Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
I will now offer the challenge back in more time... lets try since
1949. Not a textile, accessory, or method of clothing... a new silhouette.
I was going to say shoes of molded plastic. But, as for new silhouettes,
what about some of Miyaki's stuff? A lot of it's not even body shaped.
CarolynKayta Barrows
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www.FunStuft.com
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Re: [h-cost] Re: US Reenacting (was: why renaissance and not 18th century?)
At 07:18 PM 9/22/2005, you wrote: I suspect in fact (though maybe incorrectly) that there are more 18th century reenactors in America then there are Renn Faire participants. Not more than there are ren faire gusests or customers however. Not more than there are SCA members either. Well, in my neck of Central California, there are far more Ren-faire re-enactors than any other time frame. I know of Civil War, Gold Rush/Western/Cowboy, WWI and WWII, and a small smattering here and there in time frames (again, mostly war settings). But when it comes to Ren-faire actors, I would estimate 800-1000 +/- actors that have shown up to local ren-faires and were checked in with arm-bands on any one weekend. And that's at the smaller faires that only go on for the one weekend (I used to help run Hanford Renaissance of Kings, one of the smallest, yet rather popular small ren-faires.) I would love to be involved in other time frames for re-enactment and costuming, but unless I want to drive 4+ hours to Sacramento, the Bay Area, or Los Angeles, with small children in tow, there isn't much available in my area. However, our small local costuming group is working on doing other eras, and we are starting small... with a Victorian Tea up in Oakhurst sometime this upcoming spring, and hopefully it will grow from there. Kimiko Small The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, safety first instead of duty first, a love of soft living and the get-rich-quick theory of life. This country will not be a permanently good place for any of us to live unless it is a good place for all of us to live. ~ Teddy Roosevelt. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] why 16th and not 18th
Gosh what a mess i have made with that question. I dont have the time pressent to read all your topics, my train leaves in 2 hours going to join the Gustavian Society, and had to pack my things. This time i will wear my green embroidered court suit, and i have changed my wig to another hairstyle. Washed it gently in hair shampoo and set the curls with hairgel. Gosh just remembered i didnt pack my shoes and my cloak, must do that emediately. Returns sunday evening, so there will be a lot of reading to take care of. Stockholm gets chilly in the evenings this time of year. Bjarne Leif og Bjarne Drews www.my-drewscostumes.dk http://home0.inet.tele.dk/drewscph/ ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
Chanel, Dior,Bali, and Levi Strauss Kathleen - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:07 PM Subject: [h-cost] the 20th century All this talk about like one century or another... Now that the 20th century is over, what do you think the big clothing thing will be that defines it? Y'knowwhat quality will it be known for, you think? What garment? I have my own answers but I wonder what others think. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
winkle pickers. ??? arlys ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Come Back
Suzi, Come back, I miss your expertise! Rhonda Rhonda Donaldson LTA II e-Reserves Jr. Guru in Training Circulation Department Downtown Campus Library P O Box 6069 Morgantown, WV 26506 293-4040 x4094 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Without change, something sleeps inside us, and seldom awakens. The sleeper must awaken. --Frank Herbert The future belongs to those who believe in the beauty of their dreams. - Eleanor Roosevelt ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: the 20th century
From: Cynthia J Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] winkle pickers. ??? A particular long toed style of mens shoe popular in the 50s. Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: the 20th century
At 15:40 23/09/2005, you wrote: From: Cynthia J Ley [EMAIL PROTECTED] winkle pickers. ??? A particular long toed style of mens shoe popular in the 50s. Marc And women's. They are currently to be seen in shoe shops in Europe as a new fashion. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] the 20th century
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Pants, especially pants on women. Possibly blue jeans. **Excellent example. Blue jeans first came into being around 1849. Then were popularized in the 1950's and have remained in some form or another since then. Remember bell bottoms? Remember having to have Designer labels? Also interesting that this is a garment worn by men, women and children, rich and poor, fancy versions and work versions. I sometimes think about what reenactors might wear 400 years in the future. Maybe jeans and a t-shirt will be the future version of T-tunic, i.e. the basic garb for reenactors. Hmmm...T-tunic and T-shirt...coincidence? ;-) The thing about the 20th century is, that so much more has been published, that it's much harder for the works of any fiction writer to emerge from the sea of other stuff as even existing, let alone great or not. **Excellent point as well. There is so much, what can stand out? I know I love both Diana Gabaldon and Dickens. Who would you say are the stand-out writers of the 19th century? I'll tell you who I think the greatest 20th century writer is so far: Gene Wolfe. **Hmmm...not familiar with him. I'll have to hit the library. THanks for the lead. Julie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century
Several years ago I offered a challenge to h-costume to name a fashion since 1957 that was original design. I will now offer the challenge back in more time... lets try since 1949. Penny, I don't know why you are presenting h-costume with challenges, in classroom style, rather than just discussing topics. Not a textile, accessory, or method of clothing... a new silhouette. The reason I am changing from the 1950s to the 1940s... after my extensive research into fashions from the 1890s though the 1920s... most of the 1950s fashions can be seen in the 1890s through 1929. snip If you break it down as coarsely as you are doing, there _cannot_ be any more new silhouettes; if you do things like imply that all wasp-waisted fashions are basically the same. Geometrically speaking, there just _aren't_ that many possibilities. Nonetheless, New Look fashions are instantly recognizable as such, not mid 19th century or any other wasp-waisted period. Early 19th-century fashions are recognizable as not ancient Greek, and so on. There can be a new style, without there being a new silhouette. Two 20th-century trends that are rather new, if not exactly silhouettes: Fewer and less bulky clothes overall, particularly on women. Women wearing not only short skirts (and pants) but bare arms and low necks in the daytime. Even wearing lingerie, or tops and dresses that look like lingerie, as the visible layer of clothing. OK, there was the late 18th century chemise dress--but camis and slip dresses are skimpier. It's not the first time in history that clothing was reduced, as it were; but it's the most it's been reduced in Western society for a long time as mainstream fashion, worn by perfectly respectable women and accepted by everyone. (When you look at primitive societies, of course, there were lots of them wearing even less.) Also, the deconstructed look worn intentionally, not out of poverty; even expensively purchased. Things like fray skirts and not-just-asymmetrical-but-ragged hems on tops and skirts, high-contrast patches on clothes even if there was never a hole there, intentional tears in clothes. snip I laugh so much at my 14 y.o. daughter when she tells me, You don't know anything about fashion. I gave her this same challenge and then show her where the style was worn fashion before. snip The more you get into the researching a time period in depth, you realize that several styles were popular in one time period. Penny, h-costume is a group of people who have been studying historic fashion for some time. We are all part of the MTV generation. I've never seen MTV in my life and nothing whatever could induce me to do so. I don't even watch TV. We want everything fast and then throw it away in a short amount of time. We are all guilty of throw it away instead of repairing products. Not me, I'm a repair-it-until-it-totally-dies person. And h-costume has lots of members who restore vintage or antique clothes, who hand-sew clothes, and so on. . Look at all the clothing in thrift stores. There is so much clothing donated to stores like Goodwill. They only keep the best of the donated clothes. The others are bundled in very large bundles and shipped to foreign countries to be recycled into other textile products. H-costume members do a fair amount of shopping in thrift stores. Oh, I am going to make everyone feel old on the list... Last month, my daughter went shopping for school clothes. She was thrilled that she had the latest craze in teenage fashion jogging suits in several solid colors! I could not stop laughing when she proudly showed off her new school clothes to me. Made me want to sing Olivia Newton John song, Let's Get Physical! What goes around comes around! And she still says Mom doesn't know a single thing about fashion! I've never been quite sure who Olivia Newton John is, but I don't think I really want to know. I think she has something to do with music? but I don't listen to modern pop or rock or rap music, whatever the thing is now. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: the 20th century
winkle pickers.
A particular long toed style of mens shoe popular in the 50s.
Marc
And women's. They are currently to be seen in shoe shops in Europe as a
new fashion.
Suzi
Hmmm, my daughters have been wearing them here in Pennsylvania for almost
two years now. Nasty looking things.
I got a pair, at a thrift store, for use as Wicked Witch shoes for like
Halloween. For that they're perfect.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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Re: [h-cost] the 20th century-influences
In a message dated 9/23/2005 11:16:23 A.M. Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've never been quite sure who Olivia Newton John is, but I don't think I really want to know. I think she has something to do with music? but I don't listen to modern pop or rock or rap music, whatever the thing is now. My opinion is that if you don't understand MTV, VHS, Hip-Hop and the whole youth music culture your are probably incomplete in your assessment of what is going on with fashion in our culture. We no longer have one fashion which everyone tries to copy within their economic class. We have a fascination with youth sub-culture and you won't get that without music videos, etc. on these channels. There is a world culture now, like never before. We are truly becoming a world village with exchange of styles reinterpreted. Look at the Tokyo street culture for a creative take on Western fashion. The couture houses no longer dictate fashion. It comes from everywhere. Has anyone else noticed the recent fascination with death? What's up with that? Fashion, however you define it, has always been a reflection of the cultural and sub-cultural hegemony in Western Civilization. It's often referred to as Zeitgeist. Meaning it can only flower in the historic and socio-political environment of its time. So if something is, indeed, revisited (and it's never exactly the same), how is that reflected in what is going on in the culture? Sorry to be so effusive, but I am currently teaching a class I have labeled Clothing as Metaphor which deals with this specific issue. I just spent three hours in that class discussing war and emancipation and its relation to fashion in the 20th century, so am interested in the thread. By the way, if anyone is interested, we are using Fashion as Communication by Malcolm Barnard as a text. I am looking forward to the additional discussion. Cheryl Odom College of Santa Fe ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: the 20th century
From: Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] winkle pickers. ??? A particular long toed style of mens shoe popular in the 50s. And women's. They are currently to be seen in shoe shops in Europe as a new fashion. I could be mistaken, what with it being a fashion thing, but I -believe- the original style was a man's shoe. The term has just carried over with the more recent conckroach stompers. Marc ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century-influences
Fran wrote: I've never been quite sure who Olivia Newton John is, but I don't think I really want to know. I think she has something to do with music? but I don't listen to modern pop or rock or rap music, whatever the thing is now. Certainly there is some confusion when it's not clear if the statements were regarding H-Costume members or the larger society in general. We are definitely a knowledgeable group, and many ignore the 20th/21stC fashions in favor of historic clothing! I don't associate track/warmup/sweatsuits with Olivia Newton John, I thougt she wore 80s spandex in the Let's Get Physical video, and a whole range of styles seeing as she starred in the movie Grease and was originally a country singer. But I do remember when a friend and I lamented people wearing sweatpants in public - mid 80s? The next thing you know it was fashion (early 90s?). It was more the over 50 crowd wearing them, sweatsuits with wide colored stripes on the chest and down the leg, older couples matching or coordinating. -Carol ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] the 20th century-influences
My opinion is that if you don't understand MTV, VHS, Hip-Hop and the whole youth music culture your are probably incomplete in your assessment of what is going on with fashion in our culture. I've never been interested in modern pop or rock music, and that includes when I was a teenager. I was always a classical and folk music person. I did not grow up watching TV (my parents thought it was the intellectual equivalent of junk food). And I still don't watch it, because I largely agree with them. Any costume movies I want to see I can get on video. I don't need to subject myself to doing things I really dislike to feel hip. I've never been hip in my life, or wanted to be. My leisure time is limited, like everyone's. I'd rather spend mine reading books I really like than watching TV, and listening to music I like rather than music I don't. Aside from what I choose to wear every day, I'm not very interested in modern fashion. Or, in fact, in modern culture. It's just not what I like, or want to occupy my mind with. Sorry, but this is, after all, a group for people interested in historical subjects, not one for modern sociologists. However, considering that I'm always seeing people wearing modern fashion, seeing it sold in stores and on the net, seeing fashion columns in the newspapers, and reading fashion magazines, I think I have as good an idea as anyone of what people are wearing. I actually do a fair amount of fashion magazine reading and shopping to put together a modern wardrobe of things I really like that fit into, sort of, what is currently worn. Meaning I'm always looking for historic and vintage style revivals. We no longer have one fashion which everyone tries to copy within their economic class. We have a fascination with youth sub-culture and you won't get that without music videos, etc. on these channels. I'm very well aware of style diversity--if it weren't for that I'd have nothing to wear without looking like I was going to a costume party every day. We've had a fascination with youth culture since the 1960s. I've read a ton of articles on the subject, seen the clothes, etc., without ever turning on a TV. There is a world culture now, like never before. We are truly becoming a world village with exchange of styles reinterpreted. Look at the Tokyo street culture for a creative take on Western fashion. No kidding. I'd never have known that from looking at all those made in China and made in Thailand labels on my clothes for years. Or--this summer alone--from all those Indian kurtas I've been seeing for sale--and bought. Or from those cashmere ponchos I ordered from Nepal, the alapaca ones I got from Peru via eBay, the skirts I've been buying from a Thai seller on eBay, the kebayas I bought from Malaysia via the net, the sarongs I got from Indonesia. Even the fancy designer deconstructed Japanese skirts I bought (discounted!). The couture houses no longer dictate fashion. It comes from everywhere. This is exactly what I kept telling an (irritated) instructor back when I studied fashion design in college. Couture has not dictated fashion since the youth rebellion of the 1960s. Even before that, it was the province of the very rich. And it has never dicated fashion in the US the way it did, for a while, in Europe. However, MTV doesn't dictate all fashion either. Fashion, however you define it, has always been a reflection of the cultural and sub-cultural hegemony in Western Civilization. It's often referred to as Zeitgeist. Meaning it can only flower in the historic and socio-political environment of its time. So if something is, indeed, revisited (and it's never exactly the same), how is that reflected in what is going on in the culture? Y'know, it's not like I've never read a Fashion of Western Civilization book, or any scholarly studies on clothing history. I mean, I do have a degree in history (and another in publishing). I have completed college programs in fashion design and textile arts as well. I've also studied ethnic clothing (at the time I was studying weaving and such) and I've collected antique and vintage clothing since I was 16. And I've gotten by very nicely all this time without having to subject myself to MTV. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 617
Kimiko wrote: Read _The Cult of Elizabeth_ by Roy Strong (isbn 0-7126-6481-5) That's exactly what Strong suggests was done, since the Catholic faith was no longer the state faith. It's a lot more complicated it would seem than that, but Elizabeth became an icon for her people. It just didn't happen overnight, however. Well, it's good to know it had SOME context. But still, the way it was portrayed in the movie -- I just had to laugh! Not appreciated by the whole audience, I know, but I like to hope there was at least one person who was silently giggling. I've never read Roy Strong. Of course Elizabeth became an icon, but I don't think she just looked at a statue and decided to slop on some white makeup! And that's pretty much what the movie said. I remember, at the time the movie came out, someone on this list posted how silly it was that Elizabeth wouldn't have known that her lover was married. (I forget his name -- sudden blank mind.) And of course, it was ridiculous. The whole movie was ridiculous. Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century?
Not exactly answering the question that was asked but... I find it interesting what people choose to portray in different countries. In the UK, most people do something linked with where they are, or where they grew up, or perhaps a more distant family link. But the Americans and Australians I have met are more prepared to portray history from somewhere else entirely, doing Byzantine and Bulgarian medieval and all sorts. It seems that, because they don't have the [European] history of that time in their own country, they feel more free to just pick something they fancy. Jean Bjarne og Leif Drews [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote Sorry sorry folks, drinks on me! I ment why so much renaissance fairs and renaissance reenactors and not so many 18th century? - Original Message - From: Bjarne og Leif Drews [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 22, 2005 4:06 PM Subject: [h-cost] why renaissance and not 18th century? -- Jean Waddie ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 617
Penny wrote: We want everything fast and then throw it away in a short amount of time. We are all guilty of throw it away instead of repairing products. Mass production makes it so much cheaper to purchase a new product instead of repairing. This is not true in Europe, or at least it wasn't 10 years ago when I wrote an article about Benneton for a retail magazine. The company had opened US stores, but they failed miserably. They were trying to redo the stores, and the person in charge told me that the company had misunderstood the American market. Benneton sweaters, she told me, were considered middle-priced clothing in Europe, while here they were considered expensive (they were about $80 on sale then). The company was not geared to a wear it for a year or two and get rid of it mentality. They expected people to keep their Benneton clothes for a long time. She also explained that Benneton did not have any ladies' dress jackets, and that this was a staple of American women's work wardrobes (dress blouse, dress skirts, and dress jackets, all of them mix and match). She said that in Europe, women wore a lot more dresses to work, and a lot more matching suits. Benneton was designed for people who have fewer, nicer clothes, and who keep them longer. It could not compete as it was with the American market for a LOT of less expensive clothes. I don't know what it's like now... Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: jeans
Julie wrote: Remember bell bottoms? A co-worker of mine swears that they are back, but I can't find any. I was at the Chicago Gap store last week, and they certainly didn't have any there. Darn. I love bellbottoms! Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: jeans
Try some online stores. Most have real stores in most cities/malls. If you find something it will take less time if you go in armed with a style number or a photo. Dame Catriona MacDuff (Fashion instructor in a college where all the kids are rifgt on top of styles) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Gail Scott Finke Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:34 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Re: jeans Julie wrote: Remember bell bottoms? A co-worker of mine swears that they are back, but I can't find any. I was at the Chicago Gap store last week, and they certainly didn't have any there. Darn. I love bellbottoms! Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: THAT movie Elizabeth
I remember, at the time the movie came out, someone on this list posted how silly it was that Elizabeth wouldn't have known that her lover was married. (I forget his name -- sudden blank mind.) And of course, it was ridiculous. The whole movie was ridiculous. Gail Finke Ah, yes. Lord Robert Dudley (later created Earl of Leicester by Elizabeth), whose wedding to Amy Robsart Elizabeth attended. Of course she knew he was married. In a way, that was what made things better for Elizabeth; Robert could not marry her. Things changed after Amy died. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] == But I think he did secretly marry Elizabeth's cousin, Lettice Knollys. It was his last (third?) marriage. Did not make her very popular with the Queen but it didn't stop one of Lettice's children by her first marriage, Robert, Earl of Essex, from becoming one of the Queen's favorites, and later being beheaded by Elizabeth. Catherine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: THAT movie Elizabeth
Yes, he did later marry Lady Essex (Lettice was widowed) in 1578, I think. And it was a rather open secret (her father was present to make certain that Lord Leicester could not repudiate the marriage later). As long as the marriage was not in her face, she could ignore it, and did. Once the French ambassador made a public statement about the marriage, she could no longer ignore it. Joan At 02:11 PM 9/23/2005, you wrote: I remember, at the time the movie came out, someone on this list posted how silly it was that Elizabeth wouldn't have known that her lover was married. (I forget his name -- sudden blank mind.) And of course, it was ridiculous. The whole movie was ridiculous. Gail Finke Ah, yes. Lord Robert Dudley (later created Earl of Leicester by Elizabeth), whose wedding to Amy Robsart Elizabeth attended. Of course she knew he was married. In a way, that was what made things better for Elizabeth; Robert could not marry her. Things changed after Amy died. Joan Jurancich [EMAIL PROTECTED] == But I think he did secretly marry Elizabeth's cousin, Lettice Knollys. It was his last (third?) marriage. Did not make her very popular with the Queen but it didn't stop one of Lettice's children by her first marriage, Robert, Earl of Essex, from becoming one of the Queen's favorites, and later being beheaded by Elizabeth. Catherine ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: the 20th century
At 20:32 23/09/2005, you wrote: From: Suzi Clarke [EMAIL PROTECTED] winkle pickers. ??? A particular long toed style of mens shoe popular in the 50s. And women's. They are currently to be seen in shoe shops in Europe as a new fashion. I could be mistaken, what with it being a fashion thing, but I -believe- the original style was a man's shoe. The term has just carried over with the more recent conckroach stompers. Marc Sorry Marc, they may have originally been a man's style, but I was wearing them in the '50's, and they were called winkle pickers then. I am old enough to have been wearing so called fashion in the 50's. I didn't wear them for long, or often, as they hurt my feet!! (Incidentally, at about that age, I was given a pair of my Grandma's shoes, possibly from the First World War, which had long points - and I couldn't wear them either. Suzi ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: jeans
Gail, The bell bottoms were in fashion again a couple of years ago. I think last winter we saw the first season without them. But if you look at Vogue magazine for the past year a large majority of the fashions are the gypsy style from the 1970s. Penny E. Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery, www.costumegallery.com Costume Classroom, www.costumeclassroom.com Costume Research Library, www.costumelibrary.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: 20th century....
I miss Bennetton! And still own a classic pair of Bennetton wool trousers I bought over 25 years ago. As for the we comments about today's fashion and culture - I think that they are simply gross generalizations about today's youth and should be viewed as such. From the little I have read from the folks here, I don't believe any of us would fit into the mould of today's pop culture. I know I don't. In truth, I don't think a vast majority of young people fit this mould either. Just to give one example, my niece buys all vintage 20th century fashion, mostly from the 40's and 50's. Annette M Message: 10 Date: Fri, 23 Sep 2005 16:31:11 -0400 From: Gail Scott Finke [EMAIL PROTECTED] Penny wrote: We want everything fast and then throw it away in a short amount of time. We are all guilty of throw it away instead of repairing products. Mass production makes it so much cheaper to purchase a new product instead of repairing. This is not true in Europe, or at least it wasn't 10 years ago when I wrote an article about Benneton for a retail magazine. The company had opened US stores, but they failed miserably. They were trying to redo the stores, and the person in charge told me that the company had misunderstood the American market. Benneton sweaters, she told me, were considered middle-priced clothing in Europe, while here they were considered expensive (they were about $80 on sale then). The company was not geared to a wear it for a year or two and get rid of it mentality. They expected people to keep their Benneton clothes for a long time. She also explained that Benneton did not have any ladies' dress jackets, and that this was a staple of American women's work wardrobes (dress blouse, dress skirts, and dress jackets, all of them mix and match). She said that in Europe, women wore a lot more dresses to work, and a lot more matching suits. Benneton was designed for people who have fewer, nicer clothes, and who keep them longer. It could not compete as it was with the American market for a LOT of less expensive clothes. I don't know what it's like now... Gail Finke - Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 617
On Friday 23 September 2005 4:31 pm, Gail Scott Finke wrote: [snip] This is not true in Europe, or at least it wasn't 10 years ago when I wrote an article about Benneton for a retail magazine. The company had opened US stores, but they failed miserably. They were trying to redo the stores, and the person in charge told me that the company had misunderstood the American market. Benneton sweaters, she told me, were considered middle-priced clothing in Europe, while here they were considered expensive (they were about $80 on sale then). The company was not geared to a wear it for a year or two and get rid of it mentality. They expected people to keep their Benneton clothes for a long time. She also explained that Benneton did not have any ladies' dress jackets, and that this was a staple of American women's work wardrobes (dress blouse, dress skirts, and dress jackets, all of them mix and match). She said that in Europe, women wore a lot more dresses to work, and a lot more matching suits. Interesting. The Benetton store near my office in Philadelphia does have ladies' dress jackets, though that may simply be an accommodation to the American market. Benneton was designed for people who have fewer, nicer clothes, and who keep them longer. It could not compete as it was with the American market for a LOT of less expensive clothes. I don't know what it's like now... I have *not* been impressed with the quality of the merchandise I've seen in their Philadelphia store. Reasonably good construction, but most of the garments--even the sweaters--seem very thin. I bought several Benetton sweaters last winter on sale. Although they are attractive and comfortable, if I wore them as often as I wear some of my work sweaters, they'd barely last one season before wearing through at the elbows. -- Cathy Raymond [EMAIL PROTECTED] As a general rule, if end users want to smash something repeatedly with a sledgehammer, that's a sign of bad UI.--Bram Cohen ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: Re: the 20th century
I think the things the 20th century will be remembered for are : - the gradual liberalization of women's clothing (shorter skirts, less corsetry, trousers), which went hand in hand with the greater freedom of women - the liberalization of men's clothing (t-shirts aceptable for work wear as one example), - the increasing westernization of clothing worldwide (and backlashes against it) - street fashions (I'm thinking of teddy boys, mods and rockers, carnaby st, punk, new romantic, grunge, etc etc - things that start on the street and are copied by top end designers) - the reduction in home-made clothes, and the mass loss of the skills required (people like us lot are hugely outnumbered!!) Modern designs that don't have a basis in history - assorted non-western designers regularly come up with completely off the wall clothes that are more like art than clothes. Some western designers do too, (although more common among fashion students, before they graduate and get tied down to the commercialism involved in having to make a living. I'm not very interested in modern fashion, I actually do a fair amount of fashion magazine reading, that fit into, sort of, what is currently worn. I actually think this is a really interesting contradiction (and I really don't mean that in a sarcy, or snide way). I mean that it's interesting that even though someone isn't interested in modern fashion, they still feel compelled to read the mags to know what's in. Which another thing that the 20th century will probably be remembered for - as fashion becomes available and affordable to the masses, it spreads the pressure to fit in, and to be seen as part of the group by what you wear (even goths, etc, slot people into groups according to how they're dressed - I'm a Goth, of the type called Romantic.). There's nothing wrong with that, and of course it's been like that for centuries, but it's been far more common for the last few decades, because of mass media, and mass fashion. . OK - that involves a certain amount of sociology, but clothing, and in particular fashion, is so tied up with culture and society, that you can't really entirely understand one without the other (for example, would the skimpiness (or nudity) of say ancient Egyptian culture be acceptable in the US, even in places with temperatures to make that practical? and would modern people be able to continue to live the way they do swathed in acres of fabric and boning (men as well as women)? ) Re. throw away - it's absolutely true of the part of Europe I'm in - jackets for 20 quid, t-shirts for 4 quid...(shops like new look and top shop) . personally I wear things till they fall apart (or just stop wearing them and let them accumulate!!). I also have some vintage stuff, and some charity shop stuff. Debs (sorry if a bit long and incoherent - quite late at night as writing!) PS Bell bottoms are definitely back over here - or at least on their way back. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Re: h-costume Digest, Vol 4, Issue 619
PPS - I don't watch MTV either! ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
RE: [h-cost] Re: jeans
No. Like, wow, no. In? No, like, y'know they are just so like last week, -C. Julie wrote: Remember bell bottoms? A co-worker of mine swears that they are back This email was sent from Netspace Webmail: http://www.netspace.net.au ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: jeans
The ones I have are called 'flares'... Sheridan - Original Message - From: Gail Scott Finke [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, September 23, 2005 4:34 PM Subject: [h-cost] Re: jeans Julie wrote: Remember bell bottoms? A co-worker of mine swears that they are back, but I can't find any. I was at the Chicago Gap store last week, and they certainly didn't have any there. Darn. I love bellbottoms! Gail Finke ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: the 20th century
I'm not very interested in modern fashion, I actually do a fair amount of fashion magazine reading, that fit into, sort of, what is currently worn. I actually think this is a really interesting contradiction (and I really don't mean that in a sarcy, or snide way). I mean that it's interesting that even though someone isn't interested in modern fashion, they still feel compelled to read the mags to know what's in. Hey, reading _Vogue_ only takes ten minutes. It's all pictures. Anyway, I buy mostly ready-to-wear--I don't find modern clothes interesting to construct these days. What is in fashion magazines indicates what will be available to me in the stores, and whether I should even bother going to them. If I find a trend I like, I wear it. If not, I don't. There was a period of five or six years when I simply did not buy clothes because almost everything seemed to be black, charcoal gray, or a blackish dark brown. I ignore most trends entirely, in terms of what I wear. But, I have to wear something. I have to see people on business, and so forth. Wearing entire historic period outfits all day every day, or anything really, really outre, is a luxury for those who don't have careers. Fashion is not _just_ about self-image and identity, or about belonging to cultural n-groups. Which another thing that the 20th century will probably be remembered for - as fashion becomes available and affordable to the masses, it spreads the pressure to fit in, and to be seen as part of the group by what you wear I think the pressure to fit in socially has, thankfully, lessened a great deal. In an urban area, at least, people are not stuck with any one set of people. They can go find others who share their interests, they can find a new job, they can move, they can even shuck off annoying relatives to a great extent. They can change religions, careers, spouses, identities, very freely. (even goths, etc, slot people into groups according to how they're dressed - I'm a Goth, of the type called Romantic.). I was fairly amused to be classified as a Goth, by some Goths, since I've never thought of myself as one. And I don't now. Some very nice people assuring me that I was welcome in their e-group, does nothing to affect my personal identity, nor will it change my actions or clothing a jot. I'm hardly about to go hang out in a Goth club (though I might get some design tips over the net). There's nothing wrong with that, and of course it's been like that for centuries, but it's been far more common for the last few decades, because of mass media, and mass fashion. See above--I think it's less common. One thing I dislike about the costuming community is: They always want to push arguments to extremes. Or push someone else's viewpoint to an extreme, and then argue against it. Apparently, in order to say that I'm not primarily into modern fashion, I have to also say that I never, ever read a fashion magazine, or shop in department stores, or wear modern clothes. And that to avoid being called a conformist, someone so pathetically eager to fit into any group that I cry with joy because I discover a Goth group likes a good many more of the same things that I do than I ever suspected, I have to--what? Never speak to anyone? Never get costuming tips from anyone? Never interact on an e-group? Say nasty things about the Goths I just met and assure everyone I'm telling them to buzz off? On the other hand, if I said, falsely, that I go around wearing full Victorian (or other historic) outfits 24/7, even to business meetings and the supermarket, then I'd be called pathetically out of touch with modern culture. Oh, and you don't have a clue what I actually do wear, do you? You've never seen me, or, I suspect, even a photo. So, if whatever I say is going to be a platform for an excuse to put me down, I'd say that you don't have much of a platform to stand on. I suggest you get back to discussing costume in a more general way. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: the 20th century
Apparently, in order to say that I'm not primarily into modern fashion, I
have to also say that I never, ever read a fashion magazine, or shop in
department stores, or wear modern clothes.
Huh? Following fashion is often something people my daughter's age do. So
I can only assume that you're older than 21... ;)
I'm not primarily into modern fashion either, but I do believe in being
dressed; and on some occasions even well dressed. Right now I'm wearing an
old t-shirt and my everything-else-is-in-the-laundry jeans. When the
laundry is done I'll put on a nicer t-shirt and some more presentable
jeans. It's entirely coincidence that other people in the world will be
wearing t-shirts and jeans today too.
CarolynKayta Barrows
dollmaker, fibre artist, textillian
www.FunStuft.com
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Re: [h-cost] Re: Re: the 20th century
The point of Deb's message seemed to be, Oh, you're saying you're not a conformist, but see you are, because you read fashion magazines. And some people on a Goth group told you they like historic styles too, and they called you a 'Romantic Goth,' so you're a conformist to their standards. See, you're contradicting yourself. With all those quotes from my e-mails, and responses to them, that was not a general discussion of costuming trends. My point is: Everyone on this group is interested in historic costume. Many people in this group would like to wear it places other than special reenactment or costuming events. Many of them do, to a limited extent. But, to most, it's a limited extent. I'd call someone a conformist, who conforms more than normal, to whom conformity is a goal; which for me it is not. But, many people have to hold down jobs in places where full historic costume is not accepted, or paint the garage, or whatever. I don't think it's conformity, to carefully pick out things you like that will get you by in modern daily life, maybe raising a few eyebrows but not harming your career, or causing you physical discomfort, or doing other things that cause you problems. As I said, clothing is by no means entirely about self-expression. Since I don't like most modern styles (though this year is better than the last several, to my relief), and since, besides, I'm an unusual size (4'9 tall) for me this is a tricky process. It does require research into what is in fashion, careful thought about where I can get hold of the few things I like, where I can buy them in my size, and how I can combine them with each other and with vintage and antique clothes from my collection. I spent the past several years wearing combos of T-shirts and basic pants and jumpers and other simple styles (which sounds like what you're doing, Katya). I did it to avoid wearing all that black and all those miniskirts. But I got bored. I've been buying a lot of clothes recently in reaction. Yeah, I like to look well dressed too. I'd be curious to know how other people on the list are dealing with the issue of compromising; with wanting to look historic, but also wanting to look minimally acceptable and be reasonably practical in daily life. Not in the abstract, but on the level of what styles people are wearing, how they combine historic with modern, and so on. Fran Lavolta Press http://www.lavoltapress.com I'm not primarily into modern fashion either, but I do believe in being dressed; and on some occasions even well dressed. Right now I'm wearing an old t-shirt and my everything-else-is-in-the-laundry jeans. When the laundry is done I'll put on a nicer t-shirt and some more presentable jeans. It's entirely coincidence that other people in the world will be wearing t-shirts and jeans today too. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] question for the list
Hello, all -- It dawned on me that I really should ask the list if any of you happened to know my sister, April Parke, who was a professional costumer (I dont know why it didnt occur to me sooner). She got her degree at the NC School of the Arts (late 70s or early 80s, I think ), had a long association with both the Atlanta Ballet and the Alabama Shakespeare Festival, and, after a move to NY, worked with The Muppets on Ice and on Phantom of the Opera (she had other gigs, of course, but I those are the primary ones I know about). I realize its a long shot, but if any of you do happen to remember her, of course Id love to hear from you. Pax -- KP - Yahoo! for Good Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
