Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On Thu, 2010-03-11 at 18:40 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote: [...] By knowing that it works on buffers with ink density and not light intensity. So how would GIMP know that? There are many heuristics that could be used: * Was the buffer created with Decompose? It's common to decompose even to cmyk (especially when working with scanned images) and this does not mean that curves should suddenly behave differently, and neither does it mean that one is working with ink. E.g. I sometimes do this to compensate for registration problems that happened when the image was printed 100 years ago, e.g. by moving the Y layer. (I could really do with a View filter that showed the recomposed result, or maybe a layer mode, so that with all layers shown I got the proper colour appearance) Either curve-ui-inversion should be under user control with a flip button, or not happen, I think. Curves going backwards when I switch windows isn't a nice concept. Liam -- Liam Quin - XML Activity Lead, W3C, http://www.w3.org/People/Quin/ Pictures from old books: http://fromoldbooks.org/ Ankh: irc.sorcery.net irc.gnome.org www.advogato.org ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 3/10/10, Martin Nordholts wrote: How about editing in CMYK space, where higher numbers mean greater ink density? Perhaps this is why Photoshop has this 'flip' feature. Good point, but in this case GIMP can do the necessary invert and flip for the user How? :) Alexandre ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 03/11/2010 06:23 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine wrote: On 3/10/10, Martin Nordholts wrote: How about editing in CMYK space, where higher numbers mean greater ink density? Perhaps this is why Photoshop has this 'flip' feature. Good point, but in this case GIMP can do the necessary invert and flip for the user How? :) By knowing that it works on buffers with ink density and not light intensity. So how would GIMP know that? There are many heuristics that could be used: * Was the buffer created with Decompose? * Is guiguru's CMYK projection/curtain down? * Is there a CMYK color profile attached somehow? * What babl format is used? / Martin -- My GIMP Blog: http://www.chromecode.com/ Multi-column dock windows and 2.8 schedule ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
Hi, On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 16:47 -0500, Jay Smith wrote: The general arguments you raise such as code harder to maintain and interface more complex are all perfectly legitimate and could be said of virtually any program change. However, they are not a shield from change. Rather, they are a filter which must be passed as part of a cost/benefit analysis. Indeed, that is exactly what they are. And that's why you need to give us reasons other than I would like that feature because it would be useful for me. Otherwise this change has nothing but costs and will be rejected. BUT... that little double-arrow thingy at the bottom of the curves graph reverses black/white positions. Sorry, but the fact that another program has a toggle button for this is not an argument for adding such a toggle button to GIMP. So is there any work-flow or use-case for which it would be beneficial to reverse the direction? Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 10 March 2010 08:04, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: BUT... that little double-arrow thingy at the bottom of the curves graph reverses black/white positions. Sorry, but the fact that another program has a toggle button for this is not an argument for adding such a toggle button to GIMP. So is there any work-flow or use-case for which it would be beneficial to reverse the direction? How about editing in CMYK space, where higher numbers mean greater ink density? Perhaps this is why Photoshop has this 'flip' feature. Of course GIMP is luminance only for now (higher numbers mean more light, not more ink) but this could change in the next few versions. John ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
2010/3/10 jcup...@gmail.com: On 10 March 2010 08:04, Sven Neumann s...@gimp.org wrote: Sorry, but the fact that another program has a toggle button for this is not an argument for adding such a toggle button to GIMP. So is there any work-flow or use-case for which it would be beneficial to reverse the direction? How about editing in CMYK space, where higher numbers mean greater ink density? Perhaps this is why Photoshop has this 'flip' feature. Good point, but in this case GIMP can do the necessary invert and flip for the user, no need for a toggle for that. / Martin ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
[Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On the GIMP-USER list On 03/09/2010 03:02 PM, Brendan wrote: On Tuesday 09 March 2010, Sven Neumann wrote: On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 14:49 -0500, Jay Smith wrote: The Color Curves dialog has the black in the lower left corner and the white in the upper right corner. This is the opposite of another program that I also have to use. Is there a way to reverse this default? GIMP is Free Software. You are given the source code and the right to modify it according to your needs. Oh, Sven, how users love your answers. To the OP: no, there is no option to switch it. You would have to change the source code and recompile. The above exchange occurred today on the Gimp-User list. I am posting here for discussion prior to posting an Enhancement Suggestion on Bugzilla. For a future version, I wish to propose adding the ability to reverse the direction of the black/white in the Curves dialog. A toggle button. Given that Gimp has such a great feature for storing past Curves adjustments, I am concerned that the toggle state would need to be added to that information storage. Does anybody other than me think that it would be a useful feature to add the ability to reverse the Curves black/white direction? Thanks. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
Hi, On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 15:51 -0500, Jay Smith wrote: The above exchange occurred today on the Gimp-User list. I am posting here for discussion prior to posting an Enhancement Suggestion on Bugzilla. For a future version, I wish to propose adding the ability to reverse the direction of the black/white in the Curves dialog. A toggle button. The reason that I suggested that you do this change to your local copy of GIMP is that I don't think that this change would be useful for a large part of our target user base. Adding this option to the source code will make the code harder to maintain and will increase the likelihood of bugs being introduced (by that particular change or at a later point in time). Adding a toggle button will make the user interface more complex and will degrade the user experience for most users. So unless you can persuade us that this feature is in-line with the product vision that we have for GIMP and that it is indeed important enough to outweigh the disadvantages that I explained above, we are not going to consider it. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: Does anybody other than me think that it would be a useful feature to add the ability to reverse the Curves black/white direction? I find it about a useless as a feature as it gets. Standard curve direction is black bottom left and white top right. If there is a problem about understanding the curve, that might be made more clear, but not by switching directions. Just my personal opinion here tho. -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 03/09/2010 04:12 PM, Alexia Death wrote: On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 10:51 PM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: Does anybody other than me think that it would be a useful feature to add the ability to reverse the Curves black/white direction? I find it about a useless as a feature as it gets. Standard curve direction is black bottom left and white top right. If there is a problem about understanding the curve, that might be made more clear, but not by switching directions. Just my personal opinion here tho. Hi Alexia, I am not sure where the standard that you mention comes from. I had never seen black at bottom left (by default) until I started to use Gimp. Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? Maybe the programs I have used in the past were backward. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On Tue, Mar 9, 2010 at 11:30 PM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: On 03/09/2010 04:12 PM, Alexia Death wrote: Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? That standard is based on the fact that Ive never seen a curves tool that is not like that. This and the fact that this the sane direction of any value axis covering positive values. -- --Alexia ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:30:58 -0500 Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: I am not sure where the standard that you mention comes from. I had never seen black at bottom left (by default) until I started to use Gimp. Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? Maybe the programs I have used in the past were backward. I would suggest that they were. The curves are graphs plotting value in (x) against value out(y). Traditionally a graph starting at 0 for both axes would be drawn with the origin in the bottom-left. This naturally leads to a curves graph where black (0) is in the bottom-left and white (255/1023/...) is in the top-right. What programs have you used where this situation was reversed? Jon ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 03/09/2010 04:12 PM, Sven Neumann wrote: Hi, On Tue, 2010-03-09 at 15:51 -0500, Jay Smith wrote: The above exchange occurred today on the Gimp-User list. I am posting here for discussion prior to posting an Enhancement Suggestion on Bugzilla. For a future version, I wish to propose adding the ability to reverse the direction of the black/white in the Curves dialog. A toggle button. The reason that I suggested that you do this change to your local copy of GIMP is that I don't think that this change would be useful for a large part of our target user base. Adding this option to the source code will make the code harder to maintain and will increase the likelihood of bugs being introduced (by that particular change or at a later point in time). Adding a toggle button will make the user interface more complex and will degrade the user experience for most users. So unless you can persuade us that this feature is in-line with the product vision that we have for GIMP and that it is indeed important enough to outweigh the disadvantages that I explained above, we are not going to consider it. Sven The greatest benefit that comes to my mind is that it puts the user in control and allows the user to align the program to their way of thinking/working. However, *if* Alexia is correct and that the standard is to do it as Gimp currently does (black in lower left), then making such a change is not as useful to most users as it would be to me. While putting the user in control may or may not (?) be part of Gimp's product vision, I suggest that it should be. The same can be said for things like having the program remember various dialog settings the user has changed. (I posted about one of those in the Gimp-User list today.) The general arguments you raise such as code harder to maintain and interface more complex are all perfectly legitimate and could be said of virtually any program change. However, they are not a shield from change. Rather, they are a filter which must be passed as part of a cost/benefit analysis. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 03/09/2010 04:39 PM, Jon Senior wrote: On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:30:58 -0500 Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: I am not sure where the standard that you mention comes from. I had never seen black at bottom left (by default) until I started to use Gimp. Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? Maybe the programs I have used in the past were backward. I would suggest that they were. The curves are graphs plotting value in (x) against value out(y). Traditionally a graph starting at 0 for both axes would be drawn with the origin in the bottom-left. This naturally leads to a curves graph where black (0) is in the bottom-left and white (255/1023/...) is in the top-right. What programs have you used where this situation was reversed? Jon Jon, That is certainly possible. The one that most comes to mind is Photoshop 5.x. I have no idea what modern Photoshop and successors do. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: On 03/09/2010 04:39 PM, Jon Senior wrote: On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:30:58 -0500 Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: I am not sure where the standard that you mention comes from. I had never seen black at bottom left (by default) until I started to use Gimp. Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? Maybe the programs I have used in the past were backward. I would suggest that they were. The curves are graphs plotting value in (x) against value out(y). Traditionally a graph starting at 0 for both axes would be drawn with the origin in the bottom-left. This naturally leads to a curves graph where black (0) is in the bottom-left and white (255/1023/...) is in the top-right. What programs have you used where this situation was reversed? Jon Jon, That is certainly possible. The one that most comes to mind is Photoshop 5.x. I have no idea what modern Photoshop and successors do. http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/photoshop/articles/phscs2at_learncurves_02.html White on the right, Same as GIMP, PSP, etc. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Adding ability to reverse curves dialog
On 03/09/2010 09:06 PM, David Gowers wrote: On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 8:19 AM, Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: On 03/09/2010 04:39 PM, Jon Senior wrote: On Tue, 09 Mar 2010 16:30:58 -0500 Jay Smith j...@jaysmith.com wrote: I am not sure where the standard that you mention comes from. I had never seen black at bottom left (by default) until I started to use Gimp. Is there some actual scientific standard underlying that? Or just majority of programs? Or the programs you have used? Or? Maybe the programs I have used in the past were backward. I would suggest that they were. The curves are graphs plotting value in (x) against value out(y). Traditionally a graph starting at 0 for both axes would be drawn with the origin in the bottom-left. This naturally leads to a curves graph where black (0) is in the bottom-left and white (255/1023/...) is in the top-right. What programs have you used where this situation was reversed? Jon Jon, That is certainly possible. The one that most comes to mind is Photoshop 5.x. I have no idea what modern Photoshop and successors do. http://www.adobe.com/designcenter/photoshop/articles/phscs2at_learncurves_02.html White on the right, Same as GIMP, PSP, etc. Thanks David, Yep, that's what that picture shows. BUT... that little double-arrow thingy at the bottom of the curves graph reverses black/white positions. It is entirely possible that umpteen years ago when we first installed Photoshop on Windows 95 that that double arrow got clicked and we have used it reversed ever since. Or maybe back then white was at the upper right. Okay, if the world says black is lower left, we will use it that way. Thanks. Case closed. Jay ___ Gimp-developer mailing list Gimp-developer@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
