Re: [h-cost] Lobster back
I've learned something new from this thread; I didn't know that lobster back was an American term for British soldiers in the 18th century. In my century the idea of lobsters in a military context was associated with the hardness and segmented form of their shells, not their colour. Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back
Evidently they at least knew of it. The original post's phrase is bonnets des soldats anglais surnommés 'lobster back;'-- or, hats of the English soldiers [who are] nicknamed lobster back. I believe the discussion has come full circle! --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On Feb 13, 2009, at 5:05 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote: Kate, This was a term used in a French fashion magazine. Although maybe the French too used the term during the American Revolution. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
I will scan the image of the hat later tonight and post it so you can see. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
I immediately thought of the lobster tail helmets of the English Civil War (popularly associated with Parliamentarians but actually worn by cavalry on both sides). However, I don't think it can mean those, because it says the hat is perched over the right ear so it must be something small, and the lobster be a reference to red coats as Ruth says. All sorts of headgear were worn during the redcoat era, but I guess this could refer to some kind of forage cap from the late 19th century. Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor -- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: ruthan...@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Lobster Back??? To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Message-ID: 21945386.1234272680486.javamail.r...@elwamui-polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What is being described is not the coat but the hat, a tiny version of the hats of those English soldiers nicknamed 'lobster backs.' Those would be the redcoats, the English soldiers of the 18th-19th century notorious here during the American Revolution. --R.A. Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer -Original Message- From: Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.com Sent: Feb 10, 2009 4:18 AM To: h-costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Lobster Back??? I was looking through an August 1913 issue of a French high-fashion magazine. In the text was a description of a fashion having a lobster back. I do not read French very well. Can someone please read the following paragraph and let me know what is being referred to as having a lobster back. I have not heard the term used for fashion. Deauville, 12 Ao?t L'un de ces manteaux, qui m'a infiniment plu, parce que r?ellement celui-l? r?pondait ? un besoin et avait extr?mement de chic, ?tait en gros molleton un peu dur, comme l'?toffe des vareuses de matelots; sans manches drap?, et seulement garni de ses revers, il avant une allure inouie sur une robe de mousseline blanche ? volants, parce qu'il ?paississait la silhouette d'une facon voulue et cocasse, contrastant avec la t?te que coiffait un de ces minuscules bonnets des soldats anglais surnomm?s lobster back; comme celui-l?, il ?tait pos? sur l'oreille droite, compl?tement adh?rent au front tr?s d?gag?, et piqu? d'une aigrette paradis tr?s maigre et d?mesur?ment haute. C'?tait l? du nouveau, autant par les d?tails que par l'ensemble de cette toilette tr?s excentrique et tout ? fait r?ussie. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
The aigrette de paradis would suggest a feather plume, thus styling the hat along the lines of an officer's hat. I believe I've seen a picture of a woman wearing the little stylish hat the quotation is gushing over, and it did look like a tminiature of Cornwallis' fancy hat, perched in an elaborate coiffeure. --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:12 AM, Kate Bunting wrote: I immediately thought of the lobster tail helmets of the English Civil War (popularly associated with Parliamentarians but actually worn by cavalry on both sides). However, I don't think it can mean those, because it says the hat is perched over the right ear so it must be something small, and the lobster be a reference to red coats as Ruth says. All sorts of headgear were worn during the redcoat era, but I guess this could refer to some kind of forage cap from the late 19th century. Kate Bunting Librarian 17th century reenactor -- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:31:19 -0500 (EST) From: ruthan...@mindspring.com Subject: Re: [h-cost] Lobster Back??? To: Historical Costume h-cost...@indra.com Message-ID: 21945386.1234272680486.javamail.r...@elwamui- polski.atl.sa.earthlink.net Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 What is being described is not the coat but the hat, a tiny version of the hats of those English soldiers nicknamed 'lobster backs.' Those would be the redcoats, the English soldiers of the 18th-19th century notorious here during the American Revolution. --R.A. Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer -Original Message- From: Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.com Sent: Feb 10, 2009 4:18 AM To: h-costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Lobster Back??? I was looking through an August 1913 issue of a French high- fashion magazine. In the text was a description of a fashion having a lobster back. I do not read French very well. Can someone please read the following paragraph and let me know what is being referred to as having a lobster back. I have not heard the term used for fashion. Deauville, 12 Ao?t L'un de ces manteaux, qui m'a infiniment plu, parce que r?ellement celui-l? r?pondait ? un besoin et avait extr?mement de chic, ?tait en gros molleton un peu dur, comme l'?toffe des vareuses de matelots; sans manches drap?, et seulement garni de ses revers, il avant une allure inouie sur une robe de mousseline blanche ? volants, parce qu'il ?paississait la silhouette d'une facon voulue et cocasse, contrastant avec la t?te que coiffait un de ces minuscules bonnets des soldats anglais surnomm?s lobster back; comme celui-l?, il ?tait pos? sur l'oreille droite, compl?tement adh?rent au front tr?s d?gag?, et piqu? d'une aigrette paradis tr? s maigre et d?mesur?ment haute. C'?tait l? du nouveau, autant par les d?tails que par l'ensemble de cette toilette tr?s excentrique et tout ? fait r?ussie. The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk The policy is available here: http://www.derby.ac.uk/LIS/Email-Policy ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
Can you show me an image of the Cornwallis' hat that you are mentioning. There are hat images in the magazine and I want to see if one will match. In the magazine there is one hat image with the following description: Tricorne de velours noir avec paradis partant de derriere. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
not original poster but will these pics. help? http://tinyurl.com/alvtj6 (ebay,penny) http://www.sonofthesouth.net/revolutionary-war/revolutionary-war-overview.ht m http://www.exonumia.com/sale11/pic/9960A.JPG (coin) http://www.gentlemenoffortune.com/tricorne.htm -Original Message- Can you show me an image of the Cornwallis' hat that you are mentioning. There are hat images in the magazine and I want to see if one will match. In the magazine there is one hat image with the following description: Tricorne de velours noir avec paradis partant de derriere. Penny Ladnier ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
I wish I could find the little fashionable hat, but the drawing I saw was in a book a long time ago Anyway, here's Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne in just the type of hat. Note the feather cockade (continues outside the picture). The lady's hat was a miniature version and rode in her coiffeure. http://www.si.umich.edu/SPIES/b-portrait-burgoyne.jpg --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote: Can you show me an image of the Cornwallis' hat that you are mentioning. There are hat images in the magazine and I want to see if one will match. In the magazine there is one hat image with the following description: Tricorne de velours noir avec paradis partant de derriere. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
I know someone who makes mini tricorn hats. If anyone is interested, I'll see if I can find her info. Sharon C. -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Ruth Anne Baumgartner Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 4:58 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Lobster back??? I wish I could find the little fashionable hat, but the drawing I saw was in a book a long time ago Anyway, here's Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne in just the type of hat. Note the feather cockade (continues outside the picture). The lady's hat was a miniature version and rode in her coiffeure. http://www.si.umich.edu/SPIES/b-portrait-burgoyne.jpg --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:40 PM, Penny Ladnier wrote: Can you show me an image of the Cornwallis' hat that you are mentioning. There are hat images in the magazine and I want to see if one will match. In the magazine there is one hat image with the following description: Tricorne de velours noir avec paradis partant de derriere. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster back???
So you are looking for a french tricorn like the one at the bottom ot this site? http://www.clearwaterhats.com/revwarcatalog.htm but for a woman? -Original Message- I wish I could find the little fashionable hat, but the drawing I saw was in a book a long time ago Anyway, here's Gentleman Johnny Burgoyne in just the type of hat. Note the feather cockade (continues outside the picture). The lady's hat was a miniature version and rode in her coiffeure. http://www.si.umich.edu/SPIES/b-portrait-burgoyne.jpg --Ruth Anne Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Lobster Back???
I was looking through an August 1913 issue of a French high-fashion magazine. In the text was a description of a fashion having a lobster back. I do not read French very well. Can someone please read the following paragraph and let me know what is being referred to as having a lobster back. I have not heard the term used for fashion. Deauville, 12 Août L'un de ces manteaux, qui m'a infiniment plu, parce que réellement celui-là répondait à un besoin et avait extrêmement de chic, était en gros molleton un peu dur, comme l'étoffe des vareuses de matelots; sans manches drapé, et seulement garni de ses revers, il avant une allure inouie sur une robe de mousseline blanche à volants, parce qu'il épaississait la silhouette d'une facon voulue et cocasse, contrastant avec la tête que coiffait un de ces minuscules bonnets des soldats anglais surnommés lobster back; comme celui-là, il était posé sur l'oreille droite, complètement adhérent au front très dégagé, et piqué d'une aigrette paradis très maigre et démesurément haute. C'était là du nouveau, autant par les détails que par l'ensemble de cette toilette très excentrique et tout à fait réussie. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Lobster Back???
What is being described is not the coat but the hat, a tiny version of the hats of those English soldiers nicknamed 'lobster backs.' Those would be the redcoats, the English soldiers of the 18th-19th century notorious here during the American Revolution. --R.A. Baumgartner scholar gypsy and amateur costumer -Original Message- From: Penny Ladnier pe...@costumegallery.com Sent: Feb 10, 2009 4:18 AM To: h-costume h-cost...@indra.com Subject: [h-cost] Lobster Back??? I was looking through an August 1913 issue of a French high-fashion magazine. In the text was a description of a fashion having a lobster back. I do not read French very well. Can someone please read the following paragraph and let me know what is being referred to as having a lobster back. I have not heard the term used for fashion. Deauville, 12 Août L'un de ces manteaux, qui m'a infiniment plu, parce que réellement celui-là répondait à un besoin et avait extrêmement de chic, était en gros molleton un peu dur, comme l'étoffe des vareuses de matelots; sans manches drapé, et seulement garni de ses revers, il avant une allure inouie sur une robe de mousseline blanche à volants, parce qu'il épaississait la silhouette d'une facon voulue et cocasse, contrastant avec la tête que coiffait un de ces minuscules bonnets des soldats anglais surnommés lobster back; comme celui-là, il était posé sur l'oreille droite, complètement adhérent au front très dégagé, et piqué d'une aigrette paradis très maigre et démesurément haute. C'était là du nouveau, autant par les détails que par l'ensemble de cette toilette très excentrique et tout à fait réussie. Penny Ladnier Owner, The Costume Gallery Websites www.costumegallery.com 11 websites of fashion, textiles, costume history ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
