Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 02:12:39 +0200, Leon Brooks [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Omar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Saul Goode a écrit : The menus that you obtain with a right-click have a dotted line across the top. If you click on that dotted line, a menu window is created with just that sub-menu. By right-clicking on Edit and selecting the dotted line at the top of the Edit-Paste As sub-menu, you will create a menu dialog that will make the Paste As New Image command just a mouse-click away at all times. Such tear-offs lose their utility if commands are all clumped together on a top-level menu. For this reason, I question the wisdom of the GNOME HIG discouraging nesting of menus (or at least the idea that three levels is excessive, especially if the menu bar is itself to be considered a menu). DON'T touch/remove TEAR-OFF menu! NEVER! :) This is one of the best Gimp's UI concept here. ps: sorry to play the intruder in this ML :) I was worth it. (-: My sister-in-law uses that feature extensively. She had to use PhotoShop recently; the moaning wailing which ensued about such features' absence was incredible. She does professional photography. Her site is at http://www.goldenlight.bur.st/ Ahh! More hidden treasure. Nice feature , shame there is absolutely nothing in a line of - to suggest this actually does something. I always thought it was a gimp oddity and someone had decided to style the menus this way. In fact it is a _menu entry_ . Conclusion: how about giving it a meaningful label rather than . Tear off would be enough to raise the curiosity and once clicked this excellent feature would be imediately available to all users. Thanks to Saul for explaining it's existance to me. and , yes, I agree about HIG and not nesting menus , that was one of my main points when I started this discussion. The Paste As .. menu is one level too many. Glad we are all agreed. ;) ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
Hi, On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 11:07 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Conclusion: how about giving it a meaningful label rather than . Tear off would be enough to raise the curiosity and once clicked this excellent feature would be imediately available to all users. Suggest that to the GTK+ developers then. This is not a GIMP feature, it's provided by GTK+ (but disabled by default IIRC). I strongly disagree with adding a label to it though as that would IMO clutter the menus too much. This is a power-user feature and it should be sufficient to mention it in the user manual. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On 10/19/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Nice feature , shame there is absolutely nothing in a line of- to suggest this actually does something.To me, if I can select a menu item, it does something.Personally I had no trouble discovering this feature. I agree that it could be improved, and it should be non-textual (as in, it shouldn't look like any other menu entry.) The --- seems fairly obvious to me, though - perforation marks showing that you can 'tear off here' ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
Checking the UI again, if there is any confusion as to the function of , shouldn't get a tooltip saying 'Tear off this menu'? ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 19:52 +0930, David Gowers wrote: Checking the UI again, if there is any confusion as to the function of , shouldn't get a tooltip saying 'Tear off this menu'? As Sven said, discussing this here makes no sense whatsoever, please bring it up on a gtk mailing list. ciao, --mitch ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Specifically simplifying user interaction
Michael Natterer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 19:52 +0930, David Gowers wrote: Checking the UI again, if there is any confusion as to the function of , shouldn't get a tooltip saying 'Tear off this menu'? As Sven said, discussing this here makes no sense whatsoever, please bring it up on a gtk mailing list. Hokay, but before we start there, is there a particular outcome which GIMP wants from the discussion? Shaded bar instead of dash-dash? Tool-tips? Something else? Something specific? We may just get what we ask for, so let's ask for something particularly useful, no? Cheers; Leon ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Specifically simplifying user interaction
Hi, On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 20:21 +0800, Leon Brooks wrote: Hokay, but before we start there, is there a particular outcome which GIMP wants from the discussion? Shaded bar instead of dash-dash? Tool-tips? Something else? Something specific? I don't see any need for a change here. IMO the visual appearance of the tear-off menus is quite good. It's unobtrusive and still recognizable, especially to those who have worked with other toolkits that support this concept. And the look reminds me of perforation marks, a very good metaphor to use here. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Specifically simplifying user interaction
On 10/19/06, Leon Brooks wrote: Hokay, but before we start there, is there a particular outcome which GIMP wants from the discussion? Shaded bar instead of dash-dash? Tool-tips? Something else? Something specific? I agree with Sven, however, having tooltip would be helpful. Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
Hi, On Thu, 2006-10-19 at 16:22 +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A short helpful text item like tear-off would not take make the menu a single pixel larger nor would it clutter the menu more than a meainingless line of hyphens. Yes, it would. It would distract the user's view from the actual menu entries and makes it harder to quickly scan the menu. The tear along the dotted line that the current entry presumably is supposed to represent has no meaning until you are aware of the feature and what it is called. There is not analogy elsewhere this I am aware off that would cause a user to understand this otherwise. Well, all other toolkits that have tear-off menus do it pretty much the same way and use pretty much the same visual representation. Having a tooltip on the menu might be a good idea. Please propose it to the GTK+ developers and stop discussing this here any further. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:19 +0200, Sven Neumann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all other toolkits that have tear-off menus 'still interested to know what all the other toolkits are. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On 10/20/06, gg wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:19 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: all other toolkits that have tear-off menus 'still interested to know what all the other toolkits are. Qt Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Specifically simplifying user interaction
Omar a écrit : Alexandre Prokoudine a écrit : On 10/19/06, Leon Brooks wrote: Hokay, but before we start there, is there a particular outcome which GIMP wants from the discussion? Shaded bar instead of dash-dash? Tool-tips? Something else? Something specific? I agree with Sven, however, having tooltip would be helpful. Reading the manual would be helpful for the noob, too! :) Or it would be helpful to take the user for smarter than he is. (my own approach(copyleft) ) Okay, it's not politically correct. cheers -Omar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
Omar a écrit : Alexandre Prokoudine a écrit : On 10/20/06, gg wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:19 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: all other toolkits that have tear-off menus 'still interested to know what all the other toolkits are. Qt OpenMotif :) -Omar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 02:24:48AM +0200, Omar wrote: Omar a ?crit : Alexandre Prokoudine a ?crit : On 10/20/06, gg wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:19 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: all other toolkits that have tear-off menus 'still interested to know what all the other toolkits are. Qt OpenMotif :) And it's not just unix stuff, Microsoft Office has had them for a while too. IIRC they do have a tooltip for the -- bit. -Yosh ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [GIMP] Suggestion to simplify user interaction
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:36:29 +0200, Manish Singh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Oct 20, 2006 at 02:24:48AM +0200, Omar wrote: Omar a ?crit : Alexandre Prokoudine a ?crit : On 10/20/06, gg wrote: On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 17:35:19 +0200, Sven Neumann wrote: all other toolkits that have tear-off menus 'still interested to know what all the other toolkits are. Qt OpenMotif :) And it's not just unix stuff, Microsoft Office has had them for a while too. IIRC they do have a tooltip for the -- bit. -Yosh ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer Qt , really? I just ran up thre K* progs and dont see any sign of it. :? Long time since I went anywhere near M$ Orafice , but if they use --- it must be right :P thanks for educating me. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Specifically simplifying user interaction
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 02:19:43 +0200, Omar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reading the manual would be helpful for the noob, too! Which manual ? Gimp? This is not gimp. GTK, Gnome , the Linux manual? This type of comment is either just trying to be smart or a cop-out. Users, noob or otherwise, should not need to RTFM just to use the menu! To suggest they do means the interface is failing. This menu issue can be dropped here since it's a gtk feature but this attitude needs a Cntl-X . Calling things power-user features because they are obscure or smuggly saying RTFM when the interface is cryptic will not make Gimp (or anything else) easier to use. This echos the Corrective Rotation discussion. Some really good features where Gimp could shine are being hidden from the user by poor interface design compounded by a reluctance to review some decisions that may not have been the best choice. If the user sees something he cant use or cant understand he may be expected to search a specific chapter in the manual to explain it. If a feature is not apparent he's not going to have any reason to search. Also NO-ONE is going to pick up the manual and read it A-Z , let's not dream. Neither should this be necessary. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
