Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Thanks for your suggestion. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 8th, 2023 On 2023/1/8 6:30, Gyle McCollam wrote: I agree John, this is as close as you need to get to automatic reconciliation. The only items you need to look at are the ones that don't match and Gnucash would have no way of knowing what is correct. Thank You, Gyle McCollam Gyle McCollam gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com> email From: gnucash-user on behalf of John Layman Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2023 10:35 AM To: 'Jim DeLaHunt' ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function GnuCash already provides the nearest thing resembling "automatic" reconciliation. It requires periodically downloading and importing account activity from the bank to mark which transactions have 'cleared'. Then, in reconciliation, GnuCash automatically 'ticks' the cleared transactions. Nine times out of ten in my experience, this reconciles the account with the bank statement. There is no logical way to "automagically" reconcile discrepancies. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of Jim DeLaHunt Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 8:35 PM To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function Bite Gao: Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am glad to have your ideas in this discussion. While I think I understand what feature you are asking for, I do see some difficulties with it. For example, you say: On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: …For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank statement.… Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process.… The obvious difficulty is that for a single transaction, the text in the GnuCash file is probably different than the text in its counterpart in the bank statement. For example, suppose I have a weekly purchase where I enter the description as "SPUD, Vancouver BC" and the date as January 5, but the bank statement may say "Small Potatoes Delivery * Paypal" and the date as January 6. It is difficult — not impossible, but difficult — for GnuCash to see that these two transactions are counterparts. Their description text and their dates differ. It turns out that GnuCash's Import Matcher can successfully recognise the link between these two. But it often makes mistakes in this process. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic reconciliation. What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the split as reconciled. Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 7th, 2021 On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the automated process makes a mistake? Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and methodically verify the information. Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to read stuff backwards when proofing!) That is a pretty good analogy too: If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for your financial records? Regards, Adrien On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institutio
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
I agree John, this is as close as you need to get to automatic reconciliation. The only items you need to look at are the ones that don't match and Gnucash would have no way of knowing what is correct. Thank You, Gyle McCollam Gyle McCollam gmccol...@live.com<mailto:gmccol...@gyleshomes.com> email From: gnucash-user on behalf of John Layman Sent: Saturday, January 7, 2023 10:35 AM To: 'Jim DeLaHunt' ; gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function GnuCash already provides the nearest thing resembling "automatic" reconciliation. It requires periodically downloading and importing account activity from the bank to mark which transactions have 'cleared'. Then, in reconciliation, GnuCash automatically 'ticks' the cleared transactions. Nine times out of ten in my experience, this reconciles the account with the bank statement. There is no logical way to "automagically" reconcile discrepancies. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of Jim DeLaHunt Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 8:35 PM To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function Bite Gao: Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am glad to have your ideas in this discussion. While I think I understand what feature you are asking for, I do see some difficulties with it. For example, you say: On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: > …For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its > counterpart in the bank statement.… Personally, I do not found that > how computer program could make mistake in this process.… The obvious difficulty is that for a single transaction, the text in the GnuCash file is probably different than the text in its counterpart in the bank statement. For example, suppose I have a weekly purchase where I enter the description as "SPUD, Vancouver BC" and the date as January 5, but the bank statement may say "Small Potatoes Delivery * Paypal" and the date as January 6. It is difficult — not impossible, but difficult — for GnuCash to see that these two transactions are counterparts. Their description text and their dates differ. It turns out that GnuCash's Import Matcher can successfully recognise the link between these two. But it often makes mistakes in this process. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: > GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: > Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in > automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic > reconciliation. > What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates > the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from > both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record in > the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank > statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the > split as reconciled. > Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make > mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have > that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. > > Yours, > >Bite Gao > Jan 7th, 2021 > > On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: > >> I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and >> verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the >> automated process makes a mistake? >> >> Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate >> that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and >> methodically verify the information. >> >> Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to >> read stuff backwards when proofing!) >> >> That is a pretty good analogy too: >> >> If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and >> grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and >> have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when >> the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for >> your financial records? >> >> Regards, >> Adrien >> >> On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: >>> GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: >>>Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human >>> intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts >>> with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. >>>In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the >>> account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement >>> from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record >>> are identic
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
GnuCash already provides the nearest thing resembling "automatic" reconciliation. It requires periodically downloading and importing account activity from the bank to mark which transactions have 'cleared'. Then, in reconciliation, GnuCash automatically 'ticks' the cleared transactions. Nine times out of ten in my experience, this reconciles the account with the bank statement. There is no logical way to "automagically" reconcile discrepancies. -Original Message- From: gnucash-user On Behalf Of Jim DeLaHunt Sent: Friday, January 6, 2023 8:35 PM To: gnucash-user@gnucash.org Subject: Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function Bite Gao: Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am glad to have your ideas in this discussion. While I think I understand what feature you are asking for, I do see some difficulties with it. For example, you say: On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: > …For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its > counterpart in the bank statement.… Personally, I do not found that > how computer program could make mistake in this process.… The obvious difficulty is that for a single transaction, the text in the GnuCash file is probably different than the text in its counterpart in the bank statement. For example, suppose I have a weekly purchase where I enter the description as "SPUD, Vancouver BC" and the date as January 5, but the bank statement may say "Small Potatoes Delivery * Paypal" and the date as January 6. It is difficult — not impossible, but difficult — for GnuCash to see that these two transactions are counterparts. Their description text and their dates differ. It turns out that GnuCash's Import Matcher can successfully recognise the link between these two. But it often makes mistakes in this process. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: > GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: > Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in > automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic > reconciliation. > What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates > the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from > both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record in > the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank > statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the > split as reconciled. > Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make > mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have > that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. > > Yours, > >Bite Gao > Jan 7th, 2021 > > On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: > >> I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and >> verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the >> automated process makes a mistake? >> >> Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate >> that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and >> methodically verify the information. >> >> Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to >> read stuff backwards when proofing!) >> >> That is a pretty good analogy too: >> >> If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and >> grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and >> have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when >> the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for >> your financial records? >> >> Regards, >> Adrien >> >> On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: >>> GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: >>>Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human >>> intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts >>> with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. >>>In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the >>> account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement >>> from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record >>> are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not >>> identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no >>> point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An >>> automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from >>> the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the >>> accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human >>> accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
Bite Gao, Jim mentions the import matcher, and I reiterate here to emphasize that GnuCash provides most of what you're asking, but places it in the import process, rather than in reconciliation. A user can match incoming entries to existing ones. They can also set the reconcile flag to "C" for imported transactions, which will automatically check those entries on the next reconciliation. These are both key parts of your proposal. And the problems that others raised continue to undermine the idea. David T. On Jan 7, 2023, 4:35 AM, at 4:35 AM, Jim DeLaHunt wrote: >Bite Gao: > >Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am glad to have your >ideas >in this discussion. > >While I think I understand what feature you are asking for, I do see >some difficulties with it. For example, you say: > >On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: >> …For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its >> counterpart in the bank statement.… Personally, I do not found that >> how computer program could make mistake in this process.… > >The obvious difficulty is that for a single transaction, the text in >the >GnuCash file is probably different than the text in its counterpart in >the bank statement. For example, suppose I have a weekly purchase where > >I enter the description as "SPUD, Vancouver BC" and the date as January > >5, but the bank statement may say "Small Potatoes Delivery * Paypal" >and >the date as January 6. It is difficult — not impossible, but difficult > >— for GnuCash to see that these two transactions are counterparts. >Their >description text and their dates differ. > >It turns out that GnuCash's Import Matcher can successfully recognise >the link between these two. But it often makes mistakes in this >process. > >Best regards, > —Jim DeLaHunt > > >On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: >> GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: >> Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in >> automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic >> reconciliation. >> What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates >> the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from >> both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record >in >> the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank >> statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the >> split as reconciled. >> Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make >> mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have >> that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. >> >> Yours, >> >> Bite Gao >> Jan 7th, 2021 >> >> On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: >> >>> I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and >>> verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the >>> automated process makes a mistake? >>> >>> Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate >>> that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and >>> methodically verify the information. >>> >>> Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to > >>> read stuff backwards when proofing!) >>> >>> That is a pretty good analogy too: >>> >>> If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and > >>> grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and >>> have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when >>> the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for > >>> your financial records? >>> >>> Regards, >>> Adrien >>> >>> On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it >contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its >no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from > the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the > accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manu al reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
Bite Gao: Thank you for continuing this conversation. I am glad to have your ideas in this discussion. While I think I understand what feature you are asking for, I do see some difficulties with it. For example, you say: On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: …For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank statement.… Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process.… The obvious difficulty is that for a single transaction, the text in the GnuCash file is probably different than the text in its counterpart in the bank statement. For example, suppose I have a weekly purchase where I enter the description as "SPUD, Vancouver BC" and the date as January 5, but the bank statement may say "Small Potatoes Delivery * Paypal" and the date as January 6. It is difficult — not impossible, but difficult — for GnuCash to see that these two transactions are counterparts. Their description text and their dates differ. It turns out that GnuCash's Import Matcher can successfully recognise the link between these two. But it often makes mistakes in this process. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic reconciliation. What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the split as reconciled. Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 7th, 2021 On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the automated process makes a mistake? Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and methodically verify the information. Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to read stuff backwards when proofing!) That is a pretty good analogy too: If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for your financial records? Regards, Adrien On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manu al reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
You are asking for the impossible. It is not possible to predict all the possible ways a computer program could make a mistake. It's just not knowable. On 2023-01-06 17:22, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: ... Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 7th, 2021 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you pinpoint out the possibility of a mistake in automated process, it did not eliminate the meaning of the automatic reconciliation. What an automatic reconciliation does is: the program concatenates the transaction's date, check number and the transaction amount from both the bank statement and the GnuCash file. For each split record in the GnuCash file, the program scan for its counterpart in the bank statement. And when the counterpart is found, the program marks the split as reconciled. Personally, I do not found that how computer program could make mistake in this process. If you believe that the computer could have that happen, I would like to learn the detail about it. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 7th, 2021 On 2023/1/6 20:57, Adrien Monteleone wrote: I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the automated process makes a mistake? Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and methodically verify the information. Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to read stuff backwards when proofing!) That is a pretty good analogy too: If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for your financial records? Regards, Adrien On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manu al reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
Bite Gao: Thank you for your feature request. And thank you for your second message, where you make your request clear enough that I finally understand it. What I think you are requesting is that GnuCash's Reconciliation command add an option for GnuCash to read in a data file supplied by the bank. This data file has the same information as the bank's human-readable statement, but in a machine-readable form. GnuCash reads a starting and ending statement balance from the data file. Then GnuCash attempts to match each transaction in the data file with a transaction in the data file. It does the equivalent of marking the matching transactions in the GnuCash register as tentatively reconciled, and ends by displaying a list of GnuCash and data file transactions which it could not match. This list might be empty. Then the human modifies the tentative reconciliations, or accepts them, and finishes the reconciliation. The final state of the Register after reconciliation with the aid of a data file is the same as after reconciliation by the human using the human-readable statement. To me, the matching which this requires is not very different from what the Import Matcher does. So, if the data file is a format which GnuCash can read, say an OFX file or a CSV file with the right configuration, then it seems feasible to use a data file to help reconciliation. And, this request does not seem to require reading the human-readable content of a PDF file. Bite Gao: do you have banks which provide statements as machine-readable data files? If so, what format does the bank provide? Do the start and end dates of the data file match the start and end dates of the human-readable statement? Does the bank certify that the data file has the same transaction and balance content as the human-readable statement, and is just as trustworthy? Among my statements from banks, credit cards, and investment companies, all provide human-readable statements in PDF format. Most provide transaction data in CSV format, and only some provide data in OFX or QFX or QIF format. Most provide data files with the same start and end dates as the human-readable statement, but some offer only my choice of arbitrary start and end date. I could choose dates for a transaction data file which match a statement's dates. But none of my statement providers certify that the data files have the same content as the human-readable statement. If there were a difference, I am pretty sure they would tell me that the data file is wrong and the human-readable file is correct. And reconciling to an incorrect data file is not helpful. Thus, I can imagine that — for me, with my present statements — reading in a transaction data file to help with reconciliation would turn a 10-minute task into a 5-minute task in most cases, but not in all cases. Bite Gao, do I understand you correctly? What machine-readable data files do your banks provide? Maybe your banks offer options which mine do not offer. Best regards, —Jim DeLaHunt On 2023-01-05 17:50, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manual reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. Yours, Bite, Gao Jan 6th, 2023 On 2023/1/5 12:03, Liz Dodd Wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:42:41 +0800 Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While your software has done many tedious jobs previously done by accountants manually, it cannot automatically reconcile its accounting data to the bank statement in its digital form. In my opinion, the automation of reconciliation is not only efficient but also accurate since it reduces human-caused errors. I
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
hi On 1/6/23 09:16, David T. via gnucash-user wrote: Call me old school, but I want to check that the bank and I agree on the accounting, and I consider me to be the best judge of my transaction history. isn't that the whole *point* of reconciliation after all ... ? (so i would call you "careful" before "old school" (but i'm not prone to name caling anyway)) ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
I agree with Adrien here fully, as well as with other points made elsewhere in the thread. As an open source software package, it's certainly possible for *someone* to write code for an automatic reconciliation, but I certainly wouldn't want the feature myself. Call me old school, but I want to check that the bank and I agree on the accounting, and I consider me to be the best judge of my transaction history. David T. On Jan 6, 2023, 3:59 PM, at 3:59 PM, Adrien Monteleone wrote: >I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and verifying > >every transaction, how do you ever discover when the automated process >makes a mistake? > >Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate >that >the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and methodically >verify the information. > >Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to >read stuff backwards when proofing!) > >That is a pretty good analogy too: > >If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and >grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and >have >seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when the >computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for your >financial records? > >Regards, >Adrien > >On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: >> GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: >> Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene >in >> the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the >> presence of automatically reconciliation system. >> In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the >> account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from > >> other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are >> identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not >identical. >> Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point >wasting >> time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic >reconciliation >> system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares >the >> statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints >the >> discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform >> manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with >banks, >> etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system >> have no reason to block manu >> al reconciliation. >> Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant >> overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not >spend >> too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction >would >> be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if >there >> do have a discrepancy. > >___ >gnucash-user mailing list >gnucash-user@gnucash.org >To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: >https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user >- >Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. >You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
I understand your explanation, but if you aren't checking and verifying every transaction, how do you ever discover when the automated process makes a mistake? Reconciliation was invented long before computers, but I appreciate that the process demands one to slow down, take your time, and methodically verify the information. Think of it as proof-reading - the hard way. (I learned in school to read stuff backwards when proofing!) That is a pretty good analogy too: If you've ever used auto-correct with auto-checking for spelling and grammar, or auto-suggestion or auto-completion for entire words and have seen the embarrassment and/or nightmare that can produce when the computer 'gets it wrong', would you want something like that for your financial records? Regards, Adrien On 1/5/23 7:50 PM, Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manu al reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
On Fri, 6 Jan 2023 at 01:50, Bite Gao wrote: > GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. Yours, > > Bite, Gao > Jan 6th, 2023 I think this is a very tricky AI problem, and possibly the subject of a PhD research degree. There seems to be two aspects to this 1) Given a set of data from a bank, and a set of transactions entered into GnuCash, is there any possibility that they could reconcile? Automatically determining if reconciliation is impossible is probably not too tricky. It might be computationally demanding, but a brute force method of trying every possible combination of debits and credits could determine if reconciliation is possible in one or more ways, or totally impossible. No artificial intelligence is required - just brute force work. Some not particularly difficult work could determine if reconciliation is impossible without much work at all. For example, if a bank account has risen by more than the sum of all the debts, ignoring all the credits. 2) Much more tricky would to determine if any possible combination of matches is accurate. I think that would be a very tricky indeed. Recently I had in my GnuCash account a payment to Mouser £113. The invoice from Mouser said £113. A line in the bank statement showed £113, and said Mouser on the same line. I reconciled that. Only later when I looked at the PayPal account did I see that Mouser had been paid with PayPal. So the money didn’t move directly from my bank account to Mouser, but via another account I have. I suspect any automatic procedure would struggle with issues like these unless all banks and similar places indicate information in a well documented and internationally accepted manner. Dave > -- Dr. David Kirkby, Kirkby Microwave Ltd, drkir...@kirkbymicrowave.co.uk https://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Telephone 01621-680100./ +44 1621 680100 Registered in England & Wales, company number 08914892. Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Althorne, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
Bite, Another difficulty is that most banks currently provide statements (as distinct from OFX or CSV transactional records which are not necessarily certified by the bank to be correct) in a pdf form and not a digital form. These are not easily imported into GnuCash for use in reconciliation procedure. At present this would require an OCR read and conversion to an appropriate digital format. Sure it is doable in principle, but the point of reconciliation is to assure yourself that the transactions have been entered/imp[orted correctly and the external and internal views of your accounts conincide. Just like the import matching process, you would then have to check that the reconciliation has automatically correctly matched every transaction. A priori, you don't know which ones it has correctly or incorrectly matched. No matching procedure is going to be perfect all of the time. It may miss a match to transactions which it should have matched and it may match to transactions it should not have. When you rely on an automated procedure, particularly when it is reliable most of the time, but maybe incorrect occasionally, you are less likely to pick up the few times when it is not correct and that is the whole point of a manual reconciliation. The current reconciliation process does not waste time on already reconciled transactions, it assumes they have been correctly reconciled up to the closing date of the last reconciled statement. Whether the developers feel this is worth doing will likely depend on banks widely adopting a digital statement format suitable for importing into GnuCash and whether they feel the coding effort is worth the productivity gains which might result. If they don't, feel free to start coding it yourself. Does your bank produce OFX statements which are certified by their accountant to be a true and correct record up to a specified date? If not there is little point in the discussion. M y bank does not provide statements in this format and AFAIK has no intention to in the forseeable future. Banks that do produce proper digital statements currently use (Europe)MT940 and/or the (US)BAI2 format On Fri, 2023-01-06 at 09:50 +0800, Bite Gao wrote: > GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: > Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the > reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of > automatically reconciliation system. > In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book > with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). > He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may > found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human > notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting > transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital > statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in > the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human > accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other > vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the > automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manual reconciliation. > Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an > discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on > identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. > However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. > Yours, > > Bite, Gao > Jan 6th, 2023 > > On 2023/1/5 12:03, Liz Dodd Wrote: > > On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:42:41 +0800 > > Bite Gao wrote: > > > > > GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: > > > Hello! While your software has done many tedious jobs previously > > > done by > > > accountants manually, it cannot automatically reconcile its > > > accounting data > > > to the bank statement in its digital form. In my opinion, the > > > automation of > > > reconciliation is not only efficient but also accurate since it > > > reduces human-caused errors. > > > I would appreciate you a lot if you could add an > > > auto-reconciliation function to your software. > > > Yours, > > > Bite Gao > > > Jan 4th, 2023 > > Bite, this is an interesting idea, but to me reconciliation requires > > human input. > > While I manually reconcile, I have to attend to pending transactions, > > for example a payment made on a card which never is taken from the bank > > account. At what time do I take that from the active list? Where will I > > put the the never finished transactions? > > > > A number which is different in my list to the banks? How will I check > > for the correct number? When do I contact the bank? > > > > They are human decisions, different in each jurisdiction. > > They are the reason I reconcile - not to have my numbers the same
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While you have mentioned the requirement of human intervene in the reconciliation process, I do not see it contradicts with the presence of automatically reconciliation system. In a reconcile process, the accountant check the record in the account book with the record in the bank statement (or statement from other institution). He (or she) may found out that two record are identical, or he (or she) may found that some record are not identical. Only the latter requires human notice, since there its no point wasting time on reconciled accounting transactions. An automatic reconciliation system can load the digital statement from the institution, compares the statement with the transaction in the accounting book, and pinpoints the discrepancies out. Then human accountant could step in and perform manual operations, such as checking other vouchers, contact with banks, etc. In the situation of single user, the automatic reconcile system have no reason to block manual reconciliation. Besides, when I means "human err", I means that the accountant overlook an discrepancy and regards it as identical. People do not spend too much time on identical records, since major of the transaction would be in that state. However, it could cause severe consequences if there do have a discrepancy. Yours, Bite, Gao Jan 6th, 2023 On 2023/1/5 12:03, Liz Dodd Wrote: On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:42:41 +0800 Bite Gao wrote: GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While your software has done many tedious jobs previously done by accountants manually, it cannot automatically reconcile its accounting data to the bank statement in its digital form. In my opinion, the automation of reconciliation is not only efficient but also accurate since it reduces human-caused errors. I would appreciate you a lot if you could add an auto-reconciliation function to your software. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 4th, 2023 Bite, this is an interesting idea, but to me reconciliation requires human input. While I manually reconcile, I have to attend to pending transactions, for example a payment made on a card which never is taken from the bank account. At what time do I take that from the active list? Where will I put the the never finished transactions? A number which is different in my list to the banks? How will I check for the correct number? When do I contact the bank? They are human decisions, different in each jurisdiction. They are the reason I reconcile - not to have my numbers the same as the banks, but to see the discrepancies and decide on an action. Could you please describe more what you want from automated reconciliation? Your statement about "human-caused errors" implies that reconciliation introduces errors rather than highlights them. Liz ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All. ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
Re: [GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
On Wed, 4 Jan 2023 15:42:41 +0800 Bite Gao wrote: >GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: > Hello! While your software has done many tedious jobs previously >done by >accountants manually, it cannot automatically reconcile its > accounting data >to the bank statement in its digital form. In my opinion, the >automation of >reconciliation is not only efficient but also accurate since it > reduces human-caused errors. > I would appreciate you a lot if you could add an > auto-reconciliation function to your software. > Yours, > Bite Gao >Jan 4th, 2023 Bite, this is an interesting idea, but to me reconciliation requires human input. While I manually reconcile, I have to attend to pending transactions, for example a payment made on a card which never is taken from the bank account. At what time do I take that from the active list? Where will I put the the never finished transactions? A number which is different in my list to the banks? How will I check for the correct number? When do I contact the bank? They are human decisions, different in each jurisdiction. They are the reason I reconcile - not to have my numbers the same as the banks, but to see the discrepancies and decide on an action. Could you please describe more what you want from automated reconciliation? Your statement about "human-caused errors" implies that reconciliation introduces errors rather than highlights them. Liz ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
[GNC] Request for Automatic Reconciliation Function
GnuCash Developers and Maintainers: Hello! While your software has done many tedious jobs previously done by accountants manually, it cannot automatically reconcile its accounting data to the bank statement in its digital form. In my opinion, the automation of reconciliation is not only efficient but also accurate since it reduces human-caused errors. I would appreciate you a lot if you could add an auto-reconciliation function to your software. Yours, Bite Gao Jan 4th, 2023 ___ gnucash-user mailing list gnucash-user@gnucash.org To update your subscription preferences or to unsubscribe: https://lists.gnucash.org/mailman/listinfo/gnucash-user - Please remember to CC this list on all your replies. You can do this by using Reply-To-List or Reply-All.
