Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On 09/01/2010 12:45 PM, yahvuu wrote: O Peter, Where Art Thou? This is getting nasty quickly. On 28.08.2010 20:13, Sven Neumann wrote: On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 07:32 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote: If I want a colour , I should find it on the colour menu . If I want to select layers I should fine the necessary interface elements on the layer menu. Sounds reasonable. We could duplicate the menu items from the Dockables menu that raise/create those dialogs in the places where they belong. So we would have Layers dialog in the Image/Layers menu and the like. That's as simple as editing the XML files in the menus sub-directory. Perhaps someone wants to come up with a patch... I don't think we should duplicate any menu items. Having things in two places tends to cause unnecessary confusion. A user will have to answer questions like Why is this menu item in two places? Is it the same menu item? Does it do the same thing? Which one should I use now? Having just one place to do things avoids such ambiguity and mental friction. We do that for a few menu items already and I don't think it has ever caused any problems. Some examples are (and there are many more): Edit-Undo History View-Navigation Window Select-Selection Editor Colors-Info-Histogram Actually I think it's just an oversight that the Layers dialog is missing from the Layers menu. IMO all dialogs should be accessible from the menus where they belong to functionally. The Dockables menu is just a place to list all the available dialogs. It should be secondary. Another thing to note is that the 'Add Tab' entry from the dockable context menu provides a list of available dockables as well. I think i can explain why this additional option for dockable creation does not create much mental friction: When i'm browsing the 'Layer' menu, i'm thinking of what can be done with layers. Here is the place to discover the layers dialog -- i can find it here even if i do not have prior knowledge that a layers dialog exists at all. On the other hand, when adding a tab to an existing docbook using the 'Add Tab' menu, i'm configuring my workspace to better suit the task at hand -- that's a different kind of process than browsing for layer functionality. Windows-Dockable Dialogs is literally in the middle of these two choices. Perhaps we can weasel out by proclaiming that this isn't a 'menu' but just a list of available dialogs and thus no decision has to be made about which menu to use... That is, paraphrasing what Sven said. Your explanation makes sense, my reasoning was broken. I will try fix this for 2.8 (unless, of course, someone does it before me) / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
O Peter, Where Art Thou? This is getting nasty quickly. On 28.08.2010 20:13, Sven Neumann wrote: On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 07:32 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote: If I want a colour , I should find it on the colour menu . If I want to select layers I should fine the necessary interface elements on the layer menu. Sounds reasonable. We could duplicate the menu items from the Dockables menu that raise/create those dialogs in the places where they belong. So we would have Layers dialog in the Image/Layers menu and the like. That's as simple as editing the XML files in the menus sub-directory. Perhaps someone wants to come up with a patch... I don't think we should duplicate any menu items. Having things in two places tends to cause unnecessary confusion. A user will have to answer questions like Why is this menu item in two places? Is it the same menu item? Does it do the same thing? Which one should I use now? Having just one place to do things avoids such ambiguity and mental friction. We do that for a few menu items already and I don't think it has ever caused any problems. Some examples are (and there are many more): Edit-Undo History View-Navigation Window Select-Selection Editor Colors-Info-Histogram Actually I think it's just an oversight that the Layers dialog is missing from the Layers menu. IMO all dialogs should be accessible from the menus where they belong to functionally. The Dockables menu is just a place to list all the available dialogs. It should be secondary. Another thing to note is that the 'Add Tab' entry from the dockable context menu provides a list of available dockables as well. I think i can explain why this additional option for dockable creation does not create much mental friction: When i'm browsing the 'Layer' menu, i'm thinking of what can be done with layers. Here is the place to discover the layers dialog -- i can find it here even if i do not have prior knowledge that a layers dialog exists at all. On the other hand, when adding a tab to an existing docbook using the 'Add Tab' menu, i'm configuring my workspace to better suit the task at hand -- that's a different kind of process than browsing for layer functionality. Windows-Dockable Dialogs is literally in the middle of these two choices. Perhaps we can weasel out by proclaiming that this isn't a 'menu' but just a list of available dialogs and thus no decision has to be made about which menu to use... That is, paraphrasing what Sven said. Also, interesting to note how differently the word 'dialog' gets perceived. bye, yahvuu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On 08/28/10 07:16, Martin Nordholts wrote: Making the Layers dialog discoverable under the 'Layers' menu and color dialogs below the 'Colors' menu etc.. makes a lot of sense But won't that be a problem? Instead of having all dockable dialogs in a single place, a user would have to go hunt for the one he wants. Regards, Martin I think this is the logical error here from usage point of view. It is not the fact that they are dockable which means they should be grouped together. They should be grouped according to function. If I want to hide a layer I should not need to think : last time I did this what did it look like, what sort of GUI element was it that allowed me to hide a layer, was it dockable, where are dockables hidden? If I want to hide a layer , I go to the layers menu. I find it strange anyone would argue against that. /gg ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
Just the simple point of a basic user: 2010/8/28 g...@catking.net I think this is the logical error here from usage point of view. It is not the fact that they are dockable which means they should be grouped together. They should be grouped according to function. If I want to hide a layer I should not need to think : last time I did this what did it look like, what sort of GUI element was it that allowed me to hide a layer, was it dockable, where are dockables hidden? If I want to hide a layer , I go to the layers menu. I find it strange anyone would argue against that. The layers (dockable) dialog should never be hidden, every GIMP user guide says that. Thus for anybody following this idea, the real question is If I want to hide a layer, I go to the layers dialog. Otherwise, it would be necessary to copy in the layers menu all the functionalities of the layers dialog, which means a lot. Is this argument so strange? -- Olivier Lecarme ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 07:32 +0200, Martin Nordholts wrote: If I want a colour , I should find it on the colour menu . If I want to select layers I should fine the necessary interface elements on the layer menu. Sounds reasonable. We could duplicate the menu items from the Dockables menu that raise/create those dialogs in the places where they belong. So we would have Layers dialog in the Image/Layers menu and the like. That's as simple as editing the XML files in the menus sub-directory. Perhaps someone wants to come up with a patch... I don't think we should duplicate any menu items. Having things in two places tends to cause unnecessary confusion. A user will have to answer questions like Why is this menu item in two places? Is it the same menu item? Does it do the same thing? Which one should I use now? Having just one place to do things avoids such ambiguity and mental friction. We do that for a few menu items already and I don't think it has ever caused any problems. Some examples are (and there are many more): Edit-Undo History View-Navigation Window Select-Selection Editor Colors-Info-Histogram Actually I think it's just an oversight that the Layers dialog is missing from the Layers menu. IMO all dialogs should be accessible from the menus where they belong to functionally. The Dockables menu is just a place to list all the available dialogs. It should be secondary. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On Fri, 2010-08-27 at 12:39 +0200, yahvuu wrote: On 27.08.2010 07:32, Martin Nordholts wrote: If people have troubles finding the Layers dockable, we should instead look into making it more discoverable, like adding a 'Dockables' top menu or moving them directly under 'Windows' instead of having a sub menu. What about naming it the 'Dialogs' menu? -- 'Dockables' sounds like implementation slang to me. And the 'Windows' menu becomes confusing in single-window-mode. Dialogs is even more special than Windows and in single-window-mode it is at least as wrong as using the term Windows. The Windows menu name on the other hand is pretty much default and used in many applications as a place to list all currently open windows. And that's the main use of it in GIMP as well. With the exception that we also list the dockables since we consider them something like sub-windows. Making the Layers dialog discoverable under the 'Layers' menu and color dialogs below the 'Colors' menu etc.. makes a lot of sense, but IMHO that's the job of a 3.0 redesign -- there is a whole lot more to do than just releasing the dockables from their current hiding place and distributing them over the menu structure. As I pointed out in another mail, most dialogs are already available in their respective menus. Completing this is not a major overhaul, it's a bug-fix. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On 27.08.2010 07:32, Martin Nordholts wrote: If people have troubles finding the Layers dockable, we should instead look into making it more discoverable, like adding a 'Dockables' top menu or moving them directly under 'Windows' instead of having a sub menu. What about naming it the 'Dialogs' menu? -- 'Dockables' sounds like implementation slang to me. And the 'Windows' menu becomes confusing in single-window-mode. Making the Layers dialog discoverable under the 'Layers' menu and color dialogs below the 'Colors' menu etc.. makes a lot of sense, but IMHO that's the job of a 3.0 redesign -- there is a whole lot more to do than just releasing the dockables from their current hiding place and distributing them over the menu structure. (E.g. what use is in displaying the brushes dockable while the gradient tool is active? etc..) regards, yahvuu ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On 08/27/2010 12:39 PM, yahvuu wrote: On 27.08.2010 07:32, Martin Nordholts wrote: If people have troubles finding the Layers dockable, we should instead look into making it more discoverable, like adding a 'Dockables' top menu or moving them directly under 'Windows' instead of having a sub menu. What about naming it the 'Dialogs' menu? -- 'Dockables' sounds like implementation slang to me. And the 'Windows' menu becomes confusing in single-window-mode. Yes 'Dialogs' is better than 'Dockables'. 'Dockable Dialogs' is even better except it's too long. Making the Layers dialog discoverable under the 'Layers' menu and color dialogs below the 'Colors' menu etc.. makes a lot of sense But won't that be a problem? Instead of having all dockable dialogs in a single place, a user would have to go hunt for the one he wants. Regards, Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 21:11 +0200, g...@catking.net wrote: If I want a colour , I should find it on the colour menu . If I want to select layers I should fine the necessary interface elements on the layer menu. Sounds reasonable. We could duplicate the menu items from the Dockables menu that raise/create those dialogs in the places where they belong. So we would have Layers dialog in the Image/Layers menu and the like. That's as simple as editing the XML files in the menus sub-directory. Perhaps someone wants to come up with a patch... Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 09:11:25PM +0200, g...@catking.net wrote: [...] Since the subject here is (no subject) I will add a related comments on some similar oddities in the menu system [...] Sorry, I was too tried, it was Re: [Gimp-developer] scanner support should be File-Acquire before; I made a typo in editing... with mutt I can use my editor to directly change the mailheader - and also do some nasty stuff. It should be in the same thread as the scanner support-thread. I want to comment on how hard/illogical it is to find the layers dockable dialogue without knowing what gimp calls it and knowing that dockable dialogues are found on the windows menu. There are many things like that. I'm not long enough on this list to know all the old discussions, but AFAIK Sven Neumann once (some years ago) was interviewed by the Cahos Radio, and mentioned there, that one person did a complete usability anylsis. I don't know idf this work has already been finished and published. Would be interesting to see at the recommendations. I mean: not necessarily adopt all such things (maybe thera ara also other concepts and ideas), but at least it could be something for a discussion. Thanks for your comments on GUI inconsitencies. Ciao, Oliver ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 22:05 +0200, oli...@first.in-berlin.de wrote: I'm not long enough on this list to know all the old discussions, but AFAIK Sven Neumann once (some years ago) was interviewed by the Chaos Radio, and mentioned there, that one person did a complete usability anylsis. I don't know idf this work has already been finished and published. Would be interesting to see at the recommendations. I mean: not necessarily adopt all such things (maybe thera ara also other concepts and ideas), but at least it could be something for a discussion. This is all documented at http://gui.gimp.org/ and for some years now we are changing the UI based on input from the GIMP UI team. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] (no subject) plus dockables
On 08/26/2010 09:19 PM, Sven Neumann wrote: On Thu, 2010-08-26 at 21:11 +0200, g...@catking.net wrote: If I want a colour , I should find it on the colour menu . If I want to select layers I should fine the necessary interface elements on the layer menu. Sounds reasonable. We could duplicate the menu items from the Dockables menu that raise/create those dialogs in the places where they belong. So we would have Layers dialog in the Image/Layers menu and the like. That's as simple as editing the XML files in the menus sub-directory. Perhaps someone wants to come up with a patch... I don't think we should duplicate any menu items. Having things in two places tends to cause unnecessary confusion. A user will have to answer questions like Why is this menu item in two places? Is it the same menu item? Does it do the same thing? Which one should I use now? Having just one place to do things avoids such ambiguity and mental friction. If people have troubles finding the Layers dockable, we should instead look into making it more discoverable, like adding a 'Dockables' top menu or moving them directly under 'Windows' instead of having a sub menu. / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Automatic tab style and removed tab title bar ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
