Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On 25 Mar, Blue Lang wrote: A lot of laptops, especially running linux @ 1024x768, will only support 8 bit depth. Dunno if it matters to ya or not. :P Gimping on the plane, ahh. Really? But that's not a limitation of the notebook I hope... The techniques used in notebook LCD's allow normal notebooks to run at full 15/16 bit or even in simulated 24/32bit (the circuts convert the real 20bit to 24 or 32bit) -- Servus, Daniel
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On Sun, Mar 26, 2000 at 09:22:27PM +, Seth Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The truth is: any window may or may not fit any screen size, as the gimp has _no_ control over the pixelsize of it's windows. I'm going to assume I misunderstood you here Only partly. I was talking about dialogs, toolbox, menus etc... image windows definitely are the exception (and indeed the gimp controls their size ;). For example, I frequently hear things like "the menu is too full and will not fit on 640x480". It does its darndest to make sure images will fit on a screen, and makes Well, pressing "1" (100% zoom) frequently enlarges my window to (say) 1x1 pixels ;- But it could be argued that the wm should limit the window size to somethign sane (still, that windows "fit" on my virtual desktop...) The same care has not been taken for all elements of gimp, and this sloppiness shows up in dialogs that run off even huge screens. I think that this is what you're trying to address, yes? Exatcly not. Sure, you _can_ overcrowd a dialog, but the correct design is to allow large dialogs/menus in a sensible way on small screens, for example, by having scrollbars or displaying menus more intelligently, _not_ by removing widgets in the hope "the user must use my font, my x-server and my theme". Here is a practical example: I cnanot select all file-formats in the save dialog, simply because the optionmenu won't fit on the screen. Even worse, when the dialog is near the bottom, I can only select the first 5 or 6 formatssince the optionmenu does nothing to ensure that I can select everything (gtk+-1.2) ;) Now, if you apply the "the menu is too full to fit"-argument then the obvious solution is "use less file formats" or "use less layers" (gimp-perl suffers from the optionmenu problem as well). This example is extreme, but it illustrates my point. (My point does not apply just before a release, of course, where such decisions must be made sometimes). The right solution in these cases is not to waste time thinking about how we could use less file-formats, but use that time to get rid if the underlying problem: limitations in gtk+. BTW, I know that the gtk+ people actively do solve these problems. I didn't want to rant in any way, I just wanted to remind people that one should approach these problems carefully (I am a constant victim of designs like: "well, the menu fits on _my_ screen, so you use too large fonts") ;) -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | |
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
Are 8bit displays really an issue nowadays? But changing the default sounds reasonable... I'm stuck on 8 bits when I use my Sun. Most of the Suns that I have to support in this department are still 8 bits. Bill Sebok Computer Software Manager, Univ. of Maryland, Astronomy Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL: http://www.astro.umd.edu/~wls/
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On Saturday, 25 Mar 2000, Simon Budig wrote: The defaults from gimprc are questionable IMHO. The default imagesize is not specified and defaults to something around 950x760, which is pretty close to my screen resolution. Maybe we should default to something like 300x300 ? The default is deliberately large, non-rectangular, and not a power of 2 so as to provoke as many bugs as possible (eg half-full tiles not being treated correctly, etc). The large size is to provide some incentive for people to optimise screen redraws so we don't get too many. For a proper release, the default size should be made something smaller (256x256 sounds reasonable). Actually, I'd like to make the default resolution something quite different from the screen res. and also non-square, just to make sure people are treating non-square pixels correctly. Eg, 75x150 dpi might be a sensible choice. The default toolbox-layout is IMHO ugly. Should we default to the layout with three columns? Yes. Austin
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 09:17:54PM +0100, Simon Budig [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * The dialog is quite huge, it does not fit on a 640x480 screen completely. Do we need to fix this? Just a minor point (which is, btw, not directly related to your mail, I just wanted to re-iterate it again, since in the past many people made similar remarks with regards to ui-design, and wether a given dialog/menu is "too full" or not): too many people here assume that "this-and-that menu/dialog/window" fits/does not fit on 640x480. The truth is: any window may or may not fit any screen size, as the gimp has _no_ control over the pixelsize of it's windows. Some people really like to customize their desktop and, yes, some gimp menus do not fit on my 1600x1200 screen. The only solution is good ui interface (which is difficult), and not "make the font smaller" (or something like that). ;) -- -==- | ==-- _ | ---==---(_)__ __ __ Marc Lehmann +-- --==---/ / _ \/ // /\ \/ / [EMAIL PROTECTED] |e| -=/_/_//_/\_,_/ /_/\_\ XX11-RIPE --+ The choice of a GNU generation | |
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
The truth is: any window may or may not fit any screen size, as the gimp has _no_ control over the pixelsize of it's windows. I'm going to assume I misunderstood you here; gimp most certainly tries to control the size of its windows, through zoom or use of scrollbars. It does its darndest to make sure images will fit on a screen, and makes suggestions to the wm to put them there (the wm is free to ignore this). The same care has not been taken for all elements of gimp, and this sloppiness shows up in dialogs that run off even huge screens. I think that this is what you're trying to address, yes? Seth Burgess [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
Hi, On Sat, Mar 25, 2000 at 09:17:54PM +0100, Simon Budig wrote: First congratulations for the new User-Installation Dialogs. But I cannot resist to comment on it :-) * There seems to be a problem with the big titles. As you can see at http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/gimp/GimpUserInstallation.png the title of an page gets cut off (Gimp CVS from Sat Mar 25 02:01:18 CET 2000 ). I can't reproduce this here. We already got a report about this and it was related to XFree86-4.0 being used with older X11 libs (which is something that should work of course, since the X-Server should be independent of the X libs). XFree86-4.0 is known to have some problems with fonts and GDK. * The dialog is quite huge, it does not fit on a 640x480 screen completely. Do we need to fix this? We already thought about that when we designed the dialog. We do not change the default font size in the dialog. I think it is safe to assume that people working with 640x480 do not change their GTK default font to a larger font. Using the default font the dialog easily fits on the screen. But then, Gimp is almost unusable on 640x480 anyway... * Personally I dont like the orange color. I prefer blue, but this is personal preference. I tried an alternative layout (with Gimp - not C :-) (moving Wilber to the right, blue color) and created another Wilber-Icon with a helmet on to indicate that there is real Work going on :-) You can see a pseudo-screenshot at http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/gimp/GimpUserInstallation2.png The XCF of the new Wilber is available at http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/gimp/wilber_work2.xcf.gz I do not like the blue very much. Yesterday I have changed the color to a slightly less drastic orange. The Wilber with the helmet is cute. The reason why we decided to reuse the pixmap that is used for the icon was memory usage. It doesn't really make sense to include a pixmap that is only used once at the very first start of the program... We could change this to load the pixmap from disk, but that might lead to other problems... The defaults from gimprc are questionable IMHO. The default imagesize is not specified and defaults to something around 950x760, which is pretty close to my screen resolution. Maybe we should default to something like 300x300 ? The image size default was changed to track down problems that only occur with large images where width != height. Of course this will change before 1.2 gets released. Is there a reason, why (install-colormap) is not enabled by default? Gimp needs pretty much colors and probably wont start on most systems with 8bit color. Enabling this has no negative impact on Truecolor users. So if somebody really uses gimp as the only application on an 8bit screen he can switch this Option off manually to avoid flashing. Are 8bit displays really an issue nowadays? But changing the default sounds reasonable... The default toolbox-layout is IMHO ugly. Should we default to the layout with three columns? This has the positive effect that people updating from Gimp 1.0 will not be confused unnecessary. The 3 column layout has the problem that the Help menu is not visible. Not a very good choice for a default setting... Salut, Sven
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
But then, Gimp is almost unusable on 640x480 anyway...
Screen shooter on steroids. ;]
I do not like the blue very much. Yesterday I have changed the color to a
slightly less drastic orange. The Wilber with the helmet is cute. The
Orange hits the user eyes. I do not like it, blue is too pale, but at least
orange can call user's atention. I have users that do not see anything,
except if it blinks, is red and beep a lot. You get the idea.
I prefer green... but that is a personal preference. Does the colour be
configurable to match local settings? I am away from Linux machines and I
have not installed latest Gimp yet ("baby users" leave few free time) so I
do not know all this. It will be interesting to be able to select color, in
the same way admin configures XDM or default session.
reason
why we decided to reuse the pixmap that is used for the icon was memory
usage. It doesn't really make sense to include a pixmap that is only used
once at the very first start of the program... We could change this to load
the pixmap from disk, but that might lead to other problems...
The helmet Wilber is really cool. And the placement is really better (title
left side, icon right side).
The defaults from gimprc are questionable IMHO. The default imagesize
is not specified and defaults to something around 950x760, which is
pretty close to my screen resolution. Maybe we should default to
something like 300x300 ?
The image size default was changed to track down problems that only occur
with large images where width != height. Of course this will change before
1.2 gets released.
Something like old 256 * 256.
Are 8bit displays really an issue nowadays? But changing the default sounds
reasonable...
Only legacy hardware... and in the worse one I have it is 800 * 600, 16
bits. I doubt anybody will try to run in 8 bit to do graphics work now.
The default toolbox-layout is IMHO ugly. Should we default to the
layout with three columns? This has the positive effect that people
updating from Gimp 1.0 will not be confused unnecessary.
The 3 column layout has the problem that the Help menu is not visible. Not
a very good choice for a default setting...
Not really. But hey! Who read help docs in this world? Experts do not need
them, and newbies do not care... err... umm.. excuse me, I am having serious
problems with some local users here. Excuse me for my aggresiveness, but I
am really angry... you point them to the damn help or man page, and they do
not read. Ohh my god! :[ Maybe we should forget all about CLI, GUI, 3D GUI
and go for mind reading interfaces, but I doubt they will read anything more
than noise in some user brains.
GSR
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Guillermo S. Romero / Familia Romero wrote: Are 8bit displays really an issue nowadays? But changing the default sounds reasonable... Only legacy hardware... and in the worse one I have it is 800 * 600, 16 bits. I doubt anybody will try to run in 8 bit to do graphics work now. A lot of laptops, especially running linux @ 1024x768, will only support 8 bit depth. Dunno if it matters to ya or not. :P Gimping on the plane, ahh. -- Blue Lang Unix Systems Admin QSP, Inc., 3200 Atlantic Ave, Ste 100, Raleigh, NC, 27604 Home: 919 835 1540 Work: 919 875 6994 Fax: 919 872 4015
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
Only legacy hardware... and in the worse one I have it is 800 * 600, 16 bits. I doubt anybody will try to run in 8 bit to do graphics work now. A lot of laptops, especially running linux @ 1024x768, will only support 8 bit depth. Dunno if it matters to ya or not. :P Gimping on the plane, ahh. I would go for 800 * 600 16 bits in that case (1MB of video RAM, I suppose). And yes, I know that LCDs look weird when using a resolution not divisor of the maximum one. I also know that running Gimp in a laptop (screen size, mouse type, etc) will not make me happy. If you are going to do graphics, you want hi color hi res, yes? If I only can get one, I choose color. You can choose anything you want, if you do only GIFs you can live with 256 colors, for example. That is what I mean, that normally you will not use it (you can, of course). GSR
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
On Sun, 26 Mar 2000, Guillermo S. Romero / Familia Romero wrote: If you are going to do graphics, you want hi color hi res, yes? If I only can get one, I choose color. You can choose anything you want, if you do only GIFs you can live with 256 colors, for example. That is what I mean, that normally you will not use it (you can, of course). shrug, it's your app, but i think you're being a little presumptive. i use the gimp primarily for web pages, and i'm sure i'm not alone in that. if i'm working on a lot of little images, i just want desktop space. not everyone who uses the gimp is an artist, ya know. :P i, uhm, don't even know what the origin of this thread was, btw, so YMMV and all that. :P -- Blue Lang Unix Systems Admin QSP, Inc., 3200 Atlantic Ave, Ste 100, Raleigh, NC, 27604 Home: 919 835 1540 Work: 919 875 6994 Fax: 919 872 4015
Re: Gimp User Installation Dialog.
These 3.2K bytes were from Sven Neumann, The 3 column layout has the problem that the Help menu is not visible. Not a very good choice for a default setting... Hmm. We should have the ability to have multilined menus. Through GTK+ of course. So when the width of the window is too small to display the menu, the menu uses 2, 3, .. lines. I remember seeing this feature on some OS I have used. Maybe it was OS/2. I dont remember anymore. -- Ville Pätsi -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
