Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 03/14/2011 11:59 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: Hi, This decision, as I see it, change the release date from within months to within some weeks - May I ask for the calculations that led you to the conclusion that we are weeks away from a release? I haven't done the math yet, but I still expect us to be months away from a release. I hope you have in mind that Translators have to know about so they can update translations as possible, as well. At some reasonable point before the release, a string freeze status for GIMPshould be set (even if a few string chanegs are to happen after that). Thanks for the reminder. We should probably enter a soft string freeze soon... Other than translation, we have to work the Python bindings so there are no functionality regressions, (whch includes the ability to work with layer groups) - so to the above list of bugs, we shuld at least have one more about this task. (this also depends on being able to transform layer groups). Not including API to work with layer groups in Python is not a regression, it's just missing functionality in one of the scripting languages. It is unfortunate if GIMP 2.8 will be released without layer groups support in Python, but the alternative is worse: not releasing GIMP 2.8 at all. And we should arrange for the Python bindings to be automatically generated from the PDB rather than wasting man-weeks on manually keeping it up to date. Not an easy task perhaps, but the only sensible one. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 15 March 2011 07:43, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: Not including API to work with layer groups in Python is not a regression, it's just missing functionality in one of the scripting languages. It is unfortunate if GIMP 2.8 will be released without layer groups support in Python, but the alternative is worse: not releasing GIMP 2.8 at all. And we should arrange for the Python bindings to be automatically generated from the PDB rather than wasting man-weeks on manually keeping it up to date. Not an easy task perhaps, but the only sensible one. Long term, bindings should of course be generated (or rather be dynamic using pygobject, when/if possible). However I need layer groups exposed for the Python API in order to support layer groups in OpenRaster, so I will probably do these bindings for 2.8. Just need to find the time. Do we have a bug open about this issue? -- Jon Nordby - www.jonnor.com ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 4:43 AM, Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com wrote: On 03/14/2011 11:59 AM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: Hi, This decision, as I see it, change the release date from within months to within some weeks - May I ask for the calculations that led you to the conclusion that we are weeks away from a release? I haven't done the math yet, but I still expect us to be months away from a release. I hope you have in mind that Translators have to know about so they can update translations as possible, as well. At some reasonable point before the release, a string freeze status for GIMPshould be set (even if a few string chanegs are to happen after that). Thanks for the reminder. We should probably enter a soft string freeze soon... Other than translation, we have to work the Python bindings so there are no functionality regressions, (whch includes the ability to work with layer groups) - so to the above list of bugs, we shuld at least have one more about this task. (this also depends on being able to transform layer groups). Not including API to work with layer groups in Python is not a regression, it's just missing functionality in one of the scripting languages. It is unfortunate if GIMP 2.8 will be released without layer groups support in Python, but the alternative is worse: not releasing GIMP 2.8 at all. And we should arrange for the Python bindings to be automatically generated from the PDB rather than wasting man-weeks on manually keeping it up to date. Not an easy task perhaps, but the only sensible one. Scripts which previously interated through layers are currently not working. That is a regression. Possibly making layer groups transform work seamlessly. I will do my best to include such support personally over the next few days - allright if you think it shoud not be a blocker. The python bindings do work from the PDB. The current matter with layer groups is that they introduce a new kind o f object, and the Python bindngs on't work with simple integer IDs that the PDB use - there must be a corresponding object on the Python side. (it won't cost a single man week to integrate it - but I've been so absetn I ahven't weven checked the PDB calls available to deal with layer groups yet). js -- / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: Hi, This decision, as I see it, change the release date from within months to within some weeks - I hope you have in mind that Translators have to know about so they can update translations as possible, as well. At some reasonable point before the release, a string freeze status for GIMPshould be set (even if a few string chanegs are to happen after that). Speaking of which, I'd love to know what on Earth the reasoning behind putting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556884 off the milestones is supposed to mean. The prerequisite is in place, making the messages translatable is very little work. So why are we going to ship 2.8 with the horrible mix of English/localized UI once again? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Announcing AdaptableGIMP
On Sat, Mar 12, 2011 at 1:59 AM, Michael Terry wrote: We would like to announce the availability of the initial release of AdaptableGIMP, a modified version of GIMP that integrates new social, community-based customization features into the application. I'm afraid that AdaptableGIMP is a new version of GIMP line as well as no other statement about relation of the project to, er, vanilla GIMP leaves a lot of room for speculations :) Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 03/15/2011 10:44 AM, Jon Nordby wrote: On 15 March 2011 07:43, Martin Nordholtsense...@gmail.com wrote: Not including API to work with layer groups in Python is not a regression, it's just missing functionality in one of the scripting languages. It is unfortunate if GIMP 2.8 will be released without layer groups support in Python, but the alternative is worse: not releasing GIMP 2.8 at all. And we should arrange for the Python bindings to be automatically generated from the PDB rather than wasting man-weeks on manually keeping it up to date. Not an easy task perhaps, but the only sensible one. Long term, bindings should of course be generated (or rather be dynamic using pygobject, when/if possible). However I need layer groups exposed for the Python API in order to support layer groups in OpenRaster, so I will probably do these bindings for 2.8. Just need to find the time. Do we have a bug open about this issue? Take a look at Bug 624303 - Introduce an item class in PyGIMP https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=624303 / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 03/15/2011 12:35 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: Scripts which previously interated through layers are currently not working. That is a regression. It sure sounds like one, please file a bug report and put it on the 2.8 milestone with a scripts that allows the regression to be easily reproduced. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 03/15/2011 02:12 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Mon, Mar 14, 2011 at 1:59 PM, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: Hi, This decision, as I see it, change the release date from within months to within some weeks - I hope you have in mind that Translators have to know about so they can update translations as possible, as well. At some reasonable point before the release, a string freeze status for GIMPshould be set (even if a few string chanegs are to happen after that). Speaking of which, I'd love to know what on Earth the reasoning behind putting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556884 off the milestones is supposed to mean. The prerequisite is in place, making the messages translatable is very little work. So why are we going to ship 2.8 with the horrible mix of English/localized UI once again? There are thousands of other small things we could spend time on rather than working on the highest prioritized features dictated by our roadmap. But if we do, it might very well go another 9 years without any support for high bit depths in GIMP. Let's please focus on what's important, and compared to high bit depths, that is not important. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote: Speaking of which, I'd love to know what on Earth the reasoning behind putting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556884 off the milestones is supposed to mean. The prerequisite is in place, making the messages translatable is very little work. So why are we going to ship 2.8 with the horrible mix of English/localized UI once again? There are thousands of other small things we could spend time on rather than working on the highest prioritized features dictated by our roadmap. But if we do, it might very well go another 9 years without any support for high bit depths in GIMP. It looks like you didn't even bother looking at the bug report in question. Right now all it takes is green lights for someone (e.g. me) to enable the messages for translation and then let translators do their work. With all respect due, what 9 years are you talking about? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Enabling a 2.8 release: planning for a 2.10 release
On 03/15/2011 06:38 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:25 PM, Martin Nordholts wrote: Speaking of which, I'd love to know what on Earth the reasoning behind putting https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=556884 off the milestones is supposed to mean. The prerequisite is in place, making the messages translatable is very little work. So why are we going to ship 2.8 with the horrible mix of English/localized UI once again? There are thousands of other small things we could spend time on rather than working on the highest prioritized features dictated by our roadmap. But if we do, it might very well go another 9 years without any support for high bit depths in GIMP. It looks like you didn't even bother looking at the bug report in question. Right now all it takes is green lights for someone (e.g. me) to enable the messages for translation and then let translators do their work. With all respect due, what 9 years are you talking about? I did look at it, and I saw that mitch said there was a problem, then you said there wasn't a problem, and now developer needs to verify that there maybe isn't a problem. It is harder to ignore small things like this, but they add up, and as I said: we need to stop working on what is not important and not be trapped in working on things like this. I was referring to the age of Bug 74224 - Add support for 16 bits per channel... / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? Charlie - Original Message From: GIMP bugzi...@gnome.org To: charlieco...@yahoo.com Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 9:05:01 AM Subject: [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 GIMP | General | git master --- Comment #53 from Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com 2011-03-14 08:04:28 UTC --- We really must release 2.8 now, let's look at this for 2.10 instead. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email --- You are receiving this mail because: --- You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Charlie De charlieco...@yahoo.com wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? This is very sad. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Jacek Poplawski jacekpoplaw...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Charlie De charlieco...@yahoo.com wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? This is very sad. I am not among the people working on GIMP itself - in the context of GIMP is primarily do work on GEGL - but I can tell both of you that this type of email does not serve to motivate any developer. At best they ignore it; at worst they get discouraged and decide that spending some of their spare time contributing to the common good/free software/GIMP is not worth it. /Øyvind Kolås -- «The future is already here. It's just not very evenly distributed» -- William Gibson http://pippin.gimp.org/ http://ffii.org/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:20:14PM +, Øyvind Kolås wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Jacek Poplawski jacekpoplaw...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Charlie De charlieco...@yahoo.com wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? This is very sad. I am not among the people working on GIMP itself - in the context of GIMP is primarily do work on GEGL - but I can tell both of you that this type of email does not serve to motivate any developer. At best they ignore it; at worst they get discouraged and decide that spending some of their spare time contributing to the common good/free software/GIMP is not worth it. interesting, this because when GIMP was being developed by many people seemingly happily so, it was the quality of the patch or plug-in or the script, not the flavor of the ass-kissing or the style of the request. it is the left brained people (artists and such) who are in need of constant appreciation and reassurance to happily do the right thing or to continue to do the job as was described but the right brained people, the more technically adept don't need so much of the obvious appreciation. this easy description of two different kinds of people starts to fail when a right brained seems to be needing the reassurance that the artistic sort do but actually just wants enough credit to continue their work and pay bills and to participate in the community that they are or have been serving in. i have worked with actors, for instance -- in a place where actors should be, btw. it doesn't take much to tell these creative sort that they are really doing well, etc etc. no, actually it does take much. it takes familiarity with their work and knowlege of their improvement. interestingly enough, the right-brainers enjoy this also. they often fail to know how to receive the appreciation. something has interfered with the right-brained people having access to both bugzilla and the source, perhaps. maybe actors where they should not be? i have been waiting for more than a week for a bug to be closed which should be closed, for instance. it might be the only way to communicate with the developers right now, but if the developers are not looking at bugzilla, then they will probably have to manage upset contributors with patches when they loose patience and write to this list. or, the obviously broken bug reporting interface that has been suggested should be replaced with one that does what it is supposed to do. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
How about: This patch seems to have been completed last year; there are no outstanding issues against it. What needs to be done in order for this to be integrated? Chris On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 3:47 PM, Charlie De charlieco...@yahoo.com wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? Charlie - Original Message From: GIMP bugzi...@gnome.org To: charlieco...@yahoo.com Sent: Mon, March 14, 2011 9:05:01 AM Subject: [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color https://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=325564 GIMP | General | git master --- Comment #53 from Martin Nordholts ense...@gmail.com 2011-03-14 08:04:28 UTC --- We really must release 2.8 now, let's look at this for 2.10 instead. -- Configure bugmail: https://bugzilla.gnome.org/userprefs.cgi?tab=email --- You are receiving this mail because: --- You are on the CC list for the bug. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 05:34:13PM -0700, Carol Spears wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 11:20:14PM +, Øyvind Kolås wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 10:28 PM, Jacek Poplawski jacekpoplaw...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Mar 15, 2011 at 8:47 PM, Charlie De charlieco...@yahoo.com wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? This is very sad. I am not among the people working on GIMP itself - in the context of GIMP is primarily do work on GEGL - but I can tell both of you that this type of email does not serve to motivate any developer. At best they ignore it; at worst they get discouraged and decide that spending some of their spare time contributing to the common good/free software/GIMP is not worth it. interesting, this because when GIMP was being developed by many people seemingly happily so, it was the quality of the patch or plug-in or the script, not the flavor of the ass-kissing or the style of the request. it is the left brained people (artists and such) who are in need of constant appreciation and reassurance to happily do the right thing or to continue to do the job as was described but the right brained people, the more technically adept don't need so much of the obvious appreciation. this easy description of two different kinds of people starts to fail when a right brained seems to be needing the reassurance that the artistic sort do but actually just wants enough credit to continue their work and pay bills and to participate in the community that they are or have been serving in. i have worked with actors, for instance -- in a place where actors should be, btw. it doesn't take much to tell these creative sort that they are really doing well, etc etc. no, actually it does take much. it takes familiarity with their work and knowlege of their improvement. interestingly enough, the right-brainers enjoy this also. they often fail to know how to receive the appreciation. something has interfered with the right-brained people having access to both bugzilla and the source, perhaps. maybe actors where they should not be? i have been waiting for more than a week for a bug to be closed which should be closed, for instance. it might be the only way to communicate with the developers right now, but if the developers are not looking at bugzilla, then they will probably have to manage upset contributors with patches when they loose patience and write to this list. or, the obviously broken bug reporting interface that has been suggested should be replaced with one that does what it is supposed to do. s/left/right/ carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On 03/15/2011 08:47 PM, Charlie De wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? If we never make releases, we won't get new contributors either. We really need to make a release ASAP, and we simply don't have time to fix this before the 2.8 release. In modern software development, uncomfortable decisions like this sometimes needs to be made. I am sorry that it upsets you. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Why GIMP 2.8 is not released yet ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] [Bug 325564] Use CIE LCH instead of HSL for layer mode Color
On Wed, Mar 16, 2011 at 06:10:33AM +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: On 03/15/2011 08:47 PM, Charlie De wrote: Why?? Rupert Weber finished this last September and you promised it would be in 2.8. Is this how you show respect for the most stellar effort by a new talent? Shame, truly, shame on you. It's now been 5 years since the issue was first reported, you're going to add another year even though the work is done. That is, if you don't break your promise again. Where's your integrity? If we never make releases, we won't get new contributors either. We really need to make a release ASAP, and we simply don't have time to fix this before the 2.8 release. In modern software development, uncomfortable decisions like this sometimes needs to be made. I am sorry that it upsets you. you took the time to make tabs expand with the names of the dialog which the tab belonged to. you also spend a lot of time repairing a script-fu for which a tool already worked fine for -- a script-fu which might better have been rewritten to use the current tool. other bugs don't get closed after patches are applied. i mention these things because you have access and except for the closing bugs problem, these are the things that you have done in the last year or so. martin, if in, oh, lets say 3 days, March 18, 2011 the majority of your list items are not commited, perhaps you should consider stepping aside. releases don't attract developers. look at the history! gimp-1.0 - gimp-1.2, 1997 thru 2000. lots of contributors, lots of development, lots of ideas, lots of bug fixing. it was a lot of fun. buildbot nightlies seem to have attracted mitch who has been working on things consistently and changes to the italian po files. gimp has been stable enough to run the unstable version (with an exception for the current layer groups and a problem with painting since the end of last September) for years and years now. sometimes, you gotta quit -- and see if that helps things. i sure didn't like what was going on, i needed to be forced to quit. so, okay fine, i quit for more than two years, maybe more than three and you know what? the problem wasn't me because all of the things that i did not like persisted and there was no improvement in involvement -- in fact, involvement (especially by people who can fix bugs and have some knowlege of gimps innards) dropped off. i cannot force you to quit the way i was forced to quit. i can only ask you to consider this and also that before you quit, that you removed the buildbot stuff from gimp's source and put it into eh, lets say buildbots source on the same server. that way, other projects can become rejuvinated with buildbot product the way that gimp has been. i was told that it was a gnome project afterall... carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
