies. That would have certainly caused python 3 stabilization to be a non issue. (@Zac is this greedy/non-greedy' behaviour you've talking some time ago?) Hmm, but that would also prevent automatic KDE 4.x - 4.y updates.. -- regards MM
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/05/2010 03:09 AM, Maciej Mrozowski wrote: Now on more serious note, ideally python could be treated just like any other non-leaf package (in dependency tree), just like library. In such case it's completely reasonable to stabilize the newest version of such 'library', especially when it's slotted and doesn't conflict in any way with the rest. However, because of being used by package manager, python is leaf application really and it's going to be immediately pulled for everyone. It won't be pulled in by sys-apps/portage dependencies which look like this: || ( dev-lang/python:2.8 dev-lang/python:2.7 dev-lang/python:2.6 =dev-lang/python-3 ) If you already have python:2.6 installed then it will not pull in a new slot. It would be nice if portage didn't automatically pull newest available packages with new SLOTs unless explicitly referenced in dependencies. That would have certainly caused python 3 stabilization to be a non issue. (@Zac is this greedy/non-greedy' behaviour you've talking some time ago?) Hmm, but that would also prevent automatic KDE 4.x - 4.y updates.. In portage-2.1.7.x (current stable), there is support for pseudo-version-ranges in dependencies. This allows you use a dependency like dev-lang/python-3 in a package that doesn't support python3, and that will prevent it from getting pulled into the dependency graph. If a package that supports python3 gets pulled into the depedency graph, then either it's the user's responsibility to mask it or else we could provide the ability to disable python3 support with a USE flag setting. -- Thanks, Zac
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 5 March 2010 12:24, Zac Medico zmed...@gentoo.org wrote: It won't be pulled in by sys-apps/portage dependencies which look like this: || ( dev-lang/python:2.8 dev-lang/python:2.7 dev-lang/python:2.6 =dev-lang/python-3 ) If you already have python:2.6 installed then it will not pull in a new slot. That means we would need to fix all packages that depend on python to use this style of dependency notation. Or do some eclass magic with NEED_PYTHON for example. And of course anyone with an unslotted dev-lang/python in their world file will still pull the useless version. Another possible solution is to rename the package to a unique string like dev-lang/python3, tho I agree that is sub-optimal. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 5 March 2010 12:24, Zac Medico zmed...@gentoo.org wrote: It won't be pulled in by sys-apps/portage dependencies which look like this: || ( dev-lang/python:2.8 dev-lang/python:2.7 dev-lang/python:2.6 =dev-lang/python-3 ) If you already have python:2.6 installed then it will not pull in a new slot. That means we would need to fix all packages that depend on python to use this style of dependency notation. Or do some eclass magic with NEED_PYTHON for example. And of course anyone with an unslotted dev-lang/python in their world file will still pull the useless version. Then they shouldn't have dev-lang/python in their world file then should they. Or should we start putting special magic rules around everywhere. Hell i'm sure I have useless crap in my world file, you don't see be bitching about being forced to upgrade some package I never use. If it is in there then it is my responsibility, not yours. Guys you should remember that we like to call gentoo a metadistribution [1]. Our users should be taking an active role in the maintenance of the own distro what we should be doing is saying yes we have determined this package to be stable. The news item should tell users they can safely mask python:3 if they wish. The only concern I have is all the []dev-lang/python [R]DEPENDs there are in the tree. They should be fixed to either be slotted or a dependency range. Thank god this will never happen again now that we have slot deps right? :| Alistair. [1] http://www.gentoo.org/main/en/about.xml [2] and by this I mean looking to see what packages are going to be installed and whether they really want to install them.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Sat, Mar 06, 2010 at 06:23:03AM +1300, Alistair Bush wrote: [...] Guys you should remember that we like to call gentoo a metadistribution [1]. Our users should be taking an active role in the maintenance of the own distro [...] As a user I have to thank you very much for this statement. These are exactly my thoughts whenever these lengthy discussions about changing some default setting crop up. The main reason I love gentoo is because it makes it easy to have everything my way. (Un)masking something is as simple as adding one line in /etc/portage/package.(un)mask, so I only marginally care about whether something is stable, testing or even package masked. As a side remark to all those who argue themselves to death in the cups useflag in default profile thread: The same applies to disabling and enabling useflags ;) Well I guess I should go back into hiding now. Regards, Andy pgpW5AE9gMdzR.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed. Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19. I'm attaching the news item for Python 3.1. -- Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis Title: Python 3.1 Author: Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis arfre...@gentoo.org Content-Type: text/plain Posted: 2010-03-04 Revision: 1 News-Item-Format: 1.0 Display-If-Installed: =dev-lang/python-3.1* Python 3 is a new major version of Python and is intentionally incompatible with Python 2. Many external modules have not been ported yet to Python 3, so currently Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python. Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported. When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users. 'eselect python COMMAND --python3 [ARGUMENTS]' can be used to manage configuration of active version of Python 3. Although Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python, users should run python-updater after installation of Python 3.1. By default, modules, which support both Python 2 and Python 3, are installed for both active version of Python 2 and active version of Python 3, when both Python 2 and Python 3 are installed. It is recommended to use a UTF-8 locale to avoid potential problems. Especially C and POSIX locales are discouraged. If locale has not been explicitly set, then POSIX locale is used, so users should explicitly set locale. Problems occuring only with non-UTF-8 locales should be reported directly to upstream developers of given packages. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 3/4/10 7:22 PM, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: Setting Python 3.1 as main active version of Python is currently unsupported. When it will change, a separate news item will be created to notify users. I'd suggest s/users/you 'eselect python COMMAND --python3 [ARGUMENTS]' can be used to manage configuration of active version of Python 3. I'm confused by the above paragraph. I had to spend a longer while to see that it really means if you want to use eselect-python to manage your python3 configuration, pass the --python3 switch. Before that I wondered what is the meaning of COMMAND and ARGUMENTS. Would be nice to make it more clear. Although Python 3.1 should not be set as main active version of Python, users should run python-updater after installation of Python 3.1. By default, Again, IMHO s/users/you, or please run. It is recommended to use a UTF-8 locale to avoid potential problems. Especially Link to the UTF-8 guide please? C and POSIX locales are discouraged. If locale has not been explicitly set, then POSIX locale is used, so users should explicitly set locale. Problems I'd suggest s/users/you, or maybe make sure you have set locale. occuring only with non-UTF-8 locales should be reported directly to upstream nit: occuring - occurring Paweł Hajdan jr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed. Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19. #python on Freenode still reads It's too early to use Python 3.x. Are they wrong? Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code out there to Python 3 without problems? Has QA given their blessing to this? Personally I want yes three times to see you continue with Python 3 stabilization. Sebastian
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On Thu, Mar 4, 2010 at 22:16, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: Are we at a point already where we can feed 90% of the Python 2.x code out there to Python 3 without problems? No, and that point will never come, but this is not a problem right now. Python 3 will be installed slotted, as an extra version, and it will not disturb the Python 2.x versions or any packages that don't work on 3.x (which are marked as such). I have this working on a bunch of boxes, and it hasn't caused me any problems so far. Cheers, Dirkjan
Re: [gentoo-dev] Python 3.1: Stabilization and news item
On 4 March 2010 22:16, Sebastian Pipping sp...@gentoo.org wrote: On 03/04/10 19:22, Arfrever Frehtes Taifersar Arahesis wrote: All problems, which were blocking stabilization of Python 3, have been fixed. Stabilization of Python 3.1.2 is currently scheduled on 2010-04-19. #python on Freenode still reads It's too early to use Python 3.x. Are they wrong? No, they are not wrong. Python 3 is useless for most users. At best it wastes resources by installing extra python-3 versions of packages that will never be used because python-2 is the default interpreter, and they have nothing that really needs python-3. It will also result in needless runs of python-updater. And it may result in breakage specific to python-3 which users would not run into if they had only version 2.x installed. We need some mechanism to prevent installation of python-3 on systems of unsuspecting users, and make sure it only gets installed when the user explicitly chooses to do so. Personally I am recommending people to locally mask python-3*. I think we should consider to add it to our package.mask, unless we can find some other solution. I am not against it being marked stable, but I am against having it pulled in on systems that don't need it. Cheers, -- Ben de Groot Gentoo Linux developer (qt, media, lxde, desktop-misc) __
