One whole message below was censored on 28th October 2019 from
gnu-misc-discuss mailing list.
This is not a call for further flaming, we had it enough.
I still do not endorse public shamings from Guix leadership neither I
would ever allow it on GNU pages, specifically on Guix blog published
on
Ok. I'll make sure I send them to the right ones.
On 2019-11-06 03:32, Richard Stallman wrote:
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's
On 11/5/19 4:02 PM, Thompson, David wrote:
> Maybe this would be a reasonable request if we ignored all the context
> of what has transpired in the past month or so (which, we must not
> forget, was just the straw that broke the camel's back after *years*
> of problematic behavior),
there has
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
Please do not cross-post to this list and another GNU discussion list.
Most
* Mark Wielaard [2019-11-05 23:57]:
> Hi John,
>
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 01:39:46PM -0800, John Wiegley wrote:
> > He’s correct, I do not share the GNU philosophy, even if I enjoy
> > supporting the technical aspects of the software they produce.
>
> Boo! If you are not with us, then you are
* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-05 23:57]:
> Andreas Enge wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 11:13:57PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> >> > We want to give everyone the opportunity to contribute to our efforts on
> >> > any of the many tasks that require work. We welcome all
There is importance in the practice of software: the creation there-of.
RMS' clout came from the software work he did. Also programming is fun.
Clout is lost when one moves to far from the corpus of it all. People
say "well he USED to be a programmer". People hold programmers in higher
regard
*Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 21:58:42 CET Andreas Enge a écrit :*
*> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 11:49:03PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:*
*> > Andreas Enge wrote:*
*> > > For instance, I would not find it acceptable that a GNU maintainer goes*
*> > > to FOSDEM to give a talk about their newest open
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 21:31:09 CET Andreas Enge a écrit :
> Hello,
>
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 12:46:42PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> > In the GNU project everyone is welcome, even people who do not share
> > the goals and philosophy of the GNU project.
>
> I do not think this makes
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 18:58:04 CET Samuel Thibault a écrit :
> But you'd have to agree on the GNU goals if you are
> to take responsibilities in the GNU project, such as being maintainer
> of a package (as in: responsible for the package, and not only a
> contributor).
I disagree! Maintainer
Le mercredi 6 novembre 2019 03:27:01 CET, vous avez écrit :
> * Alexandre François Garreau [2019-11-06 03:14]:
> > It’s natural to generalize, problem when generalization actually
> > (linearly/
> > monodimensionally) hierarchize people and becomes part of division culture
> > or oppression.
>
>
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 15:45:40 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> retaliated against for being critical
Le mercredi 6 novembre 2019, 00:36:29 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * John Wiegley [2019-11-05 23:26]:
> > He’s correct, I do not share the GNU philosophy, even if I enjoy
> > supporting the technical aspects of the software they produce.
>
> Yet you do allow as Emacs maintainer publishing of free
* Alexandre François Garreau [2019-11-06 03:14]:
> It’s natural to generalize, problem when generalization actually (linearly/
> monodimensionally) hierarchize people and becomes part of division culture or
> oppression.
It may be natural and human. But it is not rational, and what I mean
is
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 19:48:36 CET Dmitry Alexandrov a écrit :
> Brandon Invergo wrote:
> > Dmitry Alexandrov writes:
> >> Iʼm afraid, you conflated two points. Publicity that undermine the core
> >> competency of an organization — yes, is perhaps is the most harmful
> >> thing for it.
> >>
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 23:21:48 CET Jean Louis a écrit :
> * Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-05 16:56]:
> > > That is not quite so. In America country it is possible to use pen
> > > names.
> >
> > Why is it specific to ‘America country’ (whatever it is)?
>
> I meant USA.
>
>
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 22:17:07 CET Brandon Invergo a écrit :
> We do have a problem with someone under moderation who is sending
> messages off-list. It probably would have happened eventually anyway,
> no matter who was moderating. Anyway, I do not know how to moderate
> that. If you have
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> >
> > Samuel
>
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
> you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
> you
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:17:16 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Samuel Thibault writes:
> > Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
> >
> > Samuel
I initially thought that was in answer to a message of mine, because my MUA
placed it under…
> Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 18:09:08 CET Samuel Thibault a écrit :
> Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
>
> Samuel
I don’t know if my MUA is failing… and understood you were talking about Ruben
and not me only thanks to headers (now I’m even more strongly against single
* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-06 01:35]:
> Jean Louis wrote:
> > Yet you do allow as Emacs maintainer publishing of free software
> > improvements into Emacs?
> > publishing … into Emacs
> > into
>
> What?
>
> I suppose, youʼd better rephrase that.
Tell me first what you
Jean Louis wrote:
> Yet you do allow as Emacs maintainer publishing of free software improvements
> into Emacs?
> publishing … into Emacs
> into
What?
I suppose, youʼd better rephrase that.
signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-05 23:57]:
> Andreas Enge wrote:
> > On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 11:13:57PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> >> > We want to give everyone the opportunity to contribute to our efforts on
> >> > any of the many tasks that require work. We welcome all
* John Wiegley [2019-11-05 23:26]:
> He’s correct, I do not share the GNU philosophy, even if I enjoy
> supporting the technical aspects of the software they produce.
Yet you do allow as Emacs maintainer publishing of free software
improvements into Emacs?
That implies you do share one big
Hi John,
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 01:39:46PM -0800, John Wiegley wrote:
> He’s correct, I do not share the GNU philosophy, even if I enjoy
> supporting the technical aspects of the software they produce.
Boo! If you are not with us, then you are against us! Sorry, I don't
actually mean that. I
Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 11:13:57PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
>> > We want to give everyone the opportunity to contribute to our efforts on
>> > any of the many tasks that require work. We welcome all contributors…
>>
>> Many GNU subprojects value ‘recordkeeping’ (per
Hi,
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 04:51:09PM -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> If you're sticking to the same guidelines, what's the harm in allowing
> the former moderators to continue doing the same?
For the record, I don't want to. As you can probably understand it
will take a bit of time before I
He’s correct, I do not share the GNU philosophy, even if I enjoy supporting the
technical aspects of the software they produce.
John
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019, at 1:22 PM, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Andreas Enge wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 11:49:03PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> >>
Brandon,
On 11/05/2019 03:38 PM, Brandon Invergo wrote:
> That is not true, and it is an unfair accusation of Carlos and Mark. As
> I just wrote in another message, unfounded accusations will get us
> nowhere. Please let's refrain from building up false narratives.
Most probably you are
* Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> [2019-11-05 16:56]:
> > That is not quite so. In America country it is possible to use pen names.
>
> Why is it specific to ‘America country’ (whatever it is)?
I meant USA.
You are right, probably other countries also allow pen-name
copyrights.
When
Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 11:49:03PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
>> Andreas Enge wrote:
>> > For instance, I would not find it acceptable that a GNU maintainer goes to
>> > [a conference] to give a talk about their newest open source software on a
>> > Macbook
>>
>>
Thompson, David writes:
> I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> retaliated against for being critical of GNU leadership.
Optics are
On Sat, Nov 02, 2019 at 11:13:57PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Iʼd like to remind, that promoting a copyleft from a just a tool applied
> strategically to a unyielding principle would be in contrary to the effective
> recommendations published on gnu.org [1].
As also pointed out by
On Tue, 2019-11-05 at 16:02 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 3:44 PM Andreas wrote:
> >
> > To avoid that it's best to just leave it, as suggested, or else
> > make a
> > serious and well-founded claim and illustrate how it impacts GNU
> > and
> > its functions. I think
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 4:17 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Thompson, David writes:
>
> > I hope you can see the terrible optics this has. Something has
> > happened behind the scenes, shortly after you and Mike became
> > moderators, that makes it appear as though Carlos and Mark were
> >
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 3:44 PM Andreas wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2019-11-05 at 13:26 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brandon Invergo
> > wrote:
>
> > > Can we just leave it there?
> >
> > I don't think we can. RMS is GNU's leader, and his public comments,
> > whether
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 11:49:03PM +0300, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Andreas Enge wrote:
> > For instance, I would not find it acceptable that a GNU maintainer goes to
> > FOSDEM to give a talk about their newest open source software on a Macbook
>
> Why not? In any case, GNU Emacs maintainer
Andreas Enge wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 12:46:42PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
>> In the GNU project everyone is welcome, even people who do not share the
>> goals and philosophy of the GNU project.
>
> I do not think this makes sense, actually. As soon as we have a bit of
>
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 3:33 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Thompson, David writes:
>
> > So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
> > lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
> > Surely a coincidence.
>
> As I have made abundantly clear, I do not
On Tue, 2019-11-05 at 13:26 -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brandon Invergo
> wrote:
> > Can we just leave it there?
>
> I don't think we can. RMS is GNU's leader, and his public comments,
> whether or not they are specifically about free software, are
>
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 02:29:31PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> Non-GNU topics are off-topic for GNU lists, it is that simple.
I suppose we agree here, but are you sure you replied to the correct message?
David used the word "GNU" twice in his, so I can only assume it must have
been somewhat
Dora Scilipoti writes:
> How and by whom they were appointed remains unknown. Certainly not by
> the GNU project. So the most plausible answer is that they took it by force.
That is not true, and it is an unfair accusation of Carlos and Mark. As
I just wrote in another message, unfounded
Thompson, David writes:
> So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
> lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
> Surely a coincidence.
As I have made abundantly clear, I do not intend to discuss internal GNU
matters on a public list. I invite you
Hello,
On Tue, Nov 05, 2019 at 12:46:42PM -0500, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote:
> In the GNU project everyone is welcome, even people who do not share
> the goals and philosophy of the GNU project.
I do not think this makes sense, actually. As soon as we have a bit of
responsibility in GNU (like being
"Thompson, David" wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:54 PM Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "Thompson, David" wrote:
>> > So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How lovely.
>> > The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since. Surely a
>> >
> That is quite the misrepresentation of the situation. How moderators
> are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or persons
> moderating the list -- so nobody got "ousted".
This list was created +30 years ago by the founder and early members of
the GNU Project. It was
Non-GNU topics are off-topic for GNU lists, it is that simple.
Peoples personal opinions are just that, if you wish to discuss it
with a person it is best done so with the person.
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 1:54 PM Dmitry Alexandrov <321...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> "Thompson, David" wrote:
> > So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How lovely.
> > The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since. Surely a
> > coincidence.
>
> FWIW, I do not think
"Thompson, David" wrote:
> So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How lovely. The
> discourse here has gotten considerably worse since. Surely a coincidence.
FWIW, I do not think so, on the contrary, Iʼm pleased to see even a small shift
in a discourse from
Brandon Invergo wrote:
> Dmitry Alexandrov writes:
>> Iʼm afraid, you conflated two points. Publicity that undermine the core
>> competency of an organization — yes, is perhaps is the most harmful thing
>> for it.
>>
>> While negative publicity on irrelevant topics is either much less harmful,
> How moderators
> are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or persons
> moderating the list -- so nobody got "ousted".
This list was created +30 years ago by the founder and early members of
the GNU Project as a place where people would be free to express their
concerns and
On 2019-11-05 02:59, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me:
that
Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by
not
doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
rest of us.
Funny though, I'm
On Tue, Nov 5, 2019 at 12:59 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
>
> As I previously requested, please let's drop discussions of particular
> people, especially when it comes to what they said or did outside of
> GNU. I know you are not attacking but standing in rms's defense,
> however at this point
> You send a patch, you contribute documentation, you work on Savannah,
> you don't sign or agree to anything to become a member of the GNU
> project.
That wholy depends on what you call a "member". I indeed don't consider
that you'd have to sign or agree on anything (except
So you ousted the moderators that added you as moderators? How
lovely. The discourse here has gotten considerably worse since.
Surely a coincidence.
That is quite the misrepresentation of the situation. How moderators
are assigned is done by the GNU project, not by the person or
Dmitry Alexandrov writes:
> Sandra Loosemore wrote:
>> The absolute worst thing the public-facing representative of *any*
>> organization can do is bring negative publicity to the organization
>> about things that are irrelevant or contrary to the organization's
>> mission.
>
> Iʼm afraid, you
Alfred M. Szmidt, le mar. 05 nov. 2019 12:46:42 -0500, a ecrit:
> > I guess that leads to a new sub-task: defining the procedure to
> > become a “member� of the project.
>
> You send a patch, you contribute documentation, you work on Savannah,
> you don't sign or agree to anything to become a
We could define âmemberâ as someone who signed the social contract, but
thatâs probably not enough: a group of people could make a hostile
takeover by signing it en masse. So there needs to be some form of
cooptation to avoid that, as is commonly done in organizations.
A GNU
I began learning about/researching free software over the summer of 2019 and
got my libre computer in September. I've never had a chance to see an RMS
talk (I wasn't aware free software was even a thing), and since he has
resigned from the FSF I am wondering if he is still giving any? I
Sandra Loosemore wrote:
> The absolute worst thing the public-facing representative of *any*
> organization can do is bring negative publicity to the organization about
> things that are irrelevant or contrary to the organization's mission.
Iʼm afraid, you conflated two points. Publicity that
On Sun, Nov 3, 2019 at 12:41 PM Brandon Invergo wrote:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> For the past month or so, every message to the list has been subject to
> moderation, so-called "emergency moderation". It has become clear that
> the moderation was being used in a biased manner. We have decided to
>
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:11:25 CET, vous avez écrit :
> On 11/5/19 12:11 PM, Alexandre François Garreau wrote:
> > Stop that. Insults are even more meaningless now you’ve kept repeating
> > them
>
> Hes an animal and your an idiot if you think you can reason with him.
You and me are both
Samuel Thibault writes:
> Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
>
> Samuel
Ruben has been placed under moderation and I rejected the message that
you are referring to. If you received it, it's because he sent it to
you personally (I guess by scraping the email addresses of everyone who
has
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 18:04:56 CET, vous avez écrit :
> How about this. You are a [insults insults insults etc…]
Stop that. Insults are even more meaningless now you’ve kept repeating them
that much for the same irrational reasons (anyway insults are always
irrational, as most of time it
Wow, this is so welcoming a community...
Samuel
> I’m surprised it’s news to you that Ruben (among others) is attacking
> people personally; that’s something you could have learned from the
> previous moderators.
Maybe their definition of "personal attack" is broader and not quite as
specific as yours or the previous moderators.
> How did
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 11:59:18 CET Ludovic Courtès a écrit :
> silenced the rest of us.
How’s that? Pre-moderation were off, afaiu.
Also, what likely best silenced some people is likely the previous hours and
timezones and the sleep that commonly occurs for them during them.
> In [24
On 11/5/19 10:34 PM, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Sure, we’ll talk about governance (no quotes) as much as possible,
> meaning as much as the signal-to-noise ratio doesn’t prevent that.
> Governance is very much on-topic for this list.
One person's noise is another person's signal. Also, as Heinlein
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019 17:30:18 CET, vous avez écrit :
> Alexandre François Garreau writes:
> > Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by
> > people, and currently a single one)? as it was stated before (for
> > instance by Dora)
> Consider the difference between
Alexandre François Garreau writes:
> Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by
> people,
> and currently a single one)? as it was stated before (for instance by Dora)
Consider the difference between "how does the consensus model compare to
the committee model?"
Le mardi 5 novembre 2019, 13:45:57 CET Brandon Invergo a écrit :
> This is not a place to discuss other people.
> You are welcome to continue to discuss whatever "governance" issues you
> would like here,
Aren’t these two statements contradictory (as governance is made of by people,
and
a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote:
>Whatʼs about Readline and Tivoization, though?
>
> With Readline I was refering to how GNU clisp used readline
Ah! Thanks.
>> To understand a opposition, one needs to know the why. Taking your
> statement at face value as to what might have
Jean Louis wrote:
> * gameonli...@redchan.it [2019-11-04 12:56]:
>> Reasons fewer men contribute to GNU:
>> - Have to reveal identity.
>
> That is not quite so. In America country it is possible to use pen names.
Why is it specific to ‘America country’ (whatever it is)?
I thought, contributing
Hi Brandon,
Brandon Invergo skribis:
> Ludovic Courtès writes:
>
>> A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me: that
>> Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by not
>> doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
>>
Ludovic Courtès writes:
> A bit more than 24 hours later, two things have become clear to me: that
> Mark and Carlos were indeed doing a good moderation job, and that by not
> doing any moderation, you’ve opened the flood gates and silenced the
> rest of us.
>
> In that time we got ~100
gameonli...@redchan.it wrote:
> The video in Putins Russia
> Putins Russia
> Putins
???
> The video in … Russia this year was very good; you should put that on the GNU
> page
Which one? RMS gave several speeches during his last visit to Russia: two in
SPb and one in Moscow, IIRC.
> also
Hi again Brandon,
Ludovic Courtès skribis:
> I think Mark and Carlos have done a great job. I am happy that this
> list was host to constructive discussions and not as toxic as the
> private GNU lists. I am concerned that about the ability to continue
> discussing constructively going
Hi Andreas,
Andreas Enge skribis:
> These are good points. I wrote "that respect users' freedom" everywhere,
> and spoke a bit more vaguely of "systems", as well as dropped all references
> to computers. Given that the document is aimed to be valid longterm, there
> should indeed be some
Jean Louis wrote:
> "Restricting yourself to just one message a day to the list is not a bad
> thing." -- that is nonsense and shall be removed. By imposing speed of
> thinking and speed of writing you are hindering speed of communication and
> thus any solutions and friendship balances to
gameonli...@redchan.it wrote:
> On 2019-11-03 19:33, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
>> nipponp...@airmail.cc wrote:
>>> Testing if I can post to this list, probably not since you guys censor
>>> everything (so that RMS can't see his supporters.)
>>
>> gameonli...@redchan.it wrote:
>>> Why do you censor
a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote:
> Please keep discussions related to technical issues about the GNU system,
> non-free platforms are entierly off-topic for this list.
Please note, @gameonli...@redchan.it sent his letter to two m/l:
gnu-system-disc...@gnu.org and
On 11/5/19 3:07 AM, Florian Weimer wrote:
> * nipponmail:
>
>> Getting GNU/Linux onto a laptop these days is quite the difficulty if
>> you don't know what you're doing because of Secure Boot. It's not a plug
>> and play thing like once it was. Probably discourages alot of users.
>
> Sure, and
* Marcel:
> On 11/5/19 4:11 AM, Florian Weimer wrote:
>> The FSF has given out an award in support of Secure Boot-related work,
>> so its approach to the matter is rather ambiguous.
>
> Looking through fsf.org I couldn't find any award in support of "Secure
> Boot" related work, would you mind
* nipponmail:
> It does not matter how common this way of doing buisness is.
> It is still a blatant violation of the Copyright holders terms.
>
> The Copyright holder has allowed GrSecurity to do something they, by
> default, have no right to do (create and distribute [non-seperable]
>
* nipponmail:
> Getting GNU/Linux onto a laptop these days is quite the difficulty if
> you don't know what you're doing because of Secure Boot. It's not a plug
> and play thing like once it was. Probably discourages alot of users.
Sure, and that was totally predictable. But what can we do
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