Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 16:58:31 -0600, Dale wrote: Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3? Of course, they have stated so themselves. KDE dropped the ball. This is the statement I disagreed with. Dropping support is a fact, based on a sound decision. This statement is you saying they were wrong, purely because their decision does not suit you. KDE 4 is workable, it's not as mature as 3.5 and I only switched a few months ago, but it is getting there and better in many respects. Diverting resources to work on an obsolete product would only slow the development of KDE 4. KDE 3 still works so what's the problem? It's not like they switched off KDE 3, they just stopped adding new features, which makes perfect sense to me. There are people in a position to fix and security issues that may arise, but that doesn't have to be KDE themselves, and wasn't always them in a past. -- Neil Bothwick Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere may be happy. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 16:58:31 -0600, Dale wrote: Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3? Of course, they have stated so themselves. KDE dropped the ball. This is the statement I disagreed with. Dropping support is a fact, based on a sound decision. This statement is you saying they were wrong, purely because their decision does not suit you. KDE 4 is workable, it's not as mature as 3.5 and I only switched a few months ago, but it is getting there and better in many respects. Diverting resources to work on an obsolete product would only slow the development of KDE 4. KDE 3 still works so what's the problem? It's not like they switched off KDE 3, they just stopped adding new features, which makes perfect sense to me. There are people in a position to fix and security issues that may arise, but that doesn't have to be KDE themselves, and wasn't always them in a past. You say they dropped support. I call it dropping the ball. Same thing. As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can get anyway. At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS while they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out. I don't think KDE will take that long but winders does. Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. You say KDE 4 is workable. For me, it isn't. If I log into KDE 4, I have to switch back to KDE 3 to do some of my normal day to day things. Some of the things I do can't be done in KDE 4 yet. They will be when they get the time to fix it but right now it doesn't work, for me or others on the KDE mailing list. The problems I ran into have already been discussed on the KDE mailing list and they say I just have to wait until it gets fixed, updated or just plain coded in. So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this. Nothing has changed. Who would have thunk it? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Dale wrote: You say they dropped support. I call it dropping the ball. Same thing. Sorry for butting in... As I understand it, KDE development is mostly driven by volunteers (like most OSS projects). Yes, some are probably paid/employed by interested parties but this doesn't really change the fact that there are limited resources that might be better to concentrate on the latest (and greatest). Not trying to be flame-baiting but, as with all OSS projects, if you don't like something, you can sharpen your hacking skills and contribute/fork/whatever to get what you want. Besides, comparing KDE with Microsoft is a bit unfair, don't you think? MS products is payed and supported through the sale of their software. KDE is free, unless you pay for support... Perhaps it's time to look around for something that suits you better? For me I like simplicity/minimalism and I've settled for xfce4. For the record I used to run K3b with a minimal kde-support environment (kdelibs, qt etc.), still under xfce4 of course, but I stopped using/removed it when KDE4 was enforced. Not that I have anything against qt4/KDE4 but it mandated installation of accessibility libs/utilities + the kitchen sink (why that would be required is beyond me; I thought accessibility was the exception and not the norm)... Again, just my opinion, not meaning to upset you, Dale, or anyone else... Best regards Peter K
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:20:34 -0600, Dale wrote: You say they dropped support. I call it dropping the ball. Same thing. No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a judgement by using negative terminology. As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can get anyway. At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS while they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out. I don't think KDE will take that long but winders does. You're comparing apples and oranges. With a paid OS, you are mainly paying for support and security updates, which you still get with a paid Linux distro. Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :) So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this. Nothing has changed. Who would have thunk it? Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue. -- Neil Bothwick A great many people mistake opinions for thoughts. -- Herbert V. Prochnow signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote: ... Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :) reasonable people = those who agree with me.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 21:41:51 +, Stroller wrote: reasonable people = those who agree with me. Or pay you lots of money, even if they can't write an email to save their life ;-) -- Neil Bothwick Synonym: a word you use when you can't spell the other one. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
pk wrote: Dale wrote: You say they dropped support. I call it dropping the ball. Same thing. Sorry for butting in... As I understand it, KDE development is mostly driven by volunteers (like most OSS projects). Yes, some are probably paid/employed by interested parties but this doesn't really change the fact that there are limited resources that might be better to concentrate on the latest (and greatest). Not trying to be flame-baiting but, as with all OSS projects, if you don't like something, you can sharpen your hacking skills and contribute/fork/whatever to get what you want. Besides, comparing KDE with Microsoft is a bit unfair, don't you think? MS products is payed and supported through the sale of their software. KDE is free, unless you pay for support... Perhaps it's time to look around for something that suits you better? For me I like simplicity/minimalism and I've settled for xfce4. For the record I used to run K3b with a minimal kde-support environment (kdelibs, qt etc.), still under xfce4 of course, but I stopped using/removed it when KDE4 was enforced. Not that I have anything against qt4/KDE4 but it mandated installation of accessibility libs/utilities + the kitchen sink (why that would be required is beyond me; I thought accessibility was the exception and not the norm)... Again, just my opinion, not meaning to upset you, Dale, or anyone else... Best regards Peter K And this is the same thing that has already been said before. Volunteer or paid, they dropped the ball. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 06:20:34 -0600, Dale wrote: You say they dropped support. I call it dropping the ball. Same thing. No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a judgement by using negative terminology. If they didn't drop the ball, then why is Redhat having to pick up that ball? If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to pick up that same ball. Yes, it is negative. It sure is because it has had a negative effect on others, not just me either. As bad as I hate M$, one thing I can say, they have never to my knowledge dropped support for a OS unless and until the replacement is fully functional and stable, as finctional and stable as windoze can get anyway. At least they don't leave people with a unsupported OS while they spend a year or two getting the new one ironed out. I don't think KDE will take that long but winders does. You're comparing apples and oranges. With a paid OS, you are mainly paying for support and security updates, which you still get with a paid Linux distro. I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions for themselves? Gentoo does? People donate to Gentoo. I don't think Gentoo would make a decision like this. Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :) Well, go join the KDE mailing lists. It's been said several times over there. So, KDE 3 is still not being supported even after all this. Nothing has changed. Who would have thunk it? Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue. And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security problems or they don't compile. I subscribe to -dev too. I see the last rites for them. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Stroller wrote: On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote: ... Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :) reasonable people = those who agree with me. Not really, those who said that BEFORE I started having problems at all. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Peter Ruskin wrote: On Sunday 10 January 2010 23:45:13 Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: On 10 Jan 2010, at 19:05, Neil Bothwick wrote: ... Most reasonable people agree that KDE should have supported KDE 3 for at least a few more months. Do you have a citation for that? Preferably one that doesn't define reasonable people as those that think KDE 3.5 should still be developed :) reasonable people = those who agree with me. Not really, those who said that BEFORE I started having problems at all. Dale Dale, I felt the same as you when they dropped KDE1 for 2, then again when they dropped KDE2 for 3 and now that they've dropped KDE3. We get used to a way of working and don't like the change. Having loved KDE1 I've got used to KDE3, even though some things don't work as well as in KDE1 - a lot of things have been included that weren't there before (K3B for instance). I've learnt to be irritated by this but accept it as inevitable. Again, I am being misunderstood. This is not because I don't like KDE 4. Even when it first came out and was buggy as heck, I thought it was cool. Heck, I'm looking forward to using KDE 4, whenever it works and does what I need a GUI to do. It's not change that bugs me at all. Just to clarify here, I'm not against KDE 4 at all. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:44:21 -0600, Dale wrote: No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a judgement by using negative terminology. If they didn't drop the ball, They didn't, they made a decision. You may not like that decision, but that does not make it a mistake (dropped the ball has a clear implication of a serious mistake). Look at how many people have jumped to side with you in this complaint then why is Redhat having to pick up that ball? If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to pick up that same ball. Red Hat are simply doing what they have already been paid to do. Do you really think they have a serious problem with this? Of course not, otherwise they would have made sure 3.5 development continued, they have the clout. I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions for themselves? Gentoo does? People donate to Gentoo. I don't think Gentoo would make a decision like this. The key word there is donate. They are not entering into a contract to supply a specific level of service, they are usually donating for what they have already received. I know I didn't start donating to Gentoo until I had been using it a while. Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue. And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security problems or they don't compile. I subscribe to -dev too. I see the last rites for them. Removed from where? From the portage tree maybe, but they have been moved to an overlay so they are still available to Gentoo users. -- Neil Bothwick If it doesn't fit, you're not using a big enough hammer. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sun, 10 Jan 2010 17:44:21 -0600, Dale wrote: No it's not. One is a bald statement of fact, the other contains a judgement by using negative terminology. If they didn't drop the ball, They didn't, they made a decision. You may not like that decision, but that does not make it a mistake (dropped the ball has a clear implication of a serious mistake). Look at how many people have jumped to side with you in this complaint Yea, they decided to drop the ball. WOW !! I don't NEED anyone on my side to state that point. They did what they did and you can call it anything you want. I call it dropping the ball and it is not going to change. Can you tell that yet? then why is Redhat having to pick up that ball? If KDE hadn't dropped the ball, then Redhat wouldn't have to pick up that same ball. Red Hat are simply doing what they have already been paid to do. Do you really think they have a serious problem with this? Of course not, otherwise they would have made sure 3.5 development continued, they have the clout. I realize that M$ is a paid OS but doesn't KDE receive contributions for themselves? Gentoo does? People donate to Gentoo. I don't think Gentoo would make a decision like this. The key word there is donate. They are not entering into a contract to supply a specific level of service, they are usually donating for what they have already received. I know I didn't start donating to Gentoo until I had been using it a while. Well, very little has changed. Most importantly, KDE 3.5 still works as well as it ever did. It was never gong to be developed any more anyway. As far as Gentoo dropping it from portage is concerned, the fix for that is editing one line of make.conf, which is hardly an onerous task. The KDE 3.5 ebuilds are still maintained, they've just moved to a different repository. This really is a non-issue. And some of the KDE 3 stuff is having to be removed either for security problems or they don't compile. I subscribe to -dev too. I see the last rites for them. Removed from where? From the portage tree maybe, but they have been moved to an overlay so they are still available to Gentoo users. But the packages in the overlay are not supported by KDE either. Again, same thing. Nothing has changed ! Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:16:05 -0600, Dale wrote: So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the ball here, KDE did. It's their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one. Yep, it is their ball. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to like it tho. No, but it doesn't mean you should keep complaining about it. It's their project and their choice. If you don't like it, ask for your money back. If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers? They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support contract. Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the ball? No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you think pays the other 38%. Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could have done. I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that? Wouldn't they like their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up after KDE? They want their paid people to do their job of supporting their customers. KDE are also supporting their customers, which do not include you (or me). By the way, I dropped hal. Maybe KDE will be next? Fine, that's your choice, just as it was KDE's choice to maximise the resources devoted to development of KDE4 by not diverting devs' time to KDE3. Maybe that's why KDE 4.4 is so much nicer to use than 4.3? -- Neil Bothwick Why doesn't onomatopoeia sound like what it means? signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 18:16:05 -0600, Dale wrote: So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the ball here, KDE did. It's their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one. Yep, it is their ball. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to like it tho. No, but it doesn't mean you should keep complaining about it. It's their project and their choice. If you don't like it, ask for your money back. Actually, I only told the OP, many many replies ago, that it was not Gentoo's fault that KDE was dropped. Then for some crazy reason it became my fault. It's not my fault at all. Any one who thinks so is wrong. I had NO part in the decision to drop KDE 3 support by KDE. If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers? They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support contract. Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the ball? No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you think pays the other 38%. So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3. OK. So what? I wish them the best of luck. KDE still stopped the support. Anything else you say will not change that fact. Again, Redhat is only picking it up because KDE isn't doing it. That's what you just said. If KDE was still supporting and developing KDE 3 then Redhat wouldn't have to do what KDE used to do. Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could have done. I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that? Wouldn't they like their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up after KDE? They want their paid people to do their job of supporting their customers. KDE are also supporting their customers, which do not include you (or me). It sure doesn't. I don't use Redhat. Honestly, I don't care what Redhat decides to support or not to support. It doesn't seem to affect me or Gentoo one little bit. By the way, I dropped hal. Maybe KDE will be next? Fine, that's your choice, just as it was KDE's choice to maximise the resources devoted to development of KDE4 by not diverting devs' time to KDE3. Maybe that's why KDE 4.4 is so much nicer to use than 4.3? Glad to hear they are working on KDE 4.4. Maybe it will work good enough for me to use one day soon. It looks promising to me. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:39:58 -0600, Dale wrote: No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you think pays the other 38%. So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3. OK. So what? I wish them the best of luck. KDE still stopped the support. Anything else you say will not change that fact. Again, Redhat is only picking it up because KDE isn't doing it. That's what you just said. It's not what I said. Red Hat commit to support all software they supply, irrespective of upstream decisions. It is reasonable to assume that the distros that employ and pay KDE developers are happy with the way things are going, otherwise they would discontinue their support. -- Neil Bothwick What did the first man to discover you can get milk from cows think he was doing? - anon. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Sat, 09 Jan 2010 08:39:58 -0600, Dale wrote: No, it was the decision Red Hat made before they sold distros with X year support contracts, to provide a guaranteed level of support to their customers. Someone mentioned that 62% of KDE devs are unpaid, who do you think pays the other 38%. So they did make the decision to continue support for KDE 3. OK. So what? I wish them the best of luck. KDE still stopped the support. Anything else you say will not change that fact. Again, Redhat is only picking it up because KDE isn't doing it. That's what you just said. It's not what I said. Red Hat commit to support all software they supply, irrespective of upstream decisions. It is reasonable to assume that the distros that employ and pay KDE developers are happy with the way things are going, otherwise they would discontinue their support. Can you accept the fact that KDE dropped support for KDE 3? Why is this so hard for you to accept? That is all that I said and this is enough. KDE DROPPED SUPPORT. End of story. I don't' care what Redhat or any other distro did. KDE dropped the ball. Paid or not, they dropped support for KDE 3. Jeez! Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Friday 08 January 2010 00:25:03 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote: I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. [snip] [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. Ahem coughcough I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2] [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist. Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde- sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ?? Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions of RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport useful kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at least deal with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new features to KDE-3.5 though. There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things usually work out there in the marketplace But KDE still dropped the support tho? That was my point. It wasn't Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it was KDE that dropped it. Now to this question, will what Redhat is doing ever make it to the kde-sunset overlay? Or will that be so far out that KDE 4 will finally be ready by that time? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Friday 08 January 2010 10:06:27 Dale wrote: Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions of RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport useful kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at least deal with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new features to KDE-3.5 though. There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things usually work out there in the marketplace But KDE still dropped the support tho? That was my point. It wasn't Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it was KDE that dropped it. Yes, upstream stopped maintaining KDE. Which leaves RH without an upstream maintainer, so RH will likely step in to fill the breach. They made promises to their customers and they do tend to keep their promises. Now to this question, will what Redhat is doing ever make it to the kde-sunset overlay? Or will that be so far out that KDE 4 will finally be ready by that time? That's totally up to whoever steps up to the plate and decides to do some maintenance on kde-sunset. RH publishes their patches per the GPL so if the kde-sunset maintainer decides to apply the patches then you will benefit. If the kde-sunset maintainer does not apply the patches, or if there is no kde- sunset maintainer, then you will not benefit. The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you. None of this has any definite predictions surrounding it. It all totally depends on someone having the balls to maintain kde-sunset and actually doing so. Maybe KDE-3.5 users get lucky and someone decides to fork the project and breathe new life into it - that could even be you. The only actual reason you have not forked and maintain KDE-3.5 is because you have not decided to do so. -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:06, Dale wrote: ... But KDE still dropped the support tho? That was my point. It wasn't Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it was KDE that dropped it. 62% of KDE's developers are unpaid volunteers. [1] We program for the sheer joy and fun that comes out of putting out such an awesome product. This has nothing to do with market share, mind share, corporate attention, or any other outside influence. [2] Stroller. [1] https://fossbazaar.org/?q=content/differences-between-paid-and-volunteer-foss-contributors [2] http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you. I had my first patch accepted to an upstream project this week. It was only about 70 lines of Perl (and some of those were basically just refactoring what the author had already written into a different function, so that my new code could call it, too), but not only was it *extremely* gratifying to be accepted upstream, it also showed me that the barrier to contributing to OSS is really very low. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Friday 08 January 2010 12:34:39 Stroller wrote: On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:23, Alan McKinnon wrote: ... The kde-sunset maintainer could even be you. I had my first patch accepted to an upstream project this week. It was only about 70 lines of Perl (and some of those were basically just refactoring what the author had already written into a different function, so that my new code could call it, too), but not only was it *extremely* gratifying to be accepted upstream, it also showed me that the barrier to contributing to OSS is really very low. Most people have never had code accepted upstream simply because they never tried. When they do try for the first time, they often have a positive experience, like you did. There are exceptions of course, like the mainline kernel (those dudes are strict) and nagios (that dude is an ass) but most maintainers are grateful when users want to contribute -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Stroller wrote: On 8 Jan 2010, at 08:06, Dale wrote: ... But KDE still dropped the support tho? That was my point. It wasn't Redhat, Gentoo, SuSe or some other distro or even me that dropped it, it was KDE that dropped it. 62% of KDE's developers are unpaid volunteers. [1] We program for the sheer joy and fun that comes out of putting out such an awesome product. This has nothing to do with market share, mind share, corporate attention, or any other outside influence. [2] Stroller. [1] https://fossbazaar.org/?q=content/differences-between-paid-and-volunteer-foss-contributors [2] http://www.kde.org/announcements/gfresponse.php Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers. They dropped the support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not happy about it. Some were pissed and switched to something else, I heard some went to Fluxbox because it was quick to install and light. Some are trying to get by with KDE 4. Some like me are trying to continue using KDE 3 until KDE 4 is able to step up to the plate. Isn't Gentoo based on all volunteers? You think Gentoo would just drop portage like KDE dropped KDE 3? From my understanding, even some really old versions of portage will still work. I could test this theory by using my old Gentoo 1.4 CD on a test install. So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the ball here, KDE did. If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Saturday 09 January 2010 00:04:28 Dale wrote: Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers. They dropped the support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not happy about it. Dale, FFS, please stop whinging about KDE-3 This is getting like an old record stuck in a groove... -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:04:28 -0600, Dale wrote: So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the ball here, KDE did. It's their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one. If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers? They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support contract. Gentoo and KDE have given you far more than you paid for, ungrateful whining only makes you look bad. -- Neil Bothwick During a raid on a local chemist's shop, 2000 Viagra tablets were stolen Police are looking for hardened criminals! signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Saturday 09 January 2010 00:04:28 Dale wrote: Honestly, I don't care if it is 100% volunteers. They dropped the support and a LOT of people, including me, are at the very least not happy about it. Dale, FFS, please stop whinging about KDE-3 This is getting like an old record stuck in a groove... Well, I didn't like being told that it was my fault that support was dropped. I didn't even know it was dropped until it was already done. I didn't realize that this would have to be replied to this many times for the facts to be understood. Apologies on my end at least. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Neil Bothwick wrote: On Fri, 08 Jan 2010 16:04:28 -0600, Dale wrote: So, as I have been saying all along, repeatedly, Gentoo did not drop the ball here, KDE did. It's their ball, they can do whatever they like with it. It doesn't matter how much you complain, if unpaid, volunteer developers want to work on the new stuff, that is their choice, and an unsurprising one. Yep, it is their ball. It doesn't mean that I or anyone else has to like it tho. If KDE didn't drop the ball then why is Redhat having to step up and do the job on the KDE developers? They aren't, they are doing the job they were paid to do by their customers. If you want continued, guaranteed support for KDE3, you have two choices: do it yourself or buy a copy of RHEL with a support contract. Gentoo and KDE have given you far more than you paid for, ungrateful whining only makes you look bad. Then that would be the decision Redhat made after KDE dropped the ball? Again, someone picking up after KDE and doing what they could have done. I wonder if Redhat likes having to do that? Wouldn't they like their PAID people to be doing something else besides picking up after KDE? Looks like I am still at fault for something I have no control whatsoever over. Maybe we should revive hal while we are at it. There must be a lot of people to blame there since there were so many complaining about it. That wasn't just me either. By the way, I dropped hal. Maybe KDE will be next? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On 6 Jan 2010, at 18:57, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote: ... Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Between KDE Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer development it's normal necessary to focus on the features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red Hat Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention. So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then Gentoo would still have it in the tree. If KDE is not supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security issues. Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it. What Redhat does most likely won't affect what Gentoo does. I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo. Where did I say KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? If you want to find fault, Dale, it's your fault for using free software you're not prepared to maintain. The source code is there - fix any bugs you have problems with. I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages. They just make ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them. I'm pretty sure you don't do development work on X, Y or Z, either. I'm all for attributing blame when devs make decisions I disagree with, but this is simply a matter of limited resources. I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. Sorry if you don't like it - this wasn't my decision, I'm just trying to explain. Either you or Alan are going to be disappointed that your preferred version doesn't get the attention you would like it to. Sorry it had to be you. Stroller. [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote: I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. [snip] [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. Ahem coughcough I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2] [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist. Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde- sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Alan McKinnon wrote: On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote: I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. [snip] [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. Ahem coughcough I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2] [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist. Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde- sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ?? Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Stroller wrote: On 6 Jan 2010, at 18:57, Dale wrote: Stroller wrote: On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote: ... Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Between KDE Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer development it's normal necessary to focus on the features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red Hat Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention. So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then Gentoo would still have it in the tree. If KDE is not supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security issues. Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it. What Redhat does most likely won't affect what Gentoo does. I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo. Where did I say KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? That was the question. Saying that Redhat or someone else is maintaining KDE is not the same as KDE maintaining it. If you want to find fault, Dale, it's your fault for using free software you're not prepared to maintain. The source code is there - fix any bugs you have problems with. My fault? I don't develop any software so is everything else my fault too? I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages. They just make ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them. I'm pretty sure you don't do development work on X, Y or Z, either. I'm all for attributing blame when devs make decisions I disagree with, but this is simply a matter of limited resources. I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. Sorry if you don't like it - this wasn't my decision, I'm just trying to explain. Either you or Alan are going to be disappointed that your preferred version doesn't get the attention you would like it to. Sorry it had to be you. Stroller. [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. And I'm sorry that they made the decision they made too. Thing about software, no one can force someone to use it. With windoze, you get IE whether you like it or not. You don't really have a *easy* choice there. If I don't like KDE, I can switch to something else. With things brealing like they are, that day may come. This point has been discussed a lot on the KDE mailing list. KDE dropped support for KDE 3.5. It wasn't Gentoo that dropped it. It wasn't any other distro either, it was KDE. Sorry you want to blame me or someone else for their decisions. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Friday 08 January 2010 00:25:03 Dale wrote: Alan McKinnon wrote: On Thursday 07 January 2010 21:19:27 Stroller wrote: I hope my above statements don't sound nasty, but you want 3.5, Alan [1] wants KDE 4. The various developers upstream of you and Alan - i.e. both KDE and Gentoo - don't have time to work on both. So they have each chosen where to spend their time, and that's on KDE 4. [snip] [1] Some hypothetical Alan who does not really exist. Ahem coughcough I *think*, but not sure, that I feel offended by being mythicalisized[2] [2] Some hypothetical word that truly does not exist. Lucky for us, the Red hats and SuSEs of this world will maintain at least critical security flaws in KDE-3.5 that Gentoo users can import into kde- sunset: those distros shipped KDE-3.5 and are still actively supported Should we also assume that Redhat and SuSE is doing that support, not KDE who is the one that dropped KDE 3.5 ?? Yes, that's reasonable. RH shipped KDE-3.5 with fully supported versions of RHEL, and those versions are still current. So just like RH backport useful kernel code into their shipped versions, we can expect RH to at least deal with critical security bugs. They likely will not add new features to KDE-3.5 though. There's no inside info here, I'm just stating the way these things usually work out there in the marketplace -- alan dot mckinnon at gmail dot com
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote: ... Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Dale Between KDE Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer development it's normal necessary to focus on the features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red Hat Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention. Stroller.
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Stroller wrote: On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote: ... Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Dale Between KDE Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer development it's normal necessary to focus on the features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red Hat Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention. Stroller. So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then Gentoo would still have it in the tree. If KDE is not supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security issues. Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it. What Redhat does most likely won't affect what Gentoo does. I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo. I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages. They just make ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
I'm also pretty sure that Gentoo doesn't do development work on Gnome, Fluxbox, Apache, MySql and other packages. They just make ebuilds and put them in the tree so people can use them. if there is something unconvenient with used on the software ,gentoo will talk to the authors still , right ? like ibus last time (i just heard it from my friend) ^^ 2010/1/6 Dale rdalek1...@gmail.com Stroller wrote: On 5 Jan 2010, at 23:33, Dale wrote: ... Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Dale Between KDE Gentoo, aren't most contributors volunteers? In volunteer development it's normal necessary to focus on the features that one needs most. I can really understand KDE's position that downstream distros - Red Hat Canonical both have paid developers - can continue maintenance on a codebase that is no longer receiving their primary attention. Stroller. So, KDE is maintaining KDE 3.5? If KDE is/was maintaining KDE 3.5 then Gentoo would still have it in the tree. If KDE is not supporting KDE 3.5 then Gentoo has to drop it, as things break and develop security issues. Again, this is not Gentoo's fault for not developing KDE 3.5, it is KDE that dropped it. What Redhat does most likely won't affect what Gentoo does. I don't use Redhat but I do use Gentoo. Dale :-) :-)
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Helmut Jarausch writes:
emerge @preserved-rebuild fails to do any updating since a single
(needed) package has been masked.
But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in
kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5 which has been masked.
Is it possible to tell emerge to do the other updates which don't need
this?
Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of
GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really
hard. (I do need kexi)
Well, it's still all there, not in the official Gentoo portage tree, but
in the kde-sunset overlay. Get it, unmask all the KDE 3.5 stuff, and all
should be fine again. See this guide for details:
http://www.linuxized.com/2009/11/how-to-keep-your-kde-3-5-after-its-
removed-gentoos-tree-using-the-kde-sunset-overlay/
weird ~ # eix kdnssd-avahi
* kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi
Available versions: (3.5) {M}0.1.2[1] {M}0.1.2-r1 {M}0.1.2-r1[1]
{arts debug elibc_FreeBSD xinerama}
Homepage:http://wiki.kde.org/tiki-
index.php?page=Zeroconf+in+KDE
Description: DNS Service Discovery kioslave using Avahi
(rather than mDNSResponder)
[1] kde-sunset /usr/local/portage/layman/kde-sunset
weird ~ # emerge -ptv kdnssd-avahi
These are the packages that would be merged, in reverse order:
Calculating dependencies... done!
[ebuild N] kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi-0.1.2-r1 USE=(-arts) -debug -
xinerama 739 kB [1]
[ebuild N] net-dns/avahi-0.6.24-r2 USE=dbus gdbm gtk ipv6 python
qt4 -autoipd -bookmarks -doc -howl-compat -mdnsresponder-compat -mono -qt3
-test 1,090 kB [1]
[ebuild N] dev-libs/libdaemon-0.13-r1 USE=-doc -examples 360 kB
[0]
Total: 3 packages (3 new), Size of downloads: 2,188 kB
Portage tree and overlays:
[0] /usr/portage/tree
[1] /usr/local/portage/layman/kde-sunset
Wonko
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
On Tue, 05 Jan 2010 16:35:46 +0100 (CET), Helmut Jarausch wrote: But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5 which has been masked. Unmask it. Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really hard. (I do need kexi) It's not been totally dropped, but moved out of the main portage tree to the kde-sunset overlay. Add that overlay and your problem will disappear. -- Neil Bothwick If it was easy, the hardware people would take care of it. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @preserved-rebuild EVEN IF some needed package is masked
Helmut Jarausch wrote: Hi, emerge @preserved-rebuild fails to do any updating since a single (needed) package has been masked. But I do need to keep kdelibs:3.5 which pulls in kde-misc/kdnssd-avahi:3.5 which has been masked. Is it possible to tell emerge to do the other updates which don't need this? Dropping kde:3.5 too early is one of the biggest disappointsment of GenToo! For someone who needs some package depending on it, it's really hard. (I do need kexi) Many thanks for some help, Helmut. Gentoo wasn't at fault here. KDE was the one that dropped the ball. Gentoo had to follow the knuckle heads at KDE tho. Dale :-) :-)
