Re: Netview
On Sat, 27 Apr 2024, at 23:07, Radoslaw Skorupka wrote: > "vel" is not Polish. > And yes, it is "aka". > BTW: WTF is aka??? :-) "Also Known As", commonly used when listing aliases used by criminals, eg "Fred Smith aka Fred Jones aka James Jones". -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Commands via Rexx (Re: REXX vs other languages WAS: Rexx numeric digits and scientific notation question
On Tue, 23 Apr 2024, at 11:25, Rony G. Flatscher wrote:
> The nice thing is that Rexx allows different variants of string
> concatenations and one is free to use what seems to be the
> "easiest", the "safest". Personally I use blank concatenations
> by default and abuttal or || only if there really should not be
> a single blank between the concatenated strings which is
> very rarely the case. Again, YMMV.
I find it usually depends on whether I'm building error messages
from fragmentary values & phrases, when something like
errmsg = funcname atline part1 part2
seems clear enough to me, and (eg) building filenames when
I'm likely to use eg
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "\" || "no.such" || dq /* test -
leafname error */
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "FAIL\" || "ok.txt" || dq /* test -
path error */
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "\" || "ok.txt" || dq /* should
work */
I usually put literal single or double quotes into vars named sq & dq, as I
find it easier not to see quotes which are part of a final value jumbled up
with those that need to be around literals ... and I don't like mixing "'" &
'"' on one line of code.
Also - as you'll see if you read this in a monospace font - I tend to space
out parts of /sets/ of related statements like the ones above so that one
can see they all do the same thing, ie I don't write
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "\" || "no.such" || dq
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "FAIL\" || "ok.txt" || dq
fyle = dq || frm || "\" || mac || "\" || "ok.txt" || dq
I almost never space-out parameters on function calls, but sometimes
do, eg the space after c2x( and those before the final closing bracket
in these lines
op = op c2x( "basic vb vbs"copies(" ", 10 + gutr) "built-in: pqr" )
op = op c2x( "html"copies(" ", 23 + gutr) "built-in: stuv" )
op = op c2x( "perl"copies(" ", 25 + gutr) "mine: perl" )
op = op c2x( "plain text" copies(" ", 15 + gutr) "mine: plaintext" )
op = op c2x( "shell scripts" copies(" ", 11 + gutr) "mine: shellscrp" )
- which is building a string of values each 'word' of which is a phrase,
in hex so that it can be passed somewhere & hacked apart easily. The
copies() calls are because I'm stretching the middle of each phrase so
that the texts (regrettably going to be displayed in a proportional
font) will still more or less be presented in sensible columns - tabs
don't work in the target application.
Sometimes I choose space concatenation or || in different parts of
a long expression because I think (with syntax colouring & vertical
alignment) one's eye is drawn to different sections of the whole
expression according to how the ||-delimited bits are syntax-
coloured.
Here, || shows up in bright yellow on a black background so
tends to draw attention to what's near it.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
--
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Re: REXX vs other languages -- EXECIO intuitiveness
On Sun, 21 Apr 2024, at 04:58, Steve Thompson wrote: > And so, with Windows I/O is different (still talking REXX), same > problem with Linux. I/O is not handled the same for simple reads > and writes from my perspective. There's an EXECIO in ooREXX now, provided by the address hostemu extension; the docs suggest it works in Windows & Unix/linux. The parameter after diskr/diskw is the whole taget filename, most likely enclosed in quotes. I've not tried it yet. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Posting issues - why do some posts have anonymous FROM-addresses?
On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, at 17:17, Tom Marchant wrote: > As I said, I use the web interface to reply, rather than send an email > to the list server. > Perhaps that is what causes the sender's address to appear that way. > For my post that you referenced, this is what I see in the web > interface: > Subject: Re: Posting issues - why do some posts have anonymous > FROM-addresses? > From: Tom Marchant Interestingly the message-id header on one of your earlier posts held Message-ID: <1272561896266461.wa.m42tomibmmainyahoo@listserv.ua.edu> but no-one can reliably use that to determine your actual address, without experimenting with punctuation... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Posting issues - why do some posts have anonymous FROM-addresses?
On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, at 17:58, Tony Harminc wrote: > On Wed, 10 Apr 2024 at 08:50, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > >> I just noticed that some posts here show the poster's own email address >> whereas others have something like >> >> 0xxx-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu > > > This is a workaround invented by Lsoft ... Indeed; I see something similar on lots of other mail lists ... except that elsewhere all the posts come with the workaround addresses. In one case it's impossible to tell who posted which piece of content unless the poster has a sensible sig, and even if they do one still has to scroll every post to the bottom to see who wrote it. Since my email address does make it into my posts, does that mean that the listserver sees my (Fastmail generic domain) address as "properly/securely" setup, or not? > Essentially things go wrong because LISTSERV is unable to sign (loosely > speaking) an email that it receives from a subscriber and wants to relay to > the list. And if a recipient's mail system rejects it for that reason, then > LISTSERV generates a random email address @ the LISTSERV address, and sends > from that address (which of course it *is* authorized to send from). Do you mean that different recipients see any particular post with a mix of apparent from-addresses, depending on whether the listserv had problem sending copies of that post to their mail provider? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Posting issues - why do some posts have anonymous FROM-addresses?
On Wed, 10 Apr 2024, at 16:30, Tom Marchant wrote: > I use the Listserv web interface exclusively to see posts and respond > to them. Do you need to login to the server to do that? If you do, it clearly knows who you are so I might have expected it to put your login email address in your posts. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Posting issues - why do some posts have anonymous FROM-addresses?
I just noticed that some posts here show the poster's own email address whereas others have something like 0xxx-dmarc-requ...@listserv.ua.edu Does the latter indicate a post made via newsgroup bit.listserv.ibm-main (if the gateway between NNTP & listserv still works?) while the former indicate "posts" made directly to the listserv by email? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: RACF, external password management
On Tue, 9 Apr 2024, at 21:29, Tom Marchant wrote: > I haven't noticed. How did you determine that they are gone? I see > these posts from you, some of which reference zMFA. I just looked in the list archive whose address is specified in the List-Archive: <http://listserv.ua.edu/cgi-bin/wa?LIST=IBM-MAIN> header in every mail. I had to register a password for the website to do that ... but it looks as if the mails are there. So... does Linda mean that they vanished from her gmail account, or something else? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Rexx numeric digits and scientific notation question
On Sat, 16 Mar 2024, at 18:38, Jeremy Nicoll wrote: > On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, at 23:35, David Crayford wrote: >> Working with REXX doesn't feel comfortable to me at all. I'm troubled >> by the fact that every function call carries a potential side effect. > > EVERY function call? Including calls of builtin functions? > > What do you mean? > > Is it a flaw in REXX implementation(s) or in language design? > > What makes the newer scripting languages unflawed? David, would you mind answering these questions? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Rexx numeric digits and scientific notation question
On Fri, 15 Mar 2024, at 23:35, David Crayford wrote: > Working with REXX doesn't feel comfortable to me at all. I'm troubled > by the fact that every function call carries a potential side effect. EVERY function call? Including calls of builtin functions? What do you mean? Is it a flaw in REXX implementation(s) or in language design? What makes the newer scripting languages unflawed? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: What am I doing wrong with BPXWUNIX sort?
On Thu, 7 Mar 2024, at 16:54, Charles Mills wrote: > Thank you! THAT is the clue I needed. I need to quote the stem names. > Passing plain Index. passes "", the value of Index., to sort. So... the difference between your code & Sri's is that you'd initialised index. = "" whereas his didn't have a default value for the stems? ... ... because his example didn't have quotes around stem names? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Opinion
On Tue, 16 Jan 2024, at 14:08, Parry, Gary (PERATON) wrote: > Also, Teams popup > notifications show in the far lower right corner of the display. That > took some getting used to.. If the popup notifications are able to be moved once they pop up, you could probably use something like AutoHotKey (which is much more versatile than its name suggests) to sit waiting for such a popup to happen, and when it does, move it to somewhere more central, or maybe to make them appear in the middle of your currently-focussed window. See: https://www.autohotkey.com/ -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 3.1 documentation
On Sun, 29 Oct 2023, at 20:51, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Wed, 18 Oct 2023 17:08:27 -0700, Tom Brennan wrote: > >>In my tests, symlinks (mklink command) needs admin auth to create. That >>would scare people I think. >> > ??? Feels like a silly restriction. Is there a reason for it? Integrity? If this is the sort of link that lets someone define a sort of shortcut with one name that points to a file with a completely different name, but doesn't clearly indicate that (in File Explorer for example) ... then it's surely something that malware would be likely to do to disguise its elements. Bear in mind that Windows already defaults to not showing file extensions in File Explorer - lunacy in my view. So it's probably to protect naive users. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: z/OS 3.1 documentation
On Thu, 19 Oct 2023, at 06:12, Brian Westerman wrote: > In fact, it works VERY well. I don't mind the dos boxes opening and > closing, they are REALLY fast and if there wern't so many of them you > probably would not notice that anything happened. In the past I've used a small utility named SilentCMD which suppresses those briefly-opening cmd.exe terminal windows. I found it especially useful for commands run from the Windows task scheduler & commands run before & after profiles run by a backup utility where the annoying flash of a briefly opened window would happen at unpredictable moments. It's available from: https://github.com/stbrenner/SilentCMD Despite the comments which suggest it's just for running .bat or .cmd files I often used it for running ooRexx execs ie my first argument was often "rexx.exe". My old notes suggest that rexxhide.exe (meant to run an exec without a console window) didn't work properly (though I don't remember precisely how, nor which version of ooRexx that was with) when the exec was started by the task scheduler, but that using SilentCMD.exe solved that. Stephan Brenner also has a basic website (from which you can find his linkedin profile) at: https://www.stephan-brenner.com There's also a forked version that apparently supports use with Powershell or Python scripts, & makes changes to logging & use of work directories, at: https://github.com/mikefirefly/SilentCMD though I've not tried that one. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!
On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, at 15:53, Bill Johnson wrote: > With a name like Bill Johnson, I would either be Scandinavian or black > most likely. In the UK, Bill Johnson would be a common enough name, and neither of those things would be likely. I think your "most likely" needs the additional qualification of "in the USA", and perhaps the likelhood of the Scandinavian option depends on how close you are to one of the areas where many Scandinavians settled? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AI will surpass human intelligence!
On Sun, 17 Sep 2023, at 16:50, Bill Johnson wrote: > Snowdon is from the old English meaning snow hill. (Snow dun) Dun ... /English/? I think not; Scots/Irish, yes, where it was a hill /fort/. Dunedin in NZ is named thus (in homage to Edinburgh) and it's a reference to the early name anglicised as "Dun Edin", the name of the hill fort that was once here, in the times of the Gododdin. Calling it "English" could start a fight here. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Assembler, was: AI expert hot new position
On Wed, 13 Sep 2023, at 22:29, Bob Bridges wrote: > I'm > thinking not only of my own experiences but also, here, an article I > read recently about the last company in the world that deals with 3½" > diskettes. It's a dead market, right? But only almost - and the one > company that sells them, and provides other services, is up to the > eyeballs in urgent requests for help from people who really need it and > can't find it anywhere else. Eg: https://simpleflying.com/boeing-747-400-floppy-disk-updates/ -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:59, Bill Johnson wrote: > Easy, the Vendors will have it set up for you to fill in some > variables. And if the variables they defined don't cover the /site/-specific needs (that the vendors know nothing about)? > On Sunday, September 3, 2023, 6:48 PM, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > > On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: >> Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to >> find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce >> better assembler programs than anyone here can write. > > How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine > has to do? > > Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor > software and work in a site-specific way? > > I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes > the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense > be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is the IBM Assembler List still alive
On Sun, 3 Sep 2023, at 23:41, Bill Johnson wrote: > Anyone considering assembler training first off will be hard pressed to > find any training classes, and in 5 years AI will be able to produce > better assembler programs than anyone here can write. How will anyone spec for the AI precisely what an assembler routine has to do? Suppose it's an exit that has to support a mix of specific vendor software and work in a site-specific way? I'm not saying it's impossible; it just strikes me that whoeever codes the spec (in some yet to be imagined formal form) will in some sense be writing the code. THEY need to understand the ins & outs... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: emacs (was: Re: Has anyone)
On Wed, 23 Aug 2023, at 21:59, David Crayford wrote: >You are never too old to learn new things. Cognitive decline happens with illness and/or age. Don't assume it won't happen to you too. There comes a point where although one could make a huge effort to learn new ways of doing old things, it's not worth it. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Converting Assembler TPUTS to ISPF
On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, at 19:39, Lionel B. Dyck wrote: > For some it is easier to install a single rexx exec than multiple rexx, > panels, msgs, skels. I suppose it also has the advantage that it encapsulates all the rexx code and ispf elements in one file, so a user would be much less likely to end up with a mix of different versions' elements in use. In production ispf applications I wrote in the 1990s I always put all the ispf parts in a single PDS. The exec that started an application then allocated it once, then ALTLIBbed it, and LIBDEFfed it several times (for ISPxLIB) via DDname. It seemed to me to be likely to be faster/more efficient than using a set of PDSs. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Converting Assembler TPUTS to ISPF
On Tue, 22 Aug 2023, at 17:44, Rupert Reynolds wrote: > Store the panel somewhere in the ISPPLIB allocation, or add your own panel > library (I forget the name of the service to do that). LIBDEF ? I never tried "being clever" but I wonder if one could dynamically write a panel definition into a temporary PDS that's been libdeffed, then use the DISPLAY command to pick up & use that panel definition? If that doesn't work (maybe ispf caches the panel PDS's directory?) then one could presumably do it with - allocate a temp pds - write a single panel definition member to it - libdef that temp pds (by ddname) - display - undo the libdef - delete the temp pds -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: DD SYSOUT=(,),DSN=?
On Wed, 9 Aug 2023, at 08:24, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Wed, 9 Aug 2023 07:17:31 +0100, Jack Zukt wrote: > >>What is it that you are trying to acomplish? >>Best wishes >> > I am trying to improve my understanding of JCL C/I processing. Ages ago (mid 1990s I think) I had a problem with temporary datasets used DISP=(,PASS) etc in multi-step started tasks which were started by automation. It was possible that two or more could go through conversion within the same second & so system-derived dsnames like (eg for &) //* 'SYSyyddd.Thhmmss.RA000.stcname.DATA' could be the same in both tasks. We fixed this by - changing all these files to proper cataloged dsnames (so we had control over their names) - having automation pass a unique parm to each STC as it was started. All the temporary datasets got deleted at the end of the task. Typical dsnames were then appsuite.STC#TEMP.uniqueid.purpose - where "STC#TEMP" helped to show that this was one of these unusual temporary files used by an STC, - 'uniqueid' was the value set by SA/390 as it created and started the task - purpose was a clue about what each such dataset was for Perhaps you could solve whatever problem you have by using proper datasets for your sysout files, then iebgener-ing them at the end of the job? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXT] Re: Cloud may be overpriced compared to on-premises systems
On Tue, 8 Aug 2023, at 14:07, Bill Johnson wrote: > I’ve driven roads in Europe. Which definition of Europe are you using? That is, are you including the uK (recently in the EU but no longer)? >Every truck is in the right most lane, unless they are passing which >isn’t common. Isn't it? Do you think the faster ones drive over the slower ones, then? > It’s nothing like the US Did anyone ever suggest it might be? I've never been in the US, but I've driven tour coaches in France albeit not all that recently. > trucking which is designed for large trucks and fast speeds. The US roads you're talking about - and the European ones - are presumably just the (UK) motorways, German autobahns etc. There's significantly smaller roads in a lot of places. Eg there are no motorways in Scotland north of Perth or thereabouts. But the supermarkets still send 44 ton trucks up there. They are not able to travel fast. > In Germany and other European Union counties, trucks with a gross > vehicle weight rating of 3.5 tonnes (7,700 pounds) or more must have a > governor that limits their speed to 90 kph (54 miles per hour). There must be some exceptions to that, maybe in older vehicles. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXT] Re: Cloud may be overpriced compared to on-premises systems
On Tue, 8 Aug 2023, at 01:56, Bill Johnson wrote: > In Europe all the trucks go the same speed. Rubbish. Age of truck and how heavy its load is are certainly factors. An unloaded truck, is a lot more susceptible to high winds so might be driven slower in those conditions; trucks with no load with curtain- sides often have their curtains open in high winds to significantly reduce wind effects. But that's impossible if there's a partial load or nowhere safe for the driver to open (and tie back) the curtains. > The trucks all have governors. No they don't. Some do. Even so it sets a maximum speed not the actual speed. > They are also all in the right lane. By "right" do you mean "correct"? Or do you mean the slowest lane? In any case trucks are permitted to be in the next fastest lane while overtaking a slower truck. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 18:25, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Yes, but is every Scots dialect intelligible to every native Scots > speaker, I doubt it; the dialects spoken by people in Shetland and Orkney (the latter right now considering a return to Norwegian rule!) are substantially different from that spoken in lowland Scotland. See: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-66090102 Also, very many people who would consider themselves Scots, but not speakers of Scots, speak mainly English with greater or lesser amounts of Scots vocab intermixed. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: OT: RE: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:27, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Aggie derives from "agricultural school"; I assure you that the English > of, e.g.,Australia, New Zealand, UK, is just as opaque to us. > > Does Scotland have English terms that are understood in some regions > but not all? Well, we have terms in Scots (which isn't English) which are commonly used in sentences with English terms around them. Two short useful articles: https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/what-is-scots/ https://dsl.ac.uk/about-scots/a-language-or-a-dialect/ -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXT] Re: z/OSMF
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 14:17, Crawford Robert C (Contractor) wrote: > In the early 80's we had an adventure game written in PL/1. It was > largely table driven so I added a room full of Texas Aggies. To > retrieve the "treasure," an Aggie Joke book, you had to find a bar of > soap and throw it into the room at which point the Aggies would run out > of the room enabling you to get the book. > > For the record, I am a Texas Aggie and I understand that the joke will > be lost on 49/50ths of the US. Unless you're implying that an Aggie, whatever that is (someone from Texas A? - which even I, in Scotland, have heard of) is averse to soap, it's unclear. We're not all in or from the US. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programming Hardware
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 01:08, Farley, Peter wrote: > I tend to wear out the keycaps long before the rest of the keyboard > gets old and cranky. Replacement keycap stickers work for a while, but > I wear them out too. I use Dymo-tape to make my own replacement legends; sometimes taking advantage of the high visibility black (print) on yellow (tape) tapes to make certain keys easier to see at dusk. I paint over them with clear nail-varnish, which significantly reduces the likelihood of their edges beginning to peel, and also lengthens the time the new labels stay legible. When they get hard to read, I peel them off, clean the adhesive off the key (with isopropyl alcohol, as used for cleaning tape heads on open-reel tape machines etc) and replace the Dymo tape legend. It's sometimes hard to find an edge to peel off an illegible Dymo label but a very sharp craft knife or the point of the smallest jeweller's screwdriver in the set helps with that. Maybe my next laptop will have backlit keys. But the most-recent new purchases didn't (which is annoying but other aspects of their hardware spec mattered more). Anyway, for all I know, the backlit keyboards may have their own problems... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programming Hardware
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 04:15, Bob Bridges wrote: > Always wired, for me. I've used a wireless mouse at church, and during a > service is the wrong time to realize that the mouse is getting funky and > needs new batteries. I've used radio mics (when recording classical music concerts when the extra expense of hiring radio mics was cheaper than the cost of my time running 100m+ lengths of cables) and ALWAYS put fresh batteries in for both the rehearsals and the concerts themselves. I've also got a Tascam digital recorder which takes 8 batteries; I use it on mains but with batteries in it in case the mains fails. That also gets fresh batteries for both rehearsal and concert (not that I've been well enough to sing or record anything recently). -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programming Hardware
On Wed, 5 Jul 2023, at 00:27, Steve Smith wrote: > The one thing Microsoft does well is mouses. Logitech is also good. Logitech used to be good but in my recent experience I'd say they are putting too-cheap microswitches in them. I've had three mice (of different Logitech models) all start signalling double-clicks when a button is pressed once. Reviews on Amazon suggest lots of people have found the same. Before this I had no problems, but had bought several mice - one for each of a series of laptops and desktops. It's probably deliberate so that users have to buy new mice every few months. My most recent mouse - wireless, and used mainly in bed when it runs on top of the duvet or under it, on the sheet, with a laptop on an overbed table at most a couple of feet above it, is an Anker "vertical mouse". That's - so far - holding up well (and it's easier on the wrist too). I think one reason it's still ok is that its peculiar body shape means that it tends - if it falls off the bed - to roll (like a landing paratrooper) when it hits the floor, cushioning the shock. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Two related member generation questions
On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 12:57, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Keep? Still? I don't recall saying it more than once. I thought (back in April) that I'd read your "are you sure you don't mean in an old version of SMP, rather than SMP/E", comment at least once before - possibly lots of years ago though. I've only got a few hundred old IBM-MAIN posts accessible on the system I'm using now so can't search right back to whenever I started posting - which I expect was in the 1990s. And searching for old posts containing eg "member name" or "member-name" plus "weird" or "strange" or something is likely to be unrewarding as those words wll crop up in lots of posts. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Two related member generation questions
On Wed, 31 May 2023, at 11:50, David Spiegel wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > "...I've no idea if that is or was correct ..." > Have you ever heard of the CSI (Consolidated Software Inventory)? > This/these VSAM Dataset(s) has/have been part of SMP/e since the day it > came out in the '80s. Yes, of course. But I answered in the context of I/O to the PDSes. It seems weird that they'd be VSAM. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Two related member generation questions
On Tue, 30 May 2023, at 21:41, Seymour J Metz wrote: > SMP/E uses VSAM I've no idea if that is or was correct > and doesn't have the wonky member names of SMP through SMP4. You keep saying this ... and you're still wrong. I don't know why you're so sure. Maybe it's changed since then (sometime between 1985 and 2000 or so, I expect). I only ever used SMP/E, and wonky member names did exist in one (at least) of the PDSes it used to store stuff. I seem to remember also that the PDS I found them in had a vast number of members in it - can't recall just how many that was though. Last time we discussed this (around 09 APRIL this year) I guessed which PDS it might have been - and was probably wrong. Someone else said they thought it was perhaps the SMPSCDS. I've just run a search of my PC copies of some old mainframe notes, JCL etc, looking for "SMPSCDS" and I found a reference to this exact issue inside the transcript of a discussion I had with IBM support (from, I think, the year 2000), when we were using os390 2.6 ... though that's not the os in which I first noticed the weird member names). The discussion was on the wider issue of poor documentation of just exactly which characters were valid in datasetnames. For example I'd found it was psossible to create dsnames with dashes / minus signs / hyphens in their qualifiers. IBM said it was impossible. It wasn't - I'd successfully created MYHLQ.TEST-- via ispf option 3.2 and also MYHLQ.TEST- in JCL, without having single quotes around those dsnames. Another character one could get into a qualifier was the left curly bracket (of course those are in some SVC member names) and perhaps the code that allowed those in ispf accidentally allowed them in qualifiers as well. I can't remember. The conversation then moved on to implications of not being able to SMS-manage datasets whose names didn't meet the tighter rules that SMS used. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Inexplicable 0C4!
On Fri, 28 Apr 2023, at 12:31, Michael Stein wrote: > How about setting the length to include just to the end of the current > page. Then as the first operand doesn't cross a page boundary ... Just imagine if the first operand started on the last byte of the page! Wouldn't it be better to getmain a page (or a few more), just for the first operand to reside in, and then follow your "do it in chunks" approach? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: interfacing C with Rexx
On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, at 13:29, Rick Troth wrote: > hello > > I have a project where I want to call C from Rexx. > I've done this with Regina several times. Can someone tell me how, or > point to doco, or (best) lend a hand, calling C from ooRexx? Do you have ooREXX running on a mainframe? Which OS? If z/OS ... Is the C program in LINKLIST? or a load lib? What calling (register) convention is it written with - like a TSO CP, or a job-step program, or what? Are you expecting the C code to access contents of rexx variables "by magic" or are you going to pass copies of their values, or their addresses in storage, or what? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Call by value, final
On Sun, 9 Apr 2023, at 11:10, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Are you sure that you're not thinking of SMP through SMP4, the free SMP > that preceeded SMP/E? Certain. I only ever used SMP/E - roughly between 1986 and the late 1990s. I don't recall precisely but I think these weird member names were visible via ispf member lists, and I was probably looking at the SMPMTS or SMPPTS. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Call by value, final
On Sat, 8 Apr 2023, at 15:54, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Sat, 8 Apr 2023 04:27:04 +, Frank Swarbrick wrote: >> >>... The assembler seems OK with it, but the linker is converted to upper >> case, even though I've specified CASE(MIXED). >> > I'm surprised. In an experiment long ago I was able to create a member > in an (old-fashioned) PDS simply with CASE(MIXED); NAME lower. I'm sure I recall that some of the SMP/E work PDSes had member names that not only were mixed case but also included characters that you'd not see in PDSs processed via standard ispf utilities. I can't quite remember if they used every single byte value in each of the 8 character positions, but I think they might have done, thus allowing 256 ** 8 different member names. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 13:23, Bill Johnson wrote: > I’ve read numerous articles and analysis that indicates LinkedIn has a > problem with embellished & fake resumes. Here’s one. > > https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/oct/29/linkedin-has-a-fake-profile-problem-can-it-fix-this-blot-on-its-cv I'm sure that's true ... but I'd think that many people's listings are basically correct ... because their own peers will force them to be honest. And, do you think I'm an idiot? Without social media one had nearly no way to find things out about local architects, lawyers etc. With, one at least has a few pointers with which one can google local newspapers, trade organisations etc. Of course not all of what one finds is credible, but not all that many people who've claimed to work for local company X or participated in local event Y have also built a complete online fake trail of supporting evidence in their local (or tech) communities. > I also don’t like having my information on the internet for all to see No, well I guess one has to decide how much to post. It's like deciding whether to post (everywhere) under one's real name or to use nicknames in some or all places. I decided in the 1990s that I would use my real name and stand by what I wrote, even though it'd have been a lot easier sometimes (when I offended someone or got completely the wrong end of some stick) to have been able to hide behind some level of anonymity. But eg I do blur out identifyng details on photographs I share with people. I don't put my home address in my email signature - some people seem not to see the risk in doing that and then telling the world they're going on holiday... > I’m not on Facebook OTOH you're probably not somewhere between bed- & house-bound with nearly no in-person social life either. But for people who are, the various social-media platforms make one feel much less isolated, and it's done wonders for patient-support communites as well. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
On Fri, 7 Apr 2023, at 05:36, Bill Johnson wrote: > Yes Bill Johnson is my real name and I’ve never been on LinkedIn. > That’s just an ego trip and place where people like you go for > confirmation... I've certainly seen some people use it as an ego-trip, for "networking" and - presumably - trying to increase their chances of finding work. I use LinkedIn as a useful place to find out more about people whom I'm going to have contact with (in any sphere, certainly not just in computing). It's particularly useful when it's not entirely clear from some company's website whether they've got tens/hundreds of employees or just one person working from home. (In the UK) I also look at Companies House registrations of companies, who the directors are etc, and look at what else they're involved in, and especially if any of their prior businesses have gone under or they've been prosecuted for anything. Eg, is that lawyer someone who's worked for one or two companies for many years, or a whole string of places, never for more than a year or two, or did they only qualify last year? Is that "data protection officer" someone with any understanding of how computer systems work, or just an administrator, or a lawyer? Knowing more about people allows one to slant emails to them in differing ways, which can be useful. I'm listed there, but not for the purposes of finding work; mainly so that people whom I once worked with have a better chance of finding me if they want to. And also - you have to be a member to be able to see other people's profiles. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 14:01, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > Too many languages lack ELSEIF and strong closure. Fie on > the danglig ELSE! An ALGOL variant (S-ALGOL) that I used at university differentiated between, IIRC, IF ... THEN ... ELSE and IF ... DO which meant that as soon as the compiler saw THEN or DO it knew whether or not there should be an ELSE later on. It was such a simple idea but it worked well for both programmers & the compiler. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Stop the ragging on COBOL please [was: RE: ASM call by value]
On Wed, 29 Mar 2023, at 05:24, David Crayford wrote: > The > interviewer held out both hands, one with an open palm the other with a > clenched fist and asked me "what hand is the ball bearing in"?. And did they want the "obvious" answer - the clenched fist, or did they want one of the more considered alternatives, eg - does either hand actually contain a ball bearing? - Can't tell. If it exists, how big is the bearing? (if very small it could easily be held between two fingers of the open palm) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:59, Seymour J Metz wrote: > And bum is equivalent to the a-word. Yes of course, but there's still a difference in severity been (say) calling someone an a*s/ar*e and the other ... though there is (in Scotland, and for all I know elsewhere too) a vernacular way (maybe commonest in Glasgow?) in which referring to eg "that bunch of people" over there as "they c*nts" is much less offensive than saying directly to your pal or shouting across the street "you're a c*nt". In this sense "they c*nts" is no worse than "those blokes". (NB I'm not precious about using the word but some people's email systems especially on corporate systems might not like me using it in full.) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Tue, 21 Mar 2023, at 13:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I also don't understand why fanny pack is offensive ... Fanny is equivalent to the c-word ... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Scheduling a job to run after a delay
On Mon, 20 Mar 2023, at 02:39, Gibney, Dave wrote: > A different approach is to add a additional step at or near the top > that waits. I had a very short assembler program that called STIMER > based on parm input. Does that not mean holding up an initiator for an hour, doing nothing? It's not a technique you'd want everyone to start using! -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Mon, 20 Mar 2023, at 02:23, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Also Kipling. Kindling ??(sorry) > > The root is from "bundle" of sticks and small pieces of wood, and by > expansion to bundles of other things. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Sun, 19 Mar 2023, at 18:04, Colin Paice wrote: > I got into trouble with the Americans ( from the days when people were > allowed to smoke in the office) in a presentation with a chart saying " 10 > minute fag break" That might have been misinterpreted here in the UK too, if those present were educated at a public school (*). * - which is a misleading term in itself, as it means a very expensive private school, eg Eton. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 12:47, Bob Bridges wrote: > I suppose this is based on rhyming slang? I wouldn't begin to know how > to decipher it. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_Alphabet where there's explanations. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Question for our international friends (mostly)
On Sat, 18 Mar 2023, at 01:38, Bernd Oppolzer wrote: > Very interesting discussion. > > I recently tried to understand what the correct pronounciation of the > word "router" is, > because here in Germany there are different opinions. And I learned in > the end, that BOTH > ways are correct, like "rooter" and (don't know how to spell the other, > maybe) "row-ter". In the UK, usual usage is "rooter" for the network device, but "row-ter" for the woodworking tool. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: not using SMPe
On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, at 23:10, Andrew Rowley wrote: > Not everyone loves chasing pre-req chains in SMP/E. Plus the > vendor needs to track it all somehow and build those chains. But doesn't the vendor already have to understand whether or not separate changes they've made to their product affect each other? Even if every successive release of a product is shipped with every potential function included, there still needs to be documentation that explains if you turn feature X on then be aware of the effects that will have on feature Y, or that features P and Q can't both be in use, or ... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: One more REXX Question
On Sat, 4 Mar 2023, at 01:54, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > Good idea, since IEBCOPY can SELECT a pattern and/or a list of members > and will perform the operation in a single CALL. LMCOPY does not allow > a list of members. Is there an enqueue issue doing that? I'd assume that the LM services use the ispf edit (etc) enqueues - I can't remember the QNAME - SPFEDIT or SPFDSN maybe? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ISPF List
On Fri, 3 Mar 2023, at 13:50, Steve Thompson wrote: > ND stopped supporting ISPF List. Anyone know where it went or if > it still exists? I've seen traffic on it in mid-Feb 2023. According to headers in the mails: List-Subscribe: <https://groups.google.com/a/nd.edu/group/ispf-l-list/subscribe>, <mailto:ispf-l-list+subscr...@nd.edu> and I don't remember have to resubscribe to a google list; it must have been done automatically. As far as I know the posting address hasn't changed - it's still ispf-l-l...@nd.edu so maybe ND forwards the traffic? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: zOSMF and zOWE for non-mainframers
On Tue, 28 Feb 2023, at 20:19, David Crayford wrote: > Utilizing > package managers to install packages is a fundamental aspect of > utilizing contemporary programming languages. The package manager aspect os more or less irrelevant though. What matters is the wealth of add-ons. (And to my mind, it's a problem. There's too many alternatives. If there was - say - only one package for (eg) Perl that handled SMTP and only one for JSON and only one for ... it'd be easy to decide which to use. But there's not ... and they have interdependencies.) That is, if there was a more complex, or indeed a simpler way of finding and installing them, that'd be pretty much irrelevant. Anyone wanting or needing them would still find & install them, What's fantastic is that - if one can decide which add-ons to use, they smplify life a lot. Then again my (limited) experience of such things is that their documentation is often very poor. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Silly JES2 question
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023, at 23:09, Pommier, Rex wrote: > We have COMMAND=EXECUTE on a couple job classes. Do you limit who can use those classes? Does anything (RACF or whatever) limit which commands can be executed? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Silly JES2 question
On Mon, 27 Feb 2023, at 22:48, Steve Smith wrote: > JES2 ignores command statements imbedded in a job anyway. Doesn't that depend on the COMMAND= parm in the JES2 jobclass that the job is running in, in theory? Or has that parameter option been removed? I suppose some sites might allow it ... -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?
On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 23:27, Beverly Caldwell wrote: > I would answer your questions if knew who you were and why you were asking! > But yes it has never been a problem for me. Sometimes takes a little > deviousness to make the transfer work. These people think they are > so smart but there is usually a way round their little schemes. I do not see why you'd to know who I am - how does that affect the answer? I've been reading and posting on IBM-mainframe mail lists/newsgroups for - I think - about 25 years. Before ill-health forced me to stop work I was an MVS sysprog at a UK bank for a while, then led a small programming team who (amongst other things) worked on SA/390 automation. If you don't believe it, search for me on LinkedIn. I'm asking because I've been following the thread and was somewhat amazed at the assumption that soneone starting work at a new site could expect to bring their own tools with them, with impunity. When you refer to "These people think they are so smart...", who do you mean? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: How long for an experiened z/OS sysprog to come up to speed on a new environment?
On Sun, 19 Feb 2023, at 22:33, Rob Schramm wrote: > Ps Most of the rest can be figured out.. tools/JCL can be downloaded Do all sites actually let you bring in your own tools, sample JCL etc? How about - say - assembler source? It seems to me that some places might view that as a security risk. And how, if you develop any new samples/tools at one site do you get them out afterwards? Never mind moving to a new site, how much less productive does anyone think they would be if one day they suddenly had no access to their own datasets (and let's say those of colleagues, as well)? I know that when I last worked I hardly ever wrote any JCL etc from scratch. I looked for my own prior examples. If I had none, I browsed my immediate colleagues' PDSes. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ISPF macro/script
On Tue, 7 Feb 2023, at 16:40, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > For some chores similar to this it's a crying shame that ISPF shuns > compound symbols: > > /* Suppose the content to insert is in stem TemplateLine. */ > do L = 1 to TemplateLine.0 > address ISREDIT "line_after .zl = (TemplateLine.L)" > end L Yes, but the only fractionally different do L = 1 to TemplateLine.0 newline = TemplateLine.L address ISREDIT "line_after .zl = (newline)" end L will surely work? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Goodbye and thanks for all the fish
On Wed, 8 Feb 2023, at 20:15, Wayne Bickerdike wrote: > I retired in 2021 but I still maintain an interest here. Good for the brain > cells. I couldn't agree more. It always saddens me to see people saying byebye here. Ill-health forced me to stop work in March 2000, but I was never given time at work to use groups like this - always did so in my own time, and I'm still here (and on many other computing mail lists, eg for OSes and products I have never used but their discussions interest me). Here, there's more and more discussions that I couldn't usefully contribute to, but it is still INTERESTING, so I'm staying. (I did a Computer Science degree in the early 1980s, then worked as an applications programmer in a VM/CMS site (& also with BBC micros), then became a trainee MVS sysprog, and in due course a more senior one, then moved sideways to run a small ops/systems-focussed programming team, at a UK bank.) -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Is anyone there?
On Tue, 10 Jan 2023, at 16:39, Farley, Peter wrote: > Sounds like that is the case. I received multiple IBM-MAIN posts on > 1/7 and 1/8 but none on 1/9, and these from you and others today (along > with Lionel's ChatGPT poem today - twice). He posted two different poems. Are you sure you got just one of them, twice? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: SIGNOFF IBM-MAIN
On Wed, 28 Dec 2022, at 13:25, Greg Shirey wrote: > Thanks for all the fish! > > -- > For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, > send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN Perhaps you should have paid more attention to the last two lines of text in every mail... That is, commands gets sent to a different address from that used for posts. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Fri, 23 Dec 2022, at 12:51, Seymour J Metz wrote: > emacs > THE > vi > ... I've never used either emacs or vi and don't much want to have to learn another text editor's command set. Regarding THE, is there a list anywhere of what the differences between it and Kedit are? Wading through the THE documentation looking at each command is tedious, and it's not helped by finding out that some things are labelled "(not implemented)". > You may have my copy of TSPF when they pry it out of my cold, dead > fingers. I suspect that actually getting it from your estate might be tricky -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 22:11, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Alas, KEDIT is missing important functionality. Yes, but for those of us without your favourite, what else is there? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 21:23, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Waterloo Script will work just fine with TSO. > > If only VM/SP were public domain I'd suggest XEDIT as a reason to learn VM. I use Kedit these days on my home (which is the only place I ever am) PCs. I did use Xedit for 3 years, back in the mid 1980s. (I also wrote a full-screen editor for APL functions, vaguely based on some simple Xedit facilities) in APL, for IBM, as a student when the default line-mode editing of APL functions was so limited in what it could do. That must have been in 1981. I bet they never did anything with it). For me, Kedit plus its macros (in Kexx) beats any of the ispf-like editors with macros not written in rexx. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 20:58, Bob Bridges wrote: > But long ago > I took up the habit of teaching each new PC to default to WordPad for .rtf > documents, and that's what I use to write one- or two-page documentation on > simple commands and utilities. It's a while since I last used Wordpad, but one problem I had was that any change one made to its options affected any document subsequently edited/viewed with it. Options were not stored with the document. For anything complex I use a DTP program that originated on RISC OS (the OS used by the successors to the BBC Microcomputers) - named Ovation and a successor, Ovation Pro. That was eventually ported to Windows. It has been extended, as it supports "applets" written in a subset of C. It can save files in only two formats, a binary one, and a plain text one. As a matter of course I always save in both formats, so that if some sort of corruption breaks the binary file I can still use the other. Cunning people have been known to write code to generate or adjust the plain text form. It really IS a text & graphics layout program more than a word-processer, though. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 20:20, Phil Smith III wrote:
> Jeremy-you realize that PostScript is about as far as you can get from
> markup in a lot of ways, right? It's fun stuff but not what people generally
> mean when they say "markup". Just sayin'.
Good point!
When I used DCF, I wrote a lot of macros; my most complex set used two
separate definitions of a whole set of macros; the first set were used on
the first pass through a set of related documents and generated a whole
set of intermediate files. Then the second set of definitions were used
for a conventional 2-pass process to generate the final documents,
reading both the original files and all the intermediate ones.
So to some extent it's the programmability that I really miss - and the
facility for embedded comments. The PS example has both. If one
defines a tailored set of macros (or - in PS - PS commands eg in the
building plans file, a command to draw a wall) then the source file
becomes at least in part a long sequence of commands, interspersed
with text to be placed on the page. Eg, near the start of the file there's
this
/smoke_alarm % S: x_pos y_pos%{{
{ newpath 1 index 1 index 80 0 360 arc 1 index 1 index
60 0 360 arc 40 0 360 arc stroke } def
which is a definition (the trailing "def") of a macro named "smoke_alarm"
(which draws a symbol consisting of three concentric circles). It takes
2 parameters (off the stack) which are the x and y positions on the
page where it is to go).
Later on in the file we have for example: 4200 7000 smoke_alarm
(and quite a few other calls).
My main criticism of the way the PS was written is that there's too
many instances of actual numbers. I'd rather have seen eg smoke
alarm positions defined in terms of the symbolic locations of the
nearby walls, and the distance from a wall that an alarm should be
placed at. It'd make the code easier to understand too.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
--
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Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 17:36, David Spiegel wrote: > Hi Jeremy, > CBT Files 280-287 (cbttape.org) Thank-you! At last, a compelling reason to install Hercules and some ancient version of VM (not used that for real since 1985 or so, though), or - since I see the CBT tapes mention a TSO command processor and a "prompter" for Waterloo Script - maybe (since I have a lot more MVS experience than VM) Hercules and one of the MVS38J systems. I'll add that to my long list of things to do when I have the time and energy to attempt it. I have also contemplated learning PostScript ... A few years ago there was a discussion on a Debian mail list (I've never used any form of linux system except for a live CD one to rescue files from a corrupt disk, but I lurk on various mail-lists looking for interesting discussions)... In this case it was about software for preparing drawings for house changes etc. Various people commented that they found GUI applications really hard to learn just enough to prepare a single set of plans. Someone commented that they had prepared plans for a building project using PS; I managed to get a copy of that - just 800 lines of code in a plain text file ... which - when opened in a PDF/PS viewer - produces a 4-page building plan. I am quite sure that working out how the 800 lines produce that would be a lot less hard than learning a GUI system, not least because one can embed comments in the PS explaining why one is doing something in a particular way. What's more, I thought I could probably write some nifty rexx to produce PS, if I ever decided to use this approach myself. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Markup languages
On Thu, 22 Dec 2022, at 00:38, Thomas Kern wrote: > I have liked Waterloo Script since I was introduced to it and began > writing Data Center Operation manuals using it. Is an executable for it available anywhere? If so, for what platform? Is the source available? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FTP Software for Mainframe to PC
On Wed, 15 Jun 2022, at 05:35, Jeremy Nicoll wrote: > That implies that the parser looks for possible ending > delimiters before it parses the contents of the delimited > string. > > It's not how I'd have designed it! I'd have gone with > a strict left to right character by character lexical scan. Oops, must think more carefully. This is what comes of writing a reply at 5am... I assumed, without engaging my brain, that the repeated single quote in your example meant that ispf edit would regard that as an escaped single quote, but apparently it doesn't. So if it's not considering escaped chars in a delimited string the simpler parsing that looks first for possible end delimiters is easier to understand. Also, would CHANGE PARM ""Hello," says O'Reilly." fail because the space after the double quote after the comma would also be taken to imply that the delimited string ends there? That is "says O'Reilly." is unexpected surplus? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FTP Software for Mainframe to PC
On Tue, 14 Jun 2022, at 17:45, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > ISPF, like JCL, is a user interface supporting delimited strings in > commands, but reports > an error for: > CHANGE PARM '"Hello," says O''Reilly.' Does the error say what the problem is? I'm assuming it's because of the R (of Reilly) being taken as an indicator that the single-quote-delimited string before it is to be interpreted as a regex? (because of the statement starting "A delimiter character in the string is also" in: Delimited string Any string enclosed (delimited) by either single quotes ( ' ) or double quotes ( " ). The beginning and ending delimiters must be the same character. The string can contain the delimiter character. However, if a delimiter character in the string is followed by a blank ( ) or a comma ( , ), that delimiter character is processed as the ending delimiter. A delimiter character in the string is also processed as the ending delimiter if it is followed by the letter c, p, r, t, or x. In these cases, the letter is processed as an indication that the preceding string is a character, picture, regular expression, text, or hexadecimal string. That's on p45 of "ISPF Edit and Edit Macros" SC19-3621-30) That implies that the parser looks for possible ending delimiters before it parses the contents of the delimited string. It's not how I'd have designed it! I'd have gone with a strict left to right character by character lexical scan. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FTP Software for Mainframe to PC
On Tue, 14 Jun 2022, at 22:25, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Tue, 14 Jun 2022 20:24:15 +, Seymour J Metz wrote: >>None of them, of course, is a programming language. >> > But Rexx certainly is, and can implement Edit macros. Yes, but it's trivial, in a macro, to convert arbitrary strings of characters into their hex representations and issue commands using the hex-format arguments. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: FTP Software for Mainframe to PC
On Tue, 14 Jun 2022, at 15:05, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > Yup. Pet peeve: ISPF Edit has no way of escaping apostrophe, which otheer > IBM languages But "ispf edit" isn't a language. What do you mean? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: SDSF & TSS (RACF)
On Mon, 23 May 2022, at 21:55, Steely.Mark wrote: > Then select the job and receives the following messages: > > TSS7257E Unauthorized Access Level for JESSPOOL > > TSS7257E Unauthorized Access Level for JESSPOOL > > TSS7257E Unauthorized Access Level for JESSPOOL > Leaving aside the other issue, why is only the first four characters of the syslog ddname being checked? Surely you're going to need to look at whole ddnames? Or, is the TSS7257E message assuming that the value between the < & > is a max-length 44 chars dsname when perhaps it needs to be a resource name (or whatever TSS calls values that can be lots longer than that)? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: creating a python login module
On Mon, 21 Feb 2022, at 12:38, Erik Janssen wrote: > Hello List, > > We are creating some APIs with python flask running on z/os (some in > combination with z open automation utilities in order to drive existing > rexx / ispf edit macro logic) and that is looking very promising. In > order to properly protect those APIs I am trying to create a > authorization API ... A long time ago I wrote an ispf dialog, using rexx and edit macros, and had to control what options users could pick within that. I used a small assembler program to check (in our case) ACF2 resource rules. However a determined user could have worked around that, eg by editing control files (which the edit macros normally updated) by hand, perhaps in a split-screen while the user-facing dialog was running, so at that stage in the system those rules were really just guiding what a user could try to do. At points in the ispf dialog, it issued WTOs which SA/390 automation responded to (if they came from people entitled to issue them). It'd start started tasks with suitable parameters, to pick up the just-edited request files and do stuff. The WTOs said in them which user was making a request, but that was a deliberate trap; obviously SA/390 knew who'd run the program that issued the WTOs. If that wasn't the named-userid we'd know at once that someone was trying to beat the system. The started tasks re-checked the resource rules to determine whether the things being asked for were actually allowed. Whereas "clever" users could have got around the dialog-controlled stuff, they couldn't change what the STC would do. Depending on what your system does you may need some similar logic. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Rexx routine to dump all variables when debugging?
On Thu, 17 Feb 2022, at 02:44, Farley, Peter x23353 wrote: > It used to be that our actual email addresses showed in the listserv > headers, but I guess they are trying to protect our identities. I can see some people's real email addresses in some posts here. They're sometimes in ordinary headers, as they always used to be. They're sometimes in the SPF (Sender Policy Framework) headers, but not every post contains those - dunno why. They're sometimes poorly disguised in message-ids too. It maybe depends on whether people are posting by usenet or email, or via a website portal, as well as the client they use. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ... Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS
On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, at 14:33, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I hate, lathe and despise C ... Hmm, is this what is meant in computing by a "tool chain"? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ... Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS
On Thu, 6 Jan 2022, at 08:53, David Crayford wrote: > It's insulting to call young people prima donna's just because they > don't want to use 3270 or JCL. Absolutely. But what's a decent alternative to JCL? I know (because 20+ years ago I did so) one can replace job steps with JCL-controlled allocation by rexx steps which dynamically allocate datasets and invoke the program that would otherwise have been the job-step pgm, but it was only useful in limited situations. The jobs concerned were in essence single step ones, with a few trailer steps doing housekeepng stuff only if the main step worked. If the main step couldn't allocate the datasets it needed (in a try, wait a while, retry loop) they'd stop and some time later be resubmitted by the job scheduler after - hopefully - whatever had stopped them from getting the required files was no longer true. But I can't imagine a typical batch job with tens or a hundred+ steps being set up like that unless of course the whole suite of jobs was expressly designed with this in mind from the start. So if someone prefers shell scripts to JCL, that might be ok for personal work, but how does it work with a scheduler and job-restarts? Isn't JCL already a really good tool for what it does? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ... Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS
On Tue, 4 Jan 2022, at 13:13, Rony G. Flatscher wrote: > On 03.01.2022 17:35, Bob Bridges wrote: >> And I've never heard about ooREXX being available on z/OS. >> How do you manage that? Color me interested. > Best to give you the links for the tutorial (using ooRexx on the > mainframe to interface with DB2) > written by Paul Dunkley: > > * either: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/search/?q=jdbc+tutorial=250> > * or directly: > o Part 1: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/35565829/> > o Part 2: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/35773359/> > o Part 3: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/35894589/> > o Part 4: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/35966208/> > o Part, Interim Note: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/36164161/> > o Part 5: > <https://sourceforge.net/p/bsf4oorexx/mailman/message/36183882/> Are you SURE that's for using ooREXX under z/OS?Early on in the first article it says "The OS is SLES11 SP4 on IBM System z. SLES11 runs in a z/VM virtual machine." Google tells me that "SLES11" is SUSE Linux. Presumably an ooREXX compiled under SUSE Linux gives one something with no knowledge of, for example, z/OS file systems, let alone any of the environments supported under TSO REXX. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AWK ? - Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021, at 20:18, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 20:05:01 +0000, Jeremy Nicoll wrote: >> >>> The previous ply ... >> >>Every time I see this use of "ply" I think it's weird. It seems a >> sort of back-formation from "reply". >> > No. See: <https://www.etymonline.com/word/reply> I don't see any justification there for the use of the noun "ply" to mean something in a prior part of a discussion. Nor at https://www.etymonline.com/word/ply >>It's not, as far as I know, valid in UK English. Is it valid anywhere >>else? >> > <https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ply> > ply noun > plural plies > Definition of ply (Entry 2 of 3) > 1a : one of several layers (as of cloth) usually sewn or laminated > together I'm not quibbling that use of "ply", (a layer of cloth, wood, a thread in eg wool or twine)... I again don't see any justification for your use, which - even if it's reasonable in an archaic fashion - is very odd in modern use, especially on an IT mail-list. Do you not think this might be hard for people whose first language is neither contemporary English nor anything mediaeval to understand? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: AWK ? - Re: Top 8 Reasons for using Python instead of REXX for z/OS
On Sun, 19 Dec 2021, at 19:55, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > The previous ply was comparing Rexx to JCL, not OREXX, but OK: Every time I see this use of "ply" I think it's weird. It seems a sort of back-formation from "reply". It's not, as far as I know, valid in UK English. Is it valid anywhere else? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ServiceLink down?
On Fri, 10 Dec 2021, at 15:13, Bill Johnson wrote: > Most of the “downtime” for IBMLINK I’ve seen discussed here has been > people using the wrong link or some other user error. Presumably the "wrong link" previously worked. If IBM have moved the service somewhere else, shouldn't they have provided redirects from the old location to the new one, and/or very visible banners telling people that in so-many days the old link will no longer work? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Volume allocated to *MASTER*
On Wed, 3 Nov 2021, at 06:27, kekronbekron wrote: > Excellent, thank you! > So it's likely that Seymour's answer had this hidden assumption that > folks knew MainView. I don't think that follows. "Run the " is a common expression which I've known as long as I used IPCS, where it'd mean chain through successive instances of some arbitrary control block looking for something. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Asking for a friend - reported NPM/node.js vulnerabilities
On Sun, 24 Oct 2021, at 11:40, Support, DUNNIT SYSTEMS LTD. wrote: > I know very little about the technical side of anything Java. The articles are not about Java, but the unrelated and completely different language Javascript. Javascript often runs in a browsr (ie client-side) but there's also a variant "node-js" which can be used on servers (instead of using eg php), and - I think - also installed on users' machines to be used as just another scripting language (so, like perl, python or REXX). -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: PL/1 vs JCL (Phonetics)
On Tue, 5 Oct 2021, at 17:46, Mike Kerford-Byrnes wrote: > For an alternative phonetic alphabet, this might be of interest (if anyone > can supply the value for "h")... There's lots of alternatives! See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cockney_Alphabet -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2021, at 13:06, Bill Johnson wrote: > I said the vast majority of REXX/CLISTS are not very long. 40 was not > MY line in the sand. Yes it was. If you can't remember what you wrote, you could look back at the prior messages in the thread. You wrote: "Anyone who writes a compiler or assembler is quite complex. And very likely thousands of lines of code that took years to develop. More in line with the COBOL programs I was referencing. Not some 40 line REXX program that took a day or two." -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Tue, 24 Aug 2021, at 12:16, Bill Johnson wrote: > The hilarity continues. You say that length isn't a good measure > of complexity I did, that's true. But in what I wrote below I also said that I wasn't claiming that my longest example was particularly complex. Probably the most complex code in what I did describe is in the general macro I wrote (which frontends Kedit's own menu support which is somewhat limited) to handle more complex menus. That's about 650 lines of code. You might be unfamiliar with Kedit; it's a PC version of IBM's Xedit, and it has lots of commands for setting/querying editor status & control parms, plus of course commands that directly edit data. Writing good Kedit macros is broadly comparable to writing Ispf edit macros. > and then search high and low for the longest REXX programs > you can find. That's because of that "40-line script" comment of yours which strongly implied you think that no-one writes larger execs. Incidentally I noticed I have an old copy of an IBM rexx exec here - ISPDTLC - which is 11,174 lines of code. It was written in 1989 so if the same thing still exists I would expect it might have grown a bit. I don't imagine it's trivial. Its purpose is to "Convert SAA Dialog Tag Language tags to ISPF source panels, message files, command tables, etc." Back in the early 1980s I wrote some long (& complex) COBOL programs. I wrote a compiler in COBOL for a document/data definition language I'd invented, then a sort of structured text editor that allowed a user to walk through a document that adhered to such a predefined structure adding, editing & removing text that complied with the definition, moving nodes (chapters, sections, pages ... whatever) around etc. It was, I think, a sort of precursor to a DTD-driven XML editor. It had to handle variable length snippets of text, so part of the editor implemented heap storage for those strings. The total amount of working storage the compiler supported was not enough to hold documents and all the control structures so I wrote a paging subsystem (still in COBOL) to move huge chunks of data in & out of working storage. Quite a lot of the data being moved was itself control tables for other parts of the data. When the thing was in debug mode one could follow the linked-lists that held the whole data-structure together, edit data and pointers & even trigger the program's garbage collector. COBOL was, of course, not the best language for this, but I was required to use an IBM-supported language that our installation had a licence for. It would have been a lot easier to use our Pascal compiler but that came from a German or Austrian university and was ruled out. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021, at 23:00, Seymour J Metz wrote: > I'm looking at a home-grown REXX script that is 1690 lines long, and in > some REXX circles it would be considered tiny. It does use external > utilities, but is by no means just glue. I'd bet that there are edit > macros orders of magnitude larger. I've got a KEXX macro here that's currently 12,700 lines long. I'm not claiming it's particularly complex though. A lot of its contents are in essence declarations of structured data, so that instead of it reading and parsing/validating an external data file then if everything is ok doing things with the data, the data is in the macro itself so when it executes it validates and then processes that inline data. A short example of one block of that data is call srch "\Sandi Toksvig\" call hsepprog "It's Your Round" call hsepprog "I've Never Seen Star Wars" call skipprog "News Quiz Extra" call skipprog "The News Quiz" * call omit "\|radio|Loose Ends|b054gxpj|\" call send The "call srch" / "call send" function calls enclose a definition (of BBC radio programme) search criteria. There's other similar enclosing pairs of function calls to define other actions. When the file is open in Kedit there's context-specific editing functions (which themselves are coded in many hundreds of lines of Kexx) which offer me a menu (and sub-menu and in a few cases sub-sub-menus) of actions for manipulating related entries in the primary script. My Kedit KML file (which holds the macro definitions which need to be in-memory, plus those I've chosen to load that way) is just under 5400 lines long at the moment. I have a handful of Kedit / KEXX macros which are (of course) mainly meant to be run from the Kedit command line, but also work from a Windows cmd.exe terminal window under ooREXX. The longest of those is about 4100 lines long. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Programs that work right the first time.
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021, at 18:44, Bill Johnson wrote: > Similar to DC, define constant. But not constant. I neither understand that comment (in the context of my "Add Halfword" one, nor the "AH" comment in reply to what Rex posted. Would you mind elucidating? > On Monday, August 23, 2021, 01:42:29 PM EDT, Jeremy Nicoll > wrote: > > On Mon, 23 Aug 2021, at 18:31, Bill Johnson wrote: > > No problem with AH digs however. > > What is "AH", apart from Add Halfword? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: [External] Programs that work right the first time.
On Mon, 23 Aug 2021, at 18:31, Bill Johnson wrote: > No problem with AH digs however. What is "AH", apart from Add Halfword? > On Monday, August 23, 2021, 12:48:16 PM EDT, Pommier, Rex > wrote: > > Bob, > > No politics, no braggery. :-) I have written a total of 1 program > that compiled and ran clean first time. Early '80s, NCR mini computer > and Cobol. Hardware failures due to environmentals had caused us to > lose the computer and all our A/R transactions for the day. NCR > hobbled enough of the machine back together so we could start recovery > late in the day. We had 2 master files but no transactions. Running > on caffeine and adrenaline, I wrote a compare program as I was keying > it to build the transaction list from the 2 (rather convoluted) ISAM > files with a coworker standing behind me catching my typo's and > offering suggestions as we were going. Got the program keyed and ran > the compile and it compiled clean first try. We looked at each other > and said there's gotta be something wrong with the logic because that > doesn't happen. It was late so we put together the run JCL (or > whatever NCR called it) and submitted it, knowing it would crank for a > few hours and we went home to bed. Came back in the next morning to > see a good transaction file and everything balanced. Neither one of us > to this day knows how we managed that. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Sun, 22 Aug 2021, at 19:49, Bill Johnson wrote: > You claim to know of a 1 line APL super complex program but when > asked to prove it can’t. What I actually said was: "A good case in point is that in APL a useful program can be written in one line." I /did not/ say that I knew of a (specific) 1 line super complex program, just indicating that useful one-liners exist in APL. I was merely suggesting that the number of lines in a program was not a good way of estimating complexity. The two examples I pointed you at on the APL wikipedia page are both (I think) good examples of how a single line of code can (a) do a lot, and (b) be hard to understand at a glance. Even if the individual APL operators (all those greek characters) were represented by operator names, or even function names (though they are not functions) I do not think anyone could guess what those lines do. There's a short line of code (only 17 characters!) that determines "all the prime numbers up to R". Search (for the text in quotes) on the quite long webpage at https://computerhistory.org/blog/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/ to see it, with an explanation there of how that program works. It's a whole lot less easy to understand than the equivalent written in, say COBOL. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Sun, 22 Aug 2021, at 18:43, Bill Johnson wrote: > Anyone who writes a compiler or assembler is quite complex. And very > likely thousands of lines of code that took years to develop. More than just a few thousand, I'd expect, unless it's very-table-driven. > More in line with the COBOL programs I was referencing. Not some 40 > line REXX program that took a day or two. You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about 40-line REXX programs. Why? What makes you think that REXX programs can't also be much much longer? > In College, I wrote an ATM machine. It > took the entire semester and was my class project. Way more complex > than a 40 line REXX/CLIST There you go again. Did you get out of bed on the wrong side today? > or the APL mirage you mention. Show me the 1 > line complex APL program. Remembering, I’m a math major. I haven't programmed in APL since the early 1980s, so I cannot produce an example of my own. But you could look at the "Game of Life" and "HTML tags removal" code examples at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language) to get an idea of how unreadable APL can be. Note that it has a right to left execution order, and a huge range of operators which almost all do different things depending on whether they are used in a monadic or dyadic way - like the difference between the way "-" in arithmetic is either used for negation or subtraction. People who like deliberately writing impenetrable APL expressions tend to write heavily nested expressions. Of course such things are unmaintainable - it's a bit like the impossibility of understanding a complex regular expression at a glance. It's definitely a programming language where people learn idiomatic ways of achieving something then don't look again at the nitty-gritty of what a series of operators actually do. If someone strings a sequence of idioms together in one statement it's hard to see where each one starts and ends. And if someone subtlely changes something inside what looks like an idiom (but isn't) it'd be hard to spot that too. Although APL is good at handling multi-dimensional matrices of numbers it can be used for non-mathematical things too; eg I wrote a simple full- screen text editor, in APL, for editing APL functions. At the time the supported (built-in) way of editing APL functions was much more like line-mode editing of BASIC code. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Programs that work right the first time.
On Sun, 22 Aug 2021, at 02:51, Bill Johnson wrote: > “Programming” in REXX, CLIST, and similar types of languages is hardly > programming. Real programming is hundreds or thousands of lines of > COBOL, with IMS, DB2, or CICS calls. So... if someone writes a compiler or assembler, or a whole OS - none of which contain IMS, DB2, or CICS calls - it's not "real programming"? The length of a program is no indication of its complexity. A good case in point is that in APL a useful program can be written in one line. It's near guaranteed that it won't be comprehensible (APL is commonly regarded as a "write once, read (ie understand later) never" language. A COBOL program that makes calls out to IMS, DB2, CICS etc is quite a lot like a REXX exec that makes calls out to external services. The meat of the task is not being done by either COBOL or REXX which in both cases are the glue that holds the other stuff together. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: even an old mainframer can do it
On Wed, 18 Aug 2021, at 12:52, Tony Thigpen wrote: > The problem is that he approached his objective from the wrong direction. > > It appears that is objective was to 'avoid changing the JCL for > different control cards'. I thought that none of what was written addressed the distinction between JCL doing set-up for a batch process versus (I presume) the python running in the foreground. If the python solution was in fact also run in the background it too would have had some JCL. Would the python recover gracefully if necessary datasets were not available when required? I thought it ironic that he somehow thought that the (I thought) convoluted syntax for passing parms (eg dataset allocation space values) to the python interface was somehow less likely to suffer a problem with a typo than the supposedly complicated JCL he wanted to do away with. And did you notice this paragraph ...? "Additionally, the code checks input so the system doesn’t have to. Finally, it keeps people from the typos that happen when one modifies JCL prior to submission. This not only ensures that execution is less error free, but it also allows..." /Less error-free/ ?? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Filemanger abend and dynamic allocation
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021, at 23:51, Joseph Reichman wrote: > The only difference using SVC 99 to allocate the file I am able to get > into file manager > With tso ALLOC I blow up That suggests your ALLOC is not coded properly; it might work, but is not creating the same sort of file. This information: > The rexx variables I assign > Are tclib for the template > TCIN for the template member > And filein for the dataset to browse > Then I invoke the following command > Address ispexec > “Select cmd(filemgr $dsv dsnin=‘“ || filein || “ ‘ TCIN=‘“ || tclib || > “(“ || TCIN || “)” is nearly useless (to us) and we cannot see what any of the variables you defined actually contain. Have you tried tracing the exec to make sure that the contents of the "select cmd" are actually what you expect? Is there anything odd about the file names involved? As other people have asked, are the file's characteristics (recfm lrecl etc) identical in the working and failing instances? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Filemanger abend and dynamic allocation
On Thu, 12 Aug 2021, at 20:28, Joseph Reichman wrote: > If the input is multiple files then I allocate the output via ADDRESS TSO > “ALLOC Why? I mean, by all means decide the name of the output file(s) before you build the JCL, but let the JCL allocate it/them. > File manger abends trying to display the output What abend code? Are the batch jobs finished at that point? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Communication between two computer systems (LPARS or physical)
On Tue, 10 Aug 2021, at 14:30, David Spiegel wrote: > Hi Steff, > Have the application which updates the data put out a WTO which triggers > your Automation to schedule Tasks on all other LPARs (e.g. RO *ALL, S > UPDATE). I'd just add: make sure the automation process validates who issued the WTO and also doesn't just take some literal text from the WTO and have that executed as the actual command... since a mechanism like that is likely to get misused. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Coding for the future - REXX quoting
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, at 15:00, Paul Gilmartin wrote: > In TSO, the argument of ADDRESS is case-insensitive; in CMS, case-sensitive. > I understand it's a PSW. Sounds dangerous. PSW? -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: Coding for the future
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, at 02:37, David Crayford wrote:
> On 24/06/2021 9:44 pm, Jeremy Nicoll wrote:
> > On Thu, 24 Jun 2021, at 01:57, David Crayford wrote:
> >
> >> For example, to create and ISPF in Lua you instantiate and ISPF object
> >> and then communicate with it by calling methods
> >> https://lua4z.github.io/Lua4z/modules/ispf.html.
> > That shows eg that you can invoke ispf edit via lua. But can you use lua
> > to tell ispf edit to run a macro (written in lua) and can that macro issue
> > ispf editor commands, and also display ispf panels (eg to find out what
> > the macro should do or display its results) and issue tso commands?
>
> Yes to all. Here's an example. The 'ispf.bind' function uses VDEFINE to
> map ISPF variables to the vars table.
Thanks for the example.
> local ispexec = ispf.ispexec
Is the righthand part of that specifying the ispexec 'method' of an 'ispf'
class (or however lua names such concepts)?
> local isredit = function (cmd) return ispexec("ISREDIT " .. cmd) end
... and that says that in the code below that: isredit returns
whatever ispexec "ISREDIT" || would yield ... which is
presumably (perhaps) an action, and a return code?
> isredit "(LRECL) = LRECL"
> local lrecl = ispf.vcopy("LRECL")
Would that place the current file's lrecl in the ispf variable named
LRECL then copy that value to the lua program's same-named
variable?
If so, this is a lot more like writing an ispf application in assembler
than rexx - it may work, but it's a lot more cumbersome having to
move stuff between one's own local storage and the ispf variable
pools. REXX may well (must?) be doing that under the covers in its
address ispexec (etc) envronments but freeing the programmer
from having to do it makes things easy in REXX.
It also means that the lua code presumably has to do some initial
allocation of memory to hold variables whose maximum length
a REXX programmer needn't worry about -- like your ispf.bind
vdefine-ing "line", as "charbuf" of length lrecl ... which also
shows that you need to specify "charbuf" or "char" or whatever
else makes sense in lua - something else the REXX programmer
needn't think about.
> > How about replacing REXX in eg Netview?
>
> Does Netview support C/C++?
I don't know.
--
Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own.
--
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Re: Coding for the future
On Fri, 25 Jun 2021, at 05:08, Seymour J Metz wrote: > No, by multi-line string I mean a string literal split across multiple > lines of the source code, whether or not it contains CR, LF or NEL. In, > e.g., HLASM you can split a string across multiple lines, although the > syntax is ugly. For those who haven't seen this sort of thing in other languages, here's how it's done in perl and python: https://perlmaven.com/here-documents https://www.w3schools.com/python/gloss_python_multi_line_strings.asp -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
Re: ISPF Edit: Introduce New SUBMIT Module
On Thu, 24 Jun 2021, at 16:38, Seymour J Metz wrote: > Is there an ISRCMDS tables? If so, that's how EDIT recognizes its > command. Are you sure? You're saying that ispf edit presents the panel then doesn't immediately process the command line to parse its own valid commands? Or does it (if such a command table exists) set each internal cmd to ... trying to remember ... "PASSTHRU" is it? Why would it introduce an extra layer of command processing for its own commands? > Also it's valid to specify SELECT PGM(foo) in a command table. That's why I said "or programs" in "other commands (ie clists, rexx execs or tso command processors) or programs " meaning either select cmd() or select pgm(). A lot of people, in my recollection, assumed that select cmd() could not pass control to a load module, whereas it could ... if that was a (tso) command processor. -- Jeremy Nicoll - my opinions are my own. -- For IBM-MAIN subscribe / signoff / archive access instructions, send email to lists...@listserv.ua.edu with the message: INFO IBM-MAIN
