Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-20 Thread Jakub Steiner
On Tue, 2003-03-18 at 17:48, Olivier Ripoll wrote:

 Just to say I do not think it is un-obtrusive. My default image size is
 256*256, and the menu is too big to fit in the image window (or just creates a
 huge empty window).
 
 However, this could be a tip for the tips and tricks window. Well, I know
 most users don't read this window anyway.
 

I'm working with very small images (icons) all the time and the menu
just feels weird since I can only access a minimal number of items. 

On the other hand this is about a sensible default. Having it on by
default may help new users find the functionality they would fail to
find in a right click menu. Those are the people that would use gimp to
sharpen their image, crop it, rotate it and save to a different format.
People like me and Olivier would have no trouble turning it off. I think
it's less of a pain for us to turn it off than to spoil new-user
experience with a trivial UI issue like hiding basic functionality like
this.

cheers

-- 
Jakub Steiner [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ximian, Inc.


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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Adam D. Moss

I want the splash screen! ;) I've seen Jimmac has done a new (or updated) one
in the changelog for today, and already look forward to see it!
It's funny.  Splash-screens, and the ritual habitual changing
thereof, have become a GIMP institution (where's that 'gimp
splashscreen history' page nowadays?).  I'd be sorry to see
them go by default.  :)
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Adam D. Moss   . ,,^^   [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.foxbox.org/   co:3
busting makes me feel good
kthx bye
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Raphaël Quinet
On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:48:32 +0100, Olivier Ripoll [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 MArk Finlay wrote:
  1. Everyone loves a good splash screen, but now Gnome has
  startup-notification which kinda makes them superflous. [...]
 
 I want the splash screen! ;) I've seen Jimmac has done a new (or updated) one
 in the changelog for today, and already look forward to see it!

Besides, not everyone is running the GIMP under GNOME.  I use GNOME on
all of my Linux boxes, but none of my Solaris boxes have GNOME
installed so the startup notification would not work there.

  2. To a lot of new users the way Gimp works is quite alien. A lot of
  users just get used to it, but some find it too weird. One of the
  hardest things to get used to is right clicking on an image to access
  the menus. [...]
  For users who want to use the rightclick menu, the menubar is
  un-obtrusive and can be turned off if they really hate having it there,
  and for a lot of users this will be invaluable. I know the option is
  there already, but it's the defaults that matter. Newbies are not going
  to go looking for a menubar that they don't know exists.

I agree with this.  As an experienced user, I would not use the menu
on top of the image windows because I can work faster with the
right-click menu, but it should be enabled by default so that new
users do not feel lost for the first time they use the GIMP.  I would
go as far as suggesting that the default should be to have a WiW MDI
model (at least for the Windows version, maybe even for other
platforms) because this would allow the GIMP to be more similar to
other image editing programs.  Cross-application consistency is more
important than the efficiency of any single application, for those who
do not use this application frequently.  The majority of GIMP users do
not use it frequently.

So I think that the default configuration of the GIMP should have the
menubar in the image window or even use a full MDI model.  There could
be a tip of the day suggesting to disable this menubar and to use
only the right-click menu in order to save space and to work faster.
The default mode should focus on cross-application consistency.

-Raphaël
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Branko Collin
On 18 Mar 2003, at 22:04, Raphaël Quinet wrote:

 On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:48:32 +0100, Olivier Ripoll
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  MArk Finlay wrote:   1. Everyone
 loves a good splash screen, but now Gnome has   startup-notification
 which kinda makes them superflous. [...]   I want the splash screen!
 ;) I've seen Jimmac has done a new (or updated) one  in the changelog
 for today, and already look forward to see it!

 Besides, not everyone is running the GIMP under GNOME.  I use GNOME on
 all of my Linux boxes, but none of my Solaris boxes have GNOME
 installed so the startup notification would not work there.

Well, something could be written that notices if you're running a
GNOME system and, if so, asks you at start-up if next time you want
to see the splash window. GNOME users could deselect that option
there and then or in the preferences.

   2. To a lot of new users the way Gimp works is quite alien. A lot
   of users just get used to it, but some find it too weird. One of
   the hardest things to get used to is right clicking on an image to
   access the menus. [...] For users who want to use the rightclick
   menu, the menubar is un-obtrusive and can be turned off if they
   really hate having it there, and for a lot of users this will be
   invaluable. I know the option is there already, but it's the
   defaults that matter. Newbies are not going to go looking for a
   menubar that they don't know exists.

 I agree with this.  As an experienced user, I would not use the menu
 on top of the image windows because I can work faster with the
 right-click menu, but it should be enabled by default so that new
 users do not feel lost for the first time they use the GIMP.  I would
 go as far as suggesting that the default should be to have a WiW MDI
 model (at least for the Windows version, maybe even for other
 platforms) because this would allow the GIMP to be more similar to
 other image editing programs.  Cross-application consistency is more
 important than the efficiency of any single application, for those who
 do not use this application frequently.  The majority of GIMP users do
 not use it frequently.

 So I think that the default configuration of the GIMP should have the
 menubar in the image window or even use a full MDI model.  There could
 be a tip of the day suggesting to disable this menubar and to use
 only the right-click menu in order to save space and to work faster.
 The default mode should focus on cross-application consistency.

If people want to check out how GIMP with MDI would work, Cinepaint
(formerly known as Film Gimp--notice the capitalized 'GIMP' :-)) uses
an MDI model on what the screenshots suggest all supported systems.
The Windows version also comes with a nice mouse pointer the size of
the current brush. Doesn't quite seem to work yet, but very handy.

See http://cinepaint.sourceforge.net if you're interested.

--
branko collin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Simon Budig
Branko Collin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On 18 Mar 2003, at 22:04, Raphaël Quinet wrote:
 
  On Tue, 18 Mar 2003 17:48:32 +0100, Olivier Ripoll
  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:  MArk Finlay wrote:   1. Everyone
  loves a good splash screen, but now Gnome has   startup-notification
  which kinda makes them superflous. [...]   I want the splash screen!
  ;) I've seen Jimmac has done a new (or updated) one  in the changelog
  for today, and already look forward to see it!
  
  Besides, not everyone is running the GIMP under GNOME.  I use GNOME on
  all of my Linux boxes, but none of my Solaris boxes have GNOME
  installed so the startup notification would not work there.
 
 Well, something could be written that notices if you're running a 
 GNOME system and, if so, asks you at start-up if next time you want 
 to see the splash window. GNOME users could deselect that option 
 there and then or in the preferences. 

Please be careful not to introduce a gnome dependency because of this.

[CinePaint]
 The Windows version also comes with a nice mouse pointer the size of 
 the current brush. Doesn't quite seem to work yet, but very handy.

Since this pops up again and again, I thought I'd share my thoughts
on how this might be implemented.

We could generate an outline of the current brush in the same way as
we create an outline for the selection. The result would be a
black/white image that roughly shows the size/shape of an brush.
(For brush pipes we could simply use the first brush in the pipe or
combine the black/white for the various brushes. Since the latter would
be a pretty black image for huge brush pipes a better idea would
probably be a bounding box or something like that.)

Changing the X11 Mousepointer itself is most probably not an option,
since some platforms have a size limit on that pointer (32x32 or so -
pretty small). Also moving an additional shaped window synchronously
with the mouse pointer sounds like a bad idea to me, since complex
shaped windows have a big performance impact on the X Server.

So we could simply XOR the image on the image view window. The
GimpDrawTool could be extended with functions to draw a bitmap on the
image and the GimpPaintTool would optionally use this feature to place
the above mentioned image on the view area.

Should be pretty straightforward, except maybe for the image generation
from the brush, since reusing the code for the selection is most
probably not possible.

I won't implement this - the Path tool is more urgent (Hi Jimmac!  :-)

Bye,
Simon
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Branko Collin
On 18 Mar 2003, at 23:14, Simon Budig wrote:
 Branko Collin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:

 [CinePaint]
  The Windows version also comes with a nice mouse pointer the size of
  the current brush. Doesn't quite seem to work yet, but very handy.
 
 Since this pops up again and again, I thought I'd share my thoughts on
 how this might be implemented.
 
 We could generate an outline of the current brush in the same way as
 we create an outline for the selection. The result would be a
 black/white image that roughly shows the size/shape of an brush. (For
 brush pipes we could simply use the first brush in the pipe or combine
 the black/white for the various brushes. Since the latter would be a
 pretty black image for huge brush pipes a better idea would probably
 be a bounding box or something like that.)
 
 Changing the X11 Mousepointer itself is most probably not an option,
 since some platforms have a size limit on that pointer (32x32 or so -
 pretty small). Also moving an additional shaped window synchronously
 with the mouse pointer sounds like a bad idea to me, since complex
 shaped windows have a big performance impact on the X Server.
 
 So we could simply XOR the image on the image view window. 

I take it the infamous XOR patent is not longer valid? 
(http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-
adv.htmr=1p=1f=Gl=50d=ptxtS1=4,197,590.WKU.OS=pn/4,197,590RS=P
N/4,197,590, applied for in 1980.)

 I won't implement this - the Path tool is more urgent (Hi Jimmac!  :-)

Yea path tool! Go Nomis, go Nomis, go Nomis! :-)

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Re: Some feedback on Gimp 1.3.x

2003-03-18 Thread Simon Budig
Branko Collin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
 On 18 Mar 2003, at 23:14, Simon Budig wrote:
  So we could simply XOR the image on the image view window. 
 
 I take it the infamous XOR patent is not longer valid? 
 (http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-
 Parser?Sect1=PTO2Sect2=HITOFFu=/netahtml/search-
 adv.htmr=1p=1f=Gl=50d=ptxtS1=4,197,590.WKU.OS=pn/4,197,590RS=P
 N/4,197,590, applied for in 1980.)

Invalid because of not enforced up to now - the GIMP already XORs for
a lot of years now...  :-)

  I won't implement this - the Path tool is more urgent (Hi Jimmac!  :-)
 
 Yea path tool! Go Nomis, go Nomis, go Nomis! :-)

I just started a bit hacking on it. I went at bug 108318 first
but removing the strong reference causes all sort of weird crashes
in other places. How could the vectors tool be notified when its
path gets removed? GIMP_IS_VECTORS () most probably won't help, since
the location where the pointer points to most probably still is a valid
GimpVectors - on the Undo Stack...

Mitch? Sven?

Bye,
Simon
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