Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-24 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 23 Apr 2009, at 9:45 pm, Lennart Augustsson wrote: (+) + 1 + 1 = (+) The thing that is bad about this is that it binds the same identifier + twice in the head, to two different things. It's not really any different from (+) + 1 = (+) which doesn't have anything to do with n+k

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-24 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 24 Apr 2009, at 2:13 am, John A. De Goes wrote: Let's turn this around. You invest 4 months of your life coming out with your own experimental Haskell compiler designed to easily test new language features. Then a bunch of ungrateful wretches on Haskell Cafe demand that you stop

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-24 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 24 Apr 2009, at 3:23 am, Ross Paterson wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 05:30:52PM +1200, Richard O'Keefe wrote: Is there a simple way to download everything from Hackage? There's a link on the HackageDB introduction page. Got it. Thanks! ___

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-24 Thread S. Doaitse Swierstra
Unfortunately I think 4 man years is definitely below the minimum of the guesses I would get if I would ask the people in my group ;-} Doaitse On 23 apr 2009, at 16:13, John A. De Goes wrote: Let's turn this around. You invest 4 months of your life coming out with your own experimental

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Colin Paul Adams
Lennart == Lennart Augustsson lenn...@augustsson.net writes: Lennart Of course, n+k will be missed by Haskell obfuscators. I Lennart mean, what will we do without (+) + 1 + 1 = (+) ? I think what would be missed would you be having the opportunity to explain to me what it means. But

RE: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-23 Thread Sittampalam, Ganesh
Jon Fairbairn wrote: John A. De Goes j...@n-brain.net writes: That's absurd. You have no way to access private source code, so any decision on what features to exclude from future versions of Haskell must necessarily look at publicly accessible source code. This is all entirely beside the

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Lennart Augustsson
Let me parenthesise and rename (n + 1) +++ 1 = n This defines a function +++, first argument is a n+1 pattern, second argument is 1. In the same way, (+) + 1 + 1 = (+) defines a function +, first argument is n+1 (but using (+) as n), second argument is 1. On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 10:27 AM,

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Jon Fairbairn
Colin Paul Adams co...@colina.demon.co.uk writes: Lennart == Lennart Augustsson lenn...@augustsson.net writes: Lennart Of course, n+k will be missed by Haskell obfuscators. I Lennart mean, what will we do without (+) + 1 + 1 = (+) ? I think what would be missed would you be having

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-23 Thread Jon Fairbairn
Sittampalam, Ganesh ganesh.sittampa...@credit-suisse.com writes: Jon Fairbairn wrote: But we can remove them in future language versions. The point I was trying to make at the beginning of this subthread was that implementations should follow the definition, because having a core language

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Jon Fairbairn
John A. De Goes j...@n-brain.net writes: That's absurd. You have no way to access private source code, so any decision on what features to exclude from future versions of Haskell must necessarily look at publicly accessible source code. This is all entirely beside the point. The question

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Lennart Augustsson
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote:  - a somewhat bogus claim about how much of the library you need to   know how to use it (of COURSE you need to know about integers in   order to use an integer operation, what's so bad about that?)  - the claim that +

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread John A. De Goes
On Apr 22, 2009, at 11:30 PM, Richard O'Keefe wrote: so any decision on what features to exclude from future versions of Haskell must necessarily look at publicly accessible source code. Wrong. There is no necessarily about it. People made decisions about what to deprecate in the Fortran

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread John A. De Goes
Let's turn this around. You invest 4 months of your life coming out with your own experimental Haskell compiler designed to easily test new language features. Then a bunch of ungrateful wretches on Haskell Cafe demand that you stop distributing your compiler until you have full support

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Daniel Fischer
Am Donnerstag 23 April 2009 16:13:36 schrieb John A. De Goes: Let's turn this around. You invest 4 months of your life coming out   with your own experimental Haskell compiler designed to easily test   new language features. Then a bunch of ungrateful wretches on Haskell   Cafe demand that you

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Ross Paterson
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 05:30:52PM +1200, Richard O'Keefe wrote: Is there a simple way to download everything from Hackage? There's a link on the HackageDB introduction page. ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-23 Thread Claus Reinke
Let's turn this around. You invest 4 months of your life coming out with your own experimental Haskell compiler designed to easily test new language features. Then a bunch of ungrateful wretches on Haskell Cafe demand that you stop distributing your compiler until you have full support for

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-23 Thread Gwern Branwen
On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 12:39 PM, Claus Reinke claus.rei...@talk21.com wrote: ... joking and bikeshedding aside: - Haskell'98 is a fixed standard. Haskell'98 (revised) is a revised version of   the same standard. The discussion on what is in either is over. Unless someone wants to start and

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Achim Schneider
Daniel Fischer daniel.is.fisc...@web.de wrote: Well, if it doesn't implement the full standard, perhaps it should rather be called UVNABNQHC (Utrecht very nearly, almost but not quite Haskell compiler)? Ha! Haskell™! I said it first, and rule that... I don't care what you use the name for.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-23 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 23 Apr 2009, at 9:02 pm, Lennart Augustsson wrote: On Thu, Apr 23, 2009 at 6:30 AM, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: - a somewhat bogus claim about how much of the library you need to know how to use it (of COURSE you need to know about integers in order to use an integer

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
On 22 Apr 2009, at 13:07, Jon Fairbairn wrote: Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru writes: Well, the problem is that every implementor does choose a subset of standart to implement. That's what I'm complaining about. And that's exactly what you (or anybody else) can't do anything

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Jon Fairbairn
Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru writes: Well, the problem is that every implementor does choose a subset of standart to implement. That's what I'm complaining about. It's much worse in JavaScript - essential features working differently in Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera, and

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread david48
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 12:32 AM, Duncan Coutts duncan.cou...@worc.ox.ac.uk wrote: On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 12:31 +0200, david48 wrote: For what it's worth, It's bothered me often enough that cabal doesn't install globally by default that I had to reinstall ghc in order to solve package

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Duncan Coutts
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:21 +0200, david48 wrote: Do you know what the problem was exactly? It's possible to get problems with overlap between the user and global package dbs, but the exact same problems can also happen just within the global package db.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread david48
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Duncan Coutts duncan.cou...@worc.ox.ac.ukwrote: On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:21 +0200, david48 wrote: Lines starting with -- are comments. You need to uncomment the prefix line for it to have an effect. Man do I feel dumb now :) David.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-22 Thread Claus Reinke
Installing executable(s) in /home/david/.cabal/bin why the hell would cabal install binaries in a subdirectory of a hidden directory. Why not /home/david/bin or /home/david/local/bin ? Yes, this is clearly suboptimal but getting agreement on where to put it has not proved easy. There are users

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Achim Schneider
Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 11:36 pm, Achim Schneider wrote: Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: Some of the right questions are - how many potential whatever users would need to have whatever installed on _some_ machine they do NOT

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread John A. De Goes
That's absurd. You have no way to access private source code, so any decision on what features to exclude from future versions of Haskell must necessarily look at publicly accessible source code. The only alternative is to continuously add, and never remove, features from Haskell, even

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-22 Thread Achim Schneider
Claus Reinke claus.rei...@talk21.com wrote: [...] +1. That, and better error messages: A Verbose-Consequences flag in the config (on by default), resulting in strings like Binaries have been installed to $HOME/.cabal/bin and _not_ symlinked. $HOME/.cabal/bin is not in your $PATH: You will not

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Achim Schneider
Richard O'Keefe et all wrote: [n+k patterns] I'd like to add my two cents: Assuming that UHC's roadmap strives to be H'-compilant in the future, and n+k patterns aren't going to be in H', why bother implementing them? Also, assuming that current H98 code will be ported to H', shouldn't n+k

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Jason Dusek
2009/04/22 Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru: It's arrogant and disrespectful on the part of the implementors to say that they know better than the committee what features should be part of the language. It's arrogant and disrespectful on the part of the committee to say that they know

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
On 22 Apr 2009, at 21:19, Jason Dusek wrote: 2009/04/22 Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru: It's arrogant and disrespectful on the part of the implementors to say that they know better than the committee what features should be part of the language. It's arrogant and disrespectful on

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread David Leimbach
On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 10:19 AM, Jason Dusek jason.du...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/04/22 Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru: It's arrogant and disrespectful on the part of the implementors to say that they know better than the committee what features should be part of the language.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Duncan Coutts
On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 13:20 +0200, david48 wrote: On Wed, Apr 22, 2009 at 1:01 PM, Duncan Coutts duncan.cou...@worc.ox.ac.uk wrote: On Wed, 2009-04-22 at 12:21 +0200, david48 wrote: Lines starting with -- are comments. You need to uncomment the

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Richard O'Keefe
It's irrelevant, because I _do_ have root access to my machine, How nice to be you. Since the argument is entirely about people who _don't_, your point it? It is clear that the only sensible default is no default. Someone else has said it recently and said it much better. I think the

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 23 Apr 2009, at 2:09 am, John A. De Goes wrote: That's absurd. You have no way to access private source code, Right. so any decision on what features to exclude from future versions of Haskell must necessarily look at publicly accessible source code. Wrong. There is no necessarily

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-22 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 23 Apr 2009, at 2:24 am, Achim Schneider wrote: Richard O'Keefe et all wrote: [n+k patterns] I'd like to add my two cents: Assuming that UHC's roadmap strives to be H'-compilant in the future, and n+k patterns aren't going to be in H', why bother implementing them? Haskell' is a

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Jason Dagit
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 10:21 PM, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 5:10 pm, Jason Dagit wrote: Plus, there was a movement to ban them: And somehow this means people don't? ...see the humor. BUT, here is the real point of my reply: To end this debate as to

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Edward Middleton
Richard O'Keefe wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 2:10 pm, Edward Middleton wrote: Using non-standard installation methods makes it harder for package maintainers to package the application and suggests you haven't taken any care / don't care about making global installation safe. I'm sorry, there

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Stefan Holdermans
I'm sorry, there is no such animal as safe global installation, in the sense of download this one package and do what it says. Well I have been doing that for more then 10 years, it is one of the functions any decent package management systems is designed to do. Time to adopt another goodie

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread david48
For what it's worth, It's bothered me often enough that cabal doesn't install globally by default that I had to reinstall ghc in order to solve package issues. So I'd prefer the default to be global. But I don't care that much, I don't think arguing that point is leading anywhere.

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Achim Schneider
Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: This is good advice (/usr/local is fine though). Actually, no, it isn't. To start with, these days it's chock full of stuff which is hardly less critical for system operation than anything you'll find in /bin. More importantly, /usr/local is a

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Achim Schneider
Edward Middleton emiddle...@bebear.net wrote: ghc 6.8.3 is /usr/bin/ghc on my office Mac, but nothing in the world prevents there being some other program called ghc that would also like to be there. Only by painstaking verification of a whole bunch of applications together can one be

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Edward Middleton
Achim Schneider wrote: Edward Middleton emiddle...@bebear.net wrote: ghc 6.8.3 is /usr/bin/ghc on my office Mac, but nothing in the world prevents there being some other program called ghc that would also like to be there. Only by painstaking verification of a whole bunch of

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Achim Schneider
Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: Some of the right questions are - how many potential whatever users would need to have whatever installed on _some_ machine they do NOT have administrator access to? Irrelevant. - if people find Mac and Windows installers that show you

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Achim Schneider
Edward Middleton emiddle...@bebear.net wrote: Achim Schneider wrote: Edward Middleton emiddle...@bebear.net wrote: ghc 6.8.3 is /usr/bin/ghc on my office Mac, but nothing in the world prevents there being some other program called ghc that would also like to be there. Only by

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Xiao-Yong Jin
Achim Schneider bars...@web.de writes: Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: This is good advice (/usr/local is fine though). Actually, no, it isn't. To start with, these days it's chock full of stuff which is hardly less critical for system operation than anything you'll find in

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread S. Doaitse Swierstra
Maybe it has gone unnoticed, but the main reason we made the compiler available, was to make it possible for others to experiment with its type extensions, its Grin based back-end and to show the advantages (and disadvantages?) of generating large part of the compiler from an attribute

Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Bulat Ziganshin
Hello S., Tuesday, April 21, 2009, 5:42:15 PM, you wrote: If we had been interested in raising fierce discussions about n+k patterns or how and where cabal installs things, we could have easily achieved the same effect with much less effort. you mean that we should shoot up? :) -- Best

Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Stefan Holdermans
If we had been interested in raising fierce discussions about n+k patterns or how and where cabal installs things, we could have easily achieved the same effect with much less effort. you mean that we should shoot up? :) If the release of UHC contributes to whatever discussion regarding

Re: Re[2]: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Lennart Augustsson
I think the only way your release is going to get significant feedback is when it's ready to compile substantial existing Haskell programs unaltered. I might try UHC on some toy example for a few minuts, but if it falls over when I give it code that I've already written I'll soon give up using it.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Duncan Coutts
On Tue, 2009-04-21 at 12:31 +0200, david48 wrote: For what it's worth, It's bothered me often enough that cabal doesn't install globally by default that I had to reinstall ghc in order to solve package issues. Do you know what the problem was exactly? It's possible to get problems with overlap

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 7:39 pm, Jason Dagit wrote: Not really. Obviously some programs use the feature, but let us restrict to interesting programs that have been shared with the world and have some potential to receive maintenance. Why? You are, in effect, saying that my code has no value at

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 8:20 pm, Edward Middleton wrote: ghc 6.8.3 is /usr/bin/ghc on my office Mac, but nothing in the world prevents there being some other program called ghc that would also like to be there. Only by painstaking verification of a whole bunch of applications together can one be

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 11:36 pm, Achim Schneider wrote: Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: Some of the right questions are - how many potential whatever users would need to have whatever installed on _some_ machine they do NOT have administrator access to? Irrelevant. How van

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Alexander Dunlap
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 7:39 pm, Jason Dagit wrote: Not really.  Obviously some programs use the feature, but let us restrict to interesting programs that have been shared with the world and have some potential to receive

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-21 Thread Jason Dagit
On Tue, Apr 21, 2009 at 8:34 PM, Richard O'Keefe o...@cs.otago.ac.nz wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 7:39 pm, Jason Dagit wrote: Not really.  Obviously some programs use the feature, but let us restrict to interesting programs that have been shared with the world and have some potential to receive

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
I disagree. First of all, UHC states explicitly that some features are not supported (and probably never would be). Secondly, it seems like almost nobody uses (n+k)-patterns, and when they are used, they make the code less readable; so it's good NOT to support them, in order to make programmers

RE: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) --first release

2009-04-20 Thread Sittampalam, Ganesh
Miguel Mitrofanov wrote: Jon Fairbairn wrote on 20.04.2009 13:59: Achim Schneider bars...@web.de writes: Jon Fairbairn jon.fairba...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote: a...@cs.uu.nl writes: Utrecht Haskell Compiler -- first release, version 1.0.0

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Jon Fairbairn
Achim Schneider bars...@web.de writes: Jon Fairbairn jon.fairba...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote: a...@cs.uu.nl writes: Utrecht Haskell Compiler -- first release, version 1.0.0 The UHC team is happy to announce the first

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Jules Bean
Achim Schneider wrote: Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: This means that 'cabal install' works out of the box on every system, without needing admin/root privs (esp. important for students). ...and people who were bitten by sanity and thus never, ever touch /usr manually, only through their

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Lennart Augustsson
I agree in principle; you should really implement the full Haskell98 if you claim to be a Haskell implementation. In the particular case of n+k I don't care, since I never use them and they are slated for removal in Hakell'. -- Lennart On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 11:59 AM, Jon Fairbairn

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Bulat Ziganshin
Hello Jon, Monday, April 20, 2009, 1:59:07 PM, you wrote: It's not an implementor's place to make such decisions -- they can legitimately say this feature sucks and tell the next Haskell committee so. If they care enough about it, they can lobby or get on that next committee, but the

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Lennart Augustsson
If every implementor got to choose what subset of the standard to implement that all code would have have to written in the implemented intersection. I think that's a terrible idea. The Haskell98 standard was set so there would be a baseline that people could rely on. When I implemented Haskell

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
Well, the problem is that every implementor does choose a subset of standart to implement. It's much worse in JavaScript - essential features working differently in Internet Explorer, Firefox, Opera, and Safari, and sometimes they even differ between versions; Web programmers still manage.

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Lennart Augustsson
I don't think that other languages failing should be an excuse for Haskell to be equally bad. On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 1:23 PM, Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote: Well, the problem is that every implementor does choose a subset of standart to implement. It's much worse in

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
Me neither; there were actually two points: 1) It's not bad; at least, it's not bad for reasons you provide. 2) It would be here whether we like it or not. Lennart Augustsson wrote on 20.04.2009 15:31: I don't think that other languages failing should be an excuse for Haskell to be equally

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread David Leimbach
Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. One can refuse to use GHC libraries that use extensions as well for similar reasons. I always think twice when I see something that isn't Haskell 98 in my stack. Anything that doesn't conform completely to Haskell 98 can effectively be considered not

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Martijn van Steenbergen
David Leimbach wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. One can refuse to use GHC libraries that use extensions as well for similar reasons. I always think twice when I see something that isn't Haskell 98 in my stack. Do you not use Hugs for the same reason?

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Malcolm Wallace
Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. Do you not use Hugs for the same reason? Not to mention that GHC does not comply with the H'98 standard either: http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/latest/html/users_guide/bugs-and-infelicities.html#vs-Haskell-defn Regards, Malcolm

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread David Leimbach
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:19 AM, Martijn van Steenbergen mart...@van.steenbergen.nl wrote: David Leimbach wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. One can refuse to use GHC libraries that use extensions as well for similar reasons. I always think twice when I see something that

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread David Leimbach
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@cs.york.ac.uk wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. Do you not use Hugs for the same reason? Not to mention that GHC does not comply with the H'98 standard either:

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Sebastiaan Visser
On Apr 20, 2009, at 5:44 PM, David Leimbach wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 8:38 AM, Malcolm Wallace malcolm.wall...@cs.york.ac.uk wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. Do you not use Hugs for the same reason? Not to mention that GHC does not comply with the H'98 standard either:

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:12 pm, Miguel Mitrofanov wrote: I disagree. First of all, UHC states explicitly that some features are not supported (and probably never would be). Secondly, it seems like almost nobody uses (n+k)-patterns, How can you possibly know that? and when they are used,

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:27 pm, Jules Bean wrote: This is good advice (/usr/local is fine though). Actually, no, it isn't. To start with, these days it's chock full of stuff which is hardly less critical for system operation than anything you'll find in /bin. More importantly, it's not a place

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH
On Apr 20, 2009, at 10:46 , David Leimbach wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. One can refuse to use GHC libraries that use extensions as well for similar reasons. I always think twice when I see something that isn't Haskell 98 in my stack. So you don't use hierarchical

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Edward Middleton
Richard O'Keefe wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:27 pm, Jules Bean wrote: However, the point here is surely that the de-facto default for all other downloaded programs - standard makefile setups, automake, autoconf, perl package, python packages, graphic installers like firefox - is do to what

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Xiao-Yong Jin
Brandon S. Allbery KF8NH allb...@ece.cmu.edu writes: On Apr 20, 2009, at 10:46 , David Leimbach wrote: Just refuse to use UHC until it conforms. One can refuse to use GHC libraries that use extensions as well for similar reasons. I always think twice when I see something that

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Xiao-Yong Jin
Edward Middleton emiddle...@bebear.net writes: Richard O'Keefe wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:27 pm, Jules Bean wrote: However, the point here is surely that the de-facto default for all other downloaded programs - standard makefile setups, automake, autoconf, perl package, python packages,

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Miguel Mitrofanov
On 21 Apr 2009, at 04:59, Richard O'Keefe wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:12 pm, Miguel Mitrofanov wrote: I disagree. First of all, UHC states explicitly that some features are not supported (and probably never would be). Secondly, it seems like almost nobody uses (n+k)-patterns, How can

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Jules Bean
Richard O'Keefe wrote: However, the point here is surely that the de-facto default for all other downloaded programs - standard makefile setups, automake, autoconf, perl package, python packages, graphic installers like firefox - is do to what cabal calls a 'global' install by default. The

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 4:52 pm, Jules Bean wrote: The point I was making, which is scarcely important enough to bother explaining again, is that having the same *default* as other software is a virtue. That point is mistaken. I have no idea how many people are unable to use that default,

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Jason Dagit
On Mon, Apr 20, 2009 at 9:45 PM, Miguel Mitrofanov miguelim...@yandex.ru wrote: On 21 Apr 2009, at 04:59, Richard O'Keefe wrote: On 20 Apr 2009, at 10:12 pm, Miguel Mitrofanov wrote: I disagree. First of all, UHC states explicitly that some features are not supported (and probably never

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 2:10 pm, Edward Middleton wrote: Richard O'Keefe wrote: The assumption here seems to be that everyone owns their own machine or has a system adminstrator with large amounts of free time on their hands. Just because a lot of other people are doing something crazy doesn't

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-20 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 21 Apr 2009, at 5:10 pm, Jason Dagit wrote: Plus, there was a movement to ban them: And somehow this means people don't? BUT, here is the real point of my reply: To end this debate as to whether people really use them. We have this huge collection of source code called Hackage. I bet

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Jon Fairbairn
a...@cs.uu.nl writes: Utrecht Haskell Compiler -- first release, version 1.0.0 The UHC team is happy to announce the first public release of the Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC). UHC supports almost all Haskell98

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Benedikt Huber
Thomas Davie schrieb: On 19 Apr 2009, at 00:31, Antoine Latter wrote: ... Apparently a user install of uuagc and fgl isn't good enough. Fun to know. I've found user installs don't work at all on OS X, various people in #haskell were rather surprised to discover this, so apparently it's

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Benedikt Huber
a...@cs.uu.nl schrieb: Utrecht Haskell Compiler -- first release, version 1.0.0 The UHC team is happy to announce the first public release of the Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC). Great to see another haskell

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Achim Schneider
Don Stewart d...@galois.com wrote: This means that 'cabal install' works out of the box on every system, without needing admin/root privs (esp. important for students). ...and people who were bitten by sanity and thus never, ever touch /usr manually, only through their distribution's package

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Achim Schneider
Jon Fairbairn jon.fairba...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote: a...@cs.uu.nl writes: Utrecht Haskell Compiler -- first release, version 1.0.0 The UHC team is happy to announce the first public release of the Utrecht Haskell

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Simon Michael
Yes, it is bad that the runhaskell Setup interface has a different default. But, as Duncan said, too late to change it now. Why, especially as it seems something you would now rarely use directly ? (When would you want it ?) ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Daniel Fischer
Am Sonntag 19 April 2009 18:28:18 schrieb Simon Michael: Yes, it is bad that the runhaskell Setup interface has a different default. But, as Duncan said, too late to change it now. Why, especially as it seems something you would now rarely use directly ? (When would you want it ?) Because

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Simon Michael
I meant, why is it too late to change the Setup interface to match cabal's --user by default behaviour ? ___ Haskell-Cafe mailing list Haskell-Cafe@haskell.org http://www.haskell.org/mailman/listinfo/haskell-cafe

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Duncan Coutts
On Sun, 2009-04-19 at 11:47 -0700, Simon Michael wrote: I meant, why is it too late to change the Setup interface to match cabal's --user by default behaviour ? All the distro packages etc use the Setup.hs interface without explicitly specifying --global. Duncan

Re: [Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-19 Thread Richard O'Keefe
On 20 Apr 2009, at 12:52 am, Achim Schneider wrote: Why? Is there something about Haskell 98 that's hard to implement? Insanity. I doubt anyone is going to miss n+k patterns: They are one of my favourite features. They express briefly and neatly what would otherwise take several separate

[Haskell-cafe] Re: ANNOUNCE: Utrecht Haskell Compiler (UHC) -- first release

2009-04-18 Thread Achim Schneider
Antoine Latter aslat...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 4:38 PM, Thomas Davie tom.da...@gmail.com wrote: This looks like the same error I got ___ see bug report 1 in the bug database ___ the configure script reports that you have uuagc even if you don't ___ cabal install it,