Re: [h-cost] Farthingale
Yes, you're taller than the pattern, IIRC. Get that engineer you live w/ to help you redraft it to your proportions. I really disagreed w/ the sizing when I was building it for rather small creature that is me. It's pretty much based on Alcega, so if you want something different than that, like a crazy 1580s superwide Elizabethan, then you're going to be redesigning anyway. --cin On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 10:43 AM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.com wrote: So I am going to make a new farthingale. I'm intending to use Margo Anderson's Underpinnings pattern. Any ideas/problems/things to watch out for before I begin? Sizing issues, etc.? Sharon C. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale
Be careful to match the notches on the sides. The pieces are easy to reverse and then you end up with an oval farthingale instead of a round one. Match the notches and you'll be fine :-) Mine was a size 2 and it came out SUPER long. I had to take off at least 12 inches, and I'm not particularly short. On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.comwrote: So I am going to make a new farthingale. I'm intending to use Margo Anderson's Underpinnings pattern. Any ideas/problems/things to watch out for before I begin? Sizing issues, etc.? Sharon C. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale
There are only notches on one side of the side pieces. I'm going to go by the way it shows in the instructions; hope it works! Sharon -Original Message- From: h-costume-boun...@indra.com [mailto:h-costume-boun...@indra.com] On Behalf Of Audrey Bergeron-Morin Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 3:31 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Farthingale Be careful to match the notches on the sides. The pieces are easy to reverse and then you end up with an oval farthingale instead of a round one. Match the notches and you'll be fine :-) Mine was a size 2 and it came out SUPER long. I had to take off at least 12 inches, and I'm not particularly short. On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.comwrote: So I am going to make a new farthingale. I'm intending to use Margo Anderson's Underpinnings pattern. Any ideas/problems/things to watch out for before I begin? Sizing issues, etc.? Sharon C. ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale
Then match this side; the other one should be fine. On Thu, May 19, 2011 at 7:28 PM, Sharon Collier sha...@collierfam.comwrote: There are only notches on one side of the side pieces. I'm going to go by the way it shows in the instructions; hope it works! Sharon ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
It could have been that the hoop stiffener was not rigid, like whalebone, but rope or cord, which is what early hoops were made of. They would fold like that when sitting. Somewhere on a site I just recently saw (which I do not remember) is a picture of a woman wearing rope hoops that fold just like the one shown in the painting. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ann Catelli Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:36 PM To: Historical Costume Subject: Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts I was interpreting her as wearing trousers, actually, though the size of the webbed picture makes any firm conclusions on her outfit premature. Ann in CT --- On Thu, 6/12/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 ** Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 8.0.100 / Virus Database: 270.3.0/1501 - Release Date: 6/13/2008 6:33 AM ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts [long]
Back to Salome again, but only briefly, as I am loaded with work and will not be able to pursue this thread further (I spent way too much time online this week). Suzanne wrote (among many other things in a very thoughtful and helpful post): I suggest that we break up the question into 2 parts: (1) WHO was Salome? In the 21st century, what does everybody know about her? In the 15th century, what did everybody know about her? (2) WHAT is she wearing in this depiction? Is this style ever seen any where else? Does it have an iconographic meaning? That last question is probably even more important than the first one. What people knew about a religious character or story in the 15th century is the starting point; the key element for our purposes (interpreting an image) is how that knowledge became translated -- and cemented -- in artwork. And iconographic conventions don't always match historical, religious, or theological understanding. Sometimes they are holdovers from earlier eras. Sometimes they are the result of confusion. (Consider the images of Catherine of Alexandria that show her with a wedding ring in the Mystic Marriage. Whoops -- that's Catherine of Siena's story. Oh well.) So, before I would feel comfortable stating what is going on in a picture like this one, I'd want to be reasonably familiar with how artists of that place and time handled that particular scene, so I could determine what elements of the scene were routinely repeated, and how this artist followed that convention, and where he chose to depart from it. I'm afraid I don't know Salome images from 15th c. Spain. And I have not made a significant study of Salome depictions overall (as I have with some other figures). However, I do know enough Salome representations from elsewhere and elsewhen in Europe to hazard some guesses on *possibilities* that may be at play in the mind of a 15th c. artist. Salome might be considered, and represented, as: -- a historical figure -- a religious figure -- a foreigner -- an evildoer (I know, she was just doing what her mother said, but she's still seen as an evildoer because she was instrumental in John the Baptist's death) -- a dancer -- a princess. Thus a medieval artist might draw on any of these themes in dressing Salome; the choice would depend in large part on what was customary for presentations of that scene in his place and time. More than one of these devices might be present at once. I have seen a c. 1300 English illumination that depicts Salome as a dancer in one panel (and this is where informal dress comes into play, as she was wearing only an undergown in that scene) and as a princess in the adjacent panel, on the same page. In early 15th c. France, the Limbourg brothers gave her an odd little tiara (which might have meant foreigner or might have meant princess; it's hard to tell), and dressed her in a currently fashionable gown but added stripes of a type that, elsewhere in the book, appear on Biblical/historical/exotic figures -- and, interestingly, on a couple of dancing girls. (The history of stripes as a real-life marker for prostitutes may be relevant here as well.) Yet I have seen many, many people look at this Salome image and assume that because the gown is of the fashionable style, the stripes must be evidence of contemporary fashionable decoration. No -- they are some sort of marker for her character. It would be quite extraordinary for Salome to be unmarked in 15th c. Spanish art; there is certainly something, maybe many things, about her dress in this scene that are there specifically to differentiate her from the contemporary fashionable woman. But without knowing what is considered normal, and what shows up in other religious art, and particularly what shows up in other Salome scenes, I can only guess at which elements are the ones you cannot trust. The hoop skirt might be one such element. Or it might not -- it might be currently fashionable dress in the Catalan style. The point is, this picture will never tell us, because Salome's depiction is deviant by definition. By the time you know enough (from a study of other artwork) to know how to interpret it, you'll have better evidence from elsewhere. Other artwork could eventually show us how to interpret Salome's dress, but Salome's dress can't tell us much in itself. This post is already longer than I intended, so I'll add just one small clarification. Suzanne wrote: Going on to question #2, since the painting in question shows everyone fully dressed, right down to their hair and jewellery, I don't see any reason to re-interpret this as an informal scene. And for reasons that I stated yesterday, I don't believe that the other [non-Salome] depictions shared by list-members need to be interpreted as informal scenes. It seems I was not clear in what I meant by informal. I was not referring to the *scenes* as informal
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
I was interpreting her as wearing trousers, actually, though the size of the webbed picture makes any firm conclusions on her outfit premature. Ann in CT --- On Thu, 6/12/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 ** Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
michaela de bruce wrote: There's a nice book on Spanish costume, entitled [strangely enough] Hispanic Costume 1480- 1530 by R. M. Anderson (1979), where the author has pulled together artwork of the period and grouped it by garment type to show the development of styles. It's a great place to get started if you're interested in this era. And it's more than just a picture book;) There are samples of texts that collaborate what is seen in art. It sounds like that's the book to have. Textual analysis adds a world of meaning. There are examples real people wearing what the saints do in the artwork and vice versa- to a degree anyway, there are probably symbols in the costume to signify these are important people from the past. I have seen hoops on figures depicting real women but they had the four panel over skirt on top. And that brings us back to the question that started this discussion: Whether it was a popular fashion to wear the hoop skirt alone, rather than an underlayer. More hoops as per the Salome image: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 Although this is another Biblical image, it does make me think that perhaps the key is not simply real vs. biblical/historical/allegorical, but also the nature of the setting and the mood the artist wanted to evoke. This appears to be a Birth of Mary image, and the scene takes place in the confines of a lady's chamber, with only other ladies in attendance. That's a circumstance where it might make sense for upper-class women to be without their formal overgowns. It may be that showing these women without overskirts reflects the artist's intent to show the intimacy of the scene. If so, the style might be real, but that doesn't mean it would be considered fashionable for women to have appeared in hoops without overskirts on the street, or at dinner, or at church. Among the handful of other images shown so far of women in hoops without overskirts was a camp follower (what some would call a laundress) with soldiers -- it was hard to make out detail, but perhaps she was deliberately portrayed as such to give the overtone of half-dress or intimacy (or lack of modesty!) I think there's very likely a layer of meaning here that viewers of the artwork would have understood -- just as people in some not-so-distant cultures would read loads of meaning in the presence and number of aprons a woman wore. Or think about styles for men of a century ago, and the difference between depicting one in a full suit, as opposed to with his jacket off and shirt-sleeves showing. In any of these contexts, artists could use the recognized implications of layers of dress to signify something about the setting or the characters. The 15th c. Flemish painters did as much with the recurring presentation of women in short-sleeved underdresses, worn without a formal overdress, with or without added sleeves to cover the chemise sleeves on the lower half of the arms. You never see this in formal portraits, but you do see the style on realistic working women, AND on upper-class women in private scenes (in fact, I can think of one in another Birth of Mary), AND also as visual code to signify certain Biblical figures (notably Mary Magdalen). Does Anderson say anything about the circumstances in which the hoop-alone style appears in artwork, or does she just refer to it as one option of wearing the clothing, without discussion of the context in which that would have been done? --Robin I couldn't help noticing in the early link with loads of images (http://jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html) that the Salome with outside hoops is from a Catalan picture, and the Salome with hoops on the underskirt is from Madrid (not Catalan). Further down there's another image of a fairly ordinary looking woman (dating from nearly 100 yrs later mind you) who also looks like she's got her hoops on the outside and is listed as being from Barcelona (ie Catalan). Catalonia has always been a pretty independent part of Spain (it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon at the time of the Salomes). Is it possible that the hoops on the outside are a Catalan fashion? Claire ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Claire Clarke wrote: I couldn't help noticing in the early link with loads of images (http://jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html) that the Salome with outside hoops is from a Catalan picture, and the Salome with hoops on the underskirt is from Madrid (not Catalan). Further down there's another image of a fairly ordinary looking woman (dating from nearly 100 yrs later mind you) who also looks like she's got her hoops on the outside and is listed as being from Barcelona (ie Catalan). Catalonia has always been a pretty independent part of Spain (it was part of the Kingdom of Aragon at the time of the Salomes). Is it possible that the hoops on the outside are a Catalan fashion? Regional variation would make a huge lot of sense, if the pattern continues to hold! The Birth of Mary at http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 mentioned earlier also appears to be Catalan, if I'm interpreting the caption correctly (but I don't read the language). Someone who has more time than I do, and who cares about this, might want to comb the rest of the examples at that site. The Catalan medieval paintings appear to be accessible by clicking the keyword link below the picture that reads Gotico Catalan Pintura. The very first link appears to be more artworks from the Barcelona Museum of Catalan Art, and there's another similar link further down (Museo Nacional de Arte de Cataluna) that might be the same or a different museum. If the Catalan identification holds, the next step would be to look at the spread of images within Catalan art to see whether there is an overskirt/underskirt distinction there too, or whether the preponderance of representations show the hoops as overskirts, which would then imply a regional style. You'd want to verify that the style crosses religious/secular boundaries in art (as opposed to still being associated with iconographic images) and whether it's peculiar to certain class levels and/or circumstances. Another useful step would be to see whether the pattern holds in other media, such as sculpture or tapestry, which would really strengthen the argument. I know, real easy for me to plot out someone else's research project. Obviously we have to deputize someone from this list to go spend a month in Barcelona art collections... --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
In a message dated 6/12/2008 8:12:53 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 ** Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
I noticed that - she also appears to have a loose-fitting over-gown (brown) with elbow-length sleeves and a slit neckline. Quite different from anyone else. Catherine In a message dated 6/12/2008 11:03:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 ** Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Low class copycat. There's always one. You get a great idea and then all the hoi polloi want to ape their betters Laurie(who is, in fact, the hoi polloi and apes her betters almost constantly) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? _ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
In a message dated 6/12/2008 11:51:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Low class copycat. * Really! Just look at her Moorish inspired headdress. **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Did y'all notice the servant in the left corner with the horizontal lines on her skirt, but no hoops? You know, when this discussion started, I looked at the pictures and thought to myself, What if that isn't hoops on the outside but a tiered skirt with banding at the hem of each tier? In that case, might not a servant be wearing a fashion similar to the upper class folks, but without the added luxury of the hoops? Perhaps a castoff dress from her mistress? -Helena ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts [long]
There've been a number of intriguing comments on this thread. To go back to the beginning, Emma asked about this picture, which she found in a discussion concerning the development of the farthingale: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/ Image:Pedro_Garcia_de_Benabarre_St_John_Retable.jpg and her question was, Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? (if that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her?) Are there any other depictions, anywhere, of hoops on the outside? I suggest that we break up the question into 2 parts: (1) WHO was Salome? In the 21st century, what does everybody know about her? In the 15th century, what did everybody know about her? (2) WHAT is she wearing in this depiction? Is this style ever seen any where else? Does it have an iconographic meaning? To start with question #1, I'd like to re-iterate the point that several people made, which is that the Bible story never says that Salome took her clothes off. It just says that the king was pleased with the girl's dance, offered to give her anything she asked for, and she ran to her mama to ask what she should say. (Since her mama hated John the Baptist, she took advantage of the situation to have the guy put to death.) That doesn't sound much like a femme fatale. We don't even know how old she was! In fact, the earliest depictions of Salome as lascivious dancer that I was able to find in a quick search of my university library catalog date to the late 19th century in France. It appears that the story of Salome appealed to a number of arty types and they all had their own re-telling of the story -- Flaubert, Mallarme, Wilde [his play, Salome, was originally written in French], etc. -- which involved some sex and obsessive behavior, and then Richard Strauss was inspired to write an opera based on Wilde's version, and finally there was a turn-of-the-20th-century entertainer in London (Maud Allan) who made her name doing a scandalous version of Salome's dance of the 7 veils which was probably inspired by the then- current literary and operatic versions. I haven't investigated the Hollywood history of Salome but I'll bet it was equally fantasy-based. So, what did people in the 15th century know about Salome? They may have known that Salome was the stepdaughter of the king; they probably knew that John the Baptist had been preaching against the morals of the court and the queen was infuriated by his comments. Without the creative license of Strauss, et al., would they have imagined Salome as a woman of questionable virtue? I don't know. The only medieval versions I've seen of this scene are set at the king's banquet. If the viewer didn't know that Salome was doing a strip-tease then the viewer would see a girl of the noble family appearing at court, IMO. Other viewpoints welcome, of course. We can all learn from each other. :-) Going on to question #2, since the painting in question shows everyone fully dressed, right down to their hair and jewellery, I don't see any reason to re-interpret this as an informal scene. And for reasons that I stated yesterday, I don't believe that the other [non-Salome] depictions shared by list-members need to be interpreted as informal scenes. The image that provoked this discussion even seems to be embellished with 3-dimensional gold chains on the principal characters, which makes me think it is very formal indeed. If you look at the images in the link that otsisto sent http://tinyurl.com/4rk3xu you'll see many that appear in Anderson's book on Hispanic Costume. That work is generally considered to be a standard in the field and I don't remember Anderson suggesting that the verdugada is an undergarment. But I'd be happy to have input from folks who've studied this period! It seems to me that this is a short-lived fashion that is worthy of further study. Most of the evidence dates from 1470-1495 -- and we're still fascinated by it centuries later! Suzanne ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Thank you, Michaela!! I haven't seen this image before. [Now, do I know anyone going to Barcelona...?] Suzanne From: michaela de bruce [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: June 10, 2008 7:44:34 PM CDT To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts message trimmed More hoops as per the Salome image: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 While the ladies are probably depicted in such a way that they would read as antique or foreign to the intended audience the hooped skirts themselves do match to the texts very well. One fashion was to have hoops contrast in colour as ell as texture. Apparently a deep red (crimson I think) and green were a favourite combination. This is from Hispanic Costume and the author comparing the colours in several text (inventories and wardrobe accounts etc.) Michaela http://glittersweet.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Robin, I think you are pushing this argument too far. There are too many women in this scene for them *all* to be attendants. What I see here is the custom of visiting the mother following delivery to congratulate her on a safe and happy outcome -- some of these ladies have just arrived, so they're not in a state of undress. In fact, I would expect them to be wearing their best on a visit of such ceremonial importance. There is another image, IIRC in a museum in France (will provide reference later), showing Isabella and her ladies in similar gowns with a sort of loose sleeveless overgown, open down the front. Such an overgown would suggest that the gown with hoops on the outside is a fashionable garment and not something that is intended to be hidden. Suzanne From: Robin Netherton [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: June 10, 2008 9:12:35 PM CDT To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts Reply-To: Historical Costume h-costume@mail.indra.com message trimmed Although this is another Biblical image, it does make me think that perhaps the key is not simply real vs. biblical/historical/ allegorical, but also the nature of the setting and the mood the artist wanted to evoke. This appears to be a Birth of Mary image, and the scene takes place in the confines of a lady's chamber, with only other ladies in attendance. That's a circumstance where it might make sense for upper-class women to be without their formal overgowns. It may be that showing these women without overskirts reflects the artist's intent to show the intimacy of the scene. If so, the style might be real, but that doesn't mean it would be considered fashionable for women to have appeared in hoops without overskirts on the street, or at dinner, or at church. trimmed again --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Suzanne wrote: Robin, I think you are pushing this argument too far. Actually, I'm trying not to make an argument at all! My point is that you can't look at images in isolation. You have to look at a lot of them -- in context, and in combination. As I've said several times, I don't know much about Spanish fashion, and I haven't looked comprehensively at this style in Spanish art. So I have been raising the questions I would want to see answered before I formed an opinion on how the garment was worn (if I were doing that research): Are there sufficient examples of the style, how do they show it being worn, in what circumstances, by what women? What patterns arise that might indicate either actual fashion, or the use of costume by artists in an unrealistic way to achieve a goal? Artists *do* use fashions in this way, particularly in the 15th century. Yet way too often, people (even authors of respected books) take a few images and describe the costume in them as routine wear by fashionable women, without considering the patterns evident in the artwork. I raised several scenarios: The hooped skirt worn alone might be fashionable wear (but the images offered so far don't include much in the way of examples that present that straightforwardly, like portraits). It might be an indication of informal or intimate circumstances, presented either realistically (e.g. on the camp follower and a few other images) or to evoke a particular implication for a narrative scene (as is often done in religious or historical paintings). It might be associated with certain historical/religious/allegorical figures. And it's possible all of these things are true, but at different times -- e.g. fashionable wear for decade or two, then passing into art and thereafter used for certain iconographical scenes or characters long after real people stopped wearing it that way. There are too many women in this scene for them *all* to be attendants. What I see here is the custom of visiting the mother following delivery to congratulate her on a safe and happy outcome -- some of these ladies have just arrived, so they're not in a state of undress. In fact, I would expect them to be wearing their best on a visit of such ceremonial importance. That is certainly one possible reading, and it's based on your own expectations and assumptions of what would happen in the event being depicted. But before you decide what's going on in the picture, it's helpful to look at other depictions of the same scene. I may be wrong, but I have guessed that this is the Birth of Mary -- not just because of the presence of haloes on certain figures, but because the layout of the picture is very much like that of other paintings from this period of the Birth of Mary by artists elsewhere in Europe. The artists followed certain patterns and conventions. And in Flanders, right about this time, I know of at least one painting that shows a sizable number of women attending Mary's birth, in a very similar layout. And at least some of them are wearing noticeably informal dress. I haven't held the two up next to each other to see differences and similarities -- I frankly don't have time or interest to dig out the other image (which could be anywhere in a long row of books), or a bunch of other Birth-of-Mary images, which is what should be done -- but just from my knowledge of the genre I can tell you the parallel is strong enough that anyone wanting to figure out what's going on in this scene, and what conventions were routinely followed among artists, should be looking at other examples and considering them. It also helps to know that there was a huge traffic of art between Burgundy and Spain in this period, so you see a lot of echoes from one place to the other. There is another image, IIRC in a museum in France (will provide reference later), showing Isabella and her ladies in similar gowns with a sort of loose sleeveless overgown, open down the front. Such an overgown would suggest that the gown with hoops on the outside is a fashionable garment and not something that is intended to be hidden. And that's exactly the sort of information-gathering I'd hope anyone would do in the process of determining who (if anyone) wore the fashion, and in what circumstances. A handful of portraits of real women wearing hoop skirts without an overlayer would balance the handful of images we've seen in which the style is potentially being used as artistic code. Slight confusion, though: If there's an overgown in that picture, then this isn't an example of the hoops worn without an overgown, is it? I don't think anyone -- certainly not me -- has suggested that the hooped skirt was meant to be hidden completely. We've already seen a wide range of examples of the hooped skirt visible as an underskirt; the elusive images are those of it being worn with nothing at all over it. If you thought I was
[h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
I was looking at the painting of Salome (top left, http://www.elizabethancostume.net/farthingale/history.html ) that is generally accepted as one of the earliest forms of farthingale/virtugarde/verdugados. I've heard the Look, first the hoops were worn on the outside, but very quickly they became an underskirt and hidden interpretation. I was thinking about the allegorical aspect of religious art. Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? (if that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her?) Are there any other depictions, anywhere, of hoops on the outside? Any thoughts? Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I was looking at the painting of Salome (top left, http://www.elizabethancostume.net/farthingale/history.html ) that is generally accepted as one of the earliest forms of farthingale/virtugarde/verdugados. I've heard the Look, first the hoops were worn on the outside, but very quickly they became an underskirt and hidden interpretation. I was thinking about the allegorical aspect of religious art. Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? Here's a color version with a larger view: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Pedro_Garcia_de_Benabarre_St_John_Retable.jpg I should note first that I've never studied the Spanish farthingale in Spanish art, and perhaps these hoops-on-the-outside are all over the place in more reliable contexts. However, if this is the only example handy, I'd want more collaboration. The first problem is, of course, that Salome is often depicted with layers of artistic clues to indicate she is (a) historical, (b) Biblical, (c) foreign, (d) a dancer, and (e) a bad woman on the lines of a courtesan. So any style that specifically shows up on Salome or other similar characters, particularly if it is very showy or bizarre, may be a deliberate artistic attempt to show something not worn by real live women of the artist's time. Second is the specific issue you note -- that Salome was traditionally supposed to have danced in not-quite-full-dress. In medieval paintings you don't generally see her naked (I can't think of even one but I wouldn't be surprised if there's an example out there somewhere). But I can think of at least one image in which she is shown without the layers one would expect of a princess. (It is a c. 1300 English manuscript illumination in which she is wearing only a simple single dress layer while she is dancing, but in the adjacent scene, when she presents the platter, she has obvious multiple layers like the other women present.) Here's an image of a Spanish Salome from perhaps slightly earlier than your example, showing Salome wearing the hooped thing as an underskirt. Go to the 12th row, left: http://jessamynscloset.com/15thgallery.html (I haven't taken the time to look at the rest of the many images on this page so perhaps there's even another one in there somewhere!) However, in the example Emma cites, Salome is not dancing, but is in the platter scene, and with two ladies. Emma goes on to ask: If that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her? It is possible that by this point, the visible hoops had become code for Salome and were picked up by other artists of the same region and used in a broader context in paintings having to do with Salome. I have seen the same thing happen with other styles in 15th c. art in Flanders, when a dress detail was used with a clear purpose by an early painter (such as ven der Weyden or van Eyck) and the later ones picked up and ran with it with less focused consideration. However, I toss that out only as a possibility to explore, for someone willing to look at a whole lot of Spanish art, and particularly at depictions of Salome and other similar religious/historical figures. It's not a judgment I can make based on two examples! It might make a very cool paper for someone, though. (Particularly if you could spend a few weeks nosing around at the zillions of unreproduced medieval images that seem to be hanging all over Spain in churches and small art collections.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
The only place I have heard/seen of Salome dancing naked (near naked) is in Hollywood pictures. Anyway, if you look at the two women behind her, they are wearing the same type of hoop skirt so I am inclined to say that she is not dressed only in her under garments. I believe that there are more examples of this type of Spanish dress somewhere. Slight trivia: The Salome mentioned in the bible is the mother of the apostles James and John. It is in the book by Joseph Flavius that mentions a daughter of Herodias. In the bible, all it said was that the daughter danced and that the head was given to her and she gave it to Herodias and not the King. The King, if it wear not for the promise would not have kill John. -Original Message- I was looking at the painting of Salome (top left, http://www.elizabethancostume.net/farthingale/history.html ) that is generally accepted as one of the earliest forms of farthingale/virtugarde/verdugados. I've heard the Look, first the hoops were worn on the outside, but very quickly they became an underskirt and hidden interpretation. I was thinking about the allegorical aspect of religious art. Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? (if that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her?) Are there any other depictions, anywhere, of hoops on the outside? Any thoughts? Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
In a message dated 6/10/2008 12:52:05 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her? It is possible that by this point, the visible hoops had become code for Salome and were picked up by other artists of the same region and used in a broader context in paintings having to do with Salome. *** You'll notice that the Royal Family, Salome, Herodias and Antipas, are all in the same beige and black brocadeor embroidery, or whatever the pattern represents. It seems logical within the context of just this painting that the hoops on the other kneeling ladies are to show they are part of Salome's train. Great painting, isn't it? I love all the hand gestures, denoting astonishment(?) **Vote for your city's best dining and nightlife. City's Best 2008. (http://citysbest.aol.com?ncid=aolacg0005000102) ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great painting, isn't it? I love all the hand gestures, denoting astonishment(?) Not to mention the bizarre non-perspective of the platter, and the dishes on the table. Talk about hand gestures (and facial expressions) -- see my absolute favorite Salome here (click and blow up to enjoy): http://www.wga.hu/frames-e.html?/html/m/massys/quentin/1/st_john3.html I spent ages standing in front of it in Antwerp. Quentin Massys may be strange, but he's never dull. You can just hear Salome saying, Did I do good, Mommy? (I disagree with the comment on the WGA page saying her face bears the stamp of evil.) Nice dress, too. --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
for more images see: Anderson, Ruth Matilda. Hispanic Costume, 1480-1530. Hispanic notes monographs. New York: Hispanic Society of America, 1979. ISBN:0875351263 9780875351261 OCLC:4858873 http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=isbn%3A0875351263 Note that the shape is different from the later cone shaped Elizabethan Spanish farthingale (that I've always rather liked. Antonio Moro (Anthony More, Antonis Mor van Dashorst) did a lovely full sized standing portrait of the Infanta Clara Eugenia that is part of the Houston Museum of Fine Arts collection. It had an impact on me years ago... Beth Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:43:20 -0500 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I was looking at the painting of Salome (top left, http://www.elizabethancostume.net/farthingale/history.html ) that is generally accepted as one of the earliest forms of farthingale/virtugarde/verdugados. I've heard the Look, first the hoops were worn on the outside, but very quickly they became an underskirt and hidden interpretation. I was thinking about the allegorical aspect of religious art. Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? (if that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her?) Are there any other depictions, anywhere, of hoops on the outside? Any thoughts? Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
http://tinyurl.com/4rk3xu I knew I would find the site with the other farthingale styles. -Original Message- Re this picture: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Pedro_Garcia_de_Benabarre_St_John_Re table.jpg The farthingale worn on the outside is seen all over the place in Spanish art, at least according to Ruth Matilda Anderson, in _Hispanic Fashion: 1480-1530_ (a book I highly recommend if you're interested in Spanish fashion!) so it's not just an oddity of the picture above. -sunny ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
otsisto wrote: http://tinyurl.com/4rk3xu I knew I would find the site with the other farthingale styles. Great collection. You can get a little information about the images by holding the cursor over them, and some show you closeups (but not all, and not all the linked ones work). The unanswered question: Of the very few that show the farthingale worn alone (without an overskirt), are any meant to show a 15th c. Spanish woman in realistic fashion? Some of the images are clearly religious, allegorical, historical, or foreign. Of course this may in part reflect the nature of the available art -- much of which was religious or allegorical. One or two of them may represent women deliberately shown in a state of semi-undress. There doesn't seem to be as much of a problem with the images that show the farthingale as a partially visible underlayer; it looks like at least some are realistic. Number of images is one thing, and of course that has to be where to start. But context is the next question. I have on occasion found hundreds of depictions of a style that I still could not in good faith argue was routinely worn in life, because in essentially every image the choice of garment had a clear rhetorical significance in context. To answer the question of whether the Spanish farthingale with visible hoops, worn as the outer layer, was ever a real fashion for real women -- and, if so, when and where and by whom -- a researcher would need to gather dozens or hundreds of images and look at them with an eye to subject matter, medium, region, and time period. There's a really good paper topic for someone who cares about this fashion! (I've done it for some other fashions, but not this one.) --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
Emma, this is definitely not underwear and it has nothing to do with Salome herself. It's more of a fad among the well-to-do, from roughly 1470 to 1500, in Spain. My guess is that the artist used this style of dress to indicate that Salome was a lady of high rank. (My Bible dictionary says that she was the king's stepdaughter; she danced for the king and his dinner guests so probably NOT naked.) There's a nice book on Spanish costume, entitled [strangely enough] Hispanic Costume 1480- 1530 by R. M. Anderson (1979), where the author has pulled together artwork of the period and grouped it by garment type to show the development of styles. It's a great place to get started if you're interested in this era. Suzanne Date: June 10, 2008 10:43:20 AM CDT To: Historical Costume [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts Reply-To: Historical Costume h-costume@mail.indra.com I was looking at the painting of Salome (top left, http:// www.elizabethancostume.net/farthingale/history.html ) that is generally accepted as one of the earliest forms of farthingale/ virtugarde/verdugados. I've heard the Look, first the hoops were worn on the outside, but very quickly they became an underskirt and hidden interpretation. I was thinking about the allegorical aspect of religious art. Salome was supposed to have danced naked before she asked for the head of John the Baptist. Is it possible that the artist depicted Salome in her underwear to hint at this nakedness, and that hoops were never actually worn on the outside? (if that's true, why are hoops also visible on the ladies behind her?) Are there any other depictions, anywhere, of hoops on the outside? Any thoughts? Emma ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
There's a nice book on Spanish costume, entitled [strangely enough] Hispanic Costume 1480- 1530 by R. M. Anderson (1979), where the author has pulled together artwork of the period and grouped it by garment type to show the development of styles. It's a great place to get started if you're interested in this era. And it's more than just a picture book;) There are samples of texts that collaborate what is seen in art. There are examples real people wearing what the saints do in the artwork and vice versa- to a degree anyway, there are probably symbols in the costume to signify these are important people from the past. I have seen hoops on figures depicting real women but they had the four panel over skirt on top. More hoops as per the Salome image: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 While the ladies are probably depicted in such a way that they would read as antique or foreign to the intended audience the hooped skirts themselves do match to the texts very well. One fashion was to have hoops contrast in colour as ell as texture. Apparently a deep red (crimson I think) and green were a favourite combination. This is from Hispanic Costume and the author comparing the colours in several text (inventories and wardrobe accounts etc.) Michaela http://glittersweet.com ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
Re: [h-cost] Farthingale thoughts
michaela de bruce wrote: There's a nice book on Spanish costume, entitled [strangely enough] Hispanic Costume 1480- 1530 by R. M. Anderson (1979), where the author has pulled together artwork of the period and grouped it by garment type to show the development of styles. It's a great place to get started if you're interested in this era. And it's more than just a picture book;) There are samples of texts that collaborate what is seen in art. It sounds like that's the book to have. Textual analysis adds a world of meaning. There are examples real people wearing what the saints do in the artwork and vice versa- to a degree anyway, there are probably symbols in the costume to signify these are important people from the past. I have seen hoops on figures depicting real women but they had the four panel over skirt on top. And that brings us back to the question that started this discussion: Whether it was a popular fashion to wear the hoop skirt alone, rather than an underlayer. More hoops as per the Salome image: http://www.oronoz.com/leefoto.php?referencia=15099 Although this is another Biblical image, it does make me think that perhaps the key is not simply real vs. biblical/historical/allegorical, but also the nature of the setting and the mood the artist wanted to evoke. This appears to be a Birth of Mary image, and the scene takes place in the confines of a lady's chamber, with only other ladies in attendance. That's a circumstance where it might make sense for upper-class women to be without their formal overgowns. It may be that showing these women without overskirts reflects the artist's intent to show the intimacy of the scene. If so, the style might be real, but that doesn't mean it would be considered fashionable for women to have appeared in hoops without overskirts on the street, or at dinner, or at church. Among the handful of other images shown so far of women in hoops without overskirts was a camp follower (what some would call a laundress) with soldiers -- it was hard to make out detail, but perhaps she was deliberately portrayed as such to give the overtone of half-dress or intimacy (or lack of modesty!) I think there's very likely a layer of meaning here that viewers of the artwork would have understood -- just as people in some not-so-distant cultures would read loads of meaning in the presence and number of aprons a woman wore. Or think about styles for men of a century ago, and the difference between depicting one in a full suit, as opposed to with his jacket off and shirt-sleeves showing. In any of these contexts, artists could use the recognized implications of layers of dress to signify something about the setting or the characters. The 15th c. Flemish painters did as much with the recurring presentation of women in short-sleeved underdresses, worn without a formal overdress, with or without added sleeves to cover the chemise sleeves on the lower half of the arms. You never see this in formal portraits, but you do see the style on realistic working women, AND on upper-class women in private scenes (in fact, I can think of one in another Birth of Mary), AND also as visual code to signify certain Biblical figures (notably Mary Magdalen). Does Anderson say anything about the circumstances in which the hoop-alone style appears in artwork, or does she just refer to it as one option of wearing the clothing, without discussion of the context in which that would have been done? --Robin ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
[h-cost] Farthingale Calculator
Sorry for the cross-posting, however, for anyone interested, I have updated the Farthingale Calculator to allow you to choose the number of boning rows. Additionally, the calculator has moved. To access it, please go to http://www.margaretroedesigns.com/tools.html. For anyone not familiar with the Farthingale Calculator, I set up a program to determine for you both the circumference of each row of boning and the length from the waist for each row for a farthingale. The length for the first row of boning will be twice the distance between any two rows, to allow the wearer to sit comfortably. Additionally, these calculations do not take in to account a bumroll, if worn under the farthingale. The program doesn't seem to work with certain versions of IE. However, for IE 7 users, there is a solution on the user end to make the program work. If you go to Tools, Internet Options, Security, Custom Level, and set Allow websites to prompt using scripted windows to enable, the program works just fine. Somehow, setting it to temporarily allow this doesn't cut it. Thanks and happy sewing! Margaret Roe Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ___ h-costume mailing list h-costume@mail.indra.com http://mail.indra.com/mailman/listinfo/h-costume
