Re: [GIMP-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
VytautasP wrote: > H. Noriega wrote: >> The conclusion : Beware of irresponsible use of the mouse. De >> Quervain’s disease is definitely deceptive and resembles a >> broken bone: it takes weeks/months to heal. > And it takes 5min break per hour to avoid it. There are even tools to remind you of this, e.g. http://www.workrave.org/ HTH, Michael -- GIMP > http://www.gimp.org | IRC: irc://irc.gimp.org/gimp Wiki > http://wiki.gimp.org | .de: http://gimpforum.de Plug-ins > http://registry.gimp.org | ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [GIMP-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
The conclusion : Beware of irresponsible use of the mouse. De Quervain’s disease is definitely deceptive and resembles a broken bone: it takes weeks/months to heal. H. Noriega And it takes 5min break per hour to avoid it. ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re:[GIMP-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
Hi, Thanks for all the comments and suggestions. My message about De Quervains disease-GIMP connection was not meant to be a complaint about the GIMP or any other software. I just wanted to point out two things: 1) that we can definitely end up with painful, inflamed tendons after pressing the mouse for several hours non-interrupted, regardless of the software we are using and as harmless as a mouse might look and 2) that we dont really know how much is too much as for the pressure and time our wrists/hands can resist until we actually get the carpal tunnel syndrome or De Quervains disease. I dont play computer games, but just like the few previous times of intensive use of my mouse, I felt naturally confident that the numbness in my hand/wrist (after n hours of tension painting and retouching with GIMP) should disappear after stretching, relaxing and taking a reasonable rest. Thats maybe true for one day of work, but not for 5 days like my case, when I had to paint and retouch a bunch of old pictures in one week and GIMP was my first choice. De Quervains disease is subtle and somehow deceptive: you dont feel any pain nor any remote trace that your tendons are getting inflamed. In the morning of my last day of work, I woke up with an uncomfortable sensation in my wrist that I could not call a true pain, but I kept going anyway and finished my work. An increasing pain came afterwards, in the next days after using the GIMP and would not disappear even with relaxing exercises and long rest. I reached the point of not being able to move my right hand. Even so, I still believed the pain would go away in the next days. I was wrong, the pain increased and it took me 2 ½ months to make it disappear. After the first month, my doctor even suggested surgery. Fortunately, the corticosteroid injection, powerful medication and ice prevented me from investing at least $1500 more in wrist surgery. The conclusion : Beware of irresponsible use of the mouse. De Quervains disease is definitely deceptive and resembles a broken bone: it takes weeks/months to heal. H. Noriega ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
On Sunday 09 July 2006 08:10, david burzota wrote: > Another alternative would be to signal the start and end of the draw > operation with a key on > the keyboard. > > It would require 2 hands, but at least relieve the need to constantly be > pressing > with a finger on the mouse. > > David > > >From: Roel Schroeven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu > >Subject: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease > >Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:34:11 +0200 > > > >Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris schreef: > >>On Friday 07 July 2006 12:13 am, Hector Noriega wrote: > >>>Hello, > >>> > >>>This might be a common experience (or a well-known fact) among GIMP > >>>users. I just want to say that I just recovered from De Quervain's > >>>disease after an intensive week using GIMP. I'm not familiar with > >>>the new versions of this software, but mine requires keeping both > >>>my thumb and index finger pressed against the mouse while painting > > ... > > >>The motive I am writing however is another one: Mr. Noriega, can you > >> think of a better way of handling painting with the input devices found > >> in most computers? (i.e. keyboard and mouse - maybe mic). > >>The GIMP is comunity based, and you can help us build a better software. > >>Even one that gets ahead the commercial counterparts in some respects. > > > >There's one relatively simple change I can think of, that could reduce > >problems as the one experienced by Hector: instead of requiring the user > > to hold the mouse button pushed down during a drawing operation, it's > > possible to signal the start and the end of a drawing operation with > > separate mouse clicks. I.e. instead of "mouse down -> paint operation -> > > mouse up" you could do "mouse click -> paint operation -> mouse click". > > > > > >-- > >If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood > >on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton > > > >Roel Schroeven > > > >___ > >Gimp-user mailing list > >Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU > >https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user > > _ > Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! > http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ > > ___ > Gimp-user mailing list > Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU > https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user But that would induce repetetive ovements of the arms and shoulders as you lift and move your hands. That is the same type of stress a supermarket clerk has. And we all know the problems they get... I think the tablet idea is the most functional alternative to mouse/keyboard. Maybe combined with left hand on the keyboard (if you are right handed) using the short cut keys. As little "meta-ctrl-alt" combos as possible to relieve finger stress It would be cool to colorcode a keyboard a la the ones available for the video editing software "Final Cut Pro". -- /Rikard - email : [EMAIL PROTECTED] web : http://www.rikjoh.com mob:: +46 (0)763 19 76 25 Public PGP fingerprint < 15 28 DF 78 67 98 B2 16 1F D3 FD C5 59 D4 B6 78 46 1C EE 56 > pgpC62qmSfVwG.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
RE: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
Another alternative would be to signal the start and end of the draw operation with a key on the keyboard. It would require 2 hands, but at least relieve the need to constantly be pressing with a finger on the mouse. David From: Roel Schroeven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: gimp-user@lists.xcf.berkeley.edu Subject: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease Date: Fri, 07 Jul 2006 17:34:11 +0200 Joao S. O. Bueno Calligaris schreef: On Friday 07 July 2006 12:13 am, Hector Noriega wrote: Hello, This might be a common experience (or a well-known fact) among GIMP users. I just want to say that I just recovered from De Quervain's disease after an intensive week using GIMP. I'm not familiar with the new versions of this software, but mine requires keeping both my thumb and index finger pressed against the mouse while painting ... The motive I am writing however is another one: Mr. Noriega, can you think of a better way of handling painting with the input devices found in most computers? (i.e. keyboard and mouse - maybe mic). The GIMP is comunity based, and you can help us build a better software. Even one that gets ahead the commercial counterparts in some respects. There's one relatively simple change I can think of, that could reduce problems as the one experienced by Hector: instead of requiring the user to hold the mouse button pushed down during a drawing operation, it's possible to signal the start and the end of a drawing operation with separate mouse clicks. I.e. instead of "mouse down -> paint operation -> mouse up" you could do "mouse click -> paint operation -> mouse click". -- If I have been able to see further, it was only because I stood on the shoulders of giants. -- Isaac Newton Roel Schroeven ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
Gilles Maltais wrote: A good solution would be to use a pen tablet. I have a big Wacom 12-inch which is good for graphics but for general pointing use, a small one would be infinitely better than a mouse for EVERYBODY. BTW, are there lefthanders on the list ? I would like to know how they handle their mouse. Personally, I sit the outer side of the hand, put the thumb inside and move it with the "pinky-thumb fork" when I have to. Easier on the wrist too Speaking as a lefthander, I normally use the mouse right-handed; then occasionally change to left-handed when the right hand cramps up. It's not very satisfactory, though. Doug . Gilles Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote: On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 05:34:11PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: There's one relatively simple change I can think of, that could reduce problems as the one experienced by Hector: instead of requiring the user to hold the mouse button pushed down during a drawing operation, it's possible to signal the start and the end of a drawing operation with separate mouse clicks. I.e. instead of "mouse down -> paint operation -> mouse up" you could do "mouse click -> paint operation -> mouse click". Personally, I switched to a trackball and picked up contact juggling to exercise the wrists. Fundamentally, a mouse is the wrong tool with which to paint, and by and large a disasterous tool for computer health. Generally, the advice to take breaks is a good one. Specifically re the above quoted, I would consider mouse toggling to be an accessibility issue best dealt with at a desktop level (GTK/Gnome/Whatever) rather than application specific hacks. Jeff ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 2006-07-07 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
Jeffrey Brent McBeth writes: > I would consider mouse toggling to be an accessibility issue best dealt with > at a desktop level (GTK/Gnome/Whatever) rather than application specific > hacks. When I saw the original request I was thinking of suggesting a "sticky mouse" option, equivalent to the "sticky keys" option available in X or at the OS level to make modifier keys toggle, for one-handed (or one-fingered) users. But I quickly realized that the cure would be worse than the disease. If you made the left mouse button toggle every time it was clicked, then every one-click operation becomes a two-click operation; your total number of mouse clicks nearly doubles. If you didn't have RSI before then, that would bring it on for sure! So it actually might make sense to implement such a feature separately for drawing tools in graphics programs (as an option, of course). If it was implemented at a systemwide level, it would have to be smarter than merely making clicks sticky; for instance, you could say that any drag of more than [threshold] pixels remains a drag even if the button is released during the drag, until the button is clicked again. -- ...Akkana Check out my book, "Beginning GIMP: From Novice to Professional". Now shipping! For more information: http://gimpbook.com ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
A good solution would be to use a pen tablet. I have a big Wacom 12-inch which is good for graphics but for general pointing use, a small one would be infinitely better than a mouse for EVERYBODY. BTW, are there lefthanders on the list ? I would like to know how they handle their mouse. Personally, I sit the outer side of the hand, put the thumb inside and move it with the "pinky-thumb fork" when I have to. Easier on the wrist too. Gilles Jeffrey Brent McBeth wrote: On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 05:34:11PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: There's one relatively simple change I can think of, that could reduce problems as the one experienced by Hector: instead of requiring the user to hold the mouse button pushed down during a drawing operation, it's possible to signal the start and the end of a drawing operation with separate mouse clicks. I.e. instead of "mouse down -> paint operation -> mouse up" you could do "mouse click -> paint operation -> mouse click". Personally, I switched to a trackball and picked up contact juggling to exercise the wrists. Fundamentally, a mouse is the wrong tool with which to paint, and by and large a disasterous tool for computer health. Generally, the advice to take breaks is a good one. Specifically re the above quoted, I would consider mouse toggling to be an accessibility issue best dealt with at a desktop level (GTK/Gnome/Whatever) rather than application specific hacks. Jeff ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.9.10/383 - Release Date: 2006-07-07 ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
Re: [Gimp-user] Re: GIMP can induce De Quervain's disease
On Fri, Jul 07, 2006 at 05:34:11PM +0200, Roel Schroeven wrote: > > There's one relatively simple change I can think of, that could reduce > problems as the one experienced by Hector: instead of requiring the user > to hold the mouse button pushed down during a drawing operation, it's > possible to signal the start and the end of a drawing operation with > separate mouse clicks. I.e. instead of "mouse down -> paint operation -> > mouse up" you could do "mouse click -> paint operation -> mouse click". Personally, I switched to a trackball and picked up contact juggling to exercise the wrists. Fundamentally, a mouse is the wrong tool with which to paint, and by and large a disasterous tool for computer health. Generally, the advice to take breaks is a good one. Specifically re the above quoted, I would consider mouse toggling to be an accessibility issue best dealt with at a desktop level (GTK/Gnome/Whatever) rather than application specific hacks. Jeff -- Computer Science is as much about computers as astronomy is about telescopes -- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra (1930-2002) pgpvahrDuG1xU.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Gimp-user mailing list Gimp-user@lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU https://lists.XCF.Berkeley.EDU/mailman/listinfo/gimp-user
