Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Exactly, it's not like the Hackage people are doing extensive background checks of everyone, they just want something consistent. You guys don't _really_ think my name is Joe Fredette, right? I'm actually Batman. /Joe On Apr 4, 2010, at 7:58 PM, Jesper Louis Andersen wrote: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: Some people are paranoid about such things, for example because it would allow people to google-mine for things they'd rather a random HR person not reading by linking names together. In addition, the concept is rather silly, as one can just take a pseudonym without any of us knowing: Whats new: Thu Apr 1 13:37:00 UTC 2010 NicolasBourbaki algebre-1.0 History is ripe with examples of this. -- J. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Finish Gtk2hs APIs update!
Hi all, After two weeks work, i have finish update Gtk2hs APIs to Gtk+2.18.3! Gdk and Pango APIs have update to newest version. Please report any problem to gtk2hs mail-list, we can fix it as soon as we can. Below is libraries that gtk2hs support: - libraries list start --- Glib Gdk Gtk+ Pango Cairo GConf GIO Glade GnomeVFS Gstreamer OpenGL SourceView SourceView2 Mozembed SOE SvgCairo VTE Webkit libraries list end Cheers, -- Andy ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
David House wrote: An issue came up on #haskell recently with Hackage accounts requiring real names. The person in question (who didn't send this email as he's wishing to remain anonymous) applied for a Hackage account and was turned down, as he refused to offer his real name for the username. It appears to me that it's generally a good idea to adopt a pseudonym that looks like a real name anyway. The main benefit is that no one will notice that it's a pseudonym, thus avoiding such complications. Ivan Miljenovic wrote: I would wonder _why_ anyone would refuse to do so. Are they that ashamed of their own software that they wouldn't want to be associated with it, or is there some legal reason that they don't want to be associated with it? I'm sure they have their reasons, and who am I to judge them. Most likely, it's about googleability. Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: You guys don't _really_ think my name is Joe Fredette, right? I'm actually Batman. Batman, Joe, whatever your name is... I notice that the HWN has turned into the Haskell Whenever-I-can-be-bothered-getting-around-to-it News... _ -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANN: spec2code
Am 01.04.10 20:53, Greg Fitzgerald wrote: After 5 years of RD, I’m proud to announce the spec2code compiler. With spec2code, developers no longer need to acknowledge the mundane details of programming, such as memory allocation, bounds-checking, byte ordering, inheritance models or performance tuning. spec2code uses the latest techniques in compiler optimization to derive a deterministic implementation from only a high-level specification. [...] Does it scale? Absolutely, spec2code is not confined to specifications for which optimized algorithms are already known. spec2code can be used to implement operation systems, device drivers, build systems, package management tools, and even do your shirt laundry. spec2code will change your job from programmer to specification author, giving you more time for meetings, managing email, and browsing the web. Say goodbye to those dirty Perl scripts, broken C code, and ultimately, your job. spec2code is the future of programming and the beginning of the end of mankind. Looking forward to obsoleting you soon, Awesome! Given the great potential of the new spec2code compiler, the reception seems to be somewhat chilly. But maybe that's because no one likes to be obsoleted... In fact, I do have to admit that I'm secretly working on a specification of a program that halts exactly when spec2code produces a program that does not halt. It's my only hope! Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hughes' parallel annotations for fixing a space leak
Max Bolingbroke wrote: Heinrich Apfelmus wrote: As I understand it, GHC implements the technique from Sparud's paper, so this is a solved problem. This is not my understanding. As far as I know, the STG machine has a special notion of selector thunks, which represent projections from product data types. These selector thunks are evaluated by the GHC garbage collector in the manner proposed by Wadler. Ah, that's how it is. Thanks. :) Funny that this special garbage collector support isn't used when compiling with -O0, though. But it makes sense to be required to use at least -O1 when you care about resources. The Sparud solution is IMHO much cleaner, though! I agree. It still requires special support from the garbage collector, though. Namely, the gc has to short-circuit indirection nodes, otherwise the pairs will be replaced by a long chain of indirection nodes and the break example would still leak. In a sense, Sparud's idea is about expressing selector thunks in terms of indirections and mutable thunk updates. Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Apparently, Erlang does not have a static type system, since with hot code loading, this is intrinsically difficult.
Jason Dusek wrote: 2010/04/03 Casey Hawthorne cas...@istar.ca: Apparently, Erlang does not have a static type system, since with hot code loading, this is intrinsically difficult. It is doubtless hard to statically check a program that is not statically available :) Well, so long as you get the hot-loaded component all at once, you can do analysis on the static code before you try running it. Just because some code arrives after the program started running doesn't mean that code needs to be interpreted and have dynamic safety checks inserted. Now, if you don't get your code in nice cohesive chunks, but have it streaming in all willy nilly, then you'd need something like gradual typing or what Epigram does in order to do partial-analysis of what static code is available, even if it has holes in it. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
.On 5 April 2010 03:57, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: I can understand wishing to be anonymous in these kinds of situations, but in terms of submitting open source software? Unless their employer is worried about them releasing proprietary software on Hackage, I don't see the potential for embarrasment there. I think the bottom line is that this is preventing people from contributing to Hackage, and there is no good reason behind it other than Why not. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Integers v ints
Thanks for your replies. In particular to Jon for the reference to the Haskell 98 standard and the comment about language design. If anyone has further references to Haskell 98 or Erlang, I'm still interested. Regarding cost, I do see the difference in factors (Integer - Int, and computable real - Double) as being relevant, but not necessarily a show-stopper. Regarding co-semidecidable equality, I'll just note that any numerical analyst knows that you're not allowed to compare for equality in Double either. Rationals or the real algebraic closure do have decidable equality but are, as far as I know, even more costly to compute with. Thanks, Jens ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] ANN: HaskellTorrent/Combinatorrent v0.2.0
Goodbye HaskellTorrent, hello Combinatorrent! Due to the internationally acclaimed Boing!'er Shae Erisson, HaskellTorrent has been renamed into Combinatorrent. We thus present Combinatorrent v0.2, Easter eggs release. This release marks yet another milestone in getting a decent bittorrent client for Haskell. There are still some performance regressions to be eliminated, but overall it looks far better than in the v0.1.1 release. Also, the system leaks memory, albeit very slowly (or so sayeth the great heap profiler). This is the focus for the next version. We might also look into integrating the FAST extension, since it plugs a series of problematic spots in the original bittorrent protocol specification. If you want to hack on Combinatorrent, there are a lot of interesting things to do. I try, deliberately, to keep tasks around which can be used to gain foothold in the source code. Any level of skill is needed and I am happy to help a newbie if he or she gets stuck on something. The source code is at http://github.com/jlouis/combinatorrent should you want to tinker with it. Any kind of patch is welcome, be it fixes or improvements to the goat teleporter. So come help us avoiding success! Apart from numerous small optimizations and bug fixes, we can present the following big whats-new thingies (with an imaginary neon-red blinking what's new sign): NEW STUFF: * Directory Watching: Every 5 seconds, we wake up to check a directory for new torrents. A .torrent file dropped into the directory will subsequently be downloaded automatically. * Support multiple torrents at once: If given multiple torrents on the command-line the client will now download all of them. * Download rarest piece first: Use the psqueue package for getting access to a priority search queue and use it to maintain a histogram over rare pieces. Always try to get the rarest piece first. * Change all use of CML to STM: Overall, it looks like this change improved the code. There are still some need for cleanup after the bomb was thrown, but it does look like it will turn out positively. If CML put you off the track for hacking on Combinatorrent, you can now do it with STM! * Introduce RTS benchmarks: See http://jlouis.github.com/combinatorrent where we plot SVG-based sparklines for various key RTS parameters over time (works best in Opera or Chrome). A slow-changing regression has a much harder time hiding now. * Fix issue #3: A grave bug in the Piece Manager made the assertions fail when endgaming. Fix. -- J. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On Sun, Apr 04, 2010 at 10:28:26PM +0100, David House wrote: An issue came up on #haskell recently with Hackage accounts requiring real names. The person in question (who didn't send this email as he's wishing to remain anonymous) applied for a Hackage account and was turned down, as he refused to offer his real name for the username. Those of us in the conversation thought this a bit of an odd policy, and were wondering where this came from. It also emerged that a couple of other people had been held back from getting Hackage accounts because of this reason. Basically http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RealNameUserAdvantages, especially simplicity, trust and recognizability. At root, I find it convenient to run username allocation that way. I am prepared to make exceptions for privacy concerns, and have done so once, but that wasn't the case with the person you're referring to. Their real name is all over the Internet, and they wanted to use their first name only, which is easily linked to their full name. I don't recall anyone else refusing to use their real name, though a number of people have not responded to enquiries I made of them. Of course some may have been put off by the User accounts page. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On 5 April 2010 12:52, Ross Paterson r...@soi.city.ac.uk wrote: Basically http://meatballwiki.org/wiki/RealNameUserAdvantages, especially simplicity, trust and recognizability. Allow me to respond to some of these points. I find none of them particularly convincing, especially not when compared to the disadvantage that it's holding back contributors to hackage. Simplicity. It's the simplest thing. You need a name, you use your name. Disagreed. For those people who consistently use an online pseudonym, the simplest thing is to continue that consistency, rather than remember a list of exceptions who had a real names policy. Moreover it makes things more difficult for everyone else. If someone uses their pseudonym on IRC, on the wiki, on the mailing lists, on their website and so on and so forth, that's how I know them. If I want to find their hackage contributions, now I need to know their real name. Where do I find this information, in general? (I presume this addresses your recognisability point as well.) Trust. If a person doesn't use their RealName, there is a reason for it. There are many possible reasons, most of them mean problems. So the community will not trust people without RealName - except if there is a really credible explanation. This is an incredible claim. The number of online communities that mandate real names is tiny. This article seems to imply that the vast majority of online communities would be rife with mistrust. This is simply not how the internet works, or has ever worked. The rest of that article is a list of barrel-scraping excuses, e.g., * Authorship. Being recognized (and honored) as the author. (Why doesn't that apply to a pseudonym?) * Reputation. Using a RealName is the most credible way to build a combined online and RealLife identity. (Some people don't want this, for whatever reasons.) * ... and so on. I don't recall anyone else refusing to use their real name, though a number of people have not responded to enquiries I made of them. Of course some may have been put off by the User accounts page. There was at least one other person in the conversation who mentioned they'd be put off by this policy. A few others chimed in with general support, if not a specific mention of boycott. IMO this policy is hurting the community in much greater weight than any purported advantages. I'd like to see the restriction lifted. -David ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
+1 for lifting this restriction. On 4/4/10 23:28, David House wrote: An issue came up on #haskell recently with Hackage accounts requiring real names. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Unfortunately, Ivan, it's not so much the Whenever-I-can-be-bothered and more the Joe-had-4-finals-in-2-weeks-and-3-papers-to-write. HWN should be back shortly. Come Summertime, I suspect all of these delays will stop, but with a 7 class semester, something's gotta give. /Joe On Apr 5, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: You guys don't _really_ think my name is Joe Fredette, right? I'm actually Batman. Batman, Joe, whatever your name is... I notice that the HWN has turned into the Haskell Whenever-I-can-be-bothered-getting-around-to-it News... _ -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On Sun, Apr 4, 2010 at 5:28 PM, David House dmho...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, An issue came up on #haskell recently with Hackage accounts requiring real names. The person in question (who didn't send this email as he's wishing to remain anonymous) applied for a Hackage account and was turned down, as he refused to offer his real name for the username. Those of us in the conversation thought this a bit of an odd policy, and were wondering where this came from. It also emerged that a couple of other people had been held back from getting Hackage accounts because of this reason. It must've been put in place in the past year or two; I've never made any bones about using a pseudonym, and I had no trouble getting a Hackage account back when it was starting up. -- gwern ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Maybe some can help him with this. On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com wrote: Unfortunately, Ivan, it's not so much the Whenever-I-can-be-bothered and more the Joe-had-4-finals-in-2-weeks-and-3-papers-to-write. HWN should be back shortly. Come Summertime, I suspect all of these delays will stop, but with a 7 class semester, something's gotta give. /Joe On Apr 5, 2010, at 4:52 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: You guys don't _really_ think my name is Joe Fredette, right? I'm actually Batman. Batman, Joe, whatever your name is... I notice that the HWN has turned into the Haskell Whenever-I-can-be-bothered-getting-around-to-it News... _ -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: Unfortunately, Ivan, it's not so much the Whenever-I-can-be-bothered and more the Joe-had-4-finals-in-2-weeks-and-3-papers-to-write. HWN should be back shortly. Hang on, I thought your name was Batman, not Joe... -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Where are the haskell elders?
Something I've noticed is the phenomenon of Help Vampires [1] on this list. Amy Hoy: As soon as an open source project, language, or what- have-you achieves a certain notoriety—its half-life, if you will— they swarm in, seemingly draining the very life out of the community itself. She proceeds to give some tips on handling vampires. Let me excerpt from #2 Cease Enabling Behavior: * Enforce autonomy. No matter how beneficent you’re feeling, never directly answer a common question. * Foster thinking. Even if it’s not a question you see go bye fifty times a day… don’t answer it with a direct fix (unless the person is a known non-vamp, or it’s a real puzzler). * Reward self-help and helping others. Thank people who ask intelligent questions and do research first, and people who make an effort to help others. Tell them they’re a credit to the community. [1] http://slash7.com/2006/12/22/vampires/ The post was apparently written as a follow-up to [2] that meditated on why the Ruby on Rails community wasn't as good as it used to be. [2] http://slash7.com/2006/03/22/s-o-s-save-our-sanity/ Lennart Augustsson wrote: What Don said. 2010/3/29 Don Stewart d...@galois.com: gue.schmidt: Hi all, I notice that posts from the Haskell elders are pretty rare now. Only every now and then we hear from them. How come? Because there is too much noise on this list, Günther -- Don -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Where-are-the-haskell-elders--tp28076211p28140624.html Sent from the Haskell - Haskell-Cafe mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Thats what I _want_ you to think. :) On Apr 5, 2010, at 10:28 AM, Ivan Lazar Miljenovic wrote: Joe Fredette jfred...@gmail.com writes: Unfortunately, Ivan, it's not so much the Whenever-I-can-be-bothered and more the Joe-had-4-finals-in-2-weeks-and-3-papers-to-write. HWN should be back shortly. Hang on, I thought your name was Batman, not Joe... -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell on Debian
Anyone? On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.comwrote: $ ghc-pkg check outputs nothing $ ghc-pkg list unix /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix-2.4.0.0 /home/alex/.ghc/x86_64-linux-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix appears to be in the build-depends of the Library, but not in the build-depends of Executable lambdabot Adding unix to the second build-depends appears to fix the error (but now it complains that base is hidden). On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2010 11:42, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.com wrote: Main.hs:11:7: Could not find module `System.Posix.Signals': It is a member of the hidden package `unix-2.4.0.0'. Perhaps you need to add `unix' to the build-depends in your .cabal file. Interesting, because unix _is_ listed in build-depends in the .cabal file for lambdabot. Does ghc-pkg check complain about unix? Does ghc-pkg list unix say it's there? I have a feeling this has something to do with the interaction between cabal and apt... Highly unlikely unless there's an inconsistency in the packages on your system. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com -- Alex R -- Alex R ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell on Debian
Am Montag 05 April 2010 17:19:35 schrieb Alex Rozenshteyn: Anyone? base isn't listed among the build-depends of the executable, so the obvious thing is to add base to the build-depends and see what happens then (might also be necessary for some other packages). I'm not sure whether iterating that strategy will get lambdabot to build or it's too bit-rotted, so prepare to dive into the sources if you really want it to build. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.comwrote: $ ghc-pkg check outputs nothing $ ghc-pkg list unix /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix-2.4.0.0 /home/alex/.ghc/x86_64-linux-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix appears to be in the build-depends of the Library, but not in the build-depends of Executable lambdabot Adding unix to the second build-depends appears to fix the error (but now it complains that base is hidden). On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2010 11:42, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.com wrote: Main.hs:11:7: Could not find module `System.Posix.Signals': It is a member of the hidden package `unix-2.4.0.0'. Perhaps you need to add `unix' to the build-depends in your .cabal file. Interesting, because unix _is_ listed in build-depends in the .cabal file for lambdabot. Does ghc-pkg check complain about unix? Does ghc-pkg list unix say it's there? I have a feeling this has something to do with the interaction between cabal and apt... Highly unlikely unless there's an inconsistency in the packages on your system. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com -- Alex R ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell on Debian
I did try that; after adding a bunch of packages to the .cabal file and trying to build i get this: [ 1 of 81] Compiling Plugin.Dict.DictLookup ( Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs, dist/build/lambdabot/lambdabot-tmp/Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.o ) Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs:33:4: Ambiguous type variable `e' in the constraint: `GHC.Exception.Exception e' arising from a use of `handle' at Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs:33:4-42 Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) cabal: Error: some packages failed to install: lambdabot-4.2.2.1 failed during the building phase. The exception was: ExitFailure 1 On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.dewrote: Am Montag 05 April 2010 17:19:35 schrieb Alex Rozenshteyn: Anyone? base isn't listed among the build-depends of the executable, so the obvious thing is to add base to the build-depends and see what happens then (might also be necessary for some other packages). I'm not sure whether iterating that strategy will get lambdabot to build or it's too bit-rotted, so prepare to dive into the sources if you really want it to build. On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.comwrote: $ ghc-pkg check outputs nothing $ ghc-pkg list unix /var/lib/ghc-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix-2.4.0.0 /home/alex/.ghc/x86_64-linux-6.12.1/package.conf.d unix appears to be in the build-depends of the Library, but not in the build-depends of Executable lambdabot Adding unix to the second build-depends appears to fix the error (but now it complains that base is hidden). On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 1 April 2010 11:42, Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.com wrote: Main.hs:11:7: Could not find module `System.Posix.Signals': It is a member of the hidden package `unix-2.4.0.0'. Perhaps you need to add `unix' to the build-depends in your .cabal file. Interesting, because unix _is_ listed in build-depends in the .cabal file for lambdabot. Does ghc-pkg check complain about unix? Does ghc-pkg list unix say it's there? I have a feeling this has something to do with the interaction between cabal and apt... Highly unlikely unless there's an inconsistency in the packages on your system. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com -- Alex R -- Alex R ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Haskell on Debian
Am Montag 05 April 2010 17:39:29 schrieb Alex Rozenshteyn: I did try that; after adding a bunch of packages to the .cabal file and trying to build i get this: [ 1 of 81] Compiling Plugin.Dict.DictLookup ( Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs, dist/build/lambdabot/lambdabot-tmp/Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.o ) Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs:33:4: Ambiguous type variable `e' in the constraint: `GHC.Exception.Exception e' arising from a use of `handle' at Plugin/Dict/DictLookup.hs:33:4-42 Probable fix: add a type signature that fixes these type variable(s) cabal: Error: some packages failed to install: lambdabot-4.2.2.1 failed during the building phase. The exception was: ExitFailure 1 Looks like it was written for the old Control.Exception. You can a) change the import to import Control.OldException (handle) b) add a type signature in that line, e.g. handle (\(e :: SomeException) - ...) if you don't know what types of exceptions to expect ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
In addition, the concept is rather silly, as one can just take a pseudonym without any of us knowing: When I registered I was prompted to verify my identity by means of my university email (as opposed to my gmail account), which would complicate using a pseudonym. This being said, I have no problem with this restriction. In fact, trying to determine the origin of code before agreeing to distribute it sounds like sound procedure. Perhaps a good compromise would be the ability to hide the uploader on the public website (thus preventing data mining)? From a users perspective, the Uploaded by field of Hackage packages is somewhat redundant in the presence of Maintainer and Author etc. /Jonas On 5 April 2010 01:58, Jesper Louis Andersen jesper.louis.ander...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 1:49 AM, Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu wrote: Some people are paranoid about such things, for example because it would allow people to google-mine for things they'd rather a random HR person not reading by linking names together. In addition, the concept is rather silly, as one can just take a pseudonym without any of us knowing: Whats new: Thu Apr 1 13:37:00 UTC 2010 NicolasBourbaki algebre-1.0 History is ripe with examples of this. -- J. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
Well, Is the real name uniq enough? I mean if I google for Marc Weber many Haskell related posts show up. So yes, this is me - but there are also many false hits. So I for my part do no longer trust google results if I want to judge a person. It gives some hints - you can verify by asking the person. Different case: What happens if someone else chooses a pseudonym which happens to be your real name? Do those people change their real name then? I don't think you can protect against everything Marc Weber ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Where are the haskell elders?
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 3:35 PM, Kim-Ee Yeoh a.biurvo...@asuhan.com wrote: Something I've noticed is the phenomenon of Help Vampires [1] on this list. Amy Hoy: As soon as an open source project, language, or what- have-you achieves a certain notoriety—its half-life, if you will— they swarm in, seemingly draining the very life out of the community itself. Hmm. I admire her sentiments in a way - especially not blaming people for asking bad questions - but I don't like labels or stereotypes and I don't like condescension, so I would not be happy with this method being adopted in general. Especially You're a help vampire which I read as I'm going to bundle you with a bunch of other people who annoy me and make you read a patronising blog post to understand why you've just been compared to a villainous mythological creature. But I guess it's preferable to people losing patience entirely, so do whatever you have to, I suppose. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
I don't like using my real name on line unless I am 100% sure that I want my statements recorded for all time and available to anyone. Using a pseudonym allows me to be more honest in my opinions and it allows me to join groups without wondering how my membership in that group will be viewed in 20 years. Simply put, if you don't want much input from me or people that think like I do about anonymity, then, go ahead and require a real name. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
On Mon, 5 Apr 2010 13:59:50 +0100 David == David House dmho...@gmail.com wrote: David Moreover it makes things more difficult for everyone else. If David someone uses their pseudonym on IRC, on the wiki, on the mailing David lists, on their website and so on and so forth, that's how I David know them. I agree. If anyone knows me in Haskell community, they know only about 'Gour' and I use this nick in email, IRC, wikis, forums...everywhere. That's also my 'name' on every public hosting (Launchpad, Bitbucket, Github...) and I'll keep continuing using it despite Hackage's policy. (btw, I hope to contribute some Haskell code in the future.) +1 for lift. ;) Sincerely, Gour -- Gour | Hlapicina, Croatia | GPG key: F96FF5F6 signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] GSOC Haskell Project
Hello haskellers (men and women)! I had an idea about a graphical debugger for Haskell but it has proven to be not really so much useful. However, I was directed into trying to implement a backtrace-printing debugger as it is known that the community will benefit from it. With this idea in mind, I've settled down and browsed the web until I gathered enough material to design a proposal for Google Summer of Code 2010, which I present here to receive as much feedback from any of you as possible before posting it on Google. I am hereby proposing a project to add stack traces to a Haskell Debugger, either integrated with GHCi or as a stand-alone tool (or, even better with possibility to be integrated with GHC, HUGS and other interpreters and compilers). This will help novice users reason about their programs and grasp a solid foothold on the language while jumping to more and more ambitious projects without fear that their code may break and they'll be left with a cryptic error message like ``head: empty list'. Also, this will help veteran haskellers by providing the so much desired tool they asked several times for. Leaving the marketing away, following are some descriptions of the project. My idea tries to address two tickets issued on haskell.org trac. The first one of them (in a chronological order, not sorted by importance and relevance) is #960 [0]: providing a lexical call site in order to ease the debugging. Now, this is not too important for a stand alone project taking into account that HPC exists and that GHCi has debugging[5], [6]. However, the second ticket (#3693) [1] is what my proposal aims to solve. Obtaining and showing stack traces on errors is a very good thing in imperative languages and someone who have used GDB more than 20% of his programming hours knows this. However, obtaining them in Haskell (or any other lazy functional programming language) is not that easy. This is what the community suggested me to do if I want to implement a debugger and this is what I will want to do. Now, the fact that both these tickets are marked as never ending (with a bottom value as milestone) I know that they can be solved in one project. Proof of this is offered in several places, some of them gathered together into one single wiki page[2]. Following the work of Tristan Allwood, Simon Peyton Jones and Susan Eisenbach presented a paper to the Haskell Symposium from May 2009[3] in which they laid down the basis for offering stack traces in GHC. Needless to say, my GSoC project will be implemented starting from their article. It combines ideas from that paper with ideas from a presentation at Haskell Implementors Workshop 2009[4] and tries to solve the open problems suggested by Tristan and colleagues in their paper: providing stack traces for higher order functions, taking care of typeclasses and modules, taking into account constant applicative forms and/or mutually recursive functions. In order to do this, I may either expand on their work, extending the Core to Core rewriting system that they wrote to include these cases or I may write a new system which I will detail in the following phrases in a very short manner: if HPC uses a transformation just before desugarising Haskell AST into Core in order to obtain the moment when expressions are evaluated (and we know it does), then a similar transformation can be done to record each function call in a global hash-table-like data structure. When the buggy code shows up and our program fails, by simply looking into that table and following the links to the callers we may reconstruct the stack trace on the fly. I believe that this approach doesn't break the system set by Tristan while extending it in a very user-configurable way. The user may select to print only several levels of the stack, to elide multiple apparitions of the same function name (even to elide them if a certain threshold is passed) or to ask for function arguments if they can be printed and are known when the function is called (displayed as ? or _ otherwise). As for the integration with library code or code that was already debugged and proved correct, I believe that if this tool will only analyse user's code no previously working code will be broken or hampered in any way. The time complexity of this kind of debugging is the same as that of parsing the code and that of following some pointers to parents in a tree. Space complexity, however, is not that simple to compute. Yet, I believe that it can be bounded and restricted to a polynomial dependence on the source code length. As for an approximate timeline, I guess that before the first of June I can offer several proof of concept snapshots of the debugger and I will have settled on one of the mini branches that my idea has (I am refering to the fact that I can either implement a HPC like rewrite or expand on the existing one). At the end of June, however, we will be able to use the tool to obtain stack traces from simple
[Haskell-cafe] Haskell JSON requests from your blog, roll your own Try Haskell!
For those interested, http://chrisdone.com/posts/2010-04-05-haskell-json-service-tryhaskell.html I've updated the Haskell JSON service I whipped up a month ago and made it much simpler, written some sample code for how to include this in your blog or tutorials. It supports the JSONP way of making requests, so you can use it from any domain. Thanks to that, Try Haskell can now be run by anyone who has the HTML/JavaScript code and an internet connection, which is nice. Lowers the barrier a bit for people who'd like to write interactive tutorials but can't be bothered messing around with FastCGI and a web server. Don't worry about using it too much, it's on a Linode account with 200GB of bandwidth a month. AJAX requests really won't use that up. ;) I hope someone uses it on a tutorial. *Hint hint* BONUS. Hope you guys find it useful! ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: libraries [was GUI haters]
Cocoa is probably the best GUI toolkit (open-source or otherwise) that I've seen. However it ties your app to the Mac (and the iPhone). And I don't believe there is a mature Haskell bridge. Cross-platform GUI's like GTK don't look as nice but functions pretty well for what they do. Unfortunately they are written in C/C++/. Integration to Haskell is pretty nice but it seems like a bear to install on Windows or Mac and hence there are deployment issues. Until a cross-platform Haskell GUI toolkit is sufficiently mature, that doesn't leave many options and all of them require spending time coding in another language. If natively running code was a major requirement, I'd use a Java Swing app as a client connecting to Haskell server - if not I'd go with a web frontend as previously described. And Javascript [1] is really not _that_ bad! -deech [1] http://www.amazon.com/dp/0596517742 On 4/3/10, Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de wrote: Michael Vanier wrote: aditya siram wrote: Yes Haskell is not strong on the GUI end of things but have you considered turning your desktop app into a web app? I've done this for a few things and really enjoyed the process. Haskell's STM is what makes this so nice. This is a great idea! IMO this is also one of the main ways that GUI-based apps are likely to evolve into in the future. Cross-platform GUIs are a pain in the butt in _any_ language (possibly excluding full language platforms like Java/.NET, and I'll bet even those were a nightmare for the original implementors). This is a bad idea! :) As a long term Mac user, I have a strong dislike for web applications that try to be desktop applications. Sagemath is probably an example in point. Not only are the well-designed standard GUI elements thrown out of the window (the menu bar, it belongs at the top), it's also sluggish to navigate between pages, doesn't support drag drop from other applications and most importantly, doesn't play nice with local files. From the programmers point of view, I don't want to code my GUI in Javascript either, I want to do it in Haskell. Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
2010/4/5 Jonas Almström Duregård jonas.dureg...@gmail.com: This being said, I have no problem with this restriction. In fact, trying to determine the origin of code before agreeing to distribute it sounds like sound procedure. How so? What does knowing the real name of some code's author tell you that merely knowing the author's pseudonym doesn't? Particularly when the information is still unreliable, since any rigorous verification of identity is likely far more trouble than anyone would want to deal with here, and any individuals who want to misuse hackage will be the ones most motivated to deceive. Not to mention that pseudonymity is overwhelmingly the norm on the internet. In general, unless it has some reasonable justification like handling credit cards, a site demanding real names would make me highly suspicious about what they wanted to do with the information. In practice, of course, I trust hackage--given that I download and execute code from it--but deviating from standard expectations for no apparent reason is rather peculiar. For what it's worth, a quick web search indicated no such requirement for uploading packages to RubyGems or the Python cheese shop, and they seem to do okay. When I registered I was prompted to verify my identity by means of my university email (as opposed to my gmail account), which would complicate using a pseudonym. I don't have a hackage account, since I'm fairly new to Haskell and none of my projects are yet in a sufficiently complete state to warrant distribution. I'd most likely want to use my real name anyway, but being specifically required to do so is a bit off-putting, and having to verify it (A pseudonymous gmail account isn't good enough? Really?) would quite possibly irritate me enough to decide it isn't worth it. I do this for fun, after all. Is the purpose of hackage to be an open community package index that encourages general contributions, or something more limited? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: libraries [was GUI haters]
I'm building a desktop application using Haskell for the logic and Qt/C++ for the GUI (the haskell source is foreign-exported into a shared library). It's been hard to pull off, but it works quite well when you get past the compilation issues. Question to the Mac users on the list: do you find that Qt applications feel native enough on your platform ? If not, any tips ? 2010/4/3 Heinrich Apfelmus apfel...@quantentunnel.de Michael Vanier wrote: aditya siram wrote: Yes Haskell is not strong on the GUI end of things but have you considered turning your desktop app into a web app? I've done this for a few things and really enjoyed the process. Haskell's STM is what makes this so nice. This is a great idea! IMO this is also one of the main ways that GUI-based apps are likely to evolve into in the future. Cross-platform GUIs are a pain in the butt in _any_ language (possibly excluding full language platforms like Java/.NET, and I'll bet even those were a nightmare for the original implementors). This is a bad idea! :) As a long term Mac user, I have a strong dislike for web applications that try to be desktop applications. Sagemath is probably an example in point. Not only are the well-designed standard GUI elements thrown out of the window (the menu bar, it belongs at the top), it's also sluggish to navigate between pages, doesn't support drag drop from other applications and most importantly, doesn't play nice with local files. From the programmers point of view, I don't want to code my GUI in Javascript either, I want to do it in Haskell. Regards, Heinrich Apfelmus -- http://apfelmus.nfshost.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Metaprogramming in Haskell vs. Ocaml
Don Stewart wrote: I think we don't see as much metaprogramming because of other language features -- laziness, operator syntax, and type classes -- make a bunch of common designs work without needing metaprogramming. While true, there are also 2 other reasons for meta-programmers are not all over Haskell: 1. efficiency nuts are already using C++ templates and don't see why they would switch, 2. people who care about types use a typed meta-language (like metaocaml) instead of an untyped template layer atop a (fantastic!) typed language. Actually, people in the #2 camp (like me) are keeping a close eye on dependently-typed languages (like Idris [1]) where partial evaluation has been show to be particularly easy and effective. I am eagerly (!) awaiting similar results from the Agda [2] camp. I believe the world really is ready for a typed metaprogramming language. I know I am. And I would really like it if Haskell were that language. Jacques [1] http://www.cs.st-andrews.ac.uk/~eb/Idris/ [2] http://wiki.portal.chalmers.se/agda/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Break Function Using Lazy Pairs
Hi all,
For the past couple of weeks I've been trying to understand
tying-the-knot style programming in Haskell.
A couple of days ago, Heinrich Apfelmus posted the following 'break'
function as part of an unrelated thread:
break [] = ([],[])
break (x:xs) = if x == '\n' then ([],xs) else (x:ys,zs)
where (ys,zs) = Main.break xs
I've stepped through the code manually to see if I understand and I'm
hoping someone will tell me if I'm on the right track:
-- break hi\nbye =
--let f1 = (break i\nbye)
-- = let f2 = (break \nbye)
--= ([],bye)
-- ('i' : fst f2, snd f2) = ('i' : [], bye)
--('h' : fst f1, snd f1) = ('h' : 'i' : [], bye)
-- = (hi,bye)
-deech
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Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: True Random Numbers
As the maintainer of random-fu, I'd be interested to know whether you find it useful after further inspection. It does, in fact, support using /dev/random as its entropy source. I don't know what exact sort of things you're wanting to do, but very basic usage (random Int in IO from DevRandom, etc.) is along these lines: sampleFrom DevRandom (uniform 1 100) :: IO Int sampleFrom DevRandom stdNormal :: IO Double If the haddock docs are insufficient, feel free to drop me an email for clarification - I know they're a bit spotty at the moment. Minor warning: I'm getting ready to release a fairly major overhaul of the library's innards (the latest is in the darcs repo). The public interface will probably not change much, but if you happen to end up using any of the low-level interfaces (such as to define your own new random source) just be aware that those are changing soon. It's nearing release, I'm mostly just trying to knock off rough edges and trying to decide whether to take the plunge and make some interface changes (mostly whether I want to hide some data constructors in order to better enforce some invariants). -- James Cook On Apr 3, 2010, at 1940, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: Looking over the random-fu package, I think it might have what I'm looking for (and a lot that I'm not). On Sat, Apr 3, 2010 at 6:27 PM, Gökhan San g...@stillpsycho.net wrote: Alex Rozenshteyn rpglove...@gmail.com writes: The Rand monad you linked seems to be a step in the right direction for what I want, but it uses getStdGen, which appears to end up using cpu time to seed the generator. There's the random-stream package but looks like it's subject to code rot. Its RandomGen instance lacks the split functionality but I guess it could be used with MonadRandom. -- Gökhan San ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe -- Alex R ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
2010/04/05 Casey McCann syntaxgli...@gmail.com: Not to mention that pseudonymity is overwhelmingly the norm on the internet. I suppose this is the collision of two cultures. Lambda the Ultimate also encourages (but does not require) real names. I think this has to do with academic values, really -- and the Haskell community has a lot of those. You don't submit papers under names like `solidsnack'. There certainly is a significant subculture of anonymity on the internet but maybe it has spread beyond its useful limits? There are places where it is helpful (Allberry's examples above come to mind) but I don't think contributing code to Hackage (or Cheeseshop or anything else) is like that. -- Jason Dusek ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On 5 April 2010 23:52, Jason Dusek jason.du...@gmail.com wrote: There certainly is a significant subculture of anonymity on the internet but maybe it has spread beyond its useful limits? There are places where it is helpful (Allberry's examples above come to mind) but I don't think contributing code to Hackage (or Cheeseshop or anything else) is like that. You're coming at this from the wrong angle. Rather than saying, why should we allow pseudonyms? we should ask why are we restricting the freedom of users that just wish to contribute code? If I'm honest, I'm really surprised so many people have replied in favour of the restriction. I've stated an explicit way in which it's hurting the community, and the only person to say anything in the policy's defence other that well, why not? has been Ross (and I hope I dealt with the flaky arguments he linked to in my reply). (P.s., I certainly wouldn't describe the use of pseudonym anonymity a subculture. Perhaps it's not the norm in academic circles, but virtually all websites requiring a registration allow you to use whatever you like as a username. As does email. As does IRC. I can't think of many bits of the internet that don't.) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Metaprogramming in Haskell vs. Ocaml
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Jacques Carette care...@mcmaster.cawrote: Don Stewart wrote: I think we don't see as much metaprogramming because of other language features -- laziness, operator syntax, and type classes -- make a bunch of common designs work without needing metaprogramming. While true, there are also 2 other reasons for meta-programmers are not all over Haskell: 1. efficiency nuts are already using C++ templates and don't see why they would switch, 2. people who care about types use a typed meta-language (like metaocaml) instead of an untyped template layer atop a (fantastic!) typed language. Are you implying that template haskell is not typed? Jason ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 6:00 PM, David House dmho...@gmail.com wrote: You're coming at this from the wrong angle. Rather than saying, why should we allow pseudonyms? we should ask why are we restricting the freedom of users that just wish to contribute code? Exactly. I don't understand the argument about not trusting code from anonymous people. If you don't want to depend on the code, don't. If somebody wants to publish it to Hackage, fine; you still have the choice to use or not use it as you would if they published it anywhere else. If I'm honest, I'm really surprised so many people have replied in favour of the restriction. I've stated an explicit way in which it's hurting the community, and the only person to say anything in the policy's defence other that well, why not? has been Ross (and I hope I dealt with the flaky arguments he linked to in my reply). I'm extremely surprised, too, which is why I responded. (P.s., I certainly wouldn't describe the use of pseudonym anonymity a subculture. Perhaps it's not the norm in academic circles, but virtually all websites requiring a registration allow you to use whatever you like as a username. As does email. As does IRC. I can't think of many bits of the internet that don't.) Yep. On the internet, you get to be anonymous. Why don't we kick people that don't have their name in their email address or IRC nick? -- Jeff Wheeler Undergraduate, Electrical Engineering University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
David House dmho...@gmail.com writes: If I'm honest, I'm really surprised so many people have replied in favour of the restriction. I've stated an explicit way in which it's hurting the community, and the only person to say anything in the policy's defence other that well, why not? has been Ross (and I hope I dealt with the flaky arguments he linked to in my reply). And yet at times (and I would think that this is one of those times) well, why not? _can_ be a valid argument. I am frankly amazed that why should I use my real name is a valid attack on the policy. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Metaprogramming in Haskell vs. Ocaml
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Jason Dagit da...@codersbase.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 12:27 PM, Jacques Carette care...@mcmaster.ca wrote: 2. people who care about types use a typed meta-language (like metaocaml) instead of an untyped template layer atop a (fantastic!) typed language. Are you implying that template haskell is not typed? Not to speak for Jacques, but my impression is that while TH itself is typed--it's just more Haskell after all--it doesn't do much to prevent you from generating code that is not well-typed. Or even well-formed, for that matter; my initial attempts to learn how to use TH produced quite a few that's impossible! errors from GHC (I do not think that word means what it thinks it means). There's also type-level metaprogramming, as in e.g. HList, which is almost completely untyped. I have some personal library code that implements a simple meta-type system and it's a huge, horrid, painful mess for something with an expressive power no better than System F. In contrast, MetaOCaml seems to be some variety of a multi-stage system where metaprogramming blends smoothly into regular programming with a single, consistent type ensuring type safety at all points. - C. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Metaprogramming in Haskell vs. Ocaml
Jason Dagit wrote: While true, there are also 2 other reasons for meta-programmers are not all over Haskell: 1. efficiency nuts are already using C++ templates and don't see why they would switch, 2. people who care about types use a typed meta-language (like metaocaml) instead of an untyped template layer atop a (fantastic!) typed language. Are you implying that template haskell is not typed? Indeed. A template haskell meta-program is not typed at 'compile time' of the meta-program, but at 'run-time' of the splices. In other words, you can't typecheck a TH program without running it. You do get _some_ typing (because of the quotes have type Q Exp, Q [Dec] or Q Typ, but that is rather minimalistic. Compare with metaocaml where if you can compile you meta-program (i.e. code generator), then you are guaranteed that it can only ever produce valid, well-typed code. Not so with TH, where you can easily generate junk -- which GHC will promptly figure out and give you an error. But only 'late' in the process, which means that it can be fairly difficult to understand what the cause of the error really is. It's not nearly as bad as C++ templates, but it's well short of what metaocaml can do. Don't get me wrong - as a programming language, Haskell is still my favourite. It's just as a meta-programming language that it's not. [Unfortunately, I'm writing a lot of meta-programs these days !] Jacques ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Metaprogramming in Haskell vs. Ocaml
Casey McCann wrote: Not to speak for Jacques, :-) and then you followed that up with a post with which I fully agree. Jacques but my impression is that while TH itself is typed--it's just more Haskell after all--it doesn't do much to prevent you from generating code that is not well-typed. Or even well-formed, for that matter; my initial attempts to learn how to use TH produced quite a few that's impossible! errors from GHC (I do not think that word means what it thinks it means). There's also type-level metaprogramming, as in e.g. HList, which is almost completely untyped. I have some personal library code that implements a simple meta-type system and it's a huge, horrid, painful mess for something with an expressive power no better than System F. In contrast, MetaOCaml seems to be some variety of a multi-stage system where metaprogramming blends smoothly into regular programming with a single, consistent type ensuring type safety at all points. - C. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
This discussion makes me ponder whether someone like _why the lucky stiff would ever contribute Haskell packages, hehe. I can count on two hands people I know in various programming communities who have identity issues but are prolific creators. Are we missing out? Probably. But at least there is github. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On 6 April 2010 10:48, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: This discussion makes me ponder whether someone like _why the lucky stiff would ever contribute Haskell packages, hehe. I think we can do without someone who hides behind anonymity and then suddenly decides to go and delete all of their work when they've had enough. Luckily, Hackage doesn't let you do that... -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] How do I use ByteString?
Hi all, I've never found an easy way to deal with ByteStrings. I'm using the RSA library and it en- and decodes Data.ByteString.Lazy.ByteString. I initially start with Strings, ie. [Char], but there is no function to convert the 2 back and forth. There is however a function which takes [Word8] to BytesString and back. It all wouldn't be so confusing if there weren't several versions of ByteString in several modules to choose from. And a number of libraries requiring different types of ByteString. I am sure the designers of the bytestring package had good reason for this design, is there also a webpage which explains which one to use and under what circumstances? Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How do I use ByteString?
2010/4/6 Günther Schmidt gue.schm...@web.de: I initially start with Strings, ie. [Char], but there is no function to convert the 2 back and forth. There is however a function which takes [Word8] to BytesString and back. The problem is one of encoding. If you use the Char8 Bytestring variants, then pack and unpack will return Strings... as long as you're OK using only those characters that can fit in 8 bytes. utf8-string lets you do conversions to/from Bytestring if you know the String in question is UTF-8; otherwise, if you use the Text library you have a variety of encodings to choose from. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How do I use ByteString?
Look in Data.ByteString.Char8 Cheers, Greg On Apr 5, 2010, at 6:27 PM, Günther Schmidt wrote: Hi all, I've never found an easy way to deal with ByteStrings. I'm using the RSA library and it en- and decodes Data.ByteString.Lazy.ByteString. I initially start with Strings, ie. [Char], but there is no function to convert the 2 back and forth. There is however a function which takes [Word8] to BytesString and back. It all wouldn't be so confusing if there weren't several versions of ByteString in several modules to choose from. And a number of libraries requiring different types of ByteString. I am sure the designers of the bytestring package had good reason for this design, is there also a webpage which explains which one to use and under what circumstances? Günther ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
How would enforcing a 'real names' policy affect a contributor like _why (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_the_lucky_stiff)? I assume they would not join the community. I get the feeling that this discussion is somehow linked to haskell's type-system, but have no idea why... ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] How do I use ByteString?
gue.schmidt: Hi all, I've never found an easy way to deal with ByteStrings. I'm using the RSA library and it en- and decodes Data.ByteString.Lazy.ByteString. I initially start with Strings, ie. [Char], but there is no function to convert the 2 back and forth. There is however a function which takes [Word8] to BytesString and back. It all wouldn't be so confusing if there weren't several versions of ByteString in several modules to choose from. And a number of libraries requiring different types of ByteString. I am sure the designers of the bytestring package had good reason for this design, is there also a webpage which explains which one to use and under what circumstances? As a general rule you should never convert between String and bytestring. You can read bytestrings from files, or write literals using pack or the -XOverloadedStrings extension Converting between lazy and strict bytestrings is a representation change, and changes complexity - so be aware of what you're doing. You can do this via fromChunks or concat . toChunks. -- Don ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On 6 April 2010 01:52, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 April 2010 10:48, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: This discussion makes me ponder whether someone like _why the lucky stiff would ever contribute Haskell packages, hehe. I think we can do without someone who hides behind anonymity and then suddenly decides to go and delete all of their work when they've had enough. Yes, pseudonymous people tend to delete all their work, and non-anonymous people are incapable of deleting all their work. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
I hardly think you can say that _why had a negative impact on the ruby community... On Tue, Apr 6, 2010 at 9:53 AM, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: On 6 April 2010 01:52, Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 April 2010 10:48, Christopher Done chrisd...@googlemail.com wrote: This discussion makes me ponder whether someone like _why the lucky stiff would ever contribute Haskell packages, hehe. I think we can do without someone who hides behind anonymity and then suddenly decides to go and delete all of their work when they've had enough. Yes, pseudonymous people tend to delete all their work, and non-anonymous people are incapable of deleting all their work. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
Gwern Branwen gwern0 at gmail.com writes: It must've been put in place in the past year or two; I've never made any bones about using a pseudonym, and I had no trouble getting a Hackage account back when it was starting up. It may have helped that you appear to be using a pseudonym somewhat less obviously pseudonymous than Pseudonym? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
David House dmho...@gmail.com wrote: * Reputation. Using a RealName is the most credible way to build a combined online and RealLife identity. (Some people don't want this, for whatever reasons.) I agree that the restriction should be lifted. A lot of very smart people do not want their real names connected to certain projects or be found on the internet at all. And I don't agree that why not? can be a valid argument, but even if it is, the above is a valid answer to it. So all in all there is no convincing argument for the restriction, but at least two convincing arguments against. Human identity is much more than just a file descriptor or a map key, and people from academia often don't get this, because they don't have to fear using their real names. Particularly in economically illiberal countries being known as the author of a certain Haskell package can get you into trouble either at work or even with the government. It can also prevent you from getting a job. Nobody should be forced to use their real name anywhere on the internet, because unlike a bulletin board in a university, lab or school, the internet can be searched by employers easily. Greets Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://blog.ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell.org re-design
On 4/2/10 5:28 AM, Thomas Schilling wrote: How about something more colourful? http://i.imgur.com/7jCPq.png No-one replied to this, but I like it. You sacrificed some information density for a simple, engaging, low-stress page (which can still rotate in new content frequently). Anything appearing on this page will be noticed and read, which is not true of all designs. And reducing stress in learning Haskell is a good idea! (I almost expect to see a Hitch-hiker's Guide Don't Panic button[1]) [1] http://wiki.zope.org/zope2/dontpanicbutton.gif ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Haskell.org re-design
On 6 April 2010 13:24, Simon Michael si...@joyful.com wrote: On 4/2/10 5:28 AM, Thomas Schilling wrote: How about something more colourful? http://i.imgur.com/7jCPq.png No-one replied to this, but I like it. You sacrificed some information density for a simple, engaging, low-stress page (which can still rotate in new content frequently). Hmmm, I must have missed this one. However, I find it being _too_ bereft of content. Maybe still have a sub-menu of important links/info (e.g. events) rather than force users to dig for them. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
On Mon, Apr 5, 2010 at 9:18 PM, Ertugrul Soeylemez e...@ertes.de wrote: David House dmho...@gmail.com wrote: * Reputation. Using a RealName is the most credible way to build a combined online and RealLife identity. (Some people don't want this, for whatever reasons.) I agree that the restriction should be lifted. A lot of very smart people do not want their real names connected to certain projects or be found on the internet at all. And I don't agree that why not? can be a valid argument, but even if it is, the above is a valid answer to it. So all in all there is no convincing argument for the restriction, but at least two convincing arguments against. When you say convincing, you are talking about yourself being convinced, right? So this paragraph means The arguments against my position haven't convinced me, but the arguments for my position have. Human identity is much more than just a file descriptor or a map key, and people from academia often don't get this, because they don't have to fear using their real names. Particularly in economically illiberal countries being known as the author of a certain Haskell package can get you into trouble either at work or even with the government. It can also prevent you from getting a job. Nobody should be forced to use their real name anywhere on the internet, because unlike a bulletin board in a university, lab or school, the internet can be searched by employers easily. Greets Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://blog.ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Data Structures GSoC
Well, one of my most important questions has been indirectly answered. It seems like Map is still the main point of interest, and Jamie Brandon's list of remaining objectiveshttp://www.haskell.org/pipermail/haskell-cafe/2009-March/058270.html include modifying the API to work with the edison or collections API, and benchmarking. I haven't attempted a project this large before, so I'm not sure what is feasible in the allotted time. A complete Data Structures overhaul seems out of the question, but polishing up a single one seems far too sparse. Then again, the benchmarking could represent a significant chunk of work. -Nathan On Wed, Mar 31, 2010 at 11:28 AM, wren ng thornton w...@freegeek.orgwrote: Nathan Hunter wrote: Hello. I am hoping to take on the Data Structures project proposed two years ago by Don Stewart here http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/summer-of-code/ticket/1549, this summer. Before I write up my proposal to Google, I wanted to gauge the reaction of the Haskell community to this project. Particularly: -What Data Structures in the current libraries are in most dire need of improvement? -How necessary do you think a Containers Library revision is? One thing I've seen come up repeatedly is the issue of presenting a unified and general interface for Data.Map, Data.IntMap, and related things like Data.Set, bytestring-trie, pqueue, etc which intended to mimic their interface. That alone isn't big enough for a GSoC, but it would be a very nice thing to have. Every few months there's a request on the librar...@list to alter, generalize, or reunify the map interface in some way. ** Just to be clear, I do not mean coming up with a typeclass nor doing things like the generalized-trie tricks, I just mean a good old fashioned standard API. ** There are countervailing forces for making a good API. On the one hand we want functions to do whatever we need, on the other hand we want the API to be small enough to be usable/memorable. In the bytestring-trie library I attempted to resolve this conflict by offering a small set of highly efficient ueber-combinators in the internals module, a medium sized set of functions for standard use in the main module, and then pushed most everything else off into a convenience module. The containers library would do good to follow this sort of design. The Data.Map and Data.IntMap structures don't provide the necessary ueber-combinators, which has led to the proliferation of convenience functions which are more general than the standard use functions but not general enough to make the interface complete. Also, these generalized functions are implemented via code duplication rather than having a single implementation, which has been known to lead to cutpaste bugs and maintenance issues. Provided the correct ueber-combinators are chosen, there is no performance benefit for this code duplication either (so far as I've discovered with bytestring-trie). Additionally, it'd be nice if some of the guts were made available for public use (e.g., the bit-twiddling tricks of Data.IntMap so I don't have to duplicate them in bytestring-trie). Also it would be nice to develop a cohesive test and benchmarking suite, which would certainly be a large enough task for GSoC, though perhaps not fundable. I would be willing to co-mentor API and algorithm design for cleaning the cobwebs out of the containers library. I wouldn't have the time for mentoring the choice of datastructures or benchmarking however. -- Live well, ~wren ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com wrote: So all in all there is no convincing argument for the restriction, but at least two convincing arguments against. When you say convincing, you are talking about yourself being convinced, right? So this paragraph means The arguments against my position haven't convinced me, but the arguments for my position have. Yes, of course, although I think that I can speak for some others as well. Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://blog.ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
On 6 April 2010 14:28, Ertugrul Soeylemez e...@ertes.de wrote: Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com wrote: When you say convincing, you are talking about yourself being convinced, right? So this paragraph means The arguments against my position haven't convinced me, but the arguments for my position have. Yes, of course, although I think that I can speak for some others as well. So, let me summarise: 1) Hackage currently has a policy (not really a restriction if no Real World checks are done) that real names should be used. 2) Some people don't like this policy. 3) The people that don't like this policy have reasons why, which fails to convince people who have no problems with the policy. 4) The people who support the policy don't see why anyone has a problem with it. 5) No-one is convincing anyone else to their point of view, so we have a stale mate. -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
On 04/05/2010 11:32 PM, Ivan Miljenovic wrote: 4) The people who support the policy don't see why anyone has a problem with it. I have seen no logical explanation of *why* anybody supports this policy. I've only seen vague hand-wavy statements like people who use real names are more reliable. Really? Where's the proof? I bet there's a fairly large number of badly maintained projects on Hackage, and I bet it has little or no correlation with the accuracy of the maintainers' listed names. Even if it's true, what harm is there in allowing less reliable maintainers to upload packages? So we end up with a few extra packages that nobody uses. So what? - Jake ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
[Haskell-cafe] Re: Hackage accounts and real names
Ivan Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com wrote: On 6 April 2010 14:28, Ertugrul Soeylemez e...@ertes.de wrote: Luke Palmer lrpal...@gmail.com wrote: When you say convincing, you are talking about yourself being convinced, right? So this paragraph means The arguments against my position haven't convinced me, but the arguments for my position have. Yes, of course, although I think that I can speak for some others as well. So, let me summarise: 1) Hackage currently has a policy (not really a restriction if no Real World checks are done) that real names should be used. 2) Some people don't like this policy. 3) The people that don't like this policy have reasons why, which fails to convince people who have no problems with the policy. 4) The people who support the policy don't see why anyone has a problem with it. 5) No-one is convincing anyone else to their point of view, so we have a stale mate. Well, there is probably a somewhat large portion of people, who simply don't care. And most people, who do care, wouldn't be hurt by changing the policy (other than their feelings, because they couldn't enforce their ideals). However, people are actually hurt by not changing it, as others and I pointed out. The policies of a worldwide community platform can be based on certain ideals, but they shouldn't enforce them, because those don't work everywhere. They should be as friendly as possible to every potential member. In my opinion the policy should be changed to: We encourage using real names as user names, but if you have specific reasons not to do so, you can use a pseudonym. Greets, Ertugrul -- nightmare = unsafePerformIO (getWrongWife = sex) http://blog.ertes.de/ ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
This is a pretty terrible reason, but I'm going to throw it out there: I like real names because they're much more aesthetically pleasing. In my younger days, I once decided, Hey, I should get a pseudonym and I picked something fairly ridiculous, just because everyone else was doing it. I would have appreciated someone to have conked me on the head earlier and said, No, that pseudonym is stupid and made me use something else. That said, I think I'd be perfectly happy with a policy that preferred real names, but was willing to take an (obvious) pseudonym if the author insisted. Cheers, Edward ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
Re: [Haskell-cafe] Hackage accounts and real names
On 6 April 2010 15:52, Edward Z. Yang ezy...@mit.edu wrote: This is a pretty terrible reason, but I'm going to throw it out there: I like real names because they're much more aesthetically pleasing. In my younger days, I once decided, Hey, I should get a pseudonym and I picked something fairly ridiculous, just because everyone else was doing it. I would have appreciated someone to have conked me on the head earlier and said, No, that pseudonym is stupid and made me use something else. Agreed (I ridiculed my brother for basing his email address on his actual name rather than something cute; I then had to eat my words when I got my current email address). -- Ivan Lazar Miljenovic ivan.miljeno...@gmail.com IvanMiljenovic.wordpress.com ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe
